From kristel.vangoethem at uclouvain.be Thu Dec 5 10:02:43 2013 From: kristel.vangoethem at uclouvain.be (Kristel Van Goethem) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 11:02:43 +0100 Subject: Second call for papers: "Category change from a constructional perspective" Deadline 09/12/2013 Message-ID: Second call for papers: “Category change from a constructional perspective” Call deadline: December 9, 2013 Workshop convenors: * Muriel Norde (Humboldt Universität zu Berlin) : muriel.norde at hu-berlin.de * Kristel Van Goethem (F.R.S.-FNRS, Université catholique de Louvain) : kristel.vangoethem at uclouvain.be Workshop discussant: Graeme Trousdale (University of Edinburgh) Call for papers This is a workshop proposal to be submitted to the 8th International Conference on Construction Grammar (ICCG8), which will be held at the University of Osnabrueck, 3-6 September, 2014. If you are interested in participating in this workshop, please send both of us a title by December 9, 2013, so we can submit our proposal (including a provisional list of participants and titles) to the ICCG8 conference organizers. If our proposal is accepted, participants will be invited to submit a full abstract (400 words) by February 1, 2014. Conference website: http://www.blogs.uni-osnabrueck.de/iccg8/ Workshop description Category change, i.e. the shift from one word class to another or from free categories to bound categories, is inherent to many different types of change, yet it is usually not given much consideration. The aim of this workshop, therefore, will be to bring category change itself to the fore, as a phenomenon worthy of study in its own right. Adopting a rather broad definition of “category”, which includes both single words and multi-word units, we will explore how categories change and why some shifts are more frequent than others. In particular, we want to examine whether a constructional perspective enhances our understanding of category change. In our workshop, focus will be on three topics: (i) types of category change, (ii) degrees of gradualness and context-sensitivity, and (iii) directionality. Types of category change Category change may result from different processes. The first process is commonly termed “non-affixal derivation” or “conversion”, as in the following examples from French (Kerleroux 1996) and English (Denison 2010). (1) calmeA ‘calm’ > calmeN ‘calmness’ (2) dailyA newspaper > dailyN The second process is category change determined by a specific syntactic context, or “distorsion catégorielle” (Kerleroux 1996), as in (3), likewise from French: (3) Elle est d’un courageux! ‘(lit. She is of a brave) She is very brave’ However, there is no strict boundary between the processes exemplified in (1-2) and (3), as suggested by cases such as Elle est d’un calme! ‘lit. She is of a calm; She is very calm’. In this example, the nominal use of calme can be accounted for both as conversion and as context-internal category change. Third, category change can be linked to processes of univerbation with structural change (Denison 2010), e.g. the use of English far from as an adverbial downtoner in (4) (De Smet 2012), or the development of the German pronoun neizwer out of a Middle High German sentence (5) (Haspelmath 1997: 131). (4) The life of a “beauty queen” is far from beautiful. (web) (5) ne weiz wer ‘I don´t know who’ > neizwer ‘somebody’ A fourth type is one in which an item shifts category in the wake of the category shift of another item, e.g. the shift of Swedish adverbs in –vis to adjectives when the head of a VP is nominalized: (6) Samhället förandras gradvisADV. ‘Society changes gradually’ (7) Den gradvisaADJ förändringen av samhället. ‘The gradual change of society’ Finally, category change may be part of a grammaticalization change, i.e. “the change whereby lexical items and constructions come in certain linguistic contexts to serve grammatical functions and, once grammaticalized, continue to develop new grammatical functions” (Hopper & Traugott 2003: 18), such as the grammaticalization of English to be going to from main verb to future auxiliary in (8-9). Such gradual grammaticalization processes may account for synchronic gradience (Traugott & Trousdale 2010). (8) I [am going to]MAIN V the train station. (9) I [am going to]AUX be a star. Degrees of gradualness and context-sensitivity The different types of category shift mentioned above can be arranged on a continuum, from abrupt to gradual and from context-independent to context-sensitive. While the A > N conversions in (1-2) are abrupt and context-independent processes, shifts from N > A are often gradual and determined by the syntactic environment, as in the case of keyN > keyA in English (10a) and French (10b) (Amiot & Van Goethem 2012; Denison 2001, 2010; De Smet 2012; Van Goethem & De Smet (forthc.)). (10)a. This is a really key point. b. Ceci est un point vraiment clé. However, similar developments in related languages may be characterized differently, as suggested by a contrastive case study on the adjectival uses of Dutch top and German spitze ‘top’ (Van Goethem & Hüning 2013). The category change in Dutch (11) seems abrupt, but the German (12) spelling of S/spitze and inflection of the preceding adjective/adverb is suggestive of a gradual development. (11)het was (de) absolute topN / het was absoluut topA ‘lit. it was absolute(ly) top’ (12)das war absolute SpitzeN / das war absolute spitzeN/A / das war absolut SpitzeN/A / das war absolut spitzeA ‘lit. it was absolute(ly) top’ Directionality Whereas in earlier work (e.g. Lehmann 1995 [1982], Haspelmath 2004) the view prevailed that only changes from major to minor categories are possible, research on degrammaticalization (Norde 2009) has shown that changes from minor to major word classes, albeit less frequently attested, are possible as well. In addition, specific items have been shown to change categories more than once in the course of their histories, in alternating stages of grammaticalization and degrammaticalization. One example is degrammaticalization of the Dutch numeral suffix -tig ‘-ty’ into an indefinite quantifier meaning “dozens”, followed by grammaticalization into an intensifier meaning “very” (Norde 2006). Another example is the autonomous (adjectival/adverbial) use of Dutch intensifying prefixoids (Booij 2010: 60-61), such as Dutch reuze ‘giant’, which underwent multiple category changes (Van Goethem & Hiligsmann, forthc.; Norde & Van Goethem, in prep.), first from noun to intensifying affixoid (13) (grammaticalization) and later on into an adjective/adverb (14-15) (degrammaticalization): (13)Verder kunnen we reuzegoed met elkaar opschieten ‘Besides we get along very well (lit. giant-well)’ (COW2012) (14)Ik zou het gewoon weg reuze vinden als je eens langs kwam. ‘I really think it would be great (lit. giant) if you came by once.’ (COW 2012) (15)Reuze bedankt! ‘Thanks a lot’ Finally, category shift may be “non-directional”, in the sense that the input and output categories are of the same level, e.g. in shifts from one major word class to the other (examples (1-2)), or the transference of nominal case markers to verbal tense – aspect markers, such as the shift, in Kala Lagau Ya, from dative marker –pa to (verbal) completive marker (Blake 2001; examples (16-17)). (16)Nuy ay-pa amal-pa he food-dat mother-dat ‘He [went] for food for mother’ (17)Ngoeba uzar-am-pa 1dual.inclusive go-dual.incompletive ‘We two will go (are endeavouring to go)’ The constructional perspective The central aim of the workshop will be to investigate whether category change can be explained more accurately by analyzing it as an instance of “constructionalization” (Bergs & Diewald 2008; Traugott & Trousdale 2013 (forthc.)), which involves “a sequence of changes in the form and meaning poles of a construction, whereby new formal configurations come to serve particular functions, and to encode new meanings” (Trousdale & Norde 2013: 36). In this workshop, we welcome both theoretically and empirically oriented papers that account for category change from a constructional perspective. Research questions include, but are not limited to, the following: 1: What is the status of category change in a diachronic construction grammar framework (e.g. Traugott & Trousdale 2013) and how can the different types outlined above be accounted for? Are categories grammatical primitives, or the epiphenomenal result of constructions in the sense of Croft 2001? 2: How can the notions of gradualness and context-sensitivity be modelled in a constructional framework? Does the gradualness of some category shifts imply that categories synchronically form a “continuous spectrum” (Langacker 1987: 18) or does it merely mean that a given item may belong to two or more categories whereas “the categories in question can nevertheless be clearly delimited” (Aarts 2007: 242)? 3: Is category change a change in form which together with a change in meaning constitutes a constructionalization change and if so, is it the shift itself or changes in morphosyntactic properties (e.g. decategorialization) that are associated with it? 4: How does the distinction between lexical and grammatical constructionalization link in to the different types of category change (abrupt vs gradual, morphological vs syntactic, context-independent vs context-sensitive, word-level vs construction-level)? 5: Which role can be assigned to the notion of “category” in constructional networks? References Aarts, B. 2007. Syntactic Gradience. The Nature of Grammatical Indeterminacy. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Amiot, D. & K. Van Goethem 2012. A constructional account of French -clé 'key' and Dutch sleutel- 'key' as in mot-clé / sleutelwoord 'keyword'. Morphology 22. 347-364. Bergs, A. & G. Diewald (Eds). 2008. Constructions and Language Change. Berlin / New York: Mouton de Gruyter. Booij, G. 2010. Construction Morphology. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Blake, B. J. 2001. Case. Second edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. COW (Corpora from the web) http://hpsg.fu-berlin.de/cow/colibri/ [ Schäfer, R. & F. Bildhauer. 2012. Building large corpora from the web using a new effcient tool chain. In N. Calzolari et al. (eds), Proceedings of the Eight International Conference on Language Resources and Evaluation, Istanbul, ELRA, 486–493.] Croft, W. 2001. Radical Construction Grammar. Syntactic theory in typological perspective. Oxford: Oxford University Press. De Smet, H. 2012. The course of actualization. Language 88.3. 601-633. Denison, D. 2001. Gradience and linguistic change. In L. J. Brinton (ed.), Historical linguistics 1999: Selected papers from the 14th International Conference on Historical Linguistics, Vancouver, 9-13 August 1999 (Current Issues in Linguistic Theory 215), 119-44. Amsterdam / Philadelphia: John Benjamins. Denison, D. 2010. Category change in English with and without structural change. In E.C. Traugott & G. Trousdale (eds), Gradience, gradualness and grammaticalization (Typological Studies in Language 90), 105-128. Amsterdam: John Benjamins. Haspelmath, M. 1997. Indefinite pronouns. Oxford : Oxford University Press. Haspelmath, M. 2004. On directionality in language change with particular reference to grammaticalization. In O. Fischer, M. Norde & H. Perridon (eds) Up and down the cline ¾ the nature of grammaticalization, 17-44. Amsterdam / Philadelphia: John Benjamins. Hopper, P. J. & E. C. Traugott. 2003. Grammaticalization. Second edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Kerleroux, F. 1996. La coupure invisible. Études de syntaxe et de morphologie. Villeneuve d’Ascq: Presses Universitaires du Septentrion. Langacker, R.W. 1987. Foundations of Cognitive Grammar I : Theoretical Prerequisites. Stanford CA : Stanford University Press. Lehmann, Chr. 1995 [1982]. Thoughts on grammaticalization. Munich: Lincom Europa. Norde, M. 2006. Van suffix tot telwoord tot bijwoord: degrammaticalisering en (re)grammaticalisering van tig. Tabu 35. 33-60. Norde, M. 2009. Degrammaticalization. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Norde, M. & K. Van Goethem. in prep. Emancipatie van affixen en affixoïden: degrammaticalisatie of lexicalisatie? Submitted. Traugott, E.C. & G. Trousdale. 2010. Gradience, Gradualness and Grammaticalization. Amsterdam / Philadelphia: John Benjamins. Traugott, E. C. & G. Trousdale. 2013 (Forthc.). Constructionalization and Constructional Changes. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Trousdale G. & M. Norde. 2013. Degrammaticalization and constructionalization: two case studies. Language Sciences 36. 32-46. Van Goethem, K. & H. De Smet. Forthc. How nouns turn into adjectives. The emergence of new adjectives in French, English and Dutch through debonding processes. Languages in Contrast. Van Goethem, K. & Ph. Hiligsmann. Forthc. When two paths converge: debonding and clipping of Dutch reuze ‘giant; great’. Journal of Germanic Linguistics. Van Goethem, K. & M. Hüning. 2013. Debonding of Dutch and German compounds. Paper presented at the Germanic Sandwich Conference, Leuven, Jan. 2013. Kristel Van Goethem Chercheuse qualifiée F.R.S.-FNRS Université catholique de Louvain Institut Langage et Communication/Pôle Linguistique Collège Erasme Place Blaise Pascal 1, bte L3.03.33 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve bureau c.383 Tél. (0032) 10 47 48 42 kristel.vangoethem at uclouvain.be http://uclouvain.academia.edu/KVanGoethem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From luraghi at unipv.it Mon Dec 9 10:21:44 2013 From: luraghi at unipv.it (Silvia Luraghi) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:21:44 +0100 Subject: Call for papers - Syntax of the World's Languages VI - Reminder Message-ID: *** Apologies for cross-posting *** The sixth `Syntax of the World's Languages' conference (SWL6) will be held at the University of Pavia, Italy, on 8-10 September 2014. In the same spirit as previous conferences in this series (SWL I - Leipzig 2004, SWL II - Lancaster 2006, SWL III - Berlin 2008, SWL IV - Lyon 2010, and SWL V - Dubrovnik 2012), the conference will provide a forum for linguists working on the syntax of less widely studied languages from a variety of perspectives. The main purpose of the conference is to enlarge our knowledge and understanding of syntactic diversity. Contributions are expected to be based on first-hand data of individual languages or to adopt a broadly comparative perspective. The discussion of theoretical issues is appreciated to the extent that it helps to elucidate the data and is understandable without prior knowledge of the relevant theory. All theoretical frameworks are equally welcome, and papers that adopt a diachronic or comparative perspective are also welcome, as are papers dealing with morphological or semantic issues, as long as syntactic issues also play a major role. Abstracts of no more than one page (plus possibly one additional page for examples), should be sent in PDF format to swl6.conference at gmail.com by January 31st, 2014, with ''SWL6 abstract'' in the subject line (authors will receive notification of acceptance by March 31st, 2014). Submissions should be anonymous and refrain from self-reference. Please provide contact details (name and email address) and the title of your presentation in the body of the email. Participants may not be involved in more than two abstracts, of which at most one may be single-authored. The conference will be held in English and abstracts must be submitted in English. For further information, please visit the conference website at: http://swl-6.wikidot.com/ [] -- Silvia Luraghi Università di Pavia Dipartimento di Studi Umanistici, Sezione di Linguistica Teorica e Applicata Strada Nuova 65 I-27100 Pavia tel.: +39/0382/984685 Web page personale: http://lettere.unipv.it/diplinguistica/docenti.php?&id=68 Silvia Luraghi Dipartimento di Studi Umanistici, Sezione di Linguistica Università di Pavia Strada Nuova 65 I-27100 Pavia telef.: +39-0382-984685 fax: +39-0382-984487 silvia.luraghi at unipv.it http://lettere.unipv.it/diplinguistica/docenti.php?&id=68 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From luraghi at unipv.it Mon Dec 9 10:25:20 2013 From: luraghi at unipv.it (Silvia Luraghi) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:25:20 +0100 Subject: The Pavia Indo-European Phonological Inventory Database Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I'm glad to announce the recent publication of the Pavia Indo-European Phonological Inventory Database. You can access it at the address: http://studiumanistici.unipv.it/diplinguistica/pagina.php?id=294 Comments are welcome! Silvia Luraghi Dipartimento di Studi Umanistici, Sezione di Linguistica Università di Pavia Strada Nuova 65 I-27100 Pavia telef.: +39-0382-984685 fax: +39-0382-984487 silvia.luraghi at unipv.it http://lettere.unipv.it/diplinguistica/docenti.php?&id=68 _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From micennam at unina.it Wed Dec 11 08:34:14 2013 From: micennam at unina.it (Michela Cennamo) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:34:14 +0100 Subject: Call fo papers for a Workshop Message-ID: Dear Sir, I am a lecturer in Linguistics from Naples University. My name is Michela Cennamo. I am writing to ask you to post on the list the call for papers for a workshop on Voice Systems in Diachrony: a Comparative Perspective, to be held as an adjacent workshop in Pavia, on 11 September 2014, in connection with the SWL6. I enclose the link to the workshop as well as a file with the description of the meeting and the call for papers. http://voice-systems-workshop.wikidot.com/ I thank you for your attention best regards Michela Cennamo ___________________________________ Dept of Arts & Humanities University of Naples Federico II micennam at unina.it -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Voice systems in diachrony-08-12-2013call for papers.doc .doc Type: application/msword Size: 49152 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From kariri at gmail.com Sat Dec 14 06:09:15 2013 From: kariri at gmail.com (Eduardo Ribeiro) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases Message-ID: [apologies for cross-posting] Dear colleagues, I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. (Jespersen 1912:87-88). Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage? I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this topic. Obrigado, Eduardo -- Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From peter.e.hook at gmail.com Sat Dec 14 11:52:38 2013 From: peter.e.hook at gmail.com (Peter Hook) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:52:38 +0900 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Eduardo, There has been copious borrowing of complex noun phrases from Persian into Urdu and Hindi. The phrases are not fixed but they are almost always built using just Persian nouns. All the best, Peter Hook On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Eduardo Ribeiro wrote: > [apologies for cross-posting] > > Dear colleagues, > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > ended up becoming the default usage? > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this topic. > > Obrigado, > > Eduardo > > > -- > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From george.walkden at gmail.com Sat Dec 14 13:10:43 2013 From: george.walkden at gmail.com (George Walkden) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:10:43 +0000 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Eduardo, On the last point - borrowed order becoming default - you may be interested in Ruth King's work on preposition stranding in Prince Edward Island French. King argues that this variety borrowed a bunch of strandable English prepositions, and that the ability to be stranded was only later extended to native prepositions as well, in examples like "Le gars que je te parle de". There's a brief discussion of this work at < http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000032.html>, and the book can be found at < http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Lexical_Basis_of_Grammatical_Borrowi.html?id=7g7VcyrlirwC&redir_esc=y >. Best, - George On Saturday, 14 December 2013, Peter Hook wrote: > Hi Eduardo, > > There has been copious borrowing of complex noun phrases from Persian into > Urdu and Hindi. The phrases are not fixed but they are almost always built > using just Persian nouns. > > All the best, Peter Hook > > > On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Eduardo Ribeiro > > wrote: > >> [apologies for cross-posting] >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases >> present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more >> common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal >> terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original >> Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >> (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >> >> Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases >> in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, >> ended up becoming the default usage? >> >> I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this >> topic. >> >> Obrigado, >> >> Eduardo >> >> >> -- >> Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista >> http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > 'Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu');> >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From lachicadelgorro at hotmail.com Sat Dec 14 20:59:23 2013 From: lachicadelgorro at hotmail.com (Koka) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:59:23 +0100 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Eduardo, A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé nada") in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here (https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). Hope it helps! Carlota > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > From: kariri at gmail.com > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > [apologies for cross-posting] > > Dear colleagues, > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > ended up becoming the default usage? > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this topic. > > Obrigado, > > Eduardo > > > -- > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From Bernd.Heine at uni-koeln.de Sat Dec 14 22:59:43 2013 From: Bernd.Heine at uni-koeln.de (Bernd Heine) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 23:59:43 +0100 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Eduardo, Here are more observations on your two questions. There is a wide range of data on your first question, namely the "borrowing" (or replicating as I would say) of a phrasal word order, see the paper attached: It is widely attested and hence fairly uncontroversial, even if the enitre range of motivations triggering this change is still not really clear. There is less conclusive evidence on your second question, namely whether, or how a replicated pattern expands, and eventually becomes the new default word order. The case of Guernésiais, the Norman dialect of Guernsey Island, may offer some clues to that (Heine 2008: 55-6; Jones 2002: 156; see the paper attached for these references). For good reasons, this case is actually opposite to the one you mention in that a pattern of post-nominal modification may gradually be replaced by pre-nominal modification as a result of language contact. With best wishes, Bernd Am 14.12.2013 21:59, schrieb Koka: > Dear Eduardo, > > A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé > nada") in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to > Latin influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here > (https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > > > Hope it helps! > > Carlota > > > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > From: kariri at gmail.com > > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > [apologies for cross-posting] > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > ended up becoming the default usage? > > > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > topic. > > > > Obrigado, > > > > Eduardo > > > > > > -- > > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -- Bernd Heine FBA Professor Emeritus Nonnenwerthstr. 48 D-50937 Köln, GERMANY Phone/Fax: +49 221 46 46 09 E-Mail:bernd.heine at uni-koeln.de Web:www.prof-bernd-heine.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Word order change(1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 322758 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From peter.e.hook at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 05:03:43 2013 From: peter.e.hook at gmail.com (Peter Hook) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:03:43 +0900 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases Message-ID: Hi Eduardo, An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the writer is from]: www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! Cheers, Peter Hook On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > Dear Eduardo, > > A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé nada") > in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > > > Hope it helps! > > Carlota > > > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > From: kariri at gmail.com > > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > > [apologies for cross-posting] > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > ended up becoming the default usage? > > > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > topic. > > > > Obrigado, > > > > Eduardo > > > > > > -- > > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From Maj-Britt.MosegaardHansen at manchester.ac.uk Sun Dec 15 08:49:45 2013 From: Maj-Britt.MosegaardHansen at manchester.ac.uk (Maj-Britt Mosegaard Hansen) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 08:49:45 +0000 Subject: FW: Funding for postgraduate research - University of Manchester In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ________________________________ The Department of Linguistics and English Language at the University of Manchester, UK, invites applications from outstanding students for 2014-15 entry (start September 2014) for the following degree programmes: - PhD in English Language (3 years) - PhD in Linguistics (3 years) - 1+3 (MA + PhD) programme in Linguistics / English Language (4 years) High-ranking applications will be eligible for a range of competitive scholarships. 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Areas of expertise include phonetics and phonology, morphology, syntax (lexical-functional grammar, role and reference grammar, construction grammar, and minimalism), (formal) semantics, pragmatics, historical linguistics, dialectology, language contact, variational sociolinguistics, first language acquisition, field linguistics and language documentation, typology, and quantitative corpus-based approaches. In their research, members of the department combine the advancement of theoretical approaches with a strong concern for their empirical and methodological foundations. For more information about the research interests of individual members of staff and current postgraduate students, please visit http://www.alc.manchester.ac.uk/subjects/lel/. Note that we cannot normally supervise projects with a primary focus on second language teaching and learning. PhD students in Linguistics and English Language are part of the diverse and dynamic postgraduate community in the new Graduate School of the School of Arts, Languages and Cultures, and an outstanding and collegial research environment in the department. Students enjoy access to excellent library and IT resources and training provision which also includes the possibility of accessing training and facilities at the partner institutions, Lancaster University and Liverpool University. PhD Funding is available from the following sources – follow the links for further information: The President's Doctoral Scholar (PDS) Competition Eligibility: students of all nationalities and research areas starting in September 2013. The Award covers tuition fees (home/EU or international, as appropriate) and the equivalent of the research council stipend (£13,726 in 2013-14). Apply for a place on the PhD programme by Friday 31 January 2014. Apply for the PDS award by Friday 21 February 2014. Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) Competition Eligibility: UK and EU students intending to take a PhD degree (+3) or an MA followed by a PhD (1+3) in an area related to the Social Sciences (including some subfields of linguistics). The award covers tuition fees and an annual maintenance stipend of £13,863 for UK residents and EU nationals who have lived in the UK for three years, and tuition fees only for EU residents. Apply for a place on the PhD programme by Friday 17 January 2014. Apply for the ESRC award by Monday 3 February 2014. The University of Manchester is a member of the ESRC's North West Doctoral Training College (DTC), which receives the largest number of ESRC PhD studentships in England. Arts and Humanities Research Council (AHRC) Competition Eligibility: UK and EU students intending to take a PhD degree (3 years) or an MA followed by a PhD (1+3) in an area of Arts and Humanities (including linguistics). The award covers tuition fees and an annual maintenance stipend of £13,863 for UK residents and EU nationals who have lived in the UK for three years, and tuition fees only for EU residents. Apply for a place on the PhD programme by Friday 31 January 2014. Apply for the AHRC award by 5pm on Friday 21 February 2014. Applicants will be notified of the outcome of their application by 14th April 2014. The University of Manchester is a member of the AHRC-funded North West Consortium Doctoral Training Partnership (NWCDTP). In addition to the above awards, the School offers a number of Graduate Scholarships. These School awards are open to both Home/EU and Overseas students, and often come with the opportunity to teach or assist in research-related activities. Additional information about the application process for these awards will be found und [Highlight] er http://www.alc.manchester.ac.uk/fees/postgraduate-research-funding/. Informal inquiries about potential research topics and the academic side of the application process can be directed to the department’s Postgraduate Research Programme director, Prof Eva Schultze-Berndt (Eva.Schultze-Berndt at manchester.ac.uk). For questions about the administrative side of the application process, please contact Phdsalc at manchester.ac.uk. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From j.t.faarlund at iln.uio.no Sun Dec 15 10:04:41 2013 From: j.t.faarlund at iln.uio.no (Jan Terje Faarlund) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:04:41 +0100 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On a slightly different level: Scandinavian, being VO languages, have passive participles followed by an agent PP, as in English /The bill is passed by Parliament/. If a participle, as an adjective, is used to modify a noun it will precede the noun, still as in English, or follow the noun if it is followed by a PP: /A bill passed by Parliament/. However, in a certain bureaucratic style, the PP may precede the participle, which again precedes the noun: /En av Stortinget vedtatt lov/ 'a by Parliament passed bill'. This pattern is obviously borrowed from German (an OV language), and it occurs in writing only. Best, Jan Terje ---- Professor Jan Terje Faarlund Centre for the Study of Mind in Nature University of Oslo Mailing address: CSMN P.O. Box 1020 Blindern NO-0315 Oslo Norway Tel. (+47) 22 85 69 49 (office) (+47) 47 82 80 01 (mobile) > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) > phrases > > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the > original > > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > ended up becoming the default usage? > > > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on > this topic. > > > > Obrigado, > > > > Eduardo > > > > > > -- > > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From hopper at cmu.edu Sun Dec 15 12:46:42 2013 From: hopper at cmu.edu (Paul Hopper) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928. les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? Paul > Hi Eduardo, > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the > writer is from]: > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine il > y > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > Cheers, > > Peter Hook > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > >> Dear Eduardo, >> >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé >> nada") >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >> >> >> Hope it helps! >> >> Carlota >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >> >> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >> > >> > Dear colleagues, >> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, >> > ended up becoming the default usage? >> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this >> topic. >> > >> > Obrigado, >> > >> > Eduardo >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Histling-l mailing list >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > -- Paul J. Hopper, Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, University of Pittsburgh Senior External Fellow, School of Linguistics and Literature, Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany Publications: Message-ID: Apologies: I just replied to this message to the wrong list. That time of the year I suppose. Don't know how it happened. Here is the proper reply to the right list: One might note that preposition stranding isn't typical (though I have been told by a distinguished native speaking syntactician that it can occur in Dutch) of the Germanic languages with OV order in prepositional phrases (i.e. Continental West Germanic), but of those with VO, which means essentially English and North Germanic. Syntactic borrowing from any of the Germanic languages where stranding is characteristic seems odd in Parisian French, where there is no contact situation of the type that would conduce to syntactic borrowing. Unless one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas). I'm not a Romanist but considering the increasing isolation of Anglo-French from Continental French during the Middle Ages, any transfer from English would seem very peculiar. North Germanic is out of the question of course. RL -----Original Message----- From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hopper Sent: 15 December 2013 02:47 PM To: Peter Hook Cc: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; lista Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928. les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? Paul > Hi Eduardo, > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where > the writer is from]: > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine > il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > Cheers, > > Peter Hook > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > >> Dear Eduardo, >> >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé >> nada") >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informat iva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >> >> >> Hope it helps! >> >> Carlota >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >> > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >> >> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >> > >> > Dear colleagues, >> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >> > phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a >> > more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, >> > legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >> > original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >> > cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >> > lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage? >> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >> > this >> topic. >> > >> > Obrigado, >> > >> > Eduardo >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Histling-l mailing list >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > -- Paul J. Hopper, Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, University of Pittsburgh Senior External Fellow, School of Linguistics and Literature, Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany Publications: Message-ID: One more apology. Bad day. In opening sentence read 'subordinate clauses' for 'prepositional phrases'. Those of you who know me might suspect I do know the difference. RL -----Original Message----- From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Lass Sent: 15 December 2013 03:23 PM To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases Apologies: I just replied to this message to the wrong list. That time of the year I suppose. Don't know how it happened. Here is the proper reply to the right list: One might note that preposition stranding isn't typical (though I have been told by a distinguished native speaking syntactician that it can occur in Dutch) of the Germanic languages with OV order in prepositional phrases (i.e. Continental West Germanic), but of those with VO, which means essentially English and North Germanic. Syntactic borrowing from any of the Germanic languages where stranding is characteristic seems odd in Parisian French, where there is no contact situation of the type that would conduce to syntactic borrowing. Unless one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas). I'm not a Romanist but considering the increasing isolation of Anglo-French from Continental French during the Middle Ages, any transfer from English would seem very peculiar. North Germanic is out of the question of course. RL -----Original Message----- From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hopper Sent: 15 December 2013 02:47 PM To: Peter Hook Cc: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; lista Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928. les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? Paul > Hi Eduardo, > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where > the writer is from]: > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine > il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > Cheers, > > Peter Hook > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > >> Dear Eduardo, >> >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé >> nada") >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informat iva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >> >> >> Hope it helps! >> >> Carlota >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >> > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >> >> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >> > >> > Dear colleagues, >> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >> > phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a >> > more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, >> > legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >> > original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >> > cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >> > lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage? >> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >> > this >> topic. >> > >> > Obrigado, >> > >> > Eduardo >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Histling-l mailing list >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > -- Paul J. Hopper, Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, University of Pittsburgh Senior External Fellow, School of Linguistics and Literature, Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany Publications: Message-ID: Peter Hook, Eduardo: Background: I am an older speaker of European French, living in Eastern Canada (mostly in an English-speaking environment but also in contact with local French). My impression is that European French is nowadays very much influenced by *written* English (as seen in newspaper articles, etc hastily translated from American ones), while Canadian French has long been influenced by *spoken* North American English, which Canadian francophones hear (and often speak) a lot of. Your example: "Il y en avait assez pour faire une tarte AVEC" 'There was enough to make a pie WITH' This seems to be a calque of spoken English structure, so probably from Canada. I would probably say "Il y en avait assez pour faire une tarte" 'There was enough to make a pie' (no preposition) or more idiomatically "Il en restait DE quoi faire une tarte" 'There was enough left to make a pie'. (Note preposition DE, not AVEC) Nevertheless I don't find the sentence totally strange because AVEC (unlike other prepositions) can occur at the end of a sentence, but in places where English would not place a preposition alone: Example: - Il reste beaucoup de pâte. Qu'est-ce qu'on fait AVEC? 'There's a lot of dough left. What do we do WITH IT?' (- On pourrait faire une tarte. 'We could make a pie.'). Note the contrast with - Qu'est-ce qu'on fait AVEC ÇA? 'What do you/we do WITH THIS?' An unrelated example with WITH: In some parts of Canada with a large population of German origin, people say: - Are you coming WITH? (not "... WITH ME/US") 'Are you coming along?' a calque of German - Kommst du MIT? (verb mit(-)kommen) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:03:43 +0900 From: peter.e.hook at gmail.com To: kariri at gmail.com CC: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases Hi Eduardo, An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the writer is from]: www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authorsMmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine il y en avait assez pour faire une tarte avec ! Cheers, Peter Hook On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: Dear Eduardo, A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé nada") in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here (https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). Hope it helps! Carlota > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > From: kariri at gmail.com > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > [apologies for cross-posting] > > Dear colleagues, > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > ended up becoming the default usage? > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this topic. > > Obrigado, > > Eduardo > > > -- > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From goldenratio at earthlink.net Sun Dec 15 14:08:01 2013 From: goldenratio at earthlink.net (Jess Tauber) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 09:08:01 -0500 Subject: Bantu issues Message-ID: Does anyone know of any detailed studies of phonosemantics in Bantu languages? I've been using a new method involving statistics mapping forms against meanings in particular semantic domains, and patterns are jumping out as fast as I can work, but I want to see what others have written. I'm also looking at root extensions, the less productive ones like -ama- 'positional' rather than the voice-related forms. Anyone looking at these from a systemic perspective? I'm getting the sense that they are more of a posture-based set that dovetails with notions of rank, dominance, etc. For ex. the aforementioned -ama- in dictionaries I'm consulting far more often than not associates with slanting, leaning, stooping where the upper part of some entity has lateral play while its lower part does not, thus able to affect other entities within reach. Anyway, just asking. Please contact me at goldenratio at earthlink dot net. Thanks much. Best wishes to all for a safe and happy holiday season, Jess Tauber _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From mltarpent at hotmail.com Sun Dec 15 15:59:37 2013 From: mltarpent at hotmail.com (Marie-Lucie Tarpent) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:59:37 -0400 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Paul Hopper: About Bauche's examples: (1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he slept with) This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" is not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couché", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in writing. (2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him' Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I ran after him/her', "j'ai couru après lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. (3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it' A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): so perhaps a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA. ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for THAT' b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.' c) - ... ÇA... - T'as pas travaillé pour. (omitting the topic, which was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. As for the next and most recent example: (4) j'y suis pour it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite could be true). marie-lucie > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > From: hopper at cmu.edu > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: Payot, > 1928. > > les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” > je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” > tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > Paul > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the > > writer is from]: > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine il > > y > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > Cheers, > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > >> > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé > >> nada") > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > >> > >> > >> Hope it helps! > >> > >> Carlota > >> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > >> > >> > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > >> > > >> > Dear colleagues, > >> > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > >> > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > >> > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > >> topic. > >> > > >> > Obrigado, > >> > > >> > Eduardo > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Histling-l mailing list > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Histling-l mailing list > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > -- > Paul J. Hopper, > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > Department of English, > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > Carnegie Mellon University, > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > University of Pittsburgh > > Senior External Fellow, > School of Linguistics and Literature, > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > Publications: > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From geoffnathan at wayne.edu Sun Dec 15 16:17:26 2013 From: geoffnathan at wayne.edu (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:17:26 -0500 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years ago, let me clarify. We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..) asked the waiter: Si je peux vous poser une question? The waiter replied: Je suis là pour. I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French (français avancé as they like to say...) Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marie-Lucie Tarpent" > To: hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > Paul Hopper: > About Bauche's examples: > (1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... > that he slept with) > This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used > as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than > Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a > couché" is not only much more difficult to use (because of the > gender/number agreement) but similar in tone and register to English > "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque of French). An > intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couché", common > in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in > writing. > (2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him' > Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French > sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' > or 'I (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a > relationship)("lui" as an oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the > same for both genders). For 'I ran after him/her', "j'ai couru après > lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted as above, although > possibly so depending on the context. > (3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it' > A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to > use "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much > earlier). "T'as pas travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am > not familiar with this usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the > usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): so perhaps > a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA. ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't > work for THAT' > b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour. 'THAT is not what you worked > for.' > c) - ... ÇA... - T'as pas travaillé pour. (omitting the topic, which > was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' > The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= > uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is > more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. > As for the next and most recent example: > (4) j'y suis pour > it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most > likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am > here for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular > structure. (Or the opposite could be true). > marie-lucie > > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > > From: hopper at cmu.edu > > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage > > populaire. > > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le > > parle > > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: > > Payot, > > 1928. > > > > les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” > > je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” > > tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" > > > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a > > waiter as > > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of > > > where the > > > writer is from]: > > > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la > > > semaine il > > > y > > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > > >> > > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No > > >> sé > > >> nada") > > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to > > >> Latin > > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > > >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > > >> > > >> > > >> Hope it helps! > > >> > > >> Carlota > > >> > > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; > > >> > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > >> > > >> > > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > > >> > > > >> > Dear colleagues, > > >> > > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) > > >> > phrases > > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a > > >> > more > > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, > > >> > legal > > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the > > >> > original > > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > >> > > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of > > >> > cases > > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed > > >> > lexemes, > > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > > >> > > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references > > >> > on this > > >> topic. > > >> > > > >> > Obrigado, > > >> > > > >> > Eduardo > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Histling-l mailing list > > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Histling-l mailing list > > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Histling-l mailing list > > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul J. Hopper, > > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > > Department of English, > > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > > Carnegie Mellon University, > > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > > University of Pittsburgh > > > > Senior External Fellow, > > School of Linguistics and Literature, > > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > > > Publications: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From george.walkden at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 17:08:10 2013 From: george.walkden at gmail.com (George Walkden) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 17:08:10 +0000 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: <145978352.6149784.1387124246808.JavaMail.root@wayne.edu> Message-ID: Dear all, In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a paper arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not due to contact - with several responses. Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps not normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here. - George On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: > As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years ago, let me clarify. > > We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..) asked the waiter: > > Si je peux vous poser une question? > > The waiter replied: > > Je suis là pour. > > I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French (français avancé as they like to say...) > > Geoff > > Geoffrey S. Nathan > Faculty Liaison, C&IT > and Professor, Linguistics Program > http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) > > Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. > > > From: "Marie-Lucie Tarpent" > To: hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > Paul Hopper: > > About Bauche's examples: > > (1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he slept with) > > This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" is not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couché", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in writing. > > (2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him' > > Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I ran after him/her', "j'ai couru après lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. > > (3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it' > > A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): so perhaps > a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA. ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for THAT' > b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.' > c) - ... ÇA... - T'as pas travaillé pour. (omitting the topic, which was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' > > The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. > > As for the next and most recent example: > > (4) j'y suis pour > > it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite could be true). > > marie-lucie > > > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > > From: hopper at cmu.edu > > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle > > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: Payot, > > 1928. > > > > les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” > > je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” > > tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" > > > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the > > > writer is from]: > > > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine il > > > y > > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > > >> > > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé > > >> nada") > > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > > >>https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > > >> > > >> > > >> Hope it helps! > > >> > > >> Carlota > > >> > > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > >> > > >> > > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > > >> > > > >> > Dear colleagues, > > >> > > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > >> > > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > > >> > > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > > >> topic. > > >> > > > >> > Obrigado, > > >> > > > >> > Eduardo > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Histling-l mailing list > > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Histling-l mailing list > > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Histling-l mailing list > > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul J. Hopper, > > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > > Department of English, > > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > > Carnegie Mellon University, > > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > > University of Pittsburgh > > > > Senior External Fellow, > > School of Linguistics and Literature, > > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > > > Publications: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From thomason at umich.edu Sun Dec 15 17:18:21 2013 From: thomason at umich.edu (Sarah Thomason) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 09:18:21 -0800 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: <6E76C825-045D-4998-82B5-01E5696D417A@gmail.com> Message-ID: But that paper in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition is written by people who don't believe that change in frequency is change. It's a very odd belief, and it would rule out any change from a more restricted set of environments to a "default" status -- for those authors such a change wouldn't count as any kind of change, no matter how contact-induced it was. -- Sally Thomason On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:08 AM, George Walkden wrote: > Dear all, > > In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a paper > arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not due to > contact - with several responses. > > < > https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02 > > > > Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps not > normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The > issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here. > > - George > > > On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: > > As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several > years ago, let me clarify. > > We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France > about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know > her..) asked the waiter: > > Si je peux vous poser une question? > > The waiter replied: > > Je suis là pour. > > I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and > Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around > here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary > French (français avancé as they like to say...) > > Geoff > > Geoffrey S. Nathan > Faculty Liaison, C&IT > and Professor, Linguistics Program > http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) > > Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it > to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. > > > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" > *To: *hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > *Sent: *Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM > *Subject: *Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > Paul Hopper: > > About Bauche's examples: > > (1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that > he slept with) > > This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a > single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The > formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" is not only much > more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar > in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a > calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a > couché", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, > especially in writing. > > (2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him' > > Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French > sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I > (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an > oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I > ran after him/her', "j'ai couru après lui/elle" would be less likely to be > interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. > > (3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it' > > A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne > ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas > travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage > of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in > (1)): so perhaps > a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA. ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't work > for THAT' > b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour. 'THAT is not what you worked > for.' > c) - ... ÇA... - T'as pas travaillé pour. (omitting the topic, which was > mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' > > The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= > uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more > likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. > > As for the next and most recent example: > > (4) j'y suis pour > > it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most > likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here > for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or > the opposite could be true). > > marie-lucie > > > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > > From: hopper at cmu.edu > > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle > > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: > Payot, > > 1928. > > > > les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” > > je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” > > tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" > > > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where > the > > > writer is from]: > > > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine > il > > > y > > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > > >> > > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé > > >> nada") > > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > > >> > https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_ > ). > > >> > > >> > > >> Hope it helps! > > >> > > >> Carlota > > >> > > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > ; > > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > >> > > >> > > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > > >> > > > >> > Dear colleagues, > > >> > > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) > phrases > > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the > original > > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > >> > > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > > >> > > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > > >> topic. > > >> > > > >> > Obrigado, > > >> > > > >> > Eduardo > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Histling-l mailing list > > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Histling-l mailing list > > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Histling-l mailing list > > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul J. Hopper, > > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > > Department of English, > > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > > Carnegie Mellon University, > > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > > University of Pittsburgh > > > > Senior External Fellow, > > School of Linguistics and Literature, > > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > > > Publications: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From paoram at unipv.it Sun Dec 15 18:21:18 2013 From: paoram at unipv.it (Paolo Ramat) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 19:21:18 +0100 Subject: FW: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: <000401cef99c$0db73d10$2925b730$@iafrica.com> Message-ID: Very interesting discussion! Point 1.: "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for" (Paul Hopper, 15 XII '13). Impossible in Italian:**Io sono per (perhaps acceptable: ??'Io sono pro', as answer to a question such as 'Sei pro o contro/contra ?', whereby *pro* is not an Ital. preposition, but a latinism -as *contra* !) Point 2.: I think Roger Lass is right when he writes (15 XII '13) "Unless one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas)." The postposition of *avec* is quite usual in Mod. colloquial French, not only in Canada, and it is plausible that "[t]he origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out r e c e n t [my emphasis] calques from English, and is more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax"(M.-L. Tarpent; cp. Hopper: "This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject). As a metter of fact, we find already in mdiaeval French *Dont m'en porteras tu avoec * 'Alors tu m'emportera avec' (Le jeu de St. Nicolas , Jehan Bodel 1201), not possible in Ital.: **"Allora tu mi porterai con". The so-called Preposition stranding (1) is rare in Italian: 'je lui ai couru après' “I ran after him”(ex. of P.Hopper) = Ital. "gli sono corso dietro" is OK, but not **"tu non hai lavorato per" as transl. of 'tu n’as pas travaillé pour' "You didn't work for it". Already OFr. "...qu'otot le cheval l'a mis jus" ( Partenopeu de Blois), lit. ...that all the horse has put down, i.e. "...qu'il l'a abattu avec son cheval" . This could hardly be translated into Italian with "...che lo ha buttato giù col suo cavallo". The 'preposition stranding' (not only of *avec*!: see *après*, etc.) could be another example of Germanic influence on French and other Rom. languages (see, e.g. ON. Eirikr hinn Raidhi 'Erik the Red' , OHG. kuningin thia richun (Otfr. I 3.31)'the mighty queen', Lorenzo il Magnifico, and Karl der Grosse vs. the Romance type Charlemagne: but this is another story which, however, could be an answer to Eduardo's question concerning borrowed word orders compared to a more common, inherited type). (1) Properly speaking, *avec* (< Lat. apud hoc) is not a preposition but an adverbial which can occur with a verb (e.g. je viens avec), as well as with a noun -assuming in this second case the function of a PREP: avec mon couteau (?? mon couteau avec) 'with my knife'. Best season's greetings to anyone of the histling! Paolo Ramat Prof.Paolo Ramat Università di Pavia Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) -----Messaggio originale----- From: Roger Lass Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:46 PM To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Subject: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases -----Original Message (restaured) ----- From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Lass Sent: 15 December 2013 03:23 PM To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases One might note that preposition stranding isn't typical (though I have been told by a distinguished native speaking syntactician that it can occur in Dutch) of the Germanic languages with OV order in subordinate clauses (i.e. Continental West Germanic), but of those with VO, which means essentially English and North Germanic. Syntactic borrowing from any of the Germanic languages where stranding is characteristic seems odd in Parisian French, where there is no contact situation of the type that would conduce to syntactic borrowing. Unless one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas). I'm not a Romanist but considering the increasing isolation of Anglo-French from Continental French during the Middle Ages, any transfer from English would seem very peculiar. North Germanic is out of the question of course. RL -----Original Message----- From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hopper Sent: 15 December 2013 02:47 PM To: Peter Hook Cc: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; lista Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928. les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? Paul > Hi Eduardo, > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where > the writer is from]: > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine > il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > Cheers, > > Peter Hook > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > >> Dear Eduardo, >> >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé >> nada") >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informat iva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >> >> >> Hope it helps! >> >> Carlota >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >> > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >> >> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >> > >> > Dear colleagues, >> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >> > phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a >> > more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, >> > legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >> > original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >> > cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >> > lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage? >> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >> > this >> topic. >> > >> > Obrigado, >> > >> > Eduardo >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Histling-l mailing list >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > -- Paul J. Hopper, Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, University of Pittsburgh Senior External Fellow, School of Linguistics and Literature, Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany Publications: Message-ID: Dr Ramat, Thank you for your comments on my answer to Paul Hopper. Geoffrey Nathan sent a subsequent email and I responded, but I did not mean to send it to him alone, so below I am forwarding my exchange with him. I am glad to learn the origin of "avec", which I did not know. m-l From: mltarpent at hotmail.com To: geoffnathan at wayne.edu Subject: RE: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:26:35 -0400 Thank you, Geoff Nathan! "Je suis là pour" sounds much more authentic than the previously reported "J'y suis pour", where "y" would refer to a known location, or at least of something previously mentioned or understood. I have no doubt that you reported the sentence correctly, since I have must have heard the structure many times in France, with various Subject pronouns. Your waiter would not have needed to know English to adopt a widespread phrase modelled on English structure, but as examples accumulate I think that at least here the preposition-last structure here is not a case of preposition-stranding on the English model but more generally a case of omission of final ÇA, not only in - Je suis là pour (ça)! 'That's what I am here for!' but for instance in - Les films japonais, j'adore! 'I love Japanese movies!' where the Object is at least understood if not actually stated as Topic. In my youth such sentences sounded pretentious. They were (at least in my experience) associated with a certain type of upper- or almost-upper-class young women, but they must have become more widespread, rejoining the "popular speech" examples quoted by Paul Hopper. The omission of ÇA 'that, it' may be due to the fact that it still has a negative connotation. As a "popular" abbreviation of CELA - still used by only in a high register - it was long frowned upon even in speech. I hardly ever use "cela" except if I need to adopt a formal tone (such as in academic writing), but for instance when Le Monde translates "X (number of) readers recommend this" as "X lecteurs recommandent ça", "ça" here sounds to me as inappropriately derogatory, not neutral like English "this". But my point of view is probably very old-fashioned (I am retired). Going back to: - Je suis là pour (ça)! 'That's what I am here for!' what about the (recent?) "that's-less" structure in English: - X (writes a comment on a blog). - Y (commenting on X's comment): What X said! (= I agree, I could have said the same thing). marie-lucie Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:17:26 -0500 From: geoffnathan at wayne.edu To: mltarpent at hotmail.com CC: hopper at cmu.edu; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years ago, let me clarify. We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..) asked the waiter: Si je peux vous poser une question? The waiter replied: Je suis là pour. I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French (français avancé as they like to say...) Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. From: "Marie-Lucie Tarpent" To: hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases Paul Hopper: About Bauche's examples: (1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he slept with) This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" is not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couché", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in writing. (2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him' Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I ran after him/her', "j'ai couru après lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. (3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it' A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): so perhaps a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA. ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for THAT' b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.' c) - ... ÇA... - T'as pas travaillé pour. (omitting the topic, which was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. As for the next and most recent example: (4) j'y suis pour it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite could be true). marie-lucie > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > From: hopper at cmu.edu > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: Payot, > 1928. > > les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” > je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” > tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > Paul > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the > > writer is from]: > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine il > > y > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > Cheers, > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > >> > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé > >> nada") > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > >> > >> > >> Hope it helps! > >> > >> Carlota > >> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > >> > >> > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > >> > > >> > Dear colleagues, > >> > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > >> > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > >> > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > >> topic. > >> > > >> > Obrigado, > >> > > >> > Eduardo > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Histling-l mailing list > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Histling-l mailing list > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > -- > Paul J. Hopper, > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > Department of English, > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > Carnegie Mellon University, > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > University of Pittsburgh > > Senior External Fellow, > School of Linguistics and Literature, > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > Publications: > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From remy.viredaz at bluewin.ch Sun Dec 15 23:26:06 2013 From: remy.viredaz at bluewin.ch (=?ISO-8859-1?B?UulteQ==?= Viredaz) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 00:26:06 +0100 Subject: Word order in phrases - J'y suis pour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, Although I've never heard "J'y suis pour", I think it means "I'm just about to do it" (or even "I've already begun to do it", but perhaps only as an hyperbole). I have heard (in a movie, perhaps) the construction "il va pour + infinitive" in the meaning "il s'apprête à". Perhaps there is a variant "il est pour ..." in the same meaning, hence in the first person "J'y suis pour", where "y" will be the anaphoric representing the infinitive of the preceding sentence (said by the customer). I'm not sure because "il va pour..", "il est pour..." are not used here in Switzerland (in this meaning). And it would be important to know whether the phrase was heard in France or in Quebec, where they tend to borrow English syntax. As for the other examples: "Il lui a couru après" is for me the normal way to say it ("il a couru après lui" is possible but not usual) "T'as pas travaillé pour" ("n'" would no longer be used nowadays) is not usual, but there is the phrase "C'est étudié pour" (C'est e'tudie' pour) in a famous comical sketch of the mid 20th century ("That's designed for that", i.e. for that purpose). The grammatical construction (I'm not speaking of the content) in "Les femmes qu'il a couché avec" sounds very low-level (populaire), but on the other hand, "Les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" sounds a bit high-nosed; this is the correct or standard construction in writing, but it is not usual in colloquial speech. As you Paolo remark, "avec" and "après" are adverbs and not only prepositions. English influence is totally unlikely in all these examples. Now I'm not a specialist in French, just an informant among others, so to speak. Best, Rémy Viredaz, Geneva remy.viredaz at bluewin.ch Le 15.12.13 23:03, « histling-l-request at mailman.rice.edu » a écrit : > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: FW: Borrowed word order in phrases (Paolo Ramat) > 2. FW: Borrowed word order in phrases (Marie-Lucie Tarpent) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 19:21:18 +0100 > From: "Paolo Ramat" > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases > To: "Roger Lass" , > Cc: paolo.ramat at unipv.it > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; > reply-type=original > > Very interesting discussion! > Point 1.: "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for" (Paul > Hopper, 15 XII '13). Impossible in Italian:**Io sono per (perhaps > acceptable: ??'Io sono pro', as answer to a question such as 'Sei pro o > contro/contra ?', whereby *pro* is not an Ital. preposition, but a > latinism -as *contra* !) > Point 2.: I think Roger Lass is right when he writes (15 XII '13) "Unless > one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing > (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French), > imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and > transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas)." The > postposition of *avec* is quite usual in Mod. colloquial French, not only in > Canada, and it is plausible that "[t]he origin of the preposition-last > construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out r e c e n > t [my emphasis] calques from English, and is more likely to be found in > extensions of popular syntax"(M.-L. Tarpent; cp. Hopper: "This is a very > common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, > ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject). > As a metter of fact, we find already in mdiaeval French *Dont m'en porteras > tu avoec * 'Alors tu m'emportera avec' (Le jeu de St. Nicolas , Jehan Bodel > 1201), not possible in Ital.: **"Allora tu mi porterai con". The so-called > Preposition stranding (1) is rare in Italian: 'je lui ai couru apr?s' ?I > ran after him?(ex. of P.Hopper) = Ital. "gli sono corso dietro" is OK, but > not **"tu non hai lavorato per" as transl. of 'tu n?as pas travaill? pour' > "You didn't work for it". > Already OFr. "...qu'otot le cheval l'a mis jus" ( Partenopeu de Blois), lit. > ...that all the horse has put down, i.e. "...qu'il l'a abattu avec son > cheval" . This could hardly be translated into Italian with "...che lo ha > buttato gi? col suo cavallo". > The 'preposition stranding' (not only of *avec*!: see *apr?s*, etc.) could > be another example of Germanic influence on French and other Rom. languages > (see, e.g. ON. Eirikr hinn Raidhi 'Erik the Red' , OHG. kuningin thia richun > (Otfr. I 3.31)'the mighty queen', Lorenzo il Magnifico, and > Karl der Grosse vs. the Romance type Charlemagne: but this is another story > which, however, could be an answer to Eduardo's question concerning > borrowed word orders compared to a more common, inherited type). > > (1) Properly speaking, *avec* (< Lat. apud hoc) is not a preposition but an > adverbial which can occur with a verb (e.g. je viens avec), as well as with > a noun -assuming in this second case the function of a PREP: avec mon > couteau (?? mon couteau avec) 'with my knife'. > > Best season's greetings to anyone of the histling! > Paolo Ramat > > Prof.Paolo Ramat > Universit? di Pavia > Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) > > -----Messaggio originale----- > From: Roger Lass > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:46 PM > To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Subject: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases > > > -----Original Message (restaured) ----- > From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu > [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Lass > Sent: 15 December 2013 03:23 PM > To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > One might note that preposition stranding isn't typical (though I have been > told by a distinguished native speaking syntactician that it can occur in > Dutch) of the Germanic languages with OV order in subordinate clauses > (i.e. Continental West Germanic), but of those with VO, which means > essentially English and North Germanic. Syntactic borrowing from any of the > Germanic languages where stranding is characteristic seems odd in Parisian > French, where there is no contact situation of the type that would conduce > to syntactic borrowing. Unless one would like to think of this as an early > mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact > between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not > Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more > prestigious dialect-areas). I'm not a Romanist but considering the > increasing isolation of Anglo-French from Continental French during the > Middle Ages, any transfer from English would seem very peculiar. North > Germanic is out of the question of course. > RL > > > -----Original Message----- > From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu > [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hopper > Sent: 15 December 2013 02:47 PM > To: Peter Hook > Cc: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; lista > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle dans > le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928. > > les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? > je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? > tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > Paul > > > > > > >> Hi Eduardo, >> >> An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where >> the writer is from]: >> >> www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... >> Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors >> Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine >> il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! >> >> Cheers, >> >> Peter Hook >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: >> >>> Dear Eduardo, >>> >>> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? >>> nada") >>> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >>> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >>> > https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informat > iva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >>> >>> >>> Hope it helps! >>> >>> Carlota >>> >>>> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >>>> From: kariri at gmail.com >>>> To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >>>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >>> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >>>> Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>> >>>> >>>> [apologies for cross-posting] >>>> >>>> Dear colleagues, >>>> >>>> I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >>>> phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a >>>> more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, >>>> legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >>>> original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >>>> (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >>>> >>>> Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >>>> cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >>>> lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage? >>>> >>>> I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >>>> this >>> topic. >>>> >>>> Obrigado, >>>> >>>> Eduardo >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >>>> http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Histling-l mailing list >>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> > > > -- > Paul J. Hopper, > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of > English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon > University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > University of Pittsburgh > > Senior External Fellow, > School of Linguistics and Literature, > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > Publications: > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 18:03:16 -0400 > From: Marie-Lucie Tarpent > Subject: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases > To: , , > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Dr Ramat, > > Thank you for your comments on my answer to Paul Hopper. Geoffrey Nathan sent > a subsequent email and I responded, but I did not mean to send it to him > alone, so below I am forwarding my exchange with him. > > I am glad to learn the origin of "avec", which I did not know. > > m-l > > > > From: mltarpent at hotmail.com > To: geoffnathan at wayne.edu > Subject: RE: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:26:35 -0400 > > > > > Thank you, Geoff Nathan! > > "Je suis l? pour" sounds much more authentic than the previously reported "J'y > suis pour", where "y" would refer to a known location, or at least of > something previously mentioned or understood. I have no doubt that you > reported the sentence correctly, since I have must have heard the structure > many times in France, with various Subject pronouns. > > Your waiter would not have needed to know English to adopt a widespread phrase > modelled on English structure, but as examples accumulate I think that at > least here the preposition-last structure here is not a case of > preposition-stranding on the English model but more generally a case of > omission of final ?A, not only in > > - Je suis l? pour (?a)! 'That's what I am here for!' > > but for instance in > > - Les films japonais, j'adore! 'I love Japanese movies!' > > where the Object is at least understood if not actually stated as Topic. In > my youth such sentences sounded pretentious. They were (at least in my > experience) associated with a certain type of upper- or almost-upper-class > young women, but they must have become more widespread, rejoining the "popular > speech" examples quoted by Paul Hopper. > > The omission of ?A 'that, it' may be due to the fact that it still has a > negative connotation. As a "popular" abbreviation of CELA - still used by > only in a high register - it was long frowned upon even in speech. I hardly > ever use "cela" except if I need to adopt a formal tone (such as in academic > writing), but for instance when Le Monde translates "X (number of) readers > recommend this" as "X lecteurs recommandent ?a", "?a" here sounds to me as > inappropriately derogatory, not neutral like English "this". But my point of > view is probably very old-fashioned (I am retired). > > Going back to: > > - Je suis l? pour (?a)! 'That's what I am here for!' > > what about the (recent?) "that's-less" structure in English: > > - X (writes a comment on a blog). > - Y (commenting on X's comment): What X said! (= I agree, I could have said > the same thing). > > marie-lucie > > > > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:17:26 -0500 > From: geoffnathan at wayne.edu > To: mltarpent at hotmail.com > CC: hopper at cmu.edu; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years > ago, let me clarify. > > We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France > about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..) > asked the waiter: > > Si je peux vous poser une question? > > The waiter replied: > > Je suis l? pour. > > I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and > Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around > here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French > (fran?ais avanc? as they like to say...) > > Geoff > > Geoffrey S. Nathan > Faculty Liaison, C&IT > and Professor, Linguistics Program > http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) > > Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to > anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. > > > From: "Marie-Lucie Tarpent" > To: hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > > Paul Hopper: > > About Bauche's examples: > > (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he > slept with) > > This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a > single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The > formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" is not only much > more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar in > tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque > of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couch?", > common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in > writing. > > (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him' > > Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence > immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman) > chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique > pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I ran after > him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted > as above, although possibly so depending on the context. > > (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it' > > A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ... > pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas > travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of > "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): > so perhaps > a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for > THAT' > b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.' > c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which was > mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' > > The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) > speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found > in extensions of popular syntax. > > As for the next and most recent example: > > (4) j'y suis pour > > it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to > be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but > cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite > could be true). > > marie-lucie > >> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 >> From: hopper at cmu.edu >> To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com >> CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br >> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >> >> The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. >> Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle >> dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, >> 1928. >> >> les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? >> je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? >> tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" >> >> A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as >> saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". >> >> Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic >> substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Hi Eduardo, >>> >>> An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the >>> writer is from]: >>> >>> www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... >>> Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors >>> Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine il >>> y >>> en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Peter Hook >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Eduardo, >>>> >>>> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? >>>> nada") >>>> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >>>> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >>>> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informa >>>> tiva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >>>> >>>> >>>> Hope it helps! >>>> >>>> Carlota >>>> >>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >>>>> From: kariri at gmail.com >>>>> To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >>>> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >>>>> Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>>> >>>>> >>>>> [apologies for cross-posting] >>>>> >>>>> Dear colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases >>>>> present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more >>>>> common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal >>>>> terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original >>>>> Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >>>>> (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >>>>> >>>>> Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases >>>>> in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, >>>>> ended up becoming the default usage? >>>>> >>>>> I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this >>>> topic. >>>>> >>>>> Obrigado, >>>>> >>>>> Eduardo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >>>>> http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Histling-l mailing list >>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >> >> >> -- >> Paul J. Hopper, >> Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, >> Department of English, >> Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, >> Carnegie Mellon University, >> Pittsburgh, PA 15213, >> >> Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, >> University of Pittsburgh >> >> Senior External Fellow, >> School of Linguistics and Literature, >> Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), >> Freiburg i.Br., Germany >> >> Publications: >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > ttachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > End of Histling-l Digest, Vol 80, Issue 10 > ****************************************** _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From peter.e.hook at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 15:00:32 2013 From: peter.e.hook at gmail.com (Peter Hook) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 00:00:32 +0900 Subject: FW: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Marie and others, If you google the sequences "pour jouer avec et" and "courir après *et* " and "faire pour et" you will get hundreds of examples, many of which contain the abbreviation "fr" in their URLs. By adding the conjunction "et" immediately after the preposition you will exclude most of the examples of* unstranded *prepositions. Some of the "hits" will be junk but most are the real deal. Examples: je veut mettre un x6 car lorsque j aurais le budget je rajoute une CG *pour jouer avec et* je fais aussi de la video Pour lui apprendre à jouer avec une balle, commencez par jouer vous-même en la lançant et en faisant mine de *courir après et* lorsque votre chien s'approche, *...*puis il pique de temps en temps mon tel portable *pour jouer avec, et*il pique aussi ma tablette où il y a pas mal d'applis pour les petits... Mar 30, 2012 - Mais comme Shalima et Frogita, je te dirai simplement que tu vas y aller, et vite, à toi de tout *faire pour et* de bien en profiter une fois que tu y *...* All the best, Peter On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Marie-Lucie Tarpent wrote: > Dr Ramat, > > Thank you for your comments on my answer to Paul Hopper. Geoffrey Nathan > sent a subsequent email and I responded, but I did not mean to send it to > him alone, so below I am forwarding my exchange with him. > > I am glad to learn the origin of "avec", which I did not know. > > m-l > > > > ------------------------------ > From: mltarpent at hotmail.com > To: geoffnathan at wayne.edu > Subject: RE: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:26:35 -0400 > > Thank you, Geoff Nathan! > > "Je suis là pour" sounds much more authentic than the previously reported > "J'y suis pour", where "y" would refer to a known location, or at least of > something previously mentioned or understood. I have no doubt that you > reported the sentence correctly, since I have must have heard the structure > many times in France, with various Subject pronouns. > > Your waiter would not have needed to know English to adopt a widespread > phrase modelled on English structure, but as examples accumulate I think > that at least here the preposition-last structure here is not a case of > preposition-stranding on the English model but more generally a case of > omission of final ÇA, not only in > > - Je suis là pour (ça)! 'That's what I am here for!' > > but for instance in > > - Les films japonais, j'adore! 'I love Japanese movies!' > > where the Object is at least understood if not actually stated as > Topic. In my youth such sentences sounded pretentious. They were (at > least in my experience) associated with a certain type of upper- or > almost-upper-class young women, but they must have become more widespread, > rejoining the "popular speech" examples quoted by Paul Hopper. > > The omission of ÇA 'that, it' may be due to the fact that it still has a > negative connotation. As a "popular" abbreviation of CELA - still used by > only in a high register - it was long frowned upon even in speech. I > hardly ever use "cela" except if I need to adopt a formal tone (such as in > academic writing), but for instance when Le Monde translates "X (number of) > readers recommend this" as "X lecteurs recommandent ça", "ça" here sounds > to me as inappropriately derogatory, not neutral like English "this". But > my point of view is probably very old-fashioned (I am retired). > > Going back to: > > - Je suis là pour (ça)! 'That's what I am here for!' > > what about the (recent?) "that's-less" structure in English: > > - X (writes a comment on a blog). > - Y (commenting on X's comment): What X said! (= I agree, I could have > said the same thing). > > marie-lucie > > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:17:26 -0500 > From: geoffnathan at wayne.edu > To: mltarpent at hotmail.com > CC: hopper at cmu.edu; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several > years ago, let me clarify. > > We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France > about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know > her..) asked the waiter: > > Si je peux vous poser une question? > > The waiter replied: > > Je suis là pour. > > I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and > Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around > here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary > French (français avancé as they like to say...) > > Geoff > > Geoffrey S. Nathan > Faculty Liaison, C&IT > and Professor, Linguistics Program > http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) > > Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it > to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. > > > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" > *To: *hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > *Sent: *Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM > *Subject: *Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > Paul Hopper: > > About Bauche's examples: > > (1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that > he slept with) > > This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a > single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The > formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" is not only much > more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar > in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a > calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a > couché", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, > especially in writing. > > (2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him' > > Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French > sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I > (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an > oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I > ran after him/her', "j'ai couru après lui/elle" would be less likely to be > interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. > > (3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it' > > A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne > ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas > travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage > of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in > (1)): so perhaps > a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA. ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't work > for THAT' > b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour. 'THAT is not what you worked > for.' > c) - ... ÇA... - T'as pas travaillé pour. (omitting the topic, which was > mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' > > The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= > uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more > likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. > > As for the next and most recent example: > > (4) j'y suis pour > > it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most > likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here > for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or > the opposite could be true). > > marie-lucie > > > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > > From: hopper at cmu.edu > > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle > > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: > Payot, > > 1928. > > > > les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” > > je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” > > tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" > > > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where > the > > > writer is from]: > > > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine > il > > > y > > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > > >> > > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé > > >> nada") > > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > > >> > https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_ > ). > > >> > > >> > > >> Hope it helps! > > >> > > >> Carlota > > >> > > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > ; > > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > >> > > >> > > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > > >> > > > >> > Dear colleagues, > > >> > > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) > phrases > > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the > original > > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > >> > > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > > >> > > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > > >> topic. > > >> > > > >> > Obrigado, > > >> > > > >> > Eduardo > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista > > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Histling-l mailing list > > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Histling-l mailing list > > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Histling-l mailing list > > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul J. Hopper, > > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > > Department of English, > > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > > Carnegie Mellon University, > > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > > University of Pittsburgh > > > > Senior External Fellow, > > School of Linguistics and Literature, > > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > > > Publications: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From george.walkden at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 16:18:25 2013 From: george.walkden at gmail.com (George Walkden) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:18:25 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Borrowed word order in phrases Message-ID: Dear all, A response from Ruth King on the VAR-L list, where this topic has also been under discussion. (Mailing list cross-pollination ftw.) Best, - George Begin forwarded message: > From: Ruth King > Subject: Re: Fwd: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > Date: 16 December 2013 16:14:02 GMT > To: George Walkden > Cc: > > Dear George and all, > > For those who want to take the discussion on French back even further, there is > Marie-Thérèse Vinet (1984) “La syntaxe du québécois et les emprunts à l’anglais” Revue de l’association québécoise de linguistique 24:2.165-181. > Denis Bouchard (1982) "Les constructions relatives en français vernaculaire et en français vernaculaire." La syntaxe comparée du français standard et populaire : approches formelles et fonctionnelles ed. by Claire Lefebvre, 103-34. Québec : Office de la langue française. > > > Vinet spells out clearly the diffferences between English and French with respect to where empty objects of P are allowed while Bouchard presents some very interesting historical data. I should be clear that my own work on P-Stranding, singly and with Yves Roberge, involves three constructions - relative clauses, WH-questions and pseudo-passives - and argues for contact-induced change in certain varieties of Acadian French, precisely those varieties which have borrowed English prepositions. > > George, feel free to post this on Histling-l. > > Best, > Ruth -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From laurenzentz at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 16:01:32 2013 From: laurenzentz at gmail.com (Lauren Zentz) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:01:32 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Borrowed word order in phrases Message-ID: Hello all, I am posting this on behalf of Shana Poplack, who is not on this listserv. Apologies for cross-postings. Lauren Zentz Just to set the record straight, it’s not true that the people who wrote that article in *Bilingualism: language and cognition, *of which I am one, “don’t believe that change in frequency is change”. Of course it can be! (See Poplack & Malvar 2008 for a particularly striking example) But sometimes it’s not. The point of the BLC paper was to lay out – and implement! – a number of criteria, consisting mainly of comparisons with relevant diachronic and synchronic benchmarks, for the establishment of contact-induced change. Oddly enough, many of them were also enunciated, though not always implemented, by Sally herself. Applying such criteria systematically to a great deal of Quebec French data, we showed that the phrase-final prepositions in question do not display the syntactic properties of English stranded prepositions, do not represent a change vis-à-vis an earlier stage (at least over the century-and-a-half time span under study), and are not contact-induced, but rather the result of an analogical extension to the relative clause context of the native French “orphan” (e.g. Zribi-Herz) prepositions. That the latter are characteristic of non-contact French was also pointed out by Paul in his citation of Bauche 1928. Parenthetically, the *“J’y suis pour”* example heard by Geoff Nathan in the center of France was one of these orphan prepositions. -- Shana Poplack On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Daniel Ezra Johnson < danielezrajohnson at gmail.com> wrote: > Poplack and Dion don't believe that change in frequency is change? J'ai > pas connu ça. > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, George Walkden < > george.walkden at manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> For the benefit of those of you who aren't also on the Histling list, >> where this was originally posted, here's some of the (fascinating) >> discussion that's been going on there. Both Ruth's and Lauren's work has >> already been mentioned there (by me, ahem). >> >> Best, >> >> - George >> >> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >> George Walkden >> Lecturer in English Linguistics >> University of Manchester >> george.walkden at manchester.ac.uk >> http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/george.walkden/ >> Office: N1.2 Samuel Alexander Building >> Tel.: +44 (0)161 275 8905 >> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *Sarah Thomason >> *Subject: **Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases* >> *Date: *15 December 2013 17:18:21 GMT >> *To: *George Walkden >> *Cc: *"Geoffrey S. Nathan" , >> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> >> But that paper in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition is written by >> people who don't believe that change in frequency is change. It's a very >> odd belief, and it would rule out any change from a more restricted set of >> environments to a "default" status -- for those authors such a change >> wouldn't count as any kind of change, no matter how contact-induced it was. >> >> -- Sally Thomason >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:08 AM, George Walkden > > wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a paper >>> arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not due to >>> contact - with several responses. >>> >>> < >>> https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02 >>> > >>> >>> Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps >>> not normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The >>> issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here. >>> >>> - George >>> >>> >>> On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: >>> >>> As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several >>> years ago, let me clarify. >>> >>> We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central >>> France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you >>> know her..) asked the waiter: >>> >>> Si je peux vous poser une question? >>> >>> The waiter replied: >>> >>> Je suis là pour. >>> >>> I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, >>> and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from >>> around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial >>> contemporary French (français avancé as they like to say...) >>> >>> Geoff >>> >>> Geoffrey S. Nathan >>> Faculty Liaison, C&IT >>> and Professor, Linguistics Program >>> http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ >>> +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) >>> >>> Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it >>> to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From: *"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" >>> *To: *hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, >>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> *Sent: *Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM >>> >>> *Subject: *Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>> >>> Paul Hopper: >>> >>> About Bauche's examples: >>> >>> (1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that >>> he slept with) >>> >>> This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as >>> a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than >>> Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" is >>> not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number >>> agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom >>> he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les >>> femmes avec qui il a couché", common in casual educated speech but frowned >>> upon by purists, especially in writing. >>> >>> (2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him' >>> >>> Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French >>> sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I >>> (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an >>> oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I >>> ran after him/her', "j'ai couru après lui/elle" would be less likely to be >>> interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. >>> >>> (3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it' >>> >>> A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use >>> "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as >>> pas travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this >>> usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses >>> (as in (1)): so perhaps >>> a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA. ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't >>> work for THAT' >>> b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour. 'THAT is not what you worked >>> for.' >>> c) - ... ÇA... - T'as pas travaillé pour. (omitting the topic, which >>> was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' >>> >>> The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= >>> uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more >>> likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. >>> >>> As for the next and most recent example: >>> >>> (4) j'y suis pour >>> >>> it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most >>> likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here >>> for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or >>> the opposite could be true). >>> >>> marie-lucie >>> >>> > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 >>> > From: hopper at cmu.edu >>> > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com >>> > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br >>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>> > >>> > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage >>> populaire. >>> > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle >>> > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: >>> Payot, >>> > 1928. >>> > >>> > les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” >>> > je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” >>> > tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" >>> > >>> > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as >>> > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". >>> > >>> > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic >>> > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? >>> > >>> > Paul >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > Hi Eduardo, >>> > > >>> > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where >>> the >>> > > writer is from]: >>> > > >>> > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... >>> > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors >>> > > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la >>> semaine il >>> > > y >>> > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! >>> > > >>> > > Cheers, >>> > > >>> > > Peter Hook >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka >>> wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> Dear Eduardo, >>> > >> >>> > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé >>> > >> nada") >>> > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >>> > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >>> > >> >>> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_ >>> ). >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> Hope it helps! >>> > >> >>> > >> Carlota >>> > >> >>> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >>> > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >>> > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >>> > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >>> > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>> > >> >>> > >> > >>> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >>> > >> > >>> > >> > Dear colleagues, >>> > >> > >>> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >>> phrases >>> > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more >>> > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal >>> > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >>> original >>> > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >>> > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >>> > >> > >>> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >>> cases >>> > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >>> lexemes, >>> > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? >>> > >> > >>> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >>> this >>> > >> topic. >>> > >> > >>> > >> > Obrigado, >>> > >> > >>> > >> > Eduardo >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > -- >>> > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista >>> > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >>> > >> > _______________________________________________ >>> > >> > Histling-l mailing list >>> > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> > >> >>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> Histling-l mailing list >>> > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > Histling-l mailing list >>> > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Paul J. Hopper, >>> > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, >>> > Department of English, >>> > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, >>> > Carnegie Mellon University, >>> > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, >>> > >>> > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, >>> > University of Pittsburgh >>> > >>> > Senior External Fellow, >>> > School of Linguistics and Literature, >>> > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), >>> > Freiburg i.Br., Germany >>> > >>> > Publications: >>> > >> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Histling-l mailing list >>> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Histling-l mailing list >>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Histling-l mailing list >>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Histling-l mailing list >>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist >> sociolinguistics. >> >> To send messages to the VAR-L list (subscribers only), write to: >> VAR-L at JISCMAIL.AC.UK >> >> To unsubscribe from the VAR-L list, click the following link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=VAR-L&A=1 >> > > > ------------------------------ > > The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist > sociolinguistics. > > To send messages to the VAR-L list (subscribers only), write to: > VAR-L at JISCMAIL.AC.UK > > To unsubscribe from the VAR-L list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=VAR-L&A=1 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From thomason at umich.edu Wed Dec 18 16:23:45 2013 From: thomason at umich.edu (Sarah Thomason) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 08:23:45 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Eh, how can change in frequency (note the word "change" in the NP "change in frequency"!) *ever* not be change?! I have no opinion on the specific issue of stranded prepositions in French -- I'm not qualified to judge -- but two additional points that are not taken into account in Shana's (and co-authors') work are important for the general question: (1) contact-induced changes very often produce results that are not identical to the relevant source-language features, a well-established fact that removes the non-identity of stranded-preposition rules in English & Quebec French as a cogent argument against a hypothesis that English influence was involved in the (purported) expansion of stranded prepositions in Quebec French. And (2) multiple causation in both internally-motivated and contact-induced language change is so common that the existence of a plausible internal analogic source for a given change also isn't evidence against the influence of language contact in triggering and/or spreading the same change. To avoid further misunderstanding, this of course does not mean that English influenced any spread of this feature in Quebec French or elsewhere. It does mean that the other arguments against the hypothesis are the only ones that carry weight. I'm pretty careful to follow my criteria for establishing contact-induced change; when I can't satisfy one of the requisites for a given example, I say so. Shana may be misled into thinking I'm careless about this because of the inaccurate "paraphrase" of one or two of my criteria in Poplack & Levey. I've probably stumbled now and then, of course. -- Sally Thomason On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Lauren Zentz wrote: > Hello all, > I am posting this on behalf of Shana Poplack, who is not on this > listserv. > Apologies for cross-postings. > Lauren Zentz > > > > Just to set the record straight, it’s not true that the people who wrote > that article in *Bilingualism: language and cognition, *of which I am > one, “don’t believe that change in frequency is change”. Of course it can > be! (See Poplack & Malvar 2008 for a particularly striking example) But > sometimes it’s not. The point of the BLC paper was to lay out – and > implement! – a number of criteria, consisting mainly of comparisons with > relevant diachronic and synchronic benchmarks, for the establishment of > contact-induced change. Oddly enough, many of them were also enunciated, > though not always implemented, by Sally herself. Applying such criteria > systematically to a great deal of Quebec French data, we showed that the > phrase-final prepositions in question do not display the syntactic > properties of English stranded prepositions, do not represent a change > vis-à-vis an earlier stage (at least over the century-and-a-half time span > under study), and are not contact-induced, but rather the result of an > analogical extension to the relative clause context of the native French > “orphan” (e.g. Zribi-Herz) prepositions. That the latter are characteristic > of non-contact French was also pointed out by Paul in his citation of > Bauche 1928. Parenthetically, the *“J’y suis pour”* example heard by > Geoff Nathan in the center of France was one of these orphan prepositions. > > -- Shana Poplack > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Daniel Ezra Johnson < > danielezrajohnson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Poplack and Dion don't believe that change in frequency is change? J'ai >> pas connu ça. >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, George Walkden < >> george.walkden at manchester.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> For the benefit of those of you who aren't also on the Histling list, >>> where this was originally posted, here's some of the (fascinating) >>> discussion that's been going on there. Both Ruth's and Lauren's work has >>> already been mentioned there (by me, ahem). >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> - George >>> >>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >>> George Walkden >>> Lecturer in English Linguistics >>> University of Manchester >>> george.walkden at manchester.ac.uk >>> http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/george.walkden/ >>> Office: N1.2 Samuel Alexander Building >>> Tel.: +44 (0)161 275 8905 >>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> *From: *Sarah Thomason >>> *Subject: **Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases* >>> *Date: *15 December 2013 17:18:21 GMT >>> *To: *George Walkden >>> *Cc: *"Geoffrey S. Nathan" , >>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> >>> But that paper in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition is written by >>> people who don't believe that change in frequency is change. It's a very >>> odd belief, and it would rule out any change from a more restricted set of >>> environments to a "default" status -- for those authors such a change >>> wouldn't count as any kind of change, no matter how contact-induced it was. >>> >>> -- Sally Thomason >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:08 AM, George Walkden < >>> george.walkden at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a >>>> paper arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not >>>> due to contact - with several responses. >>>> >>>> < >>>> https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02 >>>> > >>>> >>>> Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps >>>> not normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The >>>> issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here. >>>> >>>> - George >>>> >>>> >>>> On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: >>>> >>>> As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list >>>> several years ago, let me clarify. >>>> >>>> We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central >>>> France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you >>>> know her..) asked the waiter: >>>> >>>> Si je peux vous poser une question? >>>> >>>> The waiter replied: >>>> >>>> Je suis là pour. >>>> >>>> I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, >>>> and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from >>>> around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial >>>> contemporary French (français avancé as they like to say...) >>>> >>>> Geoff >>>> >>>> Geoffrey S. Nathan >>>> Faculty Liaison, C&IT >>>> and Professor, Linguistics Program >>>> http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ >>>> +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) >>>> >>>> Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send >>>> it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From: *"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" >>>> *To: *hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, >>>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> *Sent: *Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM >>>> >>>> *Subject: *Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>>> >>>> Paul Hopper: >>>> >>>> About Bauche's examples: >>>> >>>> (1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... >>>> that he slept with) >>>> >>>> This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used >>>> as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than >>>> Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" is >>>> not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number >>>> agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom >>>> he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les >>>> femmes avec qui il a couché", common in casual educated speech but frowned >>>> upon by purists, especially in writing. >>>> >>>> (2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him' >>>> >>>> Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French >>>> sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I >>>> (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an >>>> oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I >>>> ran after him/her', "j'ai couru après lui/elle" would be less likely to be >>>> interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. >>>> >>>> (3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it' >>>> >>>> A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use >>>> "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as >>>> pas travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this >>>> usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses >>>> (as in (1)): so perhaps >>>> a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA. ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't >>>> work for THAT' >>>> b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour. 'THAT is not what you worked >>>> for.' >>>> c) - ... ÇA... - T'as pas travaillé pour. (omitting the topic, which >>>> was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' >>>> >>>> The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= >>>> uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more >>>> likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. >>>> >>>> As for the next and most recent example: >>>> >>>> (4) j'y suis pour >>>> >>>> it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most >>>> likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here >>>> for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or >>>> the opposite could be true). >>>> >>>> marie-lucie >>>> >>>> > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 >>>> > From: hopper at cmu.edu >>>> > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com >>>> > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br >>>> >>>> > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>>> > >>>> > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage >>>> populaire. >>>> > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le >>>> parle >>>> > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: >>>> Payot, >>>> > 1928. >>>> > >>>> > les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with” >>>> > je lui ai couru après “I ran after him” >>>> > tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it" >>>> > >>>> > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter >>>> as >>>> > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". >>>> > >>>> > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic >>>> > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? >>>> > >>>> > Paul >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > Hi Eduardo, >>>> > > >>>> > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of >>>> where the >>>> > > writer is from]: >>>> > > >>>> > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... >>>> > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors >>>> > > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la >>>> semaine il >>>> > > y >>>> > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! >>>> > > >>>> > > Cheers, >>>> > > >>>> > > Peter Hook >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka >>>> wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > >> Dear Eduardo, >>>> > >> >>>> > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé >>>> > >> nada") >>>> > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >>>> > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >>>> > >> >>>> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_ >>>> ). >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Hope it helps! >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Carlota >>>> > >> >>>> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >>>> > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >>>> > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >>>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >>>> > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >>>> > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>>> > >> >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > Dear colleagues, >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >>>> phrases >>>> > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more >>>> > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, >>>> legal >>>> > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >>>> original >>>> > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >>>> > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >>>> cases >>>> > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >>>> lexemes, >>>> > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >>>> this >>>> > >> topic. >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > Obrigado, >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > Eduardo >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > -- >>>> > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista >>>> > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >>>> > >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> > Histling-l mailing list >>>> > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> > >> >>>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> Histling-l mailing list >>>> > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > > _______________________________________________ >>>> > > Histling-l mailing list >>>> > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Paul J. Hopper, >>>> > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, >>>> > Department of English, >>>> > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, >>>> > Carnegie Mellon University, >>>> > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, >>>> > >>>> > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, >>>> > University of Pittsburgh >>>> > >>>> > Senior External Fellow, >>>> > School of Linguistics and Literature, >>>> > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), >>>> > Freiburg i.Br., Germany >>>> > >>>> > Publications: >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Histling-l mailing list >>>> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist >>> sociolinguistics. >>> >>> To send messages to the VAR-L list (subscribers only), write to: >>> VAR-L at JISCMAIL.AC.UK >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the VAR-L list, click the following link: >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=VAR-L&A=1 >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist >> sociolinguistics. >> >> To send messages to the VAR-L list (subscribers only), write to: >> VAR-L at JISCMAIL.AC.UK >> >> To unsubscribe from the VAR-L list, click the following link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=VAR-L&A=1 >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From linpb at hum.au.dk Mon Dec 23 00:19:18 2013 From: linpb at hum.au.dk (Peter Bakker) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 01:19:18 +0100 Subject: 15-16 Jan, DK: Time and Space in Linguistics & Cross-Creole Comparisons Message-ID: Time and Space in Linguistics: Interdisciplinary Computational Approaches & Cross-Creole Comparisons Tasil2014.com Aarhus University 15-16 January 2014 Programme [ http://tasil2014.com/tasil_programme.pd ]download Programme as .pdf [ http://tasil2014.com/_tasil2014abstracts.pd ]download Abstracts as .pdf Time and Space in Linguistics: Interdisciplinary Computational Approaches & Cross-Creole Comparisons Richard Mortensen Stue, Aarhus University 15-16 January 2014 conference programme DAY 1: Wednesday, January 15th 2014 9.00-9.45 William H. Sutherland (University of Cambridge):
Extinction in languages and species 9.45-10.15 Rebecca Grollemund, Simon Branford & Mark Pagel (University of Reading): [ http://tasil2014.com/02grollemundbranfordpagel.pd ]Bantu expansion follows the Savannah Corridor through the Equatorial rainforest 10.15-10.45 Coffee break 10.45-11.15 Harald Hammarström (Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics, Nijmegen): [ http://tasil2014.com/03hammarstrom.pd ]Basic word order and language contact 11.15-11.45 Michel Généreux & Tjerk Hagemeijer (Lisbon University): [ http://tasil2014.com/04genereuxhagemeijer.pd ]Experiments with the basic vocabulary of the Gulf of Guinea Creoles 11.45-13.00 Lunch break 13.00-13.45 Søren Wichmann (Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig): [ http://tasil2014.com/05wichmann.pd ]Worldwide patterns of language migration 13.45-14.15 Erich Round (University of Queensland):
[ http://tasil2014.com/06round.pd ]Dataset design processes need to be scientifically reported:� The sensitivity of Bayesian clustering and ëresearcher degrees of freedomí 14.15-14.45 Coffee break 14.45-15.30 Michael Dunn (Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics, Nijmegen): [ http://tasil2014.com/07dunn.pd ]A time and place for languages: new perspectives from Bayesian Phylogeography 15.30-16.00 Susanne Michaelis (Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig): [ http://tasil2014.com/08michaelis.pd ]Sampling in contact linguistics: What is a typical creole feature? 16.00-16.30 Aymeric Daval-Markussen (Aarhus University): [ http://tasil2014.com/09daval-markussen.pd ]Creole typology in the age of the APiCS DAY 2: Thursday, January 16th 2014 9.00-9.45 Vittorio Loreto (Sapienza University of Rome): [ http://tasil2014.com/10loreto.pd ]Modelling the emergence of creole languages 9.45-10.15 Stéphane Goyette (Brandon University, Manitoba):
[ http://tasil2014.com/11goyette.pd ]On the genesis of French and non-French Creoles of the Americas 10.15-10.45 Coffee break 10.45-11.15 Eeva Sippola & Abigail Tiny (Aarhus University & Lisbon University): [ http://tasil2014.com/12sippolatiny.pd ]Noun phrases in Iberian-lexifier creoles 11.15-11.45 Chiara Truppi (Humboldt University Berlin): [ http://tasil2014.com/13truppi.pd ]Number and Animacy in Portuguese-based Creoles 11.45-13.00 Lunch break 13.00-13.30 Peter Bakker (Aarhus University):
[ http://tasil2014.com/14bakker.pd ]European creoles versus non-European creoles 13.30-14.00 Kees Versteegh (Radboud Universiteit Nijmegen):
[ http://tasil2014.com/15versteegh.pd ]The expression of future tense in Arabic pidgins and creoles 14.00-14.30 Coffee break 14.30-15.00 Angela Bartens & Eeva Sippola (Helsinki University & Aarhus University): [ http://tasil2014.com/16bartenssippola.pd ]Subject null arguments in creole languages 15.00-15.30 Adrienne Bruyn (Utrecht University):
[ http://tasil2014.com/17bruyn.pd ]Suriname versus the rest of the world: a comparison of functional elements based on the APiCS 15.30-16.00 Conclusions and closure of conference Registration A registration fee of DKK 375 (approx. 50 € ) will be charged to cover lunch, tea and coffee for both days. Please use Aarhus University's [ https://auws.au.dk/timeandspac ]online payment system in order to complete your registration. A conference dinner is planned to take place on Wednesday evening for DKK225 (around 30 €). Registration is required and must likewise be done through Aarhus University's [ https://auws.au.dk/timeandspac ]online payment system. Practical information can be found at [ http://tasil2014.com/location.htm ]http://tasil2014.com/location.html If you have any queries, please feel free to contact us, and we will do our best to assist you. Email: tasil2014 at gmail.com Aymeric Daval-Markussen Peter Bakker Finn Borchsenius Peter Bakker email: linpb at hum.au.dk Linguistics tel. (45) 87162146 Inst. for Æsthetics and Communication Aarhus University tel. institute: (0045)87162156 Bygning 1485- 619 DK 8000 Aarhus C parcels: Peter Bakker, Lingvistik c/o Aarhus Universitet, Intern Post/Adm. Fredrik Nielsens vej 7, bygn. 1444 DK-8000 Aarhus C Danmark home page: http://pure.au.dk/portal/en/persons/peter-bakker(357d6496-4535-4eb4-9296-e88fe32cbd5c).html home page: http://person.au.dk/en/linpb at hum.au.dk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From kristel.vangoethem at uclouvain.be Thu Dec 5 10:02:43 2013 From: kristel.vangoethem at uclouvain.be (Kristel Van Goethem) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 11:02:43 +0100 Subject: Second call for papers: "Category change from a constructional perspective" Deadline 09/12/2013 Message-ID: Second call for papers: ?Category change from a constructional perspective? Call deadline: December 9, 2013 Workshop convenors: * Muriel Norde (Humboldt Universit?t zu Berlin) : muriel.norde at hu-berlin.de * Kristel Van Goethem (F.R.S.-FNRS, Universit? catholique de Louvain) : kristel.vangoethem at uclouvain.be Workshop discussant: Graeme Trousdale (University of Edinburgh) Call for papers This is a workshop proposal to be submitted to the 8th International Conference on Construction Grammar (ICCG8), which will be held at the University of Osnabrueck, 3-6 September, 2014. If you are interested in participating in this workshop, please send both of us a title by December 9, 2013, so we can submit our proposal (including a provisional list of participants and titles) to the ICCG8 conference organizers. If our proposal is accepted, participants will be invited to submit a full abstract (400 words) by February 1, 2014. Conference website: http://www.blogs.uni-osnabrueck.de/iccg8/ Workshop description Category change, i.e. the shift from one word class to another or from free categories to bound categories, is inherent to many different types of change, yet it is usually not given much consideration. The aim of this workshop, therefore, will be to bring category change itself to the fore, as a phenomenon worthy of study in its own right. Adopting a rather broad definition of ?category?, which includes both single words and multi-word units, we will explore how categories change and why some shifts are more frequent than others. In particular, we want to examine whether a constructional perspective enhances our understanding of category change. In our workshop, focus will be on three topics: (i) types of category change, (ii) degrees of gradualness and context-sensitivity, and (iii) directionality. Types of category change Category change may result from different processes. The first process is commonly termed ?non-affixal derivation? or ?conversion?, as in the following examples from French (Kerleroux 1996) and English (Denison 2010). (1) calmeA ?calm? > calmeN ?calmness? (2) dailyA newspaper > dailyN The second process is category change determined by a specific syntactic context, or ?distorsion cat?gorielle? (Kerleroux 1996), as in (3), likewise from French: (3) Elle est d?un courageux! ?(lit. She is of a brave) She is very brave? However, there is no strict boundary between the processes exemplified in (1-2) and (3), as suggested by cases such as Elle est d?un calme! ?lit. She is of a calm; She is very calm?. In this example, the nominal use of calme can be accounted for both as conversion and as context-internal category change. Third, category change can be linked to processes of univerbation with structural change (Denison 2010), e.g. the use of English far from as an adverbial downtoner in (4) (De Smet 2012), or the development of the German pronoun neizwer out of a Middle High German sentence (5) (Haspelmath 1997: 131). (4) The life of a ?beauty queen? is far from beautiful. (web) (5) ne weiz wer ?I don?t know who? > neizwer ?somebody? A fourth type is one in which an item shifts category in the wake of the category shift of another item, e.g. the shift of Swedish adverbs in ?vis to adjectives when the head of a VP is nominalized: (6) Samh?llet f?randras gradvisADV. ?Society changes gradually? (7) Den gradvisaADJ f?r?ndringen av samh?llet. ?The gradual change of society? Finally, category change may be part of a grammaticalization change, i.e. ?the change whereby lexical items and constructions come in certain linguistic contexts to serve grammatical functions and, once grammaticalized, continue to develop new grammatical functions? (Hopper & Traugott 2003: 18), such as the grammaticalization of English to be going to from main verb to future auxiliary in (8-9). Such gradual grammaticalization processes may account for synchronic gradience (Traugott & Trousdale 2010). (8) I [am going to]MAIN V the train station. (9) I [am going to]AUX be a star. Degrees of gradualness and context-sensitivity The different types of category shift mentioned above can be arranged on a continuum, from abrupt to gradual and from context-independent to context-sensitive. While the A > N conversions in (1-2) are abrupt and context-independent processes, shifts from N > A are often gradual and determined by the syntactic environment, as in the case of keyN > keyA in English (10a) and French (10b) (Amiot & Van Goethem 2012; Denison 2001, 2010; De Smet 2012; Van Goethem & De Smet (forthc.)). (10)a. This is a really key point. b. Ceci est un point vraiment cl?. However, similar developments in related languages may be characterized differently, as suggested by a contrastive case study on the adjectival uses of Dutch top and German spitze ?top? (Van Goethem & H?ning 2013). The category change in Dutch (11) seems abrupt, but the German (12) spelling of S/spitze and inflection of the preceding adjective/adverb is suggestive of a gradual development. (11)het was (de) absolute topN / het was absoluut topA ?lit. it was absolute(ly) top? (12)das war absolute SpitzeN / das war absolute spitzeN/A / das war absolut SpitzeN/A / das war absolut spitzeA ?lit. it was absolute(ly) top? Directionality Whereas in earlier work (e.g. Lehmann 1995 [1982], Haspelmath 2004) the view prevailed that only changes from major to minor categories are possible, research on degrammaticalization (Norde 2009) has shown that changes from minor to major word classes, albeit less frequently attested, are possible as well. In addition, specific items have been shown to change categories more than once in the course of their histories, in alternating stages of grammaticalization and degrammaticalization. One example is degrammaticalization of the Dutch numeral suffix -tig ?-ty? into an indefinite quantifier meaning ?dozens?, followed by grammaticalization into an intensifier meaning ?very? (Norde 2006). Another example is the autonomous (adjectival/adverbial) use of Dutch intensifying prefixoids (Booij 2010: 60-61), such as Dutch reuze ?giant?, which underwent multiple category changes (Van Goethem & Hiligsmann, forthc.; Norde & Van Goethem, in prep.), first from noun to intensifying affixoid (13) (grammaticalization) and later on into an adjective/adverb (14-15) (degrammaticalization): (13)Verder kunnen we reuzegoed met elkaar opschieten ?Besides we get along very well (lit. giant-well)? (COW2012) (14)Ik zou het gewoon weg reuze vinden als je eens langs kwam. ?I really think it would be great (lit. giant) if you came by once.? (COW 2012) (15)Reuze bedankt! ?Thanks a lot? Finally, category shift may be ?non-directional?, in the sense that the input and output categories are of the same level, e.g. in shifts from one major word class to the other (examples (1-2)), or the transference of nominal case markers to verbal tense ? aspect markers, such as the shift, in Kala Lagau Ya, from dative marker ?pa to (verbal) completive marker (Blake 2001; examples (16-17)). (16)Nuy ay-pa amal-pa he food-dat mother-dat ?He [went] for food for mother? (17)Ngoeba uzar-am-pa 1dual.inclusive go-dual.incompletive ?We two will go (are endeavouring to go)? The constructional perspective The central aim of the workshop will be to investigate whether category change can be explained more accurately by analyzing it as an instance of ?constructionalization? (Bergs & Diewald 2008; Traugott & Trousdale 2013 (forthc.)), which involves ?a sequence of changes in the form and meaning poles of a construction, whereby new formal configurations come to serve particular functions, and to encode new meanings? (Trousdale & Norde 2013: 36). In this workshop, we welcome both theoretically and empirically oriented papers that account for category change from a constructional perspective. Research questions include, but are not limited to, the following: 1: What is the status of category change in a diachronic construction grammar framework (e.g. Traugott & Trousdale 2013) and how can the different types outlined above be accounted for? Are categories grammatical primitives, or the epiphenomenal result of constructions in the sense of Croft 2001? 2: How can the notions of gradualness and context-sensitivity be modelled in a constructional framework? Does the gradualness of some category shifts imply that categories synchronically form a ?continuous spectrum? (Langacker 1987: 18) or does it merely mean that a given item may belong to two or more categories whereas ?the categories in question can nevertheless be clearly delimited? (Aarts 2007: 242)? 3: Is category change a change in form which together with a change in meaning constitutes a constructionalization change and if so, is it the shift itself or changes in morphosyntactic properties (e.g. decategorialization) that are associated with it? 4: How does the distinction between lexical and grammatical constructionalization link in to the different types of category change (abrupt vs gradual, morphological vs syntactic, context-independent vs context-sensitive, word-level vs construction-level)? 5: Which role can be assigned to the notion of ?category? in constructional networks? References Aarts, B. 2007. Syntactic Gradience. The Nature of Grammatical Indeterminacy. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Amiot, D. & K. Van Goethem 2012. A constructional account of French -cl? 'key' and Dutch sleutel- 'key' as in mot-cl? / sleutelwoord 'keyword'. Morphology 22. 347-364. Bergs, A. & G. Diewald (Eds). 2008. Constructions and Language Change. Berlin / New York: Mouton de Gruyter. Booij, G. 2010. Construction Morphology. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Blake, B. J. 2001. Case. Second edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. COW (Corpora from the web) http://hpsg.fu-berlin.de/cow/colibri/ [ Sch?fer, R. & F. Bildhauer. 2012. Building large corpora from the web using a new effcient tool chain. In N. Calzolari et al. (eds), Proceedings of the Eight International Conference on Language Resources and Evaluation, Istanbul, ELRA, 486?493.] Croft, W. 2001. Radical Construction Grammar. Syntactic theory in typological perspective. Oxford: Oxford University Press. De Smet, H. 2012. The course of actualization. Language 88.3. 601-633. Denison, D. 2001. Gradience and linguistic change. In L. J. Brinton (ed.), Historical linguistics 1999: Selected papers from the 14th International Conference on Historical Linguistics, Vancouver, 9-13 August 1999 (Current Issues in Linguistic Theory 215), 119-44. Amsterdam / Philadelphia: John Benjamins. Denison, D. 2010. Category change in English with and without structural change. In E.C. Traugott & G. Trousdale (eds), Gradience, gradualness and grammaticalization (Typological Studies in Language 90), 105-128. Amsterdam: John Benjamins. Haspelmath, M. 1997. Indefinite pronouns. Oxford : Oxford University Press. Haspelmath, M. 2004. On directionality in language change with particular reference to grammaticalization. In O. Fischer, M. Norde & H. Perridon (eds) Up and down the cline ? the nature of grammaticalization, 17-44. Amsterdam / Philadelphia: John Benjamins. Hopper, P. J. & E. C. Traugott. 2003. Grammaticalization. Second edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Kerleroux, F. 1996. La coupure invisible. ?tudes de syntaxe et de morphologie. Villeneuve d?Ascq: Presses Universitaires du Septentrion. Langacker, R.W. 1987. Foundations of Cognitive Grammar I : Theoretical Prerequisites. Stanford CA : Stanford University Press. Lehmann, Chr. 1995 [1982]. Thoughts on grammaticalization. Munich: Lincom Europa. Norde, M. 2006. Van suffix tot telwoord tot bijwoord: degrammaticalisering en (re)grammaticalisering van tig. Tabu 35. 33-60. Norde, M. 2009. Degrammaticalization. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Norde, M. & K. Van Goethem. in prep. Emancipatie van affixen en affixo?den: degrammaticalisatie of lexicalisatie? Submitted. Traugott, E.C. & G. Trousdale. 2010. Gradience, Gradualness and Grammaticalization. Amsterdam / Philadelphia: John Benjamins. Traugott, E. C. & G. Trousdale. 2013 (Forthc.). Constructionalization and Constructional Changes. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Trousdale G. & M. Norde. 2013. Degrammaticalization and constructionalization: two case studies. Language Sciences 36. 32-46. Van Goethem, K. & H. De Smet. Forthc. How nouns turn into adjectives. The emergence of new adjectives in French, English and Dutch through debonding processes. Languages in Contrast. Van Goethem, K. & Ph. Hiligsmann. Forthc. When two paths converge: debonding and clipping of Dutch reuze ?giant; great?. Journal of Germanic Linguistics. Van Goethem, K. & M. H?ning. 2013. Debonding of Dutch and German compounds. Paper presented at the Germanic Sandwich Conference, Leuven, Jan. 2013. Kristel Van Goethem Chercheuse qualifi?e F.R.S.-FNRS Universit? catholique de Louvain Institut Langage et Communication/P?le Linguistique Coll?ge Erasme Place Blaise Pascal 1, bte L3.03.33 1348 Louvain-la-Neuve bureau c.383 T?l. (0032) 10 47 48 42 kristel.vangoethem at uclouvain.be http://uclouvain.academia.edu/KVanGoethem -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From luraghi at unipv.it Mon Dec 9 10:21:44 2013 From: luraghi at unipv.it (Silvia Luraghi) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:21:44 +0100 Subject: Call for papers - Syntax of the World's Languages VI - Reminder Message-ID: *** Apologies for cross-posting *** The sixth `Syntax of the World's Languages' conference (SWL6) will be held at the University of Pavia, Italy, on 8-10 September 2014. In the same spirit as previous conferences in this series (SWL I - Leipzig 2004, SWL II - Lancaster 2006, SWL III - Berlin 2008, SWL IV - Lyon 2010, and SWL V - Dubrovnik 2012), the conference will provide a forum for linguists working on the syntax of less widely studied languages from a variety of perspectives. The main purpose of the conference is to enlarge our knowledge and understanding of syntactic diversity. Contributions are expected to be based on first-hand data of individual languages or to adopt a broadly comparative perspective. The discussion of theoretical issues is appreciated to the extent that it helps to elucidate the data and is understandable without prior knowledge of the relevant theory. All theoretical frameworks are equally welcome, and papers that adopt a diachronic or comparative perspective are also welcome, as are papers dealing with morphological or semantic issues, as long as syntactic issues also play a major role. Abstracts of no more than one page (plus possibly one additional page for examples), should be sent in PDF format to swl6.conference at gmail.com by January 31st, 2014, with ''SWL6 abstract'' in the subject line (authors will receive notification of acceptance by March 31st, 2014). Submissions should be anonymous and refrain from self-reference. Please provide contact details (name and email address) and the title of your presentation in the body of the email. Participants may not be involved in more than two abstracts, of which at most one may be single-authored. The conference will be held in English and abstracts must be submitted in English. For further information, please visit the conference website at: http://swl-6.wikidot.com/ [] -- Silvia Luraghi Universit? di Pavia Dipartimento di Studi Umanistici, Sezione di Linguistica Teorica e Applicata Strada Nuova 65 I-27100 Pavia tel.: +39/0382/984685 Web page personale: http://lettere.unipv.it/diplinguistica/docenti.php?&id=68 Silvia Luraghi Dipartimento di Studi Umanistici, Sezione di Linguistica Universit? di Pavia Strada Nuova 65 I-27100 Pavia telef.: +39-0382-984685 fax: +39-0382-984487 silvia.luraghi at unipv.it http://lettere.unipv.it/diplinguistica/docenti.php?&id=68 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From luraghi at unipv.it Mon Dec 9 10:25:20 2013 From: luraghi at unipv.it (Silvia Luraghi) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:25:20 +0100 Subject: The Pavia Indo-European Phonological Inventory Database Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, I'm glad to announce the recent publication of the Pavia Indo-European Phonological Inventory Database. You can access it at the address: http://studiumanistici.unipv.it/diplinguistica/pagina.php?id=294 Comments are welcome! Silvia Luraghi Dipartimento di Studi Umanistici, Sezione di Linguistica Universit? di Pavia Strada Nuova 65 I-27100 Pavia telef.: +39-0382-984685 fax: +39-0382-984487 silvia.luraghi at unipv.it http://lettere.unipv.it/diplinguistica/docenti.php?&id=68 _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From micennam at unina.it Wed Dec 11 08:34:14 2013 From: micennam at unina.it (Michela Cennamo) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:34:14 +0100 Subject: Call fo papers for a Workshop Message-ID: Dear Sir, I am a lecturer in Linguistics from Naples University. My name is Michela Cennamo. I am writing to ask you to post on the list the call for papers for a workshop on Voice Systems in Diachrony: a Comparative Perspective, to be held as an adjacent workshop in Pavia, on 11 September 2014, in connection with the SWL6. I enclose the link to the workshop as well as a file with the description of the meeting and the call for papers. http://voice-systems-workshop.wikidot.com/ I thank you for your attention best regards Michela Cennamo ___________________________________ Dept of Arts & Humanities University of Naples Federico II micennam at unina.it -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Voice systems in diachrony-08-12-2013call for papers.doc .doc Type: application/msword Size: 49152 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From kariri at gmail.com Sat Dec 14 06:09:15 2013 From: kariri at gmail.com (Eduardo Ribeiro) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases Message-ID: [apologies for cross-posting] Dear colleagues, I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. (Jespersen 1912:87-88). Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage? I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this topic. Obrigado, Eduardo -- Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From peter.e.hook at gmail.com Sat Dec 14 11:52:38 2013 From: peter.e.hook at gmail.com (Peter Hook) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:52:38 +0900 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Eduardo, There has been copious borrowing of complex noun phrases from Persian into Urdu and Hindi. The phrases are not fixed but they are almost always built using just Persian nouns. All the best, Peter Hook On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Eduardo Ribeiro wrote: > [apologies for cross-posting] > > Dear colleagues, > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > ended up becoming the default usage? > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this topic. > > Obrigado, > > Eduardo > > > -- > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From george.walkden at gmail.com Sat Dec 14 13:10:43 2013 From: george.walkden at gmail.com (George Walkden) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:10:43 +0000 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Eduardo, On the last point - borrowed order becoming default - you may be interested in Ruth King's work on preposition stranding in Prince Edward Island French. King argues that this variety borrowed a bunch of strandable English prepositions, and that the ability to be stranded was only later extended to native prepositions as well, in examples like "Le gars que je te parle de". There's a brief discussion of this work at < http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000032.html>, and the book can be found at < http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Lexical_Basis_of_Grammatical_Borrowi.html?id=7g7VcyrlirwC&redir_esc=y >. Best, - George On Saturday, 14 December 2013, Peter Hook wrote: > Hi Eduardo, > > There has been copious borrowing of complex noun phrases from Persian into > Urdu and Hindi. The phrases are not fixed but they are almost always built > using just Persian nouns. > > All the best, Peter Hook > > > On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Eduardo Ribeiro > > wrote: > >> [apologies for cross-posting] >> >> Dear colleagues, >> >> I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases >> present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more >> common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal >> terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original >> Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >> (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >> >> Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases >> in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, >> ended up becoming the default usage? >> >> I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this >> topic. >> >> Obrigado, >> >> Eduardo >> >> >> -- >> Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >> http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > 'Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu');> >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From lachicadelgorro at hotmail.com Sat Dec 14 20:59:23 2013 From: lachicadelgorro at hotmail.com (Koka) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:59:23 +0100 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Eduardo, A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? nada") in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here (https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). Hope it helps! Carlota > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > From: kariri at gmail.com > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > [apologies for cross-posting] > > Dear colleagues, > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > ended up becoming the default usage? > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this topic. > > Obrigado, > > Eduardo > > > -- > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From Bernd.Heine at uni-koeln.de Sat Dec 14 22:59:43 2013 From: Bernd.Heine at uni-koeln.de (Bernd Heine) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 23:59:43 +0100 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Eduardo, Here are more observations on your two questions. There is a wide range of data on your first question, namely the "borrowing" (or replicating as I would say) of a phrasal word order, see the paper attached: It is widely attested and hence fairly uncontroversial, even if the enitre range of motivations triggering this change is still not really clear. There is less conclusive evidence on your second question, namely whether, or how a replicated pattern expands, and eventually becomes the new default word order. The case of Guern?siais, the Norman dialect of Guernsey Island, may offer some clues to that (Heine 2008: 55-6; Jones 2002: 156; see the paper attached for these references). For good reasons, this case is actually opposite to the one you mention in that a pattern of post-nominal modification may gradually be replaced by pre-nominal modification as a result of language contact. With best wishes, Bernd Am 14.12.2013 21:59, schrieb Koka: > Dear Eduardo, > > A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? > nada") in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to > Latin influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here > (https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > > > Hope it helps! > > Carlota > > > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > From: kariri at gmail.com > > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > [apologies for cross-posting] > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > ended up becoming the default usage? > > > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > topic. > > > > Obrigado, > > > > Eduardo > > > > > > -- > > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -- Bernd Heine FBA Professor Emeritus Nonnenwerthstr. 48 D-50937 K?ln, GERMANY Phone/Fax: +49 221 46 46 09 E-Mail:bernd.heine at uni-koeln.de Web:www.prof-bernd-heine.de -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Word order change(1).pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 322758 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From peter.e.hook at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 05:03:43 2013 From: peter.e.hook at gmail.com (Peter Hook) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:03:43 +0900 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases Message-ID: Hi Eduardo, An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the writer is from]: www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! Cheers, Peter Hook On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > Dear Eduardo, > > A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? nada") > in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > > > Hope it helps! > > Carlota > > > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > From: kariri at gmail.com > > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > > [apologies for cross-posting] > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > ended up becoming the default usage? > > > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > topic. > > > > Obrigado, > > > > Eduardo > > > > > > -- > > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From Maj-Britt.MosegaardHansen at manchester.ac.uk Sun Dec 15 08:49:45 2013 From: Maj-Britt.MosegaardHansen at manchester.ac.uk (Maj-Britt Mosegaard Hansen) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 08:49:45 +0000 Subject: FW: Funding for postgraduate research - University of Manchester In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ________________________________ The Department of Linguistics and English Language at the University of Manchester, UK, invites applications from outstanding students for 2014-15 entry (start September 2014) for the following degree programmes: - PhD in English Language (3 years) - PhD in Linguistics (3 years) - 1+3 (MA + PhD) programme in Linguistics / English Language (4 years) High-ranking applications will be eligible for a range of competitive scholarships. Summaries of the eligibility criteria for each award, submission dates and additional links are provided further below. Please visit http://www.alc.manchester.ac.uk/fees/postgraduate-research-funding/ for details of the application process and further information. The Department of Linguistics and English Language is an international centre for Linguistics and English Language, with 20 full-time members of staff and approximately 30 Postgraduate Research students. It is unique in the UK and beyond in the breadth of subject areas and theoretical approaches represented by its members, many of whom are internationally renowned scholars in their specialisms. Areas of expertise include phonetics and phonology, morphology, syntax (lexical-functional grammar, role and reference grammar, construction grammar, and minimalism), (formal) semantics, pragmatics, historical linguistics, dialectology, language contact, variational sociolinguistics, first language acquisition, field linguistics and language documentation, typology, and quantitative corpus-based approaches. In their research, members of the department combine the advancement of theoretical approaches with a strong concern for their empirical and methodological foundations. For more information about the research interests of individual members of staff and current postgraduate students, please visit http://www.alc.manchester.ac.uk/subjects/lel/. Note that we cannot normally supervise projects with a primary focus on second language teaching and learning. PhD students in Linguistics and English Language are part of the diverse and dynamic postgraduate community in the new Graduate School of the School of Arts, Languages and Cultures, and an outstanding and collegial research environment in the department. Students enjoy access to excellent library and IT resources and training provision which also includes the possibility of accessing training and facilities at the partner institutions, Lancaster University and Liverpool University. PhD Funding is available from the following sources ? follow the links for further information: The President's Doctoral Scholar (PDS) Competition Eligibility: students of all nationalities and research areas starting in September 2013. The Award covers tuition fees (home/EU or international, as appropriate) and the equivalent of the research council stipend (?13,726 in 2013-14). Apply for a place on the PhD programme by Friday 31 January 2014. Apply for the PDS award by Friday 21 February 2014. Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) Competition Eligibility: UK and EU students intending to take a PhD degree (+3) or an MA followed by a PhD (1+3) in an area related to the Social Sciences (including some subfields of linguistics). The award covers tuition fees and an annual maintenance stipend of ?13,863 for UK residents and EU nationals who have lived in the UK for three years, and tuition fees only for EU residents. Apply for a place on the PhD programme by Friday 17 January 2014. Apply for the ESRC award by Monday 3 February 2014. The University of Manchester is a member of the ESRC's North West Doctoral Training College (DTC), which receives the largest number of ESRC PhD studentships in England. Arts and Humanities Research Council (AHRC) Competition Eligibility: UK and EU students intending to take a PhD degree (3 years) or an MA followed by a PhD (1+3) in an area of Arts and Humanities (including linguistics). The award covers tuition fees and an annual maintenance stipend of ?13,863 for UK residents and EU nationals who have lived in the UK for three years, and tuition fees only for EU residents. Apply for a place on the PhD programme by Friday 31 January 2014. Apply for the AHRC award by 5pm on Friday 21 February 2014. Applicants will be notified of the outcome of their application by 14th April 2014. The University of Manchester is a member of the AHRC-funded North West Consortium Doctoral Training Partnership (NWCDTP). In addition to the above awards, the School offers a number of Graduate Scholarships. These School awards are open to both Home/EU and Overseas students, and often come with the opportunity to teach or assist in research-related activities. Additional information about the application process for these awards will be found und [Highlight] er http://www.alc.manchester.ac.uk/fees/postgraduate-research-funding/. Informal inquiries about potential research topics and the academic side of the application process can be directed to the department?s Postgraduate Research Programme director, Prof Eva Schultze-Berndt (Eva.Schultze-Berndt at manchester.ac.uk). For questions about the administrative side of the application process, please contact Phdsalc at manchester.ac.uk. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From j.t.faarlund at iln.uio.no Sun Dec 15 10:04:41 2013 From: j.t.faarlund at iln.uio.no (Jan Terje Faarlund) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:04:41 +0100 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On a slightly different level: Scandinavian, being VO languages, have passive participles followed by an agent PP, as in English /The bill is passed by Parliament/. If a participle, as an adjective, is used to modify a noun it will precede the noun, still as in English, or follow the noun if it is followed by a PP: /A bill passed by Parliament/. However, in a certain bureaucratic style, the PP may precede the participle, which again precedes the noun: /En av Stortinget vedtatt lov/ 'a by Parliament passed bill'. This pattern is obviously borrowed from German (an OV language), and it occurs in writing only. Best, Jan Terje ---- Professor Jan Terje Faarlund Centre for the Study of Mind in Nature University of Oslo Mailing address: CSMN P.O. Box 1020 Blindern NO-0315 Oslo Norway Tel. (+47) 22 85 69 49 (office) (+47) 47 82 80 01 (mobile) > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) > phrases > > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the > original > > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > ended up becoming the default usage? > > > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on > this topic. > > > > Obrigado, > > > > Eduardo > > > > > > -- > > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From hopper at cmu.edu Sun Dec 15 12:46:42 2013 From: hopper at cmu.edu (Paul Hopper) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928. les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? Paul > Hi Eduardo, > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the > writer is from]: > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine il > y > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > Cheers, > > Peter Hook > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > >> Dear Eduardo, >> >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? >> nada") >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >> >> >> Hope it helps! >> >> Carlota >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >> >> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >> > >> > Dear colleagues, >> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, >> > ended up becoming the default usage? >> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this >> topic. >> > >> > Obrigado, >> > >> > Eduardo >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Histling-l mailing list >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > -- Paul J. Hopper, Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, University of Pittsburgh Senior External Fellow, School of Linguistics and Literature, Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany Publications: Message-ID: Apologies: I just replied to this message to the wrong list. That time of the year I suppose. Don't know how it happened. Here is the proper reply to the right list: One might note that preposition stranding isn't typical (though I have been told by a distinguished native speaking syntactician that it can occur in Dutch) of the Germanic languages with OV order in prepositional phrases (i.e. Continental West Germanic), but of those with VO, which means essentially English and North Germanic. Syntactic borrowing from any of the Germanic languages where stranding is characteristic seems odd in Parisian French, where there is no contact situation of the type that would conduce to syntactic borrowing. Unless one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas). I'm not a Romanist but considering the increasing isolation of Anglo-French from Continental French during the Middle Ages, any transfer from English would seem very peculiar. North Germanic is out of the question of course. RL -----Original Message----- From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hopper Sent: 15 December 2013 02:47 PM To: Peter Hook Cc: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; lista Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928. les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? Paul > Hi Eduardo, > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where > the writer is from]: > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine > il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > Cheers, > > Peter Hook > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > >> Dear Eduardo, >> >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? >> nada") >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informat iva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >> >> >> Hope it helps! >> >> Carlota >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >> > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >> >> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >> > >> > Dear colleagues, >> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >> > phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a >> > more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, >> > legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >> > original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >> > cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >> > lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage? >> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >> > this >> topic. >> > >> > Obrigado, >> > >> > Eduardo >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Histling-l mailing list >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > -- Paul J. Hopper, Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, University of Pittsburgh Senior External Fellow, School of Linguistics and Literature, Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany Publications: Message-ID: One more apology. Bad day. In opening sentence read 'subordinate clauses' for 'prepositional phrases'. Those of you who know me might suspect I do know the difference. RL -----Original Message----- From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Lass Sent: 15 December 2013 03:23 PM To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases Apologies: I just replied to this message to the wrong list. That time of the year I suppose. Don't know how it happened. Here is the proper reply to the right list: One might note that preposition stranding isn't typical (though I have been told by a distinguished native speaking syntactician that it can occur in Dutch) of the Germanic languages with OV order in prepositional phrases (i.e. Continental West Germanic), but of those with VO, which means essentially English and North Germanic. Syntactic borrowing from any of the Germanic languages where stranding is characteristic seems odd in Parisian French, where there is no contact situation of the type that would conduce to syntactic borrowing. Unless one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas). I'm not a Romanist but considering the increasing isolation of Anglo-French from Continental French during the Middle Ages, any transfer from English would seem very peculiar. North Germanic is out of the question of course. RL -----Original Message----- From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hopper Sent: 15 December 2013 02:47 PM To: Peter Hook Cc: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; lista Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928. les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? Paul > Hi Eduardo, > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where > the writer is from]: > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine > il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > Cheers, > > Peter Hook > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > >> Dear Eduardo, >> >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? >> nada") >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informat iva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >> >> >> Hope it helps! >> >> Carlota >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >> > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >> >> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >> > >> > Dear colleagues, >> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >> > phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a >> > more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, >> > legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >> > original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >> > cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >> > lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage? >> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >> > this >> topic. >> > >> > Obrigado, >> > >> > Eduardo >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Histling-l mailing list >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > -- Paul J. Hopper, Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, University of Pittsburgh Senior External Fellow, School of Linguistics and Literature, Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany Publications: Message-ID: Peter Hook, Eduardo: Background: I am an older speaker of European French, living in Eastern Canada (mostly in an English-speaking environment but also in contact with local French). My impression is that European French is nowadays very much influenced by *written* English (as seen in newspaper articles, etc hastily translated from American ones), while Canadian French has long been influenced by *spoken* North American English, which Canadian francophones hear (and often speak) a lot of. Your example: "Il y en avait assez pour faire une tarte AVEC" 'There was enough to make a pie WITH' This seems to be a calque of spoken English structure, so probably from Canada. I would probably say "Il y en avait assez pour faire une tarte" 'There was enough to make a pie' (no preposition) or more idiomatically "Il en restait DE quoi faire une tarte" 'There was enough left to make a pie'. (Note preposition DE, not AVEC) Nevertheless I don't find the sentence totally strange because AVEC (unlike other prepositions) can occur at the end of a sentence, but in places where English would not place a preposition alone: Example: - Il reste beaucoup de p?te. Qu'est-ce qu'on fait AVEC? 'There's a lot of dough left. What do we do WITH IT?' (- On pourrait faire une tarte. 'We could make a pie.'). Note the contrast with - Qu'est-ce qu'on fait AVEC ?A? 'What do you/we do WITH THIS?' An unrelated example with WITH: In some parts of Canada with a large population of German origin, people say: - Are you coming WITH? (not "... WITH ME/US") 'Are you coming along?' a calque of German - Kommst du MIT? (verb mit(-)kommen) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:03:43 +0900 From: peter.e.hook at gmail.com To: kariri at gmail.com CC: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases Hi Eduardo, An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the writer is from]: www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authorsMmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine il y en avait assez pour faire une tarte avec ! Cheers, Peter Hook On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: Dear Eduardo, A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? nada") in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here (https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). Hope it helps! Carlota > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > From: kariri at gmail.com > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > [apologies for cross-posting] > > Dear colleagues, > > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > ended up becoming the default usage? > > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this topic. > > Obrigado, > > Eduardo > > > -- > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From goldenratio at earthlink.net Sun Dec 15 14:08:01 2013 From: goldenratio at earthlink.net (Jess Tauber) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 09:08:01 -0500 Subject: Bantu issues Message-ID: Does anyone know of any detailed studies of phonosemantics in Bantu languages? I've been using a new method involving statistics mapping forms against meanings in particular semantic domains, and patterns are jumping out as fast as I can work, but I want to see what others have written. I'm also looking at root extensions, the less productive ones like -ama- 'positional' rather than the voice-related forms. Anyone looking at these from a systemic perspective? I'm getting the sense that they are more of a posture-based set that dovetails with notions of rank, dominance, etc. For ex. the aforementioned -ama- in dictionaries I'm consulting far more often than not associates with slanting, leaning, stooping where the upper part of some entity has lateral play while its lower part does not, thus able to affect other entities within reach. Anyway, just asking. Please contact me at goldenratio at earthlink dot net. Thanks much. Best wishes to all for a safe and happy holiday season, Jess Tauber _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From mltarpent at hotmail.com Sun Dec 15 15:59:37 2013 From: mltarpent at hotmail.com (Marie-Lucie Tarpent) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:59:37 -0400 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Paul Hopper: About Bauche's examples: (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he slept with) This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" is not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couch?", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in writing. (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him' Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I ran after him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it' A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): so perhaps a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for THAT' b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.' c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. As for the next and most recent example: (4) j'y suis pour it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite could be true). marie-lucie > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > From: hopper at cmu.edu > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, > 1928. > > les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? > je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? > tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > Paul > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the > > writer is from]: > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine il > > y > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > Cheers, > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > >> > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? > >> nada") > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > >> > >> > >> Hope it helps! > >> > >> Carlota > >> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > >> > >> > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > >> > > >> > Dear colleagues, > >> > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > >> > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > >> > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > >> topic. > >> > > >> > Obrigado, > >> > > >> > Eduardo > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Histling-l mailing list > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Histling-l mailing list > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > -- > Paul J. Hopper, > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > Department of English, > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > Carnegie Mellon University, > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > University of Pittsburgh > > Senior External Fellow, > School of Linguistics and Literature, > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > Publications: > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From geoffnathan at wayne.edu Sun Dec 15 16:17:26 2013 From: geoffnathan at wayne.edu (Geoffrey Steven Nathan) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:17:26 -0500 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years ago, let me clarify. We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..) asked the waiter: Si je peux vous poser une question? The waiter replied: Je suis l? pour. I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French (fran?ais avanc? as they like to say...) Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marie-Lucie Tarpent" > To: hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > Paul Hopper: > About Bauche's examples: > (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... > that he slept with) > This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used > as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than > Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a > couch?" is not only much more difficult to use (because of the > gender/number agreement) but similar in tone and register to English > "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque of French). An > intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couch?", common > in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in > writing. > (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him' > Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French > sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' > or 'I (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a > relationship)("lui" as an oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the > same for both genders). For 'I ran after him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s > lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted as above, although > possibly so depending on the context. > (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it' > A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to > use "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much > earlier). "T'as pas travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am > not familiar with this usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the > usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): so perhaps > a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't > work for THAT' > b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked > for.' > c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which > was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' > The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= > uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is > more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. > As for the next and most recent example: > (4) j'y suis pour > it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most > likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am > here for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular > structure. (Or the opposite could be true). > marie-lucie > > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > > From: hopper at cmu.edu > > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage > > populaire. > > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le > > parle > > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: > > Payot, > > 1928. > > > > les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? > > je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? > > tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" > > > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a > > waiter as > > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of > > > where the > > > writer is from]: > > > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la > > > semaine il > > > y > > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > > >> > > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No > > >> s? > > >> nada") > > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to > > >> Latin > > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > > >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > > >> > > >> > > >> Hope it helps! > > >> > > >> Carlota > > >> > > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; > > >> > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > >> > > >> > > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > > >> > > > >> > Dear colleagues, > > >> > > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) > > >> > phrases > > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a > > >> > more > > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, > > >> > legal > > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the > > >> > original > > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > >> > > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of > > >> > cases > > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed > > >> > lexemes, > > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > > >> > > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references > > >> > on this > > >> topic. > > >> > > > >> > Obrigado, > > >> > > > >> > Eduardo > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Histling-l mailing list > > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Histling-l mailing list > > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Histling-l mailing list > > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul J. Hopper, > > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > > Department of English, > > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > > Carnegie Mellon University, > > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > > University of Pittsburgh > > > > Senior External Fellow, > > School of Linguistics and Literature, > > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > > > Publications: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From george.walkden at gmail.com Sun Dec 15 17:08:10 2013 From: george.walkden at gmail.com (George Walkden) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 17:08:10 +0000 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: <145978352.6149784.1387124246808.JavaMail.root@wayne.edu> Message-ID: Dear all, In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a paper arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not due to contact - with several responses. Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps not normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here. - George On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: > As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years ago, let me clarify. > > We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..) asked the waiter: > > Si je peux vous poser une question? > > The waiter replied: > > Je suis l? pour. > > I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French (fran?ais avanc? as they like to say...) > > Geoff > > Geoffrey S. Nathan > Faculty Liaison, C&IT > and Professor, Linguistics Program > http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) > > Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. > > > From: "Marie-Lucie Tarpent" > To: hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > Paul Hopper: > > About Bauche's examples: > > (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he slept with) > > This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" is not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couch?", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in writing. > > (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him' > > Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I ran after him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. > > (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it' > > A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): so perhaps > a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for THAT' > b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.' > c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' > > The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. > > As for the next and most recent example: > > (4) j'y suis pour > > it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite could be true). > > marie-lucie > > > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > > From: hopper at cmu.edu > > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle > > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, > > 1928. > > > > les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? > > je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? > > tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" > > > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the > > > writer is from]: > > > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine il > > > y > > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > > >> > > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? > > >> nada") > > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > > >>https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > > >> > > >> > > >> Hope it helps! > > >> > > >> Carlota > > >> > > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > >> > > >> > > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > > >> > > > >> > Dear colleagues, > > >> > > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > >> > > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > > >> > > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > > >> topic. > > >> > > > >> > Obrigado, > > >> > > > >> > Eduardo > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Histling-l mailing list > > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Histling-l mailing list > > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Histling-l mailing list > > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul J. Hopper, > > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > > Department of English, > > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > > Carnegie Mellon University, > > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > > University of Pittsburgh > > > > Senior External Fellow, > > School of Linguistics and Literature, > > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > > > Publications: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From thomason at umich.edu Sun Dec 15 17:18:21 2013 From: thomason at umich.edu (Sarah Thomason) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 09:18:21 -0800 Subject: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: <6E76C825-045D-4998-82B5-01E5696D417A@gmail.com> Message-ID: But that paper in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition is written by people who don't believe that change in frequency is change. It's a very odd belief, and it would rule out any change from a more restricted set of environments to a "default" status -- for those authors such a change wouldn't count as any kind of change, no matter how contact-induced it was. -- Sally Thomason On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:08 AM, George Walkden wrote: > Dear all, > > In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a paper > arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not due to > contact - with several responses. > > < > https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02 > > > > Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps not > normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The > issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here. > > - George > > > On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: > > As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several > years ago, let me clarify. > > We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France > about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know > her..) asked the waiter: > > Si je peux vous poser une question? > > The waiter replied: > > Je suis l? pour. > > I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and > Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around > here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary > French (fran?ais avanc? as they like to say...) > > Geoff > > Geoffrey S. Nathan > Faculty Liaison, C&IT > and Professor, Linguistics Program > http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) > > Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it > to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. > > > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" > *To: *hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > *Sent: *Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM > *Subject: *Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > Paul Hopper: > > About Bauche's examples: > > (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that > he slept with) > > This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a > single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The > formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" is not only much > more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar > in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a > calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a > couch?", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, > especially in writing. > > (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him' > > Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French > sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I > (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an > oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I > ran after him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s lui/elle" would be less likely to be > interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. > > (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it' > > A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne > ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas > travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage > of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in > (1)): so perhaps > a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't work > for THAT' > b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked > for.' > c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which was > mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' > > The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= > uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more > likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. > > As for the next and most recent example: > > (4) j'y suis pour > > it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most > likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here > for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or > the opposite could be true). > > marie-lucie > > > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > > From: hopper at cmu.edu > > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle > > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: > Payot, > > 1928. > > > > les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? > > je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? > > tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" > > > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where > the > > > writer is from]: > > > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine > il > > > y > > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > > >> > > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? > > >> nada") > > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > > >> > https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_ > ). > > >> > > >> > > >> Hope it helps! > > >> > > >> Carlota > > >> > > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > ; > > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > >> > > >> > > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > > >> > > > >> > Dear colleagues, > > >> > > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) > phrases > > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the > original > > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > >> > > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > > >> > > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > > >> topic. > > >> > > > >> > Obrigado, > > >> > > > >> > Eduardo > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Histling-l mailing list > > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Histling-l mailing list > > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Histling-l mailing list > > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul J. Hopper, > > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > > Department of English, > > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > > Carnegie Mellon University, > > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > > University of Pittsburgh > > > > Senior External Fellow, > > School of Linguistics and Literature, > > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > > > Publications: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From paoram at unipv.it Sun Dec 15 18:21:18 2013 From: paoram at unipv.it (Paolo Ramat) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 19:21:18 +0100 Subject: FW: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: <000401cef99c$0db73d10$2925b730$@iafrica.com> Message-ID: Very interesting discussion! Point 1.: "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for" (Paul Hopper, 15 XII '13). Impossible in Italian:**Io sono per (perhaps acceptable: ??'Io sono pro', as answer to a question such as 'Sei pro o contro/contra ?', whereby *pro* is not an Ital. preposition, but a latinism -as *contra* !) Point 2.: I think Roger Lass is right when he writes (15 XII '13) "Unless one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas)." The postposition of *avec* is quite usual in Mod. colloquial French, not only in Canada, and it is plausible that "[t]he origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out r e c e n t [my emphasis] calques from English, and is more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax"(M.-L. Tarpent; cp. Hopper: "This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject). As a metter of fact, we find already in mdiaeval French *Dont m'en porteras tu avoec * 'Alors tu m'emportera avec' (Le jeu de St. Nicolas , Jehan Bodel 1201), not possible in Ital.: **"Allora tu mi porterai con". The so-called Preposition stranding (1) is rare in Italian: 'je lui ai couru apr?s' ?I ran after him?(ex. of P.Hopper) = Ital. "gli sono corso dietro" is OK, but not **"tu non hai lavorato per" as transl. of 'tu n?as pas travaill? pour' "You didn't work for it". Already OFr. "...qu'otot le cheval l'a mis jus" ( Partenopeu de Blois), lit. ...that all the horse has put down, i.e. "...qu'il l'a abattu avec son cheval" . This could hardly be translated into Italian with "...che lo ha buttato gi? col suo cavallo". The 'preposition stranding' (not only of *avec*!: see *apr?s*, etc.) could be another example of Germanic influence on French and other Rom. languages (see, e.g. ON. Eirikr hinn Raidhi 'Erik the Red' , OHG. kuningin thia richun (Otfr. I 3.31)'the mighty queen', Lorenzo il Magnifico, and Karl der Grosse vs. the Romance type Charlemagne: but this is another story which, however, could be an answer to Eduardo's question concerning borrowed word orders compared to a more common, inherited type). (1) Properly speaking, *avec* (< Lat. apud hoc) is not a preposition but an adverbial which can occur with a verb (e.g. je viens avec), as well as with a noun -assuming in this second case the function of a PREP: avec mon couteau (?? mon couteau avec) 'with my knife'. Best season's greetings to anyone of the histling! Paolo Ramat Prof.Paolo Ramat Universit? di Pavia Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) -----Messaggio originale----- From: Roger Lass Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:46 PM To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Subject: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases -----Original Message (restaured) ----- From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Lass Sent: 15 December 2013 03:23 PM To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases One might note that preposition stranding isn't typical (though I have been told by a distinguished native speaking syntactician that it can occur in Dutch) of the Germanic languages with OV order in subordinate clauses (i.e. Continental West Germanic), but of those with VO, which means essentially English and North Germanic. Syntactic borrowing from any of the Germanic languages where stranding is characteristic seems odd in Parisian French, where there is no contact situation of the type that would conduce to syntactic borrowing. Unless one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas). I'm not a Romanist but considering the increasing isolation of Anglo-French from Continental French during the Middle Ages, any transfer from English would seem very peculiar. North Germanic is out of the question of course. RL -----Original Message----- From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hopper Sent: 15 December 2013 02:47 PM To: Peter Hook Cc: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; lista Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928. les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? Paul > Hi Eduardo, > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where > the writer is from]: > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine > il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > Cheers, > > Peter Hook > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > >> Dear Eduardo, >> >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? >> nada") >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informat iva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >> >> >> Hope it helps! >> >> Carlota >> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >> > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >> >> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >> > >> > Dear colleagues, >> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >> > phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a >> > more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, >> > legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >> > original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >> > cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >> > lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage? >> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >> > this >> topic. >> > >> > Obrigado, >> > >> > Eduardo >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Histling-l mailing list >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > -- Paul J. Hopper, Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, University of Pittsburgh Senior External Fellow, School of Linguistics and Literature, Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany Publications: Message-ID: Dr Ramat, Thank you for your comments on my answer to Paul Hopper. Geoffrey Nathan sent a subsequent email and I responded, but I did not mean to send it to him alone, so below I am forwarding my exchange with him. I am glad to learn the origin of "avec", which I did not know. m-l From: mltarpent at hotmail.com To: geoffnathan at wayne.edu Subject: RE: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:26:35 -0400 Thank you, Geoff Nathan! "Je suis l? pour" sounds much more authentic than the previously reported "J'y suis pour", where "y" would refer to a known location, or at least of something previously mentioned or understood. I have no doubt that you reported the sentence correctly, since I have must have heard the structure many times in France, with various Subject pronouns. Your waiter would not have needed to know English to adopt a widespread phrase modelled on English structure, but as examples accumulate I think that at least here the preposition-last structure here is not a case of preposition-stranding on the English model but more generally a case of omission of final ?A, not only in - Je suis l? pour (?a)! 'That's what I am here for!' but for instance in - Les films japonais, j'adore! 'I love Japanese movies!' where the Object is at least understood if not actually stated as Topic. In my youth such sentences sounded pretentious. They were (at least in my experience) associated with a certain type of upper- or almost-upper-class young women, but they must have become more widespread, rejoining the "popular speech" examples quoted by Paul Hopper. The omission of ?A 'that, it' may be due to the fact that it still has a negative connotation. As a "popular" abbreviation of CELA - still used by only in a high register - it was long frowned upon even in speech. I hardly ever use "cela" except if I need to adopt a formal tone (such as in academic writing), but for instance when Le Monde translates "X (number of) readers recommend this" as "X lecteurs recommandent ?a", "?a" here sounds to me as inappropriately derogatory, not neutral like English "this". But my point of view is probably very old-fashioned (I am retired). Going back to: - Je suis l? pour (?a)! 'That's what I am here for!' what about the (recent?) "that's-less" structure in English: - X (writes a comment on a blog). - Y (commenting on X's comment): What X said! (= I agree, I could have said the same thing). marie-lucie Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:17:26 -0500 From: geoffnathan at wayne.edu To: mltarpent at hotmail.com CC: hopper at cmu.edu; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years ago, let me clarify. We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..) asked the waiter: Si je peux vous poser une question? The waiter replied: Je suis l? pour. I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French (fran?ais avanc? as they like to say...) Geoff Geoffrey S. Nathan Faculty Liaison, C&IT and Professor, Linguistics Program http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. From: "Marie-Lucie Tarpent" To: hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, histling-l at mailman.rice.edu Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases Paul Hopper: About Bauche's examples: (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he slept with) This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" is not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couch?", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in writing. (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him' Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I ran after him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it' A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): so perhaps a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for THAT' b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.' c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. As for the next and most recent example: (4) j'y suis pour it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite could be true). marie-lucie > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > From: hopper at cmu.edu > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, > 1928. > > les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? > je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? > tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > Paul > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the > > writer is from]: > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine il > > y > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > Cheers, > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > >> > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? > >> nada") > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > >> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). > >> > >> > >> Hope it helps! > >> > >> Carlota > >> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > >> > >> > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > >> > > >> > Dear colleagues, > >> > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > >> > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > >> > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > >> topic. > >> > > >> > Obrigado, > >> > > >> > Eduardo > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Histling-l mailing list > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Histling-l mailing list > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > -- > Paul J. Hopper, > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > Department of English, > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > Carnegie Mellon University, > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > University of Pittsburgh > > Senior External Fellow, > School of Linguistics and Literature, > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > Publications: > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From remy.viredaz at bluewin.ch Sun Dec 15 23:26:06 2013 From: remy.viredaz at bluewin.ch (=?ISO-8859-1?B?UulteQ==?= Viredaz) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 00:26:06 +0100 Subject: Word order in phrases - J'y suis pour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, Although I've never heard "J'y suis pour", I think it means "I'm just about to do it" (or even "I've already begun to do it", but perhaps only as an hyperbole). I have heard (in a movie, perhaps) the construction "il va pour + infinitive" in the meaning "il s'appr?te ?". Perhaps there is a variant "il est pour ..." in the same meaning, hence in the first person "J'y suis pour", where "y" will be the anaphoric representing the infinitive of the preceding sentence (said by the customer). I'm not sure because "il va pour..", "il est pour..." are not used here in Switzerland (in this meaning). And it would be important to know whether the phrase was heard in France or in Quebec, where they tend to borrow English syntax. As for the other examples: "Il lui a couru apr?s" is for me the normal way to say it ("il a couru apr?s lui" is possible but not usual) "T'as pas travaill? pour" ("n'" would no longer be used nowadays) is not usual, but there is the phrase "C'est ?tudi? pour" (C'est e'tudie' pour) in a famous comical sketch of the mid 20th century ("That's designed for that", i.e. for that purpose). The grammatical construction (I'm not speaking of the content) in "Les femmes qu'il a couch? avec" sounds very low-level (populaire), but on the other hand, "Les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" sounds a bit high-nosed; this is the correct or standard construction in writing, but it is not usual in colloquial speech. As you Paolo remark, "avec" and "apr?s" are adverbs and not only prepositions. English influence is totally unlikely in all these examples. Now I'm not a specialist in French, just an informant among others, so to speak. Best, R?my Viredaz, Geneva remy.viredaz at bluewin.ch Le 15.12.13 23:03, ??histling-l-request at mailman.rice.edu?? a ?crit?: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: FW: Borrowed word order in phrases (Paolo Ramat) > 2. FW: Borrowed word order in phrases (Marie-Lucie Tarpent) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 19:21:18 +0100 > From: "Paolo Ramat" > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases > To: "Roger Lass" , > Cc: paolo.ramat at unipv.it > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; > reply-type=original > > Very interesting discussion! > Point 1.: "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for" (Paul > Hopper, 15 XII '13). Impossible in Italian:**Io sono per (perhaps > acceptable: ??'Io sono pro', as answer to a question such as 'Sei pro o > contro/contra ?', whereby *pro* is not an Ital. preposition, but a > latinism -as *contra* !) > Point 2.: I think Roger Lass is right when he writes (15 XII '13) "Unless > one would like to think of this as an early mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing > (the last time there was extensive contact between English and French), > imported into Continental French (and not Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and > transferred from less prestigious to more prestigious dialect-areas)." The > postposition of *avec* is quite usual in Mod. colloquial French, not only in > Canada, and it is plausible that "[t]he origin of the preposition-last > construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out r e c e n > t [my emphasis] calques from English, and is more likely to be found in > extensions of popular syntax"(M.-L. Tarpent; cp. Hopper: "This is a very > common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, > ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject). > As a metter of fact, we find already in mdiaeval French *Dont m'en porteras > tu avoec * 'Alors tu m'emportera avec' (Le jeu de St. Nicolas , Jehan Bodel > 1201), not possible in Ital.: **"Allora tu mi porterai con". The so-called > Preposition stranding (1) is rare in Italian: 'je lui ai couru apr?s' ?I > ran after him?(ex. of P.Hopper) = Ital. "gli sono corso dietro" is OK, but > not **"tu non hai lavorato per" as transl. of 'tu n?as pas travaill? pour' > "You didn't work for it". > Already OFr. "...qu'otot le cheval l'a mis jus" ( Partenopeu de Blois), lit. > ...that all the horse has put down, i.e. "...qu'il l'a abattu avec son > cheval" . This could hardly be translated into Italian with "...che lo ha > buttato gi? col suo cavallo". > The 'preposition stranding' (not only of *avec*!: see *apr?s*, etc.) could > be another example of Germanic influence on French and other Rom. languages > (see, e.g. ON. Eirikr hinn Raidhi 'Erik the Red' , OHG. kuningin thia richun > (Otfr. I 3.31)'the mighty queen', Lorenzo il Magnifico, and > Karl der Grosse vs. the Romance type Charlemagne: but this is another story > which, however, could be an answer to Eduardo's question concerning > borrowed word orders compared to a more common, inherited type). > > (1) Properly speaking, *avec* (< Lat. apud hoc) is not a preposition but an > adverbial which can occur with a verb (e.g. je viens avec), as well as with > a noun -assuming in this second case the function of a PREP: avec mon > couteau (?? mon couteau avec) 'with my knife'. > > Best season's greetings to anyone of the histling! > Paolo Ramat > > Prof.Paolo Ramat > Universit? di Pavia > Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS Pavia) > > -----Messaggio originale----- > From: Roger Lass > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 2:46 PM > To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Subject: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases > > > -----Original Message (restaured) ----- > From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu > [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Roger Lass > Sent: 15 December 2013 03:23 PM > To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > One might note that preposition stranding isn't typical (though I have been > told by a distinguished native speaking syntactician that it can occur in > Dutch) of the Germanic languages with OV order in subordinate clauses > (i.e. Continental West Germanic), but of those with VO, which means > essentially English and North Germanic. Syntactic borrowing from any of the > Germanic languages where stranding is characteristic seems odd in Parisian > French, where there is no contact situation of the type that would conduce > to syntactic borrowing. Unless one would like to think of this as an early > mediaeval Anglo-French borrowing (the last time there was extensive contact > between English and French), imported into Continental French (and not > Norman, but Isle de la Cite, and transferred from less prestigious to more > prestigious dialect-areas). I'm not a Romanist but considering the > increasing isolation of Anglo-French from Continental French during the > Middle Ages, any transfer from English would seem very peculiar. North > Germanic is out of the question of course. > RL > > > -----Original Message----- > From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu > [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hopper > Sent: 15 December 2013 02:47 PM > To: Peter Hook > Cc: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; lista > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle dans > le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, 1928. > > les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? > je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? > tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > Paul > > > > > > >> Hi Eduardo, >> >> An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where >> the writer is from]: >> >> www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... >> Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors >> Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine >> il y en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! >> >> Cheers, >> >> Peter Hook >> >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: >> >>> Dear Eduardo, >>> >>> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? >>> nada") >>> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >>> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >>> > https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informat > iva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >>> >>> >>> Hope it helps! >>> >>> Carlota >>> >>>> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >>>> From: kariri at gmail.com >>>> To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >>>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >>> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >>>> Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>> >>>> >>>> [apologies for cross-posting] >>>> >>>> Dear colleagues, >>>> >>>> I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >>>> phrases present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a >>>> more common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, >>>> legal terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >>>> original Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >>>> (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >>>> >>>> Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >>>> cases in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >>>> lexemes, ended up becoming the default usage? >>>> >>>> I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >>>> this >>> topic. >>>> >>>> Obrigado, >>>> >>>> Eduardo >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >>>> http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Histling-l mailing list >>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >> > > > -- > Paul J. Hopper, > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, Department of > English, Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, Carnegie Mellon > University, Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > University of Pittsburgh > > Senior External Fellow, > School of Linguistics and Literature, > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > Publications: > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 18:03:16 -0400 > From: Marie-Lucie Tarpent > Subject: [Histling-l] FW: Borrowed word order in phrases > To: , , > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Dr Ramat, > > Thank you for your comments on my answer to Paul Hopper. Geoffrey Nathan sent > a subsequent email and I responded, but I did not mean to send it to him > alone, so below I am forwarding my exchange with him. > > I am glad to learn the origin of "avec", which I did not know. > > m-l > > > > From: mltarpent at hotmail.com > To: geoffnathan at wayne.edu > Subject: RE: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:26:35 -0400 > > > > > Thank you, Geoff Nathan! > > "Je suis l? pour" sounds much more authentic than the previously reported "J'y > suis pour", where "y" would refer to a known location, or at least of > something previously mentioned or understood. I have no doubt that you > reported the sentence correctly, since I have must have heard the structure > many times in France, with various Subject pronouns. > > Your waiter would not have needed to know English to adopt a widespread phrase > modelled on English structure, but as examples accumulate I think that at > least here the preposition-last structure here is not a case of > preposition-stranding on the English model but more generally a case of > omission of final ?A, not only in > > - Je suis l? pour (?a)! 'That's what I am here for!' > > but for instance in > > - Les films japonais, j'adore! 'I love Japanese movies!' > > where the Object is at least understood if not actually stated as Topic. In > my youth such sentences sounded pretentious. They were (at least in my > experience) associated with a certain type of upper- or almost-upper-class > young women, but they must have become more widespread, rejoining the "popular > speech" examples quoted by Paul Hopper. > > The omission of ?A 'that, it' may be due to the fact that it still has a > negative connotation. As a "popular" abbreviation of CELA - still used by > only in a high register - it was long frowned upon even in speech. I hardly > ever use "cela" except if I need to adopt a formal tone (such as in academic > writing), but for instance when Le Monde translates "X (number of) readers > recommend this" as "X lecteurs recommandent ?a", "?a" here sounds to me as > inappropriately derogatory, not neutral like English "this". But my point of > view is probably very old-fashioned (I am retired). > > Going back to: > > - Je suis l? pour (?a)! 'That's what I am here for!' > > what about the (recent?) "that's-less" structure in English: > > - X (writes a comment on a blog). > - Y (commenting on X's comment): What X said! (= I agree, I could have said > the same thing). > > marie-lucie > > > > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:17:26 -0500 > From: geoffnathan at wayne.edu > To: mltarpent at hotmail.com > CC: hopper at cmu.edu; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years > ago, let me clarify. > > We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France > about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..) > asked the waiter: > > Si je peux vous poser une question? > > The waiter replied: > > Je suis l? pour. > > I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and > Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around > here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French > (fran?ais avanc? as they like to say...) > > Geoff > > Geoffrey S. Nathan > Faculty Liaison, C&IT > and Professor, Linguistics Program > http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) > > Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to > anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. > > > From: "Marie-Lucie Tarpent" > To: hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > > Paul Hopper: > > About Bauche's examples: > > (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he > slept with) > > This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a > single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The > formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" is not only much > more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar in > tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque > of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couch?", > common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in > writing. > > (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him' > > Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence > immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman) > chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique > pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I ran after > him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted > as above, although possibly so depending on the context. > > (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it' > > A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ... > pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas > travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of > "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): > so perhaps > a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for > THAT' > b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.' > c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which was > mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' > > The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) > speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found > in extensions of popular syntax. > > As for the next and most recent example: > > (4) j'y suis pour > > it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to > be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but > cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite > could be true). > > marie-lucie > >> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 >> From: hopper at cmu.edu >> To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com >> CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br >> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >> >> The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. >> Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle >> dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: Payot, >> 1928. >> >> les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? >> je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? >> tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" >> >> A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as >> saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". >> >> Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic >> substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Hi Eduardo, >>> >>> An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the >>> writer is from]: >>> >>> www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... >>> Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors >>> Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine il >>> y >>> en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Peter Hook >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Eduardo, >>>> >>>> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? >>>> nada") >>>> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >>>> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >>>> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informa >>>> tiva_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_). >>>> >>>> >>>> Hope it helps! >>>> >>>> Carlota >>>> >>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >>>>> From: kariri at gmail.com >>>>> To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >>>> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >>>>> Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>>> >>>>> >>>>> [apologies for cross-posting] >>>>> >>>>> Dear colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases >>>>> present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more >>>>> common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal >>>>> terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original >>>>> Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >>>>> (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >>>>> >>>>> Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases >>>>> in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, >>>>> ended up becoming the default usage? >>>>> >>>>> I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this >>>> topic. >>>>> >>>>> Obrigado, >>>>> >>>>> Eduardo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >>>>> http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Histling-l mailing list >>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >> >> >> -- >> Paul J. Hopper, >> Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, >> Department of English, >> Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, >> Carnegie Mellon University, >> Pittsburgh, PA 15213, >> >> Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, >> University of Pittsburgh >> >> Senior External Fellow, >> School of Linguistics and Literature, >> Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), >> Freiburg i.Br., Germany >> >> Publications: >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Histling-l mailing list >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > ttachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > End of Histling-l Digest, Vol 80, Issue 10 > ****************************************** _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From peter.e.hook at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 15:00:32 2013 From: peter.e.hook at gmail.com (Peter Hook) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 00:00:32 +0900 Subject: FW: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dear Marie and others, If you google the sequences "pour jouer avec et" and "courir apr?s *et* " and "faire pour et" you will get hundreds of examples, many of which contain the abbreviation "fr" in their URLs. By adding the conjunction "et" immediately after the preposition you will exclude most of the examples of* unstranded *prepositions. Some of the "hits" will be junk but most are the real deal. Examples: je veut mettre un x6 car lorsque j aurais le budget je rajoute une CG *pour jouer avec et* je fais aussi de la video Pour lui apprendre ? jouer avec une balle, commencez par jouer vous-m?me en la lan?ant et en faisant mine de *courir apr?s et* lorsque votre chien s'approche, *...*puis il pique de temps en temps mon tel portable *pour jouer avec, et*il pique aussi ma tablette o? il y a pas mal d'applis pour les petits... Mar 30, 2012 - Mais comme Shalima et Frogita, je te dirai simplement que tu vas y aller, et vite, ? toi de tout *faire pour et* de bien en profiter une fois que tu y *...* All the best, Peter On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Marie-Lucie Tarpent wrote: > Dr Ramat, > > Thank you for your comments on my answer to Paul Hopper. Geoffrey Nathan > sent a subsequent email and I responded, but I did not mean to send it to > him alone, so below I am forwarding my exchange with him. > > I am glad to learn the origin of "avec", which I did not know. > > m-l > > > > ------------------------------ > From: mltarpent at hotmail.com > To: geoffnathan at wayne.edu > Subject: RE: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:26:35 -0400 > > Thank you, Geoff Nathan! > > "Je suis l? pour" sounds much more authentic than the previously reported > "J'y suis pour", where "y" would refer to a known location, or at least of > something previously mentioned or understood. I have no doubt that you > reported the sentence correctly, since I have must have heard the structure > many times in France, with various Subject pronouns. > > Your waiter would not have needed to know English to adopt a widespread > phrase modelled on English structure, but as examples accumulate I think > that at least here the preposition-last structure here is not a case of > preposition-stranding on the English model but more generally a case of > omission of final ?A, not only in > > - Je suis l? pour (?a)! 'That's what I am here for!' > > but for instance in > > - Les films japonais, j'adore! 'I love Japanese movies!' > > where the Object is at least understood if not actually stated as > Topic. In my youth such sentences sounded pretentious. They were (at > least in my experience) associated with a certain type of upper- or > almost-upper-class young women, but they must have become more widespread, > rejoining the "popular speech" examples quoted by Paul Hopper. > > The omission of ?A 'that, it' may be due to the fact that it still has a > negative connotation. As a "popular" abbreviation of CELA - still used by > only in a high register - it was long frowned upon even in speech. I > hardly ever use "cela" except if I need to adopt a formal tone (such as in > academic writing), but for instance when Le Monde translates "X (number of) > readers recommend this" as "X lecteurs recommandent ?a", "?a" here sounds > to me as inappropriately derogatory, not neutral like English "this". But > my point of view is probably very old-fashioned (I am retired). > > Going back to: > > - Je suis l? pour (?a)! 'That's what I am here for!' > > what about the (recent?) "that's-less" structure in English: > > - X (writes a comment on a blog). > - Y (commenting on X's comment): What X said! (= I agree, I could have > said the same thing). > > marie-lucie > > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:17:26 -0500 > From: geoffnathan at wayne.edu > To: mltarpent at hotmail.com > CC: hopper at cmu.edu; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several > years ago, let me clarify. > > We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France > about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know > her..) asked the waiter: > > Si je peux vous poser une question? > > The waiter replied: > > Je suis l? pour. > > I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and > Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around > here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary > French (fran?ais avanc? as they like to say...) > > Geoff > > Geoffrey S. Nathan > Faculty Liaison, C&IT > and Professor, Linguistics Program > http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ > +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) > > Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it > to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. > > > ------------------------------ > > *From: *"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" > *To: *hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, > histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > *Sent: *Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM > *Subject: *Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > Paul Hopper: > > About Bauche's examples: > > (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that > he slept with) > > This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a > single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The > formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" is not only much > more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar > in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a > calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a > couch?", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, > especially in writing. > > (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him' > > Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French > sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I > (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an > oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I > ran after him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s lui/elle" would be less likely to be > interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. > > (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it' > > A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne > ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas > travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage > of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in > (1)): so perhaps > a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't work > for THAT' > b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked > for.' > c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which was > mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' > > The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= > uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more > likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. > > As for the next and most recent example: > > (4) j'y suis pour > > it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most > likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here > for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or > the opposite could be true). > > marie-lucie > > > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 > > From: hopper at cmu.edu > > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com > > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br > > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > > > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire. > > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle > > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: > Payot, > > 1928. > > > > les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? > > je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? > > tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" > > > > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as > > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". > > > > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic > > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? > > > > Paul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Eduardo, > > > > > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where > the > > > writer is from]: > > > > > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... > > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors > > > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la semaine > il > > > y > > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Peter Hook > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Eduardo, > > >> > > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? > > >> nada") > > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin > > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( > > >> > https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_ > ). > > >> > > >> > > >> Hope it helps! > > >> > > >> Carlota > > >> > > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 > > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com > > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > ; > > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org > > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > > >> > > >> > > > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] > > >> > > > >> > Dear colleagues, > > >> > > > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) > phrases > > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more > > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal > > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the > original > > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. > > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). > > >> > > > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases > > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes, > > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? > > >> > > > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this > > >> topic. > > >> > > > >> > Obrigado, > > >> > > > >> > Eduardo > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista > > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > Histling-l mailing list > > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Histling-l mailing list > > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > >> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Histling-l mailing list > > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > > > > > > -- > > Paul J. Hopper, > > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, > > Department of English, > > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, > > Carnegie Mellon University, > > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, > > > > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, > > University of Pittsburgh > > > > Senior External Fellow, > > School of Linguistics and Literature, > > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), > > Freiburg i.Br., Germany > > > > Publications: > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Histling-l mailing list > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From george.walkden at gmail.com Mon Dec 16 16:18:25 2013 From: george.walkden at gmail.com (George Walkden) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:18:25 +0000 Subject: Fwd: Borrowed word order in phrases Message-ID: Dear all, A response from Ruth King on the VAR-L list, where this topic has also been under discussion. (Mailing list cross-pollination ftw.) Best, - George Begin forwarded message: > From: Ruth King > Subject: Re: Fwd: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases > Date: 16 December 2013 16:14:02 GMT > To: George Walkden > Cc: > > Dear George and all, > > For those who want to take the discussion on French back even further, there is > Marie-Th?r?se Vinet (1984) ?La syntaxe du qu?b?cois et les emprunts ? l?anglais? Revue de l?association qu?b?coise de linguistique 24:2.165-181. > Denis Bouchard (1982) "Les constructions relatives en fran?ais vernaculaire et en fran?ais vernaculaire." La syntaxe compar?e du fran?ais standard et populaire : approches formelles et fonctionnelles ed. by Claire Lefebvre, 103-34. Qu?bec : Office de la langue fran?aise. > > > Vinet spells out clearly the diffferences between English and French with respect to where empty objects of P are allowed while Bouchard presents some very interesting historical data. I should be clear that my own work on P-Stranding, singly and with Yves Roberge, involves three constructions - relative clauses, WH-questions and pseudo-passives - and argues for contact-induced change in certain varieties of Acadian French, precisely those varieties which have borrowed English prepositions. > > George, feel free to post this on Histling-l. > > Best, > Ruth -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From laurenzentz at gmail.com Wed Dec 18 16:01:32 2013 From: laurenzentz at gmail.com (Lauren Zentz) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:01:32 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Borrowed word order in phrases Message-ID: Hello all, I am posting this on behalf of Shana Poplack, who is not on this listserv. Apologies for cross-postings. Lauren Zentz Just to set the record straight, it?s not true that the people who wrote that article in *Bilingualism: language and cognition, *of which I am one, ?don?t believe that change in frequency is change?. Of course it can be! (See Poplack & Malvar 2008 for a particularly striking example) But sometimes it?s not. The point of the BLC paper was to lay out ? and implement! ? a number of criteria, consisting mainly of comparisons with relevant diachronic and synchronic benchmarks, for the establishment of contact-induced change. Oddly enough, many of them were also enunciated, though not always implemented, by Sally herself. Applying such criteria systematically to a great deal of Quebec French data, we showed that the phrase-final prepositions in question do not display the syntactic properties of English stranded prepositions, do not represent a change vis-?-vis an earlier stage (at least over the century-and-a-half time span under study), and are not contact-induced, but rather the result of an analogical extension to the relative clause context of the native French ?orphan? (e.g. Zribi-Herz) prepositions. That the latter are characteristic of non-contact French was also pointed out by Paul in his citation of Bauche 1928. Parenthetically, the *?J?y suis pour?* example heard by Geoff Nathan in the center of France was one of these orphan prepositions. -- Shana Poplack On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Daniel Ezra Johnson < danielezrajohnson at gmail.com> wrote: > Poplack and Dion don't believe that change in frequency is change? J'ai > pas connu ?a. > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, George Walkden < > george.walkden at manchester.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> For the benefit of those of you who aren't also on the Histling list, >> where this was originally posted, here's some of the (fascinating) >> discussion that's been going on there. Both Ruth's and Lauren's work has >> already been mentioned there (by me, ahem). >> >> Best, >> >> - George >> >> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >> George Walkden >> Lecturer in English Linguistics >> University of Manchester >> george.walkden at manchester.ac.uk >> http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/george.walkden/ >> Office: N1.2 Samuel Alexander Building >> Tel.: +44 (0)161 275 8905 >> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *Sarah Thomason >> *Subject: **Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases* >> *Date: *15 December 2013 17:18:21 GMT >> *To: *George Walkden >> *Cc: *"Geoffrey S. Nathan" , >> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >> >> But that paper in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition is written by >> people who don't believe that change in frequency is change. It's a very >> odd belief, and it would rule out any change from a more restricted set of >> environments to a "default" status -- for those authors such a change >> wouldn't count as any kind of change, no matter how contact-induced it was. >> >> -- Sally Thomason >> >> >> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:08 AM, George Walkden > > wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a paper >>> arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not due to >>> contact - with several responses. >>> >>> < >>> https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02 >>> > >>> >>> Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps >>> not normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The >>> issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here. >>> >>> - George >>> >>> >>> On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: >>> >>> As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several >>> years ago, let me clarify. >>> >>> We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central >>> France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you >>> know her..) asked the waiter: >>> >>> Si je peux vous poser une question? >>> >>> The waiter replied: >>> >>> Je suis l? pour. >>> >>> I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, >>> and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from >>> around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial >>> contemporary French (fran?ais avanc? as they like to say...) >>> >>> Geoff >>> >>> Geoffrey S. Nathan >>> Faculty Liaison, C&IT >>> and Professor, Linguistics Program >>> http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ >>> +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) >>> >>> Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it >>> to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From: *"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" >>> *To: *hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, >>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> *Sent: *Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM >>> >>> *Subject: *Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>> >>> Paul Hopper: >>> >>> About Bauche's examples: >>> >>> (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that >>> he slept with) >>> >>> This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as >>> a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than >>> Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" is >>> not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number >>> agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom >>> he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les >>> femmes avec qui il a couch?", common in casual educated speech but frowned >>> upon by purists, especially in writing. >>> >>> (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him' >>> >>> Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French >>> sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I >>> (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an >>> oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I >>> ran after him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s lui/elle" would be less likely to be >>> interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. >>> >>> (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it' >>> >>> A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use >>> "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as >>> pas travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this >>> usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses >>> (as in (1)): so perhaps >>> a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't >>> work for THAT' >>> b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked >>> for.' >>> c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which >>> was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' >>> >>> The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= >>> uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more >>> likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. >>> >>> As for the next and most recent example: >>> >>> (4) j'y suis pour >>> >>> it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most >>> likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here >>> for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or >>> the opposite could be true). >>> >>> marie-lucie >>> >>> > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 >>> > From: hopper at cmu.edu >>> > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com >>> > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br >>> >>> > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>> > >>> > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage >>> populaire. >>> > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le parle >>> > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: >>> Payot, >>> > 1928. >>> > >>> > les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? >>> > je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? >>> > tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" >>> > >>> > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as >>> > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". >>> > >>> > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic >>> > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? >>> > >>> > Paul >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > Hi Eduardo, >>> > > >>> > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where >>> the >>> > > writer is from]: >>> > > >>> > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... >>> > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors >>> > > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la >>> semaine il >>> > > y >>> > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! >>> > > >>> > > Cheers, >>> > > >>> > > Peter Hook >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka >>> wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> Dear Eduardo, >>> > >> >>> > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? >>> > >> nada") >>> > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >>> > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >>> > >> >>> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_ >>> ). >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> Hope it helps! >>> > >> >>> > >> Carlota >>> > >> >>> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >>> > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >>> > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >>> > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >>> > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>> > >> >>> > >> > >>> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >>> > >> > >>> > >> > Dear colleagues, >>> > >> > >>> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >>> phrases >>> > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more >>> > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal >>> > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >>> original >>> > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >>> > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >>> > >> > >>> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >>> cases >>> > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >>> lexemes, >>> > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? >>> > >> > >>> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >>> this >>> > >> topic. >>> > >> > >>> > >> > Obrigado, >>> > >> > >>> > >> > Eduardo >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > -- >>> > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >>> > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >>> > >> > _______________________________________________ >>> > >> > Histling-l mailing list >>> > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> > >> >>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>> > >> Histling-l mailing list >>> > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > > _______________________________________________ >>> > > Histling-l mailing list >>> > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Paul J. Hopper, >>> > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, >>> > Department of English, >>> > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, >>> > Carnegie Mellon University, >>> > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, >>> > >>> > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, >>> > University of Pittsburgh >>> > >>> > Senior External Fellow, >>> > School of Linguistics and Literature, >>> > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), >>> > Freiburg i.Br., Germany >>> > >>> > Publications: >>> > >> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Histling-l mailing list >>> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Histling-l mailing list >>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Histling-l mailing list >>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Histling-l mailing list >>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist >> sociolinguistics. >> >> To send messages to the VAR-L list (subscribers only), write to: >> VAR-L at JISCMAIL.AC.UK >> >> To unsubscribe from the VAR-L list, click the following link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=VAR-L&A=1 >> > > > ------------------------------ > > The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist > sociolinguistics. > > To send messages to the VAR-L list (subscribers only), write to: > VAR-L at JISCMAIL.AC.UK > > To unsubscribe from the VAR-L list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=VAR-L&A=1 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From thomason at umich.edu Wed Dec 18 16:23:45 2013 From: thomason at umich.edu (Sarah Thomason) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 08:23:45 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Borrowed word order in phrases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Eh, how can change in frequency (note the word "change" in the NP "change in frequency"!) *ever* not be change?! I have no opinion on the specific issue of stranded prepositions in French -- I'm not qualified to judge -- but two additional points that are not taken into account in Shana's (and co-authors') work are important for the general question: (1) contact-induced changes very often produce results that are not identical to the relevant source-language features, a well-established fact that removes the non-identity of stranded-preposition rules in English & Quebec French as a cogent argument against a hypothesis that English influence was involved in the (purported) expansion of stranded prepositions in Quebec French. And (2) multiple causation in both internally-motivated and contact-induced language change is so common that the existence of a plausible internal analogic source for a given change also isn't evidence against the influence of language contact in triggering and/or spreading the same change. To avoid further misunderstanding, this of course does not mean that English influenced any spread of this feature in Quebec French or elsewhere. It does mean that the other arguments against the hypothesis are the only ones that carry weight. I'm pretty careful to follow my criteria for establishing contact-induced change; when I can't satisfy one of the requisites for a given example, I say so. Shana may be misled into thinking I'm careless about this because of the inaccurate "paraphrase" of one or two of my criteria in Poplack & Levey. I've probably stumbled now and then, of course. -- Sally Thomason On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 8:01 AM, Lauren Zentz wrote: > Hello all, > I am posting this on behalf of Shana Poplack, who is not on this > listserv. > Apologies for cross-postings. > Lauren Zentz > > > > Just to set the record straight, it?s not true that the people who wrote > that article in *Bilingualism: language and cognition, *of which I am > one, ?don?t believe that change in frequency is change?. Of course it can > be! (See Poplack & Malvar 2008 for a particularly striking example) But > sometimes it?s not. The point of the BLC paper was to lay out ? and > implement! ? a number of criteria, consisting mainly of comparisons with > relevant diachronic and synchronic benchmarks, for the establishment of > contact-induced change. Oddly enough, many of them were also enunciated, > though not always implemented, by Sally herself. Applying such criteria > systematically to a great deal of Quebec French data, we showed that the > phrase-final prepositions in question do not display the syntactic > properties of English stranded prepositions, do not represent a change > vis-?-vis an earlier stage (at least over the century-and-a-half time span > under study), and are not contact-induced, but rather the result of an > analogical extension to the relative clause context of the native French > ?orphan? (e.g. Zribi-Herz) prepositions. That the latter are characteristic > of non-contact French was also pointed out by Paul in his citation of > Bauche 1928. Parenthetically, the *?J?y suis pour?* example heard by > Geoff Nathan in the center of France was one of these orphan prepositions. > > -- Shana Poplack > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Daniel Ezra Johnson < > danielezrajohnson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Poplack and Dion don't believe that change in frequency is change? J'ai >> pas connu ?a. >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, George Walkden < >> george.walkden at manchester.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> For the benefit of those of you who aren't also on the Histling list, >>> where this was originally posted, here's some of the (fascinating) >>> discussion that's been going on there. Both Ruth's and Lauren's work has >>> already been mentioned there (by me, ahem). >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> - George >>> >>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >>> George Walkden >>> Lecturer in English Linguistics >>> University of Manchester >>> george.walkden at manchester.ac.uk >>> http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/george.walkden/ >>> Office: N1.2 Samuel Alexander Building >>> Tel.: +44 (0)161 275 8905 >>> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> *From: *Sarah Thomason >>> *Subject: **Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases* >>> *Date: *15 December 2013 17:18:21 GMT >>> *To: *George Walkden >>> *Cc: *"Geoffrey S. Nathan" , >>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>> >>> But that paper in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition is written by >>> people who don't believe that change in frequency is change. It's a very >>> odd belief, and it would rule out any change from a more restricted set of >>> environments to a "default" status -- for those authors such a change >>> wouldn't count as any kind of change, no matter how contact-induced it was. >>> >>> -- Sally Thomason >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:08 AM, George Walkden < >>> george.walkden at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a >>>> paper arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not >>>> due to contact - with several responses. >>>> >>>> < >>>> https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02 >>>> > >>>> >>>> Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps >>>> not normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The >>>> issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here. >>>> >>>> - George >>>> >>>> >>>> On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote: >>>> >>>> As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list >>>> several years ago, let me clarify. >>>> >>>> We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central >>>> France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you >>>> know her..) asked the waiter: >>>> >>>> Si je peux vous poser une question? >>>> >>>> The waiter replied: >>>> >>>> Je suis l? pour. >>>> >>>> I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, >>>> and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from >>>> around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial >>>> contemporary French (fran?ais avanc? as they like to say...) >>>> >>>> Geoff >>>> >>>> Geoffrey S. Nathan >>>> Faculty Liaison, C&IT >>>> and Professor, Linguistics Program >>>> http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/ >>>> +1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT) >>>> >>>> Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send >>>> it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks. >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From: *"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" >>>> *To: *hopper at cmu.edu, etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br, >>>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> *Sent: *Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM >>>> >>>> *Subject: *Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>>> >>>> Paul Hopper: >>>> >>>> About Bauche's examples: >>>> >>>> (1) les femmes qu'il a couch? avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... >>>> that he slept with) >>>> >>>> This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used >>>> as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than >>>> Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couch?" is >>>> not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number >>>> agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom >>>> he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les >>>> femmes avec qui il a couch?", common in casual educated speech but frowned >>>> upon by purists, especially in writing. >>>> >>>> (2) je lui ai couru apr?s 'I ran after him' >>>> >>>> Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French >>>> sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I >>>> (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an >>>> oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I >>>> ran after him/her', "j'ai couru apr?s lui/elle" would be less likely to be >>>> interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. >>>> >>>> (3) tu n'as pas travaill? pour 'you didn't work for it' >>>> >>>> A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use >>>> "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as >>>> pas travaill? pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this >>>> usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses >>>> (as in (1)): so perhaps >>>> a) T'as pas travaill? pour ?A. ("?a" here is the topie). 'You didn't >>>> work for THAT' >>>> b) C'est pas ?a que t'as travaill? pour. 'THAT is not what you worked >>>> for.' >>>> c) - ... ?A... - T'as pas travaill? pour. (omitting the topic, which >>>> was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT' >>>> >>>> The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= >>>> uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more >>>> likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax. >>>> >>>> As for the next and most recent example: >>>> >>>> (4) j'y suis pour >>>> >>>> it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most >>>> likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here >>>> for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or >>>> the opposite could be true). >>>> >>>> marie-lucie >>>> >>>> > Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500 >>>> > From: hopper at cmu.edu >>>> > To: peter.e.hook at gmail.com >>>> > CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br >>>> >>>> > Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>>> > >>>> > The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage >>>> populaire. >>>> > Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu?on le >>>> parle >>>> > dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d?argot usuel. Paris: >>>> Payot, >>>> > 1928. >>>> > >>>> > les femmes qu?il a couch? avec ?the women he?s slept with? >>>> > je lui ai couru apr?s ?I ran after him? >>>> > tu n?as pas travaill? pour "You didn't work for it" >>>> > >>>> > A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter >>>> as >>>> > saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for". >>>> > >>>> > Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic >>>> > substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True? >>>> > >>>> > Paul >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > Hi Eduardo, >>>> > > >>>> > > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of >>>> where the >>>> > > writer is from]: >>>> > > >>>> > > www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t... >>>> > > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors >>>> > > Mmmm c'est d?licieux ; on la mettait de c?t? et ? la fin de la >>>> semaine il >>>> > > y >>>> > > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* ! >>>> > > >>>> > > Cheers, >>>> > > >>>> > > Peter Hook >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka >>>> wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > >> Dear Eduardo, >>>> > >> >>>> > >> A recent account of the word order "Nada s?" (as opposed to "No s? >>>> > >> nada") >>>> > >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin >>>> > >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here ( >>>> > >> >>>> https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_ >>>> ). >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Hope it helps! >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Carlota >>>> > >> >>>> > >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500 >>>> > >> > From: kariri at gmail.com >>>> > >> > To: etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br; >>>> histling-l at mailman.rice.edu; >>>> > >> LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org >>>> > >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases >>>> > >> >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > [apologies for cross-posting] >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > Dear colleagues, >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) >>>> phrases >>>> > >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more >>>> > >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, >>>> legal >>>> > >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the >>>> original >>>> > >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc. >>>> > >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88). >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of >>>> cases >>>> > >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed >>>> lexemes, >>>> > >> > ended up becoming the default usage? >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on >>>> this >>>> > >> topic. >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > Obrigado, >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > Eduardo >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > -- >>>> > >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, ling?ista >>>> > >> > http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9 >>>> > >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> > Histling-l mailing list >>>> > >> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> > >> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> > >> >>>> > >> _______________________________________________ >>>> > >> Histling-l mailing list >>>> > >> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> > >> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > > _______________________________________________ >>>> > > Histling-l mailing list >>>> > > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> > > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Paul J. Hopper, >>>> > Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus, >>>> > Department of English, >>>> > Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences, >>>> > Carnegie Mellon University, >>>> > Pittsburgh, PA 15213, >>>> > >>>> > Adjunct Professor of Linguistics, >>>> > University of Pittsburgh >>>> > >>>> > Senior External Fellow, >>>> > School of Linguistics and Literature, >>>> > Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS), >>>> > Freiburg i.Br., Germany >>>> > >>>> > Publications: >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Histling-l mailing list >>>> > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Histling-l mailing list >>>> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu >>>> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist >>> sociolinguistics. >>> >>> To send messages to the VAR-L list (subscribers only), write to: >>> VAR-L at JISCMAIL.AC.UK >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the VAR-L list, click the following link: >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=VAR-L&A=1 >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> The Variationist List - discussion of everything related to variationist >> sociolinguistics. >> >> To send messages to the VAR-L list (subscribers only), write to: >> VAR-L at JISCMAIL.AC.UK >> >> To unsubscribe from the VAR-L list, click the following link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=VAR-L&A=1 >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Histling-l mailing list > Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu > https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l From linpb at hum.au.dk Mon Dec 23 00:19:18 2013 From: linpb at hum.au.dk (Peter Bakker) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 01:19:18 +0100 Subject: 15-16 Jan, DK: Time and Space in Linguistics & Cross-Creole Comparisons Message-ID: Time and Space in Linguistics: Interdisciplinary Computational Approaches & Cross-Creole Comparisons Tasil2014.com Aarhus University 15-16 January 2014 Programme [ http://tasil2014.com/tasil_programme.pd ]download Programme as .pdf [ http://tasil2014.com/_tasil2014abstracts.pd ]download Abstracts as .pdf Time and Space in Linguistics: Interdisciplinary Computational Approaches & Cross-Creole Comparisons Richard Mortensen Stue, Aarhus University 15-16 January 2014 conference programme DAY 1: Wednesday, January 15th 2014 9.00-9.45 William H. Sutherland (University of Cambridge):???Extinction in languages and species 9.45-10.15 Rebecca Grollemund, Simon Branford & Mark Pagel (University of Reading): [ http://tasil2014.com/02grollemundbranfordpagel.pd ]Bantu expansion follows the Savannah Corridor through the Equatorial rainforest 10.15-10.45 Coffee break 10.45-11.15 Harald Hammarstr??m (Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics, Nijmegen): [ http://tasil2014.com/03hammarstrom.pd ]Basic word order and language contact 11.15-11.45 Michel G??n??reux & Tjerk Hagemeijer (Lisbon University): [ http://tasil2014.com/04genereuxhagemeijer.pd ]Experiments with the basic vocabulary of the Gulf of Guinea Creoles 11.45-13.00 Lunch break 13.00-13.45 S??ren Wichmann (Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig): [ http://tasil2014.com/05wichmann.pd ]Worldwide patterns of language migration 13.45-14.15 Erich Round (University of Queensland):???[ http://tasil2014.com/06round.pd ]Dataset design processes need to be scientifically reported:?? The sensitivity of Bayesian clustering and ??researcher degrees of freedom?? 14.15-14.45 Coffee break 14.45-15.30 Michael Dunn (Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics, Nijmegen): [ http://tasil2014.com/07dunn.pd ]A time and place for languages: new perspectives from Bayesian Phylogeography 15.30-16.00 Susanne Michaelis (Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig): [ http://tasil2014.com/08michaelis.pd ]Sampling in contact linguistics: What is a typical creole feature? 16.00-16.30 Aymeric Daval-Markussen (Aarhus University): [ http://tasil2014.com/09daval-markussen.pd ]Creole typology in the age of the APiCS DAY 2: Thursday, January 16th 2014 9.00-9.45 Vittorio Loreto (Sapienza University of Rome): [ http://tasil2014.com/10loreto.pd ]Modelling the emergence of creole languages 9.45-10.15 St??phane Goyette (Brandon University, Manitoba):???[ http://tasil2014.com/11goyette.pd ]On the genesis of French and non-French Creoles of the Americas 10.15-10.45 Coffee break 10.45-11.15 Eeva Sippola & Abigail Tiny (Aarhus University & Lisbon University): [ http://tasil2014.com/12sippolatiny.pd ]Noun phrases in Iberian-lexifier creoles 11.15-11.45 Chiara Truppi (Humboldt University Berlin): [ http://tasil2014.com/13truppi.pd ]Number and Animacy in Portuguese-based Creoles 11.45-13.00 Lunch break 13.00-13.30 Peter Bakker (Aarhus University):???[ http://tasil2014.com/14bakker.pd ]European creoles versus non-European creoles 13.30-14.00 Kees Versteegh (Radboud Universiteit Nijmegen):???[ http://tasil2014.com/15versteegh.pd ]The expression of future tense in Arabic pidgins and creoles 14.00-14.30 Coffee break 14.30-15.00 Angela Bartens & Eeva Sippola (Helsinki University & Aarhus University): [ http://tasil2014.com/16bartenssippola.pd ]Subject null arguments in creole languages 15.00-15.30 Adrienne Bruyn (Utrecht University):???[ http://tasil2014.com/17bruyn.pd ]Suriname versus the rest of the world: a comparison of functional elements based on the APiCS 15.30-16.00 Conclusions and closure of conference Registration A registration fee of DKK 375 (approx. 50 ??? ) will be charged to cover lunch, tea and coffee for both days. Please use Aarhus University's [ https://auws.au.dk/timeandspac ]online payment system in order to complete your registration. A conference dinner is planned to take place on Wednesday evening for DKK225 (around 30 ???). Registration is required and must likewise be done through Aarhus University's [ https://auws.au.dk/timeandspac ]online payment system. Practical information can be found at [ http://tasil2014.com/location.htm ]http://tasil2014.com/location.html If you have any queries, please feel free to contact us, and we will do our best to assist you. Email: tasil2014 at gmail.com Aymeric Daval-Markussen Peter Bakker Finn Borchsenius Peter Bakker email: linpb at hum.au.dk Linguistics tel. (45) 87162146 Inst. for ??sthetics and Communication Aarhus University tel. institute: (0045)87162156 Bygning 1485- 619 DK 8000 Aarhus C parcels: Peter Bakker, Lingvistik c/o Aarhus Universitet, Intern Post/Adm. Fredrik Nielsens vej 7, bygn. 1444 DK-8000 Aarhus C Danmark home page: http://pure.au.dk/portal/en/persons/peter-bakker(357d6496-4535-4eb4-9296-e88fe32cbd5c).html home page: http://person.au.dk/en/linpb at hum.au.dk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Histling-l mailing list Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l