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Hello,<br><br>Here is another counterexample to the absolute rigidity of a phonetic process, from the Nisqa'a language (British Columbia, Canada): a -t pronominal suffix (3rd sg) is phonologically deleted before a "connective" (consisting of a fricative "s" or "L" (lateral)) under most conditions), but with one exception, as shown below: (all ex's here use the 'non-determinate' connective =L, used before most nouns; transcription is phonemic):<br><br>Examples in (1) show the most common type of transitive clause (here introduced by an AUX): the connective is morphosyntactically part of the noun phrase but phonologically attached to the previous word:<br><br>(1) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L hanaq'=L kwila 'The woman is/was making the [traditional] cape/blanket' <br>PROG.AUX=3ERG make[-3]=CONN woman=CONN blanket<br><br>(1a) Yukw=t jap-t 'She is/was making it'<br><br>(1aa) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L kwila 'She is/was making the blanket'<br>(1ab) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L hanaq' 'The woman is/was making it'<br><br>In (1aa) and (1ab), only the semantics (and, in speech, lesser stress on the subject) indicate whether the noun is subject or object (if there might be ambiguity, both nouns would be mentioned in the sentence, as in (1)).<br><br>In (1b) the suffix appears in front of a following q (since only =s and =L cause it to delete), but the postclitic morpheme ==qat 'quotative, hearsay' loses its own final t before the following connective (but the deleting rule does not apply if the phoneme t is part of a previous word):<br><br>1b) Yukw=t jap-t==qa[t]=L hanaq'=L kwila 'I hear(d) that the woman is was making the blanket' <br> ==hearsay<br><br>1c) Yukw=t jap-t==qat ''I hear(d) she was making it<br><br><br>Examples in (2) illustrate another type of clause ("predicate-focused"), where the [t] is preserved to indicate the pronominal subject:<br><br>(2) Jap-∂-[t]=L hanaq'=L kwila 'The woman MADE the blanket' (eg not bought it)<br> make-NOMZ-[3] (lit The blanket is what the woman MADE, ... the woman's MAKING) <br><br>(2a) Jap-∂-t 'She MADE it'<br><br>Compare (2aa) and (2ab) with (1aa) and (1ab) above: here the suffix -t is preserved phonologically when the noun it refers to is not mentioned in the sentence:<br><br>(2aa) Jap-∂-t=L kwila 'She MADE the blanket'<br>(2ab) Jap-∂-[-t]=L hanaq' 'The woman MADE it'<br><br>Only the grammatical difference, in this particular type of clause, justifies the phonological preservation of the suffix. <br><br>(As in the (1) examples, addition of ==qat would make the -t appear in both sentences). <br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">From: paoram@unipv.it<br>To: sashavovin@gmail.com; nathanwhill@gmail.com<br>Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:18:31 +0100<br>CC: histling-l@mailman.rice.edu<br>Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl<br><br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman">Nathan Hill wrote:<br></font>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" class="ecxgmail_quote">
<div><font face="Times New Roman">“Dear Historical Linguists. [...]My
neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of phonetic
environments only and not part of speech categories.”</font></div>
<div><font face="Times New Roman">I have high respect for the Neogrammarians,
but the statement above is a very strong one. It amounts to separate
completely phonetics from grammar and syntax (or morphoyntax). If, say, a
derivational suffix comes to modify the final part of a verbal root
</font><font face="Times New Roman">we can have a new basis in the word
formation rule. For instance OGk. Nom<em>. gàla</em> “milk”, Genit.
<em>gàlak(t)os</em> observes the rule that no OGk. word can end by a
stop consonant. This induces the morphologically bound sound change –k > 0
in the Nomin. A rule that does not apply to words such as <em>galaktìzo
“</em>I’m breast-feeded”, <em>galaktokòmos “</em>shepherd<em>” etc. .</em>On
its turn <em>gala-,</em> and not <em>galak-,</em></font><font face="Times New Roman">can be the basis form for compounds such as
<em>galathenòs </em>“suckling child”.</font></div></blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>Best.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Paolo</div>
<div> </div>
<div>°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°</div>
<div style="font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12pt;">Prof.Paolo
Ramat<br>Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS )<br>Direttore del
Centro "Lingue d'Europa: tipologia, storia e sociolinguistica"
(LETiSS)<br>Palazzo del Broletto - Piazza della Vittoria<br><br>27100
Pavia<br>tel. ++390382375811<br>fax ++390382375899</div>
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<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div style=""><b>From:</b> <a title="sashavovin@gmail.com" href="mailto:sashavovin@gmail.com">Alexander Vovin</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, December 01, 2012 8:49 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="nathanwhill@gmail.com" href="mailto:nathanwhill@gmail.com">Nathan Hill</a> </div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a title="histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" href="mailto:histling-l@mailman.rice.edu">histling-l</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in
Nahuatl</div></div></div>
<div> </div></div>
<div style="font-style: normal; display: inline; font-family: 'Calibri'; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: small; font-weight: normal; text-decoration: none;">Dear
Nathan,<br><br>Very roughly speaking, but nouns and verbs behave very
differently in this respect in Japanese. Even within the verbal paradigm, older
grammaticalizations are different from more recent, although they can be traced
to very similar phonological forms, e,g., the paradigmaic form of the verb yom-
'to
count/read'<br><br>
Old Japanese Late Middle
Japanese
Modern
Japanese<br>perfective
yo2mi1taru
yomitaru
yoNda<br>desiderative
_____
yomitai
yomitai<br><br>Desiderative is much younger form than the perfective, and
although both are essentially identical phonologically. they show two very
different ref;exes in MJ.<br><br>Hope this helps,<br><br>Sasha<br><br><br>
<div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nathanwhill@gmail.com">nathanwhill@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;" class="ecxgmail_quote">Dear Historical Linguists,<br><br>In a paper about Tibetan I
am criticizing someone for proposing that<br>the same segment became one thing
in nouns and another thing in verbs.<br>My neogrammarian heart tells me that
sound changes are aware of<br>phonetic environments only and not part of
speech categories. Such a<br>thing is thus only possible if verbs are
phonetically different than<br>nouns in a systematic way (which is of course
possible).<br><br>Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial
*p becomes<br>zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the
pair<br>(.-tl "water" vs -<a href="http://p.ca" target="_blank">p.ca</a> "to
wash"). The reviewer does not cite a<br>discussion of this and I am totally at
sea in the Uto-Aztecan<br>literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part
of Uto-Aztecan<br>historical phonology surely it has given rise to the
same<br>methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should
apply<br>blindly).<br><br>I would be very grateful for any discussion of this
or advice on<br>treatments of this question in literature.<br><br>with
gratitude,<br>Nathan<br>_______________________________________________<br>Histling-l
mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu">Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a><br><a href="https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l" target="_blank">https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l</a><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><br>Alexander Vovin<br>Professor of East Asian Languages
and Literatures<br>Department of East Asian Languages and
Literatures<br>University of Hawai'i at Manoa,
USA<br>========================<br>iustitiam magni facite, infirmos
protegite<br>
<BR><hr>
_______________________________________________<br>Histling-l mailing
list<br>Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu<br>https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l<br></div></div></div>
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