<div dir="ltr">But that paper in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition is written by people who don't believe that change in frequency is change. It's a very odd belief, and it would rule out any change from a more restricted set of environments to a "default" status -- for those authors such a change wouldn't count as any kind of change, no matter how contact-induced it was.<div>
<br></div><div> -- Sally Thomason</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:08 AM, George Walkden <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:george.walkden@gmail.com" target="_blank">george.walkden@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear all,<div><br></div><div>In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a paper arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not due to contact - with several responses.</div>
<div><br></div><div><<a href="https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02" target="_blank">https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02</a>></div>
<div><br></div><div>Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps not normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here.</div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div></font></span><div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> - George </font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br><div><div>On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote:</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium"><div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif">As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years ago, let me clarify.<br><br>We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..) asked the waiter:<br>
<br>Si je peux vous poser une question?<br><br>The waiter replied:<br><br>Je suis là pour.<br><br>I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French (français avancé as they like to say...)<br>
<br>Geoff<br><br><div><span name="x"></span>Geoffrey S. Nathan<br>Faculty Liaison, C&IT<br>and Professor, Linguistics Program<br><a href="http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/" target="_blank">http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/</a><br>
<a href="tel:%2B1%20%28313%29%20577-1259" value="+13135771259" target="_blank">+1 (313) 577-1259</a> (C&IT)<br><br>Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks.<br>
<span name="x"></span><br></div><br><hr><blockquote style="padding-left:5px;border-left-color:rgb(16,16,255);border-left-style:solid;font-size:12pt;font-style:normal;margin-left:5px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;text-decoration:none;font-weight:normal;border-left-width:2px">
<b>From:<span> </span></b>"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" <<a href="mailto:mltarpent@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mltarpent@hotmail.com</a>><br><b>To:<span> </span></b><a href="mailto:hopper@cmu.edu" target="_blank">hopper@cmu.edu</a>,<span> </span><a href="mailto:etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br" target="_blank">etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br</a>,<span> </span><a href="mailto:histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a><br>
<b>Sent:<span> </span></b>Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM<br><b>Subject:<span> </span></b>Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases<br><br><div dir="ltr">Paul Hopper:<br><br>About Bauche's examples:<br><br>
(1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he slept with)<br><br>This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" is not only much more difficult to use (because of the gender/number agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couché", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists, especially in writing.<br>
<br>(2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him'<br><br>Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the same for both genders). For 'I ran after him/her', "j'ai couru après lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. <br>
<br>(3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it'<br><br>A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): so perhaps<span> </span><br>
a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA. ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for THAT'<br>b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.'<br>c) - ... ÇA... - T'as pas travaillé pour. (omitting the topic, which was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT'<br>
<br>The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax.<br><br>As for the next and most recent example:<br>
<br>(4) j'y suis pour<br><br>it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite could be true). <span> </span><br>
<br>marie-lucie<br><br>> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500<br>> From:<span> </span><a href="mailto:hopper@cmu.edu" target="_blank">hopper@cmu.edu</a><br>> To:<span> </span><a href="mailto:peter.e.hook@gmail.com" target="_blank">peter.e.hook@gmail.com</a><br>
> CC:<span> </span><a href="mailto:histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a>;<span> </span><a href="mailto:etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br" target="_blank">etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br</a><br>
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases<br>><span> </span><br>> The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire.<br>> Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle<br>
> dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: Payot,<br>> 1928.<br>><span> </span><br>> les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with”<br>> je lui ai couru après “I ran after him”<br>
> tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it"<br>><span> </span><br>> A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as<br>> saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for".<br>
><span> </span><br>> Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic<br>> substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True?<br>><span> </span><br>> Paul<br>><span> </span><br>
><span> </span><br>><span> </span><br>><span> </span><br>><span> </span><br>><span> </span><br>> > Hi Eduardo,<br>> ><br>> > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the<br>
> > writer is from]:<br>> ><br>> ><span> </span><a href="http://www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t" target="_blank">www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t</a>...<br>> > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors<br>
> > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine il<br>> > y<br>> > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* !<br>> ><br>> > Cheers,<br>> ><br>> > Peter Hook<br>
> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka <<a href="mailto:lachicadelgorro@hotmail.com" target="_blank">lachicadelgorro@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>> ><br>> >> Dear Eduardo,<br>
> >><br>> >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé<br>> >> nada")<br>> >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin<br>
> >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here (<br>> >><a href="https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_" target="_blank">https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_</a>).<br>
> >><br>> >><br>> >> Hope it helps!<br>> >><br>> >> Carlota<br>> >><br>> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500<br>> >> > From:<span> </span><a href="mailto:kariri@gmail.com" target="_blank">kariri@gmail.com</a><br>
> >> > To:<span> </span><a href="mailto:etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br" target="_blank">etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br</a>;<span> </span><a href="mailto:histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a>;<br>
> >><span> </span><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>> >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases<br>> >><br>
> >> ><br>> >> > [apologies for cross-posting]<br>> >> ><br>> >> > Dear colleagues,<br>> >> ><br>> >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases<br>
> >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more<br>> >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal<br>> >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original<br>
> >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc.<br>> >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88).<br>> >> ><br>> >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases<br>
> >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes,<br>> >> > ended up becoming the default usage?<br>> >> ><br>> >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this<br>
> >> topic.<br>> >> ><br>> >> > Obrigado,<br>> >> ><br>> >> > Eduardo<br>> >> ><br>> >> ><br>> >> > --<br>> >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista<br>
> >> ><span> </span><a href="http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9" target="_blank">http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9</a><br>> >> > _______________________________________________<br>> >> > Histling-l mailing list<br>
> >> ><span> </span><a href="mailto:Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a><br>> >> ><span> </span><a href="https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l" target="_blank">https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l</a><br>
> >><br>> >> _______________________________________________<br>> >> Histling-l mailing list<br>> >><span> </span><a href="mailto:Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a><br>
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> ><br>><span> </span><br>><span> </span><br>> --<span> </span><br>> Paul J. Hopper,<br>> Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus,<br>> Department of English,<br>> Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences,<br>
> Carnegie Mellon University,<br>> Pittsburgh, PA 15213,<br>><span> </span><br>> Adjunct Professor of Linguistics,<br>> University of Pittsburgh<br>><span> </span><br>> Senior External Fellow,<br>> School of Linguistics and Literature,<br>
> Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS),<br>> Freiburg i.Br., Germany<br>><span> </span><br>> Publications: <<a href="http://carnegie-mellon.academia.edu/PaulHopper" target="_blank">http://carnegie-mellon.academia.edu/PaulHopper</a>><br>
> <<a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=n2e7ANUAAAAJ" target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=n2e7ANUAAAAJ</a><br>><span> </span><br>><span> </span><br>> _______________________________________________<br>
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