<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Hello all, <div> I am posting this on behalf of Shana Poplack, who is not on this listserv.</div><div> Apologies for cross-postings. </div><div> Lauren Zentz</div><div>
<br></div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just to set the record straight, it’s not true that the people
who wrote that article in <i>Bilingualism:
language and cognition, </i>of which I am one, “don’t believe that change in
frequency is change”. Of course it can be! (See Poplack & Malvar 2008 for a
particularly striking example) But sometimes it’s not. The point of the BLC
paper was to lay out – and implement! – a number of criteria, consisting mainly
of comparisons with relevant diachronic and synchronic benchmarks, for the
establishment of contact-induced change. Oddly enough, many of them were also
enunciated, though not always implemented, by Sally herself. Applying such
criteria systematically to a great deal of Quebec French data, we showed that
the phrase-final prepositions in question do not display the syntactic
properties of English stranded prepositions, do not represent a change vis-à-vis
an earlier stage (at least over the century-and-a-half time span under study),
and are not contact-induced, but rather the result of an analogical extension
to the relative clause context of the native French “orphan” (e.g. Zribi-Herz)
prepositions. That the latter are characteristic of non-contact French was also
pointed out by Paul in his citation of Bauche 1928. Parenthetically, the <i>“J’y suis pour”</i> example heard by Geoff
Nathan in the center of France was one of these orphan prepositions.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- Shana Poplack</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="im">On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:59 AM, Daniel Ezra Johnson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danielezrajohnson@gmail.com" target="_blank">danielezrajohnson@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im"><div dir="ltr">Poplack and Dion don't believe that change in frequency is change? J'ai pas connu <span style="color:rgb(68,68,68);font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:16px">ça.</span></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra">
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="im">On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, George Walkden <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:george.walkden@manchester.ac.uk" target="_blank">george.walkden@manchester.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div><div><div class="h5"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
Dear all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the benefit of those of you who aren't also on the Histling list, where this was originally posted, here's some of the (fascinating) discussion that's been going on there. Both Ruth's and Lauren's work has already been mentioned there (by me, ahem).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> - George</div>
<div><br>
<div><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::<br>
George Walkden<br>
Lecturer in English Linguistics<br>
University of Manchester<br>
<a href="mailto:george.walkden@manchester.ac.uk" target="_blank">george.walkden@manchester.ac.uk</a><br>
<a href="http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/george.walkden/" target="_blank">http://personalpages.manchester.ac.uk/staff/george.walkden/</a><br>
Office: N1.2 Samuel Alexander Building<br>
Tel.: <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29161%20275%208905" value="+441612758905" target="_blank">+44 (0)161 275 8905</a><br>
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::</span> </div>
<div><br>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="margin:0px">
<span style="font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica"><b>From:
</b></span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium">Sarah Thomason <<a href="mailto:thomason@umich.edu" target="_blank">thomason@umich.edu</a>><br>
</span></div><div>
<div style="margin:0px">
<span style="font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica"><b>Subject:
</b></span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium"><b>Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases</b><br>
</span></div>
</div><div style="margin:0px">
<span style="font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica"><b>Date:
</b></span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium">15 December 2013 17:18:21 GMT<br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px">
<span style="font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica"><b>To:
</b></span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium">George Walkden <<a href="mailto:george.walkden@gmail.com" target="_blank">george.walkden@gmail.com</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div style="margin:0px">
<span style="font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica"><b>Cc:
</b></span><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:medium">"Geoffrey S. Nathan" <<a href="mailto:geoffnathan@wayne.edu" target="_blank">geoffnathan@wayne.edu</a>>,
<a href="mailto:histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">But that paper in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition is written by people who don't believe that change in frequency is change. It's a very odd belief, and it would rule out any change from a more restricted set of environments to a "default"
status -- for those authors such a change wouldn't count as any kind of change, no matter how contact-induced it was.
<div><br>
</div>
<div> -- Sally Thomason</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:08 AM, George Walkden <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:george.walkden@gmail.com" target="_blank">george.walkden@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In googling around on this interesting topic, I've come across a paper arguing that the prevalence of stranding in Canadian French is not due to contact - with several responses.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><<a href="https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02" target="_blank">https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayIssue?jid=BIL&volumeId=15&seriesId=0&issueId=02</a>></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Since it's in Bilingualism: Language and Cognition, which is perhaps not normally read by everyone on this list, I thought I'd bring it up. The issue covers many of the same questions that have been discussed here.</div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
</font></span>
<div><span><font color="#888888"> - George </font></span>
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div>
<div>On 15 Dec 2013, at 16:17, Geoffrey Steven Nathan wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-size:medium">
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:'times new roman','new york',times,serif">
As the person reporting the stranded preposition to this list several years ago, let me clarify.<br>
<br>
We were having dinner in a medium-sized provincial town in central France about fifteen or so years ago when Margaret (Winters--some of you know her..) asked the waiter:<br>
<br>
Si je peux vous poser une question?<br>
<br>
The waiter replied:<br>
<br>
Je suis là pour.<br>
<br>
I would judge it very unlikely that the waiter was fluent in English, and Margaret's French doesn't sound non-native (just vaguely 'not from around here...'). I suspect there are lots of these in colloquial contemporary French (français avancé as they like
to say...)<br>
<br>
Geoff<br>
<br>
<div><span name="x"></span>Geoffrey S. Nathan<br>
Faculty Liaison, C&IT<br>
and Professor, Linguistics Program<br>
<a href="http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/" target="_blank">http://blogs.wayne.edu/proftech/</a><br>
<a href="tel:%2B1%20%28313%29%20577-1259" value="+13135771259" target="_blank">+1 (313) 577-1259</a> (C&IT)<br>
<br>
Nobody at Wayne State will EVER ask you for your password. Never send it to anyone in an email, no matter how authentic the email looks.<br>
<span name="x"></span><br>
</div>
<br>
<hr>
<blockquote style="padding-left:5px;border-left-color:rgb(16,16,255);border-left-style:solid;font-size:12pt;font-style:normal;margin-left:5px;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;text-decoration:none;font-weight:normal;border-left-width:2px">
<b>From:<span> </span></b>"Marie-Lucie Tarpent" <<a href="mailto:mltarpent@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mltarpent@hotmail.com</a>><br>
<b>To:<span> </span></b><a href="mailto:hopper@cmu.edu" target="_blank">hopper@cmu.edu</a>,<span> </span><a href="mailto:etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br" target="_blank">etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br</a>,<span> </span><a href="mailto:histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a><br>
<b>Sent:<span> </span></b>Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:59:37 AM<div><br>
<b>Subject:<span> </span></b>Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases<br>
<br>
</div><div dir="ltr">Paul Hopper:<br>
<br>
About Bauche's examples:<br>
<br>
(1) les femmes qu'il a couché avec 'the women he slept with' (= ... that he slept with)<br>
<br>
This is a very common structure in uneducated speech, with "que" used as a single, ubiquitous relative pronoun for functions other than Subject. The formal equivalent "les femmes avec lesquelles il a couché" is not only much more difficult to use (because
of the gender/number agreement) but similar in tone and register to English "the women with whom he slept" (itself a calque of French). An intermediate form would be "les femmes avec qui il a couché", common in casual educated speech but frowned upon by purists,
especially in writing.<br>
<br>
(2) je lui ai couru après 'I ran after him'<br>
<br>
Although (1) here was not intended as a context for (2), the French sentence immediately called to my mind 'I (a man) chased after her' or 'I (a woman) chased after him' (= trying to start a relationship)("lui" as an oblique pronoun preceding the verb is the
same for both genders). For 'I ran after him/her', "j'ai couru après lui/elle" would be less likely to be interpreted as above, although possibly so depending on the context. <br>
<br>
(3) tu n'as pas travaillé pour 'you didn't work for it'<br>
<br>
A person using the preposition-last structure would be unlikely to use "ne ... pas" (and this was certainly true in 1928 and much earlier). "T'as pas travaillé pour" is more likely, although I am not familiar with this usage of "pour". Possibly, it arises
from the usage with relative clauses (as in (1)): so perhaps<span> </span><br>
a) T'as pas travaillé pour ÇA. ("ça" here is the topie). 'You didn't work for THAT'<br>
b) C'est pas ça que t'as travaillé pour. 'THAT is not what you worked for.'<br>
c) - ... ÇA... - T'as pas travaillé pour. (omitting the topic, which was mentioned in a previous sentence) 'You didn't work for IT'<br>
<br>
The origin of the preposition-last construction in "popular" (= uneducated) speech rules out recent calques from English, and is more likely to be found in extensions of popular syntax.<br>
<br>
As for the next and most recent example:<br>
<br>
(4) j'y suis pour<br>
<br>
it sounds very strange to me, Unlike the other examples, it is most likely to be a literal translation from English '(That's what) I am here for', but cross-influenced by the already existing popular structure. (Or the opposite could be true). <span> </span><br>
<br>
marie-lucie<br>
<br>
> Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:46:42 -0500<br>
> From:<span> </span><a href="mailto:hopper@cmu.edu" target="_blank">hopper@cmu.edu</a><br>
> To:<span> </span><a href="mailto:peter.e.hook@gmail.com" target="_blank">peter.e.hook@gmail.com</a><br>
> CC:<span> </span><a href="mailto:histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a>;<span> </span><a href="mailto:etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br" target="_blank">etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br</a><div>
<div><br>
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases<br>
><span> </span><br>
> The following examples are from Henri Bauche's book Le langage populaire.<br>
> Grammaire, syntaxe et dictionnaire du français tel qu’on le parle<br>
> dans le peuple de Paris, avec tous les termes d’argot usuel. Paris: Payot,<br>
> 1928.<br>
><span> </span><br>
> les femmes qu’il a couché avec “the women he’s slept with”<br>
> je lui ai couru après “I ran after him”<br>
> tu n’as pas travaillé pour "You didn't work for it"<br>
><span> </span><br>
> A few years ago Geoff Nathan (perhaps on HistLing) reported a waiter as<br>
> saying "J'y suis pour", presumably "that's what I'm here for".<br>
><span> </span><br>
> Bauche comments that these forms are often attributed to a Germanic<br>
> substratum, but says they are also found in Italian. True?<br>
><span> </span><br>
> Paul<br>
><span> </span><br>
><span> </span><br>
><span> </span><br>
><span> </span><br>
><span> </span><br>
><span> </span><br>
> > Hi Eduardo,<br>
> ><br>
> > An example of a stranded preposition in French [but no idea of where the<br>
> > writer is from]:<br>
> ><br>
> ><span> </span><a href="http://www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t" target="_blank">www.leforum.bistrophilo.fr/.../viewtopic.php?f...t</a>...<br>
> > Mar 3, 2009 - 10 posts - 6 authors<br>
> > Mmmm c'est délicieux ; on la mettait de côté et à la fin de la semaine il<br>
> > y<br>
> > en avait assez *pour faire une tarte avec* !<br>
> ><br>
> > Cheers,<br>
> ><br>
> > Peter Hook<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Koka <<a href="mailto:lachicadelgorro@hotmail.com" target="_blank">lachicadelgorro@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Dear Eduardo,<br>
> >><br>
> >> A recent account of the word order "Nada sé" (as opposed to "No sé<br>
> >> nada")<br>
> >> in Spanish by Octavio de Toledo attributes this word order to Latin<br>
> >> influence. You can check the paper (in Spanish) out here (<br>
> >><a href="https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_" target="_blank">https://www.academia.edu/2552836/Entre_gramaticalizacion_estructura_informativa_y_tradiciones_discursivas_algo_mas_sobre_nada_</a>).<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Hope it helps!<br>
> >><br>
> >> Carlota<br>
> >><br>
> >> > Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 01:09:15 -0500<br>
> >> > From:<span> </span><a href="mailto:kariri@gmail.com" target="_blank">kariri@gmail.com</a><br>
> >> > To:<span> </span><a href="mailto:etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br" target="_blank">etnolinguistica@yahoogrupos.com.br</a>;<span> </span><a href="mailto:histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a>;<br>
> >><span> </span><a href="mailto:LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org" target="_blank">LINGTYP@listserv.linguistlist.org</a><br>
> >> > Subject: [Histling-l] Borrowed word order in phrases<br>
> >><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > [apologies for cross-posting]<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Dear colleagues,<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > I'm looking for examples of languages where certain (types of) phrases<br>
> >> > present a different, borrowed word order when compared to a more<br>
> >> > common, inherited type. Well-known examples are, in English, legal<br>
> >> > terms in which the adjective follows the noun, preserving the original<br>
> >> > Norman French order: "attorney general", "court martial", etc.<br>
> >> > (Jespersen 1912:87-88).<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Are you aware of similar examples from other languages? And of cases<br>
> >> > in which the borrowed order, originally limited to borrowed lexemes,<br>
> >> > ended up becoming the default usage?<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > I would appreciate any insights and bibliographic references on this<br>
> >> topic.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Obrigado,<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > Eduardo<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > --<br>
> >> > Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista<br>
> >> ><span> </span><a href="http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9" target="_blank">http://etnolinguistica.org/perfil:9</a><br>
> >> > _______________________________________________<br>
> >> > Histling-l mailing list<br>
> >> ><span> </span><a href="mailto:Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a><br>
> >> ><span> </span><a href="https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l" target="_blank">https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> Histling-l mailing list<br>
> >><span> </span><a href="mailto:Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a><br>
> >><span> </span><a href="https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l" target="_blank">https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l</a><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Histling-l mailing list<br>
> ><span> </span><a href="mailto:Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu" target="_blank">Histling-l@mailman.rice.edu</a><br>
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> ><br>
><span> </span><br>
><span> </span><br>
> --<span> </span><br>
> Paul J. Hopper,<br>
> Paul Mellon Distinguished Professor of Humanities Emeritus,<br>
> Department of English,<br>
> Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences,<br>
> Carnegie Mellon University,<br>
> Pittsburgh, PA 15213,<br>
><span> </span><br>
> Adjunct Professor of Linguistics,<br>
> University of Pittsburgh<br>
><span> </span><br>
> Senior External Fellow,<br>
> School of Linguistics and Literature,<br>
> Freiburg Institute for Advanced Studies (FRIAS),<br>
> Freiburg i.Br., Germany<br>
><span> </span><br>
> Publications: <<a href="http://carnegie-mellon.academia.edu/PaulHopper" target="_blank">http://carnegie-mellon.academia.edu/PaulHopper</a>><br>
> <<a href="http://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=n2e7ANUAAAAJ" target="_blank">http://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=n2e7ANUAAAAJ</a><br>
><span> </span><br>
><span> </span><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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