From pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET Fri Oct 25 17:39:52 2002 From: pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET (pasxapu) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:39:52 -0700 Subject: Testing! Message-ID: Hello ILAT, This is a test. Phil Cash Cash -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeank at U.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Oct 25 17:56:00 2002 From: jeank at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Jean Kreis) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:56:00 -0700 Subject: Testing! Message-ID: Testing returned. This is a retest. Jean Kreis ----- Original Message ----- From: pasxapu To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:39 AM Subject: Testing! Hello ILAT, This is a test. Phil Cash Cash -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Sat Oct 26 13:22:02 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:22:02 -0400 Subject: Technical administrivia Message-ID: Hi Phil, I'd like to set up a couple of registries, one for character repetoires, one for character encodings, another for language names, maybe others as time goes by. Examples of character repetoires are abenaki.charset :: {a,c,d,e,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,s,t,u,w,z,8:',^} maliseet-passamaquoddy.charset :: {a,c,e,h,i,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,s,t,u,w,y:'} penobscot.charset :: {a,e,i,h,k,l,m,n,t,w:',schwa,alpha} Examples of character encodings are ASCII (a 7-bit encoding which we're using) and BJECree (an 8-bit encoding). Examples of language names ... uh, Ogibberish, Powow-Pigeon, ... Thanks for setting up ILAT! Eric From pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET Sat Oct 26 16:10:39 2002 From: pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET (phil cash cash) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:10:39 -0700 Subject: Technical administrivia In-Reply-To: <200210261322.g9QDM2lU012595@nic-naa.net> Message-ID: Hi Eric, Thanks for joining ILAT! Maybe as the list gets up and going, you can give everybody a primer on character encoding specifications, servers, user agents and what it all means for the average community language specialist/linguist (myself included). You should also mention your work in this area. Phil Cash Cash UofA > -----Original Message----- > From: Indigenous Languages and Technology > [mailto:ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu] On Behalf Of Eric Brunner-Williams in > Portland Maine > Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 6:22 AM > To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu > Subject: Technical administrivia > > Hi Phil, > > I'd like to set up a couple of registries, one for character repetoires, > one for character encodings, another for language names, maybe others as > time goes by. > > Examples of character repetoires are > abenaki.charset :: > {a,c,d,e,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,s,t,u,w,z,8:',^} > maliseet-passamaquoddy.charset :: > {a,c,e,h,i,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,s,t,u,w,y:'} > penobscot.charset :: > {a,e,i,h,k,l,m,n,t,w:',schwa,alpha} > > Examples of character encodings are ASCII (a 7-bit encoding which we're > using) and BJECree (an 8-bit encoding). > > Examples of language names ... uh, Ogibberish, Powow-Pigeon, ... > > Thanks for setting up ILAT! > > Eric From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Sat Oct 26 17:00:21 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:00:21 -0400 Subject: Technical administrivia In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:10:39 PDT." <000201c27d0a$3d835f80$63768796@vaio> Message-ID: > ... give everybody a primer on character encoding specifications, servers, > user agents and what it all means. Phil, Being wise, subtle, and behind on my bathing schedule, I wanted to sneak up on those critters from down-wind. At this point, they resemble buffalo from the time before our befores got clue -- they hook us and trample us and eat us. An ILAT registry would be someplace where we could share this information, both in memo form (e.g, "Eric and his Characters"), and the actual tables, along with versioning information as these progress, and variations. When an ILAT contributor wants to add to a repitoire, they do it (or send mail to me or you or our successors-in-interest, a dog's age from now). > You should also mention your work in this area. I'm one of two NDN computer scientists who contribut to the IETF (Mullen is the other), and previously I worked on internationalization (i18n) of Solaris and HP-UX. I spent last year working with the Chinese on i18n and the Internet (in Beijing), and am burnt out on Euro-Ams and Euro-centric "Universalism", (as are they) and am finally convinced that the only way to get "there" is to paddle our own canoe -- Two Rows style. I've tried everything else, this stuff has to be NDN Kontrolled, and UofA is high enough in the food chain. Eric From pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET Sat Oct 26 18:37:05 2002 From: pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET (phil cash cash) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:37:05 -0700 Subject: Technical administrivia In-Reply-To: <200210261700.g9QH0LlU013425@nic-naa.net> Message-ID: ...more Technical administrivia. Soon, I hope to have an ILAT web-site interface where it would be possible to direct people to, post information, links, and "memos" of the kind Eric is speaking of. For example, it would be possible to have memos of the kind: "Maliseet-passamaquoddy character encoding for the internet" "Nez Perce character encoding for the interenet" More as we progress. Phil Cash Cash (cayuse/nez perce) ILAT List Manager, UofA ps: In the next few days, I will post a background statement on how I and others have envisioned the purpose of this list. Stay tuned! > -----Original Message----- > From: Indigenous Languages and Technology > [mailto:ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu] On Behalf Of Eric Brunner-Williams in > Portland Maine > Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 10:00 AM > To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu > Subject: Re: Technical administrivia > > > ... give everybody a primer on character encoding specifications, > servers, > > user agents and what it all means. > > Phil, > > Being wise, subtle, and behind on my bathing schedule, I wanted to sneak > up > on those critters from down-wind. At this point, they resemble buffalo > from > the time before our befores got clue -- they hook us and trample us and > eat > us. > > An ILAT registry would be someplace where we could share this information, > both in memo form (e.g, "Eric and his Characters"), and the actual tables, > along with versioning information as these progress, and variations. When > an ILAT contributor wants to add to a repitoire, they do it (or send mail > to me or you or our successors-in-interest, a dog's age from now). > > > You should also mention your work in this area. > > I'm one of two NDN computer scientists who contribut to the IETF (Mullen > is the other), and previously I worked on internationalization (i18n) of > Solaris and HP-UX. I spent last year working with the Chinese on i18n and > the Internet (in Beijing), and am burnt out on Euro-Ams and Euro-centric > "Universalism", (as are they) and am finally convinced that the only way > to get "there" is to paddle our own canoe -- Two Rows style. > > I've tried everything else, this stuff has to be NDN Kontrolled, and UofA > is high enough in the food chain. > > Eric From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Sat Oct 26 19:26:16 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:26:16 -0400 Subject: Technical administrivia In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:37:05 PDT." <000001c27d1e$b2643e00$0b768796@vaio> Message-ID: Phil, For the time being, and ftp archive would suffice -- never let form get in the way of function, eh? What is the character repitoire for Nez Perce? For Cayuse? What are the collation (sort) orderings? Are you happy with the iso639 tags (language names) for these? How about the SIL names? I must be round the bend, I no longer ask "What's your tribe?", instead I ask "How do you write?" kitakitamatsino, Eric From dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU Mon Oct 28 14:44:22 2002 From: dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU (Dan Patnode) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:44:22 -0600 Subject: Technical administrivia Message-ID: OK, would you mind explaining what iso639 tags (language names) and SIL names are? Miigwech. Dan "While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- Only this and nothing more." "The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe --------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Patnode, Director mailto:dan at dsad.uwm.edu Student Support Services Program 414.229.3765 Mitchell Hall, Room 135B 414.229.6553(fax) University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee -----Original Message----- From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine [mailto:brunner at NIC-NAA.NET] Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 2:26 PM To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu Subject: Re: Technical administrivia Phil, For the time being, and ftp archive would suffice -- never let form get in the way of function, eh? What is the character repitoire for Nez Perce? For Cayuse? What are the collation (sort) orderings? Are you happy with the iso639 tags (language names) for these? How about the SIL names? I must be round the bend, I no longer ask "What's your tribe?", instead I ask "How do you write?" kitakitamatsino, Eric From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Mon Oct 28 15:56:01 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:56:01 -0500 Subject: Technical administrivia In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:44:22 CST." Message-ID: > OK, would you mind explaining what iso639 tags (language > names) and SIL names are? > > Miigwech. > > Dan > > "While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, > As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. > ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- > Only this and nothing more." > > "The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe Morning Dan, So there are these to strings in a bar, no, applications seperated by a wire, and for some reason they want to attempt to signal (maybe even agree on) what language to use, say for error messages, or maybe for .signatures. The two strings, uh, apps, need to find a common vocabulary, and one of the practices in the open (and closed) software industry is to use well-known repositories of labels. Lots of developers use iso639, which gives two and three letter tags for languages. "iso" == International Standards Organization" and "639" == Some pompous foolishness about languages. The ":1" strangely means there are 2 (ASCII) letters in the label, and the ":2: strangely means there are 3 (ASCII) letters in the label. Now the awkward bit for NDNs is a) there's damn little in iso639:1, updated in 2000, viz., ik (inupiaq), iu (inuktitut), nv (navajo), qu (quechua); nv added 2000 and b) the maintanence agency (MA) for iso639 is the US LoC, which has some blind spots owning to its authorization when it comes to us. See http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/englangn.html If that weren't a sufficient drag, who is responsible for the correct name for a living language (or evan a fondly remembered dead one)? Its users or the LoC? If I weren't fond of (a), I'd name everything and probably make some earlier naming choices seem dull. The Wycliffe Bible Translation Society, later renamed The Summer Institute for Linguistics, and presently SIL International, is SIL, and while they haven't generated two- and three-letter abbreviations for language names, their zeal to spread the word has caused them to be aware of more languages, in the Americas and elsewhere, then the LoC in its role as the ISO 639 MA. I frequently run into Internet-Drafts that casually assume that no two stings, uh, apps, will ever attempt to use a language that doesn't have an iso639:1 tag. The same holds for open-and-shut software developers. This is usually so that the apps don't have to attempt to parse a variable- length string (I knew there was a string in here just waiting to assert its existance) instead of a two-octet blob, and maybe guess if "American" and "English" actually are interoperable. Internet-Drafts occasionally morph into RFCs and people get uptight about being conformat to them, or POSIX, or some other standard, eventually. After the iso639 dance, there is iso3166. The rule for iso3166 dancing is you have to have your own country. HMS Bounty descendents have one, as do Jersy cows, and some other remarkable bits of International Postal Union trivia. You don't have one, but Greenlanders do, as do Nunavuters, and good day one could claim some Mayans have one. So, if you want a string, you have to either ask someone who may take glacial time or require a hall pass from your national standards body (ANSI for Yanks, Standards Canada for Canuks), or you have to be responsible for the string. I got a bad case of strings. Eric "J'ai perdu quelque chose... quelque part... dans mes reves, les gens ont commence a parler ... en anglais." Caroline Ennis, Walastakwaik (Maleseet) From cashcash at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Oct 29 04:33:26 2002 From: cashcash at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Phil Cash Cash) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:33:26 -0700 Subject: Greetings ILAT Members! Message-ID: Welcome to ILAT! The Indigenous Lanaguages and Technology Discussion List Many of you have just joined and after day 4 of posting ILAT we are near 50 members! I anticipate that number will double by the end of this week! The incredibly good news is that ILAT is quickly becoming composed of a rich, culturally diverse group of people such as tribal/indigenous community language specialists, teachers, speakers, students, international and national scholars, linguists, computer scientists, language advocates, and interested individuals from many parts of the globe. ILAT's overall goal is to create and sustain an open dialogue on issues relating to the uses of technology in langauge revitalization efforts. Naturally, I will leave this important task to you the ILAT members! I am very excited to play my small part in the creation of ILAT by helping contribute to the much bigger cause of language revitalization. The idea for the ILAT list grew out of the positive life affirming language work that is being carried out here at the University of Arizona and elsewhere. In the days ahead, I hope to create a web interface for ILAT. Just briefly, I am a Cayuse/Nez Perce speaker/student/scholar in the second year of my Ph.D program in the Joint Program of Anthropology and Linguistics here at [ishtishnima 'the cactus place'] the University of Arizona. I am very much interested in all facets of language/linguistic work. Among the more interesting things that I have been working on lately is that I have been trying to enhance some digitized wax cylinder recordings of spoken Nez Perce from 1911 and reconstructing Cayuse, an extinct lanague isolate. I encourage all ILAT members to begin your discussions and introductions (if you are so inspired)! Phil Cash Cash (cayuse/nez perce) ILAT Manager, UofA etc., etc.... cashcash at u.arizona.edu pasxapu at dakotacom.net From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Tue Oct 29 12:57:22 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:57:22 -0500 Subject: Lack of Character (or her many horses) Message-ID: Oki && kwai folks, So I was at HP's Cupertino Operating System Lab (COSL), slogging away on a contract to working on about one hundred programmer utilities -- coding in C on HP-UX 10.x, for HP-UX 10.x and 11.x, adding code to handle characters encoded using Extended Unix enCoding (EUC) around the existing code for an earlier HP encoding that used 15 bits in two bytes for Asian languages. A co-worker dropped a then-current HP Labs journal off at my desk, cause it had a piece on how some kids were using fancy HP boxes with graphic monitors to send mail to each other using syllabics. Nanook got email. Nice bit of corporate right-thinking to donate some boxes, but it is really hard to sort or collate or even scale bitmaps that look like characters, but really are just bimaps. By a quirk of fate, at the time I'd typing elements for an IBM Selectric for Inuktitut Syllabics. Still got em. Lost the Selectric though. I'd seen photos of Siksika missionary schools with school marms and school kids and on the walls syllabic tables and syllabics on the chalkboards, but everything current is in roman, and diacritically simplified roman at that, so ASCII suited me fine. The kids in the HP Journal were using HP-UX and X11 and bitmapped displays as digital scissors-and-glue to cut-and-paste pictures of characters. It was a step back from an IBM Selectric and a syllabic type ball and paper. Ten HP systems at $5,000 each -- a whole school budget sized "gift" wasted on very inappropriate tech. I'm running for school board -- bigger school, under 10% Tribal, and I don't want gifts like this from corporations -- like laptops at a discount for the 8th graders -- CDs and the net -- all show, no song. Literacy can be based upon caligraphy -- glyphs-as-art. The invention of wood-block printing caused a tendency towards orderings of Han characters, and _much_ later, Latin characters. To sort/compare/search/... to do the things text editors and text formatters do, the stuff that makes the computer a useful tool for writers and readers, a character model is required. Anyone got any characters? To put it another way, my wife has 256 horses (8 bits worth), and suggested I brand them usefully. Half of them (7 bits worth) I brand with the English brands, because our horses must run with American horses. I brand a few with the French and Spanish marks, becuase our horses must run with Quebec horses and others may want to run our horses with Spanish horses. That leaves some horses unbranded. A "barred-l" would be good, and an "a-cedille" (Navajo) My only hard criteria is "must be used in a community-based language program", cause if I let linguistic anthropologists slip into the corral, I'd have to get a larger herd of horses, most of whom would be dead or looking forward to the inside of a can. Of course, people can continue to use ASCII or one of the European 8-bit character sets and work around the limitations. We've gotten this far on borrowed horses, maybe this is as far as we get. A minor BIA note in 2050 may record that literacy "in Indian" was victim of the peacefull typewritter, and its successor, the computer, and no shots were fired by the government. kitakitamatsino (it does look nicer in syllabics) Eric "J'ai perdu quelque chose... quelque part... dans mes reves, les gens ont commence a parler ... en anglais." Caroline Ennis, Walastakwaik (Maleseet) From sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Oct 29 14:07:11 2002 From: sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Susan D. Penfield) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:07:11 -0600 Subject: U of A Project Message-ID: Greetings, First, I'd like to thank Phil Cash Cash for getting this list up and going and thanks also to all who have so joined and participated so quickly. This speaks to a strong shared desire to understand and promote the realm of technology as it relates to language revitalization. The U of Arizona recently received a large grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation to build a model for training tribal members to work with technology related to language learning. Our project will specifically train members of the Colorado River Indian tribes, specifically speakers its two most endangered languages( Mohave and Chemehuevi), for the purpose of developing this model of both technology and training which will then be disseminated through a website ( under construction). This project will include work with the Critical Languages program and the Faculty Center for Instruction and Innovation as well as the Department of English. Those of us involved in this project will particularly welcome the discussions on this list. We are open to ideas about any technology that is currently being used to promote language learning ( hence revitalization). As an applied linguist, who has been working with the CRIT tribes for many years, I'm extremely excited about this project. However, there is a lot of work to be done and sharing information will be a very important part of that. We welcome comments, questions, ideas and any discussion which will promote a better understanding of how technology (of all types) might enhance language revitalization efforts. Best, Susan Susan D. Penfield, Ph.D. Department of English University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Oct 29 23:35:57 2002 From: sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Susan D. Penfield) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:35:57 -0600 Subject: UofA and CRIT Message-ID: Eric and all- I can offer only a weak answer to some of Eric's questions regarding the work planned with Mohave and Chemehuevi: Both groups are working with orthographies that are keyboard compatible. We will be looking at programming issues for other languages which are not so easily adaptable to technology ( and will be able to answer the questions better a few months from now...) Also, I'd like to make it very clear that the Gates Foundation grant is very much a collaborative grant between CRIT and the UA. In fact, the Gates program specifically funds tribal libraries-- our work here is just an extension of that and will be focused on supplying training in technology for work the tribal languages consistent with what CRIT tribal members find attractive and useful. Regards, Susan Susan D. Penfield, Ph.D. Department of English University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU Wed Oct 30 17:22:09 2002 From: dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU (Dan Patnode) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:22:09 -0600 Subject: UofA and CRIT Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Susan D. Penfield [mailto:sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 5:36 PM To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu Subject: UofA and CRIT Eric and all- I can offer only a weak answer to some of Eric's questions regarding the work planned with Mohave and Chemehuevi: Both groups are working with orthographies that are keyboard compatible. We will be looking at programming issues for other languages which are not so easily adaptable to technology... When you speak of "other languages which are not so easily adaptable to technology" are you speaking simply of languages which utilize orthographies not represented on standard keyboards or are your referring to deeper challenges? Dan "While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- Only this and nothing more." "The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe --------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Patnode, Director mailto:dan at dsad.uwm.edu Student Support Services Program 414.229.3765 Mitchell Hall, Room 135B 414.229.6553(fax) University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee From sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Oct 30 17:23:06 2002 From: sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Susan D. Penfield) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:23:06 -0700 Subject: UofA and CRIT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dan - Right now I'm just refering to orthographies -- I'm not a super tech person- more focused on traditional language pedagogy. There are many more tech-savvy people than I involved. We certainly will be attentive to deeper challenges if they occur. This project is still in the planning stage so I can't offer more right now S. >-- Original Message -- >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:22:09 -0600 >Reply-To: Indigenous Languages and Technology >From: Dan Patnode >Subject: Re: UofA and CRIT >To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Susan D. Penfield [mailto:sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU] >Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 5:36 PM >To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu >Subject: UofA and CRIT > > >Eric and all- > >I can offer only a weak answer to some of Eric's questions regarding the >work planned with Mohave and Chemehuevi: Both groups are working with >orthographies >that are keyboard compatible. We will be looking at programming issues for >other languages which are not so easily adaptable to technology... > > >When you speak of "other languages which are not so easily adaptable to >technology" are you speaking simply of languages which utilize orthographies >not represented on standard keyboards or are your referring to deeper >challenges? > >Dan > >"While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, > As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. > ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- > Only this and nothing more." > >"The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Dan Patnode, Director mailto:dan at dsad.uwm.edu >Student Support Services Program 414.229.3765 >Mitchell Hall, Room 135B 414.229.6553(fax) >University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Susan D. Penfield, Ph.D. Department of English University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Wed Oct 30 17:38:30 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:38:30 -0500 Subject: UofA and CRIT In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:22:09 CST." Message-ID: Dan, I was puzzled by that too. A common problem is that few groups have a standard orthography. In Abenaki we have "w" or "ou" or "8" (that's a "u" on top of an "o", from the time when French didn't actually have a "w"). In Siksika we have with diacriticals and without. In archaic Siksika we have syllabics and romanesque orthographies. Some community programs have adopted to the qwerty repitoire, like the Old Sun School and modern Siksika, which is diacritically simplified. Some are still "digging their way out" from the speed-writing gibberish of the late-19th century and the IPA damage of the 20th century, and haven't yet reached the point of looking at typography as a cost of doing business. Here'e some more charsets: Siksika/Cree/Tsitsistas Charsets siksika.charset :: {a,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,t,w,y:`,acute-vowel} cree.charset :: {a,c,e,g,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,w,y:^} tsitsistas.charset :: {a,e,h,k,',m,n,o,p,s,s,t,v,x:',^} The usual caveat, these come from current community teaching programs, not from external sources. Kitakitamatsinopowaw && Adio (wicked shorter in Abenaki, neh?) Eric From dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU Wed Oct 30 17:58:20 2002 From: dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU (Dan Patnode) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:58:20 -0600 Subject: IPA damage of the 20th century Message-ID: OK, not trying to start anything Eric, and I do appreciate your explanations...but I am curious about your reference to "the IPA damage of the 20th century". Dan "While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- Only this and nothing more." "The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe --------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Patnode, Director mailto:dan at dsad.uwm.edu Student Support Services Program 414.229.3765 Mitchell Hall, Room 135B 414.229.6553(fax) University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee -----Original Message----- From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine [mailto:brunner at NIC-NAA.NET] Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:39 AM To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu Subject: Re: UofA and CRIT Dan, I was puzzled by that too. A common problem is that few groups have a standard orthography. In Abenaki we have "w" or "ou" or "8" (that's a "u" on top of an "o", from the time when French didn't actually have a "w"). In Siksika we have with diacriticals and without. In archaic Siksika we have syllabics and romanesque orthographies. Some community programs have adopted to the qwerty repitoire, like the Old Sun School and modern Siksika, which is diacritically simplified. Some are still "digging their way out" from the speed-writing gibberish of the late-19th century and the IPA damage of the 20th century, and haven't yet reached the point of looking at typography as a cost of doing business. Here'e some more charsets: Siksika/Cree/Tsitsistas Charsets siksika.charset :: {a,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,t,w,y:`,acute-vowel} cree.charset :: {a,c,e,g,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,w,y:^} tsitsistas.charset :: {a,e,h,k,',m,n,o,p,s,s,t,v,x:',^} The usual caveat, these come from current community teaching programs, not from external sources. Kitakitamatsinopowaw && Adio (wicked shorter in Abenaki, neh?) Eric From sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Oct 30 18:16:03 2002 From: sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Susan D. Penfield) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:16:03 -0700 Subject: IPA damage of the 20th century In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dan, Eric and all, I should add that we are well aware that there will be issues like this to deal with--so your ideas and comments are very welcome. Navajo has many diacritics as do most languages, other than Mohave and Chemehuevi, here in the Southwest. So work will need to be done involving character sets, etc. Part of the purpose in pushing for Mohave and Chemehuevi right now has to do with the availability of computers in the CRIT tribal library, with the highly endangered state of both of these languages, and with the willingness and interest of tribal members in learning technology. S. >-- Original Message -- >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:58:20 -0600 >Reply-To: Indigenous Languages and Technology >From: Dan Patnode >Subject: IPA damage of the 20th century >To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu > > >OK, not trying to start anything Eric, and I do appreciate your >explanations...but I am curious about your reference to "the IPA damage of >the 20th century". > >Dan > >"While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, > As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. > ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- > Only this and nothing more." > >"The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Dan Patnode, Director mailto:dan at dsad.uwm.edu >Student Support Services Program 414.229.3765 >Mitchell Hall, Room 135B 414.229.6553(fax) >University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine >[mailto:brunner at NIC-NAA.NET] >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:39 AM >To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu >Subject: Re: UofA and CRIT > > >Dan, > >I was puzzled by that too. > >A common problem is that few groups have a standard orthography. > >In Abenaki we have "w" or "ou" or "8" (that's a "u" on top of an "o", from >the time when French didn't actually have a "w"). > >In Siksika we have with diacriticals and without. In archaic Siksika we have >syllabics and romanesque orthographies. > >Some community programs have adopted to the qwerty repitoire, like the Old >Sun School and modern Siksika, which is diacritically simplified. > >Some are still "digging their way out" from the speed-writing gibberish of >the late-19th century and the IPA damage of the 20th century, and haven't >yet reached the point of looking at typography as a cost of doing business. > >Here'e some more charsets: > >Siksika/Cree/Tsitsistas Charsets > > siksika.charset :: > {a,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,t,w,y:`,acute-vowel} > cree.charset :: > {a,c,e,g,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,w,y:^} > tsitsistas.charset :: > {a,e,h,k,',m,n,o,p,s,s,t,v,x:',^} > >The usual caveat, these come from current community teaching programs, not >from external sources. > >Kitakitamatsinopowaw && Adio (wicked shorter in Abenaki, neh?) >Eric Susan D. Penfield, Ph.D. Department of English University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Wed Oct 30 18:38:09 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:38:09 -0500 Subject: IPA damage of the 20th century In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:58:20 CST." Message-ID: Dan, Somewhere at UofA there is a copy of some version of Unicode. I've got an almost current one on my desk -- version 3.0 (current is 3.1). I wish IPA referred to India Pale Ale, find one (unless that is not wise), and go over to the UofA's CS library and get the Unicode 3.0 tome out and turn to code points 0x021A-0x0233, 94 squigglie thingies. Penobscots have schwa. Turn to spacing modier letters (0x02B0-0x02C2) and you can find a wee little "w", also in Penobscot. Phonetic modifiers derived from Latin sounds nice, but in practice -- ugh. Latin Extended-B has the Abenaki "8". So, start with the contact literatures, its what I see a lot of, in English and French. The Euros-of-the-Period (EotP) wrote with transliteration "on". By the time the shooting stops, high-science has replaced religion and business requirements for Indian writing. EotP write with transliteration "off". Enter the typewritter and all the speed-writing systems as the modern female secretary-cum-dictaphone is socially invented, and you get the 19th century, a gazillion syllabaries with Germano-Scientific notation schemes. Fast forward to the the ernest anthros of the WPA period recording the last gasps of Tonto and you get a whole new layer of garbage, and the EotP write with transliteration "off". Of the three, the first was the better approach. The PRC went through a writing reform, now there is simplified and traditional characters. It wasn't painless. It did expand literacy in the PRC. Since I've mentioned Unicode, I'll send one bottle of IPA to the first ILAT subscriber who finds both errors on pages 456 and 457 of Unicode 3.0 A 2nd bottle goes to the first ILAT subscriber who can dvine how these errors got in Unicode. Well, Dzidzi is crying, so Kitakita--kitcat, Eric From HeitshuS at U.LIBRARY.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Oct 31 22:20:04 2002 From: HeitshuS at U.LIBRARY.ARIZONA.EDU (Heitshu, Sara) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:20:04 -0700 Subject: ARticle on Mapping Languages Message-ID: Thought this might be of interest to some. The Library has ArcView 8.1 and ArcView 3.3 in the Information Commons on all the PC's. You need to bring your data and then you are set to go. Sara Sara C. Heitshu Librarian, Social Sciences Team American Indian Studies, Linguistics, Philosophy Main Library A211 Phone 520-621-2297 Fax 520-621-9733 heitshus at u.library.arizona.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET Fri Oct 25 17:39:52 2002 From: pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET (pasxapu) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:39:52 -0700 Subject: Testing! Message-ID: Hello ILAT, This is a test. Phil Cash Cash -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeank at U.ARIZONA.EDU Fri Oct 25 17:56:00 2002 From: jeank at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Jean Kreis) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 10:56:00 -0700 Subject: Testing! Message-ID: Testing returned. This is a retest. Jean Kreis ----- Original Message ----- From: pasxapu To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:39 AM Subject: Testing! Hello ILAT, This is a test. Phil Cash Cash -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Sat Oct 26 13:22:02 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:22:02 -0400 Subject: Technical administrivia Message-ID: Hi Phil, I'd like to set up a couple of registries, one for character repetoires, one for character encodings, another for language names, maybe others as time goes by. Examples of character repetoires are abenaki.charset :: {a,c,d,e,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,s,t,u,w,z,8:',^} maliseet-passamaquoddy.charset :: {a,c,e,h,i,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,s,t,u,w,y:'} penobscot.charset :: {a,e,i,h,k,l,m,n,t,w:',schwa,alpha} Examples of character encodings are ASCII (a 7-bit encoding which we're using) and BJECree (an 8-bit encoding). Examples of language names ... uh, Ogibberish, Powow-Pigeon, ... Thanks for setting up ILAT! Eric From pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET Sat Oct 26 16:10:39 2002 From: pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET (phil cash cash) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:10:39 -0700 Subject: Technical administrivia In-Reply-To: <200210261322.g9QDM2lU012595@nic-naa.net> Message-ID: Hi Eric, Thanks for joining ILAT! Maybe as the list gets up and going, you can give everybody a primer on character encoding specifications, servers, user agents and what it all means for the average community language specialist/linguist (myself included). You should also mention your work in this area. Phil Cash Cash UofA > -----Original Message----- > From: Indigenous Languages and Technology > [mailto:ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu] On Behalf Of Eric Brunner-Williams in > Portland Maine > Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 6:22 AM > To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu > Subject: Technical administrivia > > Hi Phil, > > I'd like to set up a couple of registries, one for character repetoires, > one for character encodings, another for language names, maybe others as > time goes by. > > Examples of character repetoires are > abenaki.charset :: > {a,c,d,e,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,s,t,u,w,z,8:',^} > maliseet-passamaquoddy.charset :: > {a,c,e,h,i,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,s,t,u,w,y:'} > penobscot.charset :: > {a,e,i,h,k,l,m,n,t,w:',schwa,alpha} > > Examples of character encodings are ASCII (a 7-bit encoding which we're > using) and BJECree (an 8-bit encoding). > > Examples of language names ... uh, Ogibberish, Powow-Pigeon, ... > > Thanks for setting up ILAT! > > Eric From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Sat Oct 26 17:00:21 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:00:21 -0400 Subject: Technical administrivia In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 26 Oct 2002 09:10:39 PDT." <000201c27d0a$3d835f80$63768796@vaio> Message-ID: > ... give everybody a primer on character encoding specifications, servers, > user agents and what it all means. Phil, Being wise, subtle, and behind on my bathing schedule, I wanted to sneak up on those critters from down-wind. At this point, they resemble buffalo from the time before our befores got clue -- they hook us and trample us and eat us. An ILAT registry would be someplace where we could share this information, both in memo form (e.g, "Eric and his Characters"), and the actual tables, along with versioning information as these progress, and variations. When an ILAT contributor wants to add to a repitoire, they do it (or send mail to me or you or our successors-in-interest, a dog's age from now). > You should also mention your work in this area. I'm one of two NDN computer scientists who contribut to the IETF (Mullen is the other), and previously I worked on internationalization (i18n) of Solaris and HP-UX. I spent last year working with the Chinese on i18n and the Internet (in Beijing), and am burnt out on Euro-Ams and Euro-centric "Universalism", (as are they) and am finally convinced that the only way to get "there" is to paddle our own canoe -- Two Rows style. I've tried everything else, this stuff has to be NDN Kontrolled, and UofA is high enough in the food chain. Eric From pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET Sat Oct 26 18:37:05 2002 From: pasxapu at DAKOTACOM.NET (phil cash cash) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:37:05 -0700 Subject: Technical administrivia In-Reply-To: <200210261700.g9QH0LlU013425@nic-naa.net> Message-ID: ...more Technical administrivia. Soon, I hope to have an ILAT web-site interface where it would be possible to direct people to, post information, links, and "memos" of the kind Eric is speaking of. For example, it would be possible to have memos of the kind: "Maliseet-passamaquoddy character encoding for the internet" "Nez Perce character encoding for the interenet" More as we progress. Phil Cash Cash (cayuse/nez perce) ILAT List Manager, UofA ps: In the next few days, I will post a background statement on how I and others have envisioned the purpose of this list. Stay tuned! > -----Original Message----- > From: Indigenous Languages and Technology > [mailto:ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu] On Behalf Of Eric Brunner-Williams in > Portland Maine > Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 10:00 AM > To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu > Subject: Re: Technical administrivia > > > ... give everybody a primer on character encoding specifications, > servers, > > user agents and what it all means. > > Phil, > > Being wise, subtle, and behind on my bathing schedule, I wanted to sneak > up > on those critters from down-wind. At this point, they resemble buffalo > from > the time before our befores got clue -- they hook us and trample us and > eat > us. > > An ILAT registry would be someplace where we could share this information, > both in memo form (e.g, "Eric and his Characters"), and the actual tables, > along with versioning information as these progress, and variations. When > an ILAT contributor wants to add to a repitoire, they do it (or send mail > to me or you or our successors-in-interest, a dog's age from now). > > > You should also mention your work in this area. > > I'm one of two NDN computer scientists who contribut to the IETF (Mullen > is the other), and previously I worked on internationalization (i18n) of > Solaris and HP-UX. I spent last year working with the Chinese on i18n and > the Internet (in Beijing), and am burnt out on Euro-Ams and Euro-centric > "Universalism", (as are they) and am finally convinced that the only way > to get "there" is to paddle our own canoe -- Two Rows style. > > I've tried everything else, this stuff has to be NDN Kontrolled, and UofA > is high enough in the food chain. > > Eric From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Sat Oct 26 19:26:16 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:26:16 -0400 Subject: Technical administrivia In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:37:05 PDT." <000001c27d1e$b2643e00$0b768796@vaio> Message-ID: Phil, For the time being, and ftp archive would suffice -- never let form get in the way of function, eh? What is the character repitoire for Nez Perce? For Cayuse? What are the collation (sort) orderings? Are you happy with the iso639 tags (language names) for these? How about the SIL names? I must be round the bend, I no longer ask "What's your tribe?", instead I ask "How do you write?" kitakitamatsino, Eric From dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU Mon Oct 28 14:44:22 2002 From: dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU (Dan Patnode) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:44:22 -0600 Subject: Technical administrivia Message-ID: OK, would you mind explaining what iso639 tags (language names) and SIL names are? Miigwech. Dan "While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- Only this and nothing more." "The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe --------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Patnode, Director mailto:dan at dsad.uwm.edu Student Support Services Program 414.229.3765 Mitchell Hall, Room 135B 414.229.6553(fax) University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee -----Original Message----- From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine [mailto:brunner at NIC-NAA.NET] Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 2:26 PM To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu Subject: Re: Technical administrivia Phil, For the time being, and ftp archive would suffice -- never let form get in the way of function, eh? What is the character repitoire for Nez Perce? For Cayuse? What are the collation (sort) orderings? Are you happy with the iso639 tags (language names) for these? How about the SIL names? I must be round the bend, I no longer ask "What's your tribe?", instead I ask "How do you write?" kitakitamatsino, Eric From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Mon Oct 28 15:56:01 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:56:01 -0500 Subject: Technical administrivia In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 28 Oct 2002 08:44:22 CST." Message-ID: > OK, would you mind explaining what iso639 tags (language > names) and SIL names are? > > Miigwech. > > Dan > > "While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, > As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. > ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- > Only this and nothing more." > > "The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe Morning Dan, So there are these to strings in a bar, no, applications seperated by a wire, and for some reason they want to attempt to signal (maybe even agree on) what language to use, say for error messages, or maybe for .signatures. The two strings, uh, apps, need to find a common vocabulary, and one of the practices in the open (and closed) software industry is to use well-known repositories of labels. Lots of developers use iso639, which gives two and three letter tags for languages. "iso" == International Standards Organization" and "639" == Some pompous foolishness about languages. The ":1" strangely means there are 2 (ASCII) letters in the label, and the ":2: strangely means there are 3 (ASCII) letters in the label. Now the awkward bit for NDNs is a) there's damn little in iso639:1, updated in 2000, viz., ik (inupiaq), iu (inuktitut), nv (navajo), qu (quechua); nv added 2000 and b) the maintanence agency (MA) for iso639 is the US LoC, which has some blind spots owning to its authorization when it comes to us. See http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/englangn.html If that weren't a sufficient drag, who is responsible for the correct name for a living language (or evan a fondly remembered dead one)? Its users or the LoC? If I weren't fond of (a), I'd name everything and probably make some earlier naming choices seem dull. The Wycliffe Bible Translation Society, later renamed The Summer Institute for Linguistics, and presently SIL International, is SIL, and while they haven't generated two- and three-letter abbreviations for language names, their zeal to spread the word has caused them to be aware of more languages, in the Americas and elsewhere, then the LoC in its role as the ISO 639 MA. I frequently run into Internet-Drafts that casually assume that no two stings, uh, apps, will ever attempt to use a language that doesn't have an iso639:1 tag. The same holds for open-and-shut software developers. This is usually so that the apps don't have to attempt to parse a variable- length string (I knew there was a string in here just waiting to assert its existance) instead of a two-octet blob, and maybe guess if "American" and "English" actually are interoperable. Internet-Drafts occasionally morph into RFCs and people get uptight about being conformat to them, or POSIX, or some other standard, eventually. After the iso639 dance, there is iso3166. The rule for iso3166 dancing is you have to have your own country. HMS Bounty descendents have one, as do Jersy cows, and some other remarkable bits of International Postal Union trivia. You don't have one, but Greenlanders do, as do Nunavuters, and good day one could claim some Mayans have one. So, if you want a string, you have to either ask someone who may take glacial time or require a hall pass from your national standards body (ANSI for Yanks, Standards Canada for Canuks), or you have to be responsible for the string. I got a bad case of strings. Eric "J'ai perdu quelque chose... quelque part... dans mes reves, les gens ont commence a parler ... en anglais." Caroline Ennis, Walastakwaik (Maleseet) From cashcash at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Oct 29 04:33:26 2002 From: cashcash at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Phil Cash Cash) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:33:26 -0700 Subject: Greetings ILAT Members! Message-ID: Welcome to ILAT! The Indigenous Lanaguages and Technology Discussion List Many of you have just joined and after day 4 of posting ILAT we are near 50 members! I anticipate that number will double by the end of this week! The incredibly good news is that ILAT is quickly becoming composed of a rich, culturally diverse group of people such as tribal/indigenous community language specialists, teachers, speakers, students, international and national scholars, linguists, computer scientists, language advocates, and interested individuals from many parts of the globe. ILAT's overall goal is to create and sustain an open dialogue on issues relating to the uses of technology in langauge revitalization efforts. Naturally, I will leave this important task to you the ILAT members! I am very excited to play my small part in the creation of ILAT by helping contribute to the much bigger cause of language revitalization. The idea for the ILAT list grew out of the positive life affirming language work that is being carried out here at the University of Arizona and elsewhere. In the days ahead, I hope to create a web interface for ILAT. Just briefly, I am a Cayuse/Nez Perce speaker/student/scholar in the second year of my Ph.D program in the Joint Program of Anthropology and Linguistics here at [ishtishnima 'the cactus place'] the University of Arizona. I am very much interested in all facets of language/linguistic work. Among the more interesting things that I have been working on lately is that I have been trying to enhance some digitized wax cylinder recordings of spoken Nez Perce from 1911 and reconstructing Cayuse, an extinct lanague isolate. I encourage all ILAT members to begin your discussions and introductions (if you are so inspired)! Phil Cash Cash (cayuse/nez perce) ILAT Manager, UofA etc., etc.... cashcash at u.arizona.edu pasxapu at dakotacom.net From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Tue Oct 29 12:57:22 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:57:22 -0500 Subject: Lack of Character (or her many horses) Message-ID: Oki && kwai folks, So I was at HP's Cupertino Operating System Lab (COSL), slogging away on a contract to working on about one hundred programmer utilities -- coding in C on HP-UX 10.x, for HP-UX 10.x and 11.x, adding code to handle characters encoded using Extended Unix enCoding (EUC) around the existing code for an earlier HP encoding that used 15 bits in two bytes for Asian languages. A co-worker dropped a then-current HP Labs journal off at my desk, cause it had a piece on how some kids were using fancy HP boxes with graphic monitors to send mail to each other using syllabics. Nanook got email. Nice bit of corporate right-thinking to donate some boxes, but it is really hard to sort or collate or even scale bitmaps that look like characters, but really are just bimaps. By a quirk of fate, at the time I'd typing elements for an IBM Selectric for Inuktitut Syllabics. Still got em. Lost the Selectric though. I'd seen photos of Siksika missionary schools with school marms and school kids and on the walls syllabic tables and syllabics on the chalkboards, but everything current is in roman, and diacritically simplified roman at that, so ASCII suited me fine. The kids in the HP Journal were using HP-UX and X11 and bitmapped displays as digital scissors-and-glue to cut-and-paste pictures of characters. It was a step back from an IBM Selectric and a syllabic type ball and paper. Ten HP systems at $5,000 each -- a whole school budget sized "gift" wasted on very inappropriate tech. I'm running for school board -- bigger school, under 10% Tribal, and I don't want gifts like this from corporations -- like laptops at a discount for the 8th graders -- CDs and the net -- all show, no song. Literacy can be based upon caligraphy -- glyphs-as-art. The invention of wood-block printing caused a tendency towards orderings of Han characters, and _much_ later, Latin characters. To sort/compare/search/... to do the things text editors and text formatters do, the stuff that makes the computer a useful tool for writers and readers, a character model is required. Anyone got any characters? To put it another way, my wife has 256 horses (8 bits worth), and suggested I brand them usefully. Half of them (7 bits worth) I brand with the English brands, because our horses must run with American horses. I brand a few with the French and Spanish marks, becuase our horses must run with Quebec horses and others may want to run our horses with Spanish horses. That leaves some horses unbranded. A "barred-l" would be good, and an "a-cedille" (Navajo) My only hard criteria is "must be used in a community-based language program", cause if I let linguistic anthropologists slip into the corral, I'd have to get a larger herd of horses, most of whom would be dead or looking forward to the inside of a can. Of course, people can continue to use ASCII or one of the European 8-bit character sets and work around the limitations. We've gotten this far on borrowed horses, maybe this is as far as we get. A minor BIA note in 2050 may record that literacy "in Indian" was victim of the peacefull typewritter, and its successor, the computer, and no shots were fired by the government. kitakitamatsino (it does look nicer in syllabics) Eric "J'ai perdu quelque chose... quelque part... dans mes reves, les gens ont commence a parler ... en anglais." Caroline Ennis, Walastakwaik (Maleseet) From sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Oct 29 14:07:11 2002 From: sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Susan D. Penfield) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:07:11 -0600 Subject: U of A Project Message-ID: Greetings, First, I'd like to thank Phil Cash Cash for getting this list up and going and thanks also to all who have so joined and participated so quickly. This speaks to a strong shared desire to understand and promote the realm of technology as it relates to language revitalization. The U of Arizona recently received a large grant from the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation to build a model for training tribal members to work with technology related to language learning. Our project will specifically train members of the Colorado River Indian tribes, specifically speakers its two most endangered languages( Mohave and Chemehuevi), for the purpose of developing this model of both technology and training which will then be disseminated through a website ( under construction). This project will include work with the Critical Languages program and the Faculty Center for Instruction and Innovation as well as the Department of English. Those of us involved in this project will particularly welcome the discussions on this list. We are open to ideas about any technology that is currently being used to promote language learning ( hence revitalization). As an applied linguist, who has been working with the CRIT tribes for many years, I'm extremely excited about this project. However, there is a lot of work to be done and sharing information will be a very important part of that. We welcome comments, questions, ideas and any discussion which will promote a better understanding of how technology (of all types) might enhance language revitalization efforts. Best, Susan Susan D. Penfield, Ph.D. Department of English University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Tue Oct 29 23:35:57 2002 From: sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Susan D. Penfield) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:35:57 -0600 Subject: UofA and CRIT Message-ID: Eric and all- I can offer only a weak answer to some of Eric's questions regarding the work planned with Mohave and Chemehuevi: Both groups are working with orthographies that are keyboard compatible. We will be looking at programming issues for other languages which are not so easily adaptable to technology ( and will be able to answer the questions better a few months from now...) Also, I'd like to make it very clear that the Gates Foundation grant is very much a collaborative grant between CRIT and the UA. In fact, the Gates program specifically funds tribal libraries-- our work here is just an extension of that and will be focused on supplying training in technology for work the tribal languages consistent with what CRIT tribal members find attractive and useful. Regards, Susan Susan D. Penfield, Ph.D. Department of English University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU Wed Oct 30 17:22:09 2002 From: dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU (Dan Patnode) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:22:09 -0600 Subject: UofA and CRIT Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Susan D. Penfield [mailto:sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 5:36 PM To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu Subject: UofA and CRIT Eric and all- I can offer only a weak answer to some of Eric's questions regarding the work planned with Mohave and Chemehuevi: Both groups are working with orthographies that are keyboard compatible. We will be looking at programming issues for other languages which are not so easily adaptable to technology... When you speak of "other languages which are not so easily adaptable to technology" are you speaking simply of languages which utilize orthographies not represented on standard keyboards or are your referring to deeper challenges? Dan "While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- Only this and nothing more." "The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe --------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Patnode, Director mailto:dan at dsad.uwm.edu Student Support Services Program 414.229.3765 Mitchell Hall, Room 135B 414.229.6553(fax) University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee From sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Oct 30 17:23:06 2002 From: sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Susan D. Penfield) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 10:23:06 -0700 Subject: UofA and CRIT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dan - Right now I'm just refering to orthographies -- I'm not a super tech person- more focused on traditional language pedagogy. There are many more tech-savvy people than I involved. We certainly will be attentive to deeper challenges if they occur. This project is still in the planning stage so I can't offer more right now S. >-- Original Message -- >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:22:09 -0600 >Reply-To: Indigenous Languages and Technology >From: Dan Patnode >Subject: Re: UofA and CRIT >To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Susan D. Penfield [mailto:sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU] >Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 5:36 PM >To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu >Subject: UofA and CRIT > > >Eric and all- > >I can offer only a weak answer to some of Eric's questions regarding the >work planned with Mohave and Chemehuevi: Both groups are working with >orthographies >that are keyboard compatible. We will be looking at programming issues for >other languages which are not so easily adaptable to technology... > > >When you speak of "other languages which are not so easily adaptable to >technology" are you speaking simply of languages which utilize orthographies >not represented on standard keyboards or are your referring to deeper >challenges? > >Dan > >"While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, > As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. > ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- > Only this and nothing more." > >"The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Dan Patnode, Director mailto:dan at dsad.uwm.edu >Student Support Services Program 414.229.3765 >Mitchell Hall, Room 135B 414.229.6553(fax) >University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Susan D. Penfield, Ph.D. Department of English University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Wed Oct 30 17:38:30 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:38:30 -0500 Subject: UofA and CRIT In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:22:09 CST." Message-ID: Dan, I was puzzled by that too. A common problem is that few groups have a standard orthography. In Abenaki we have "w" or "ou" or "8" (that's a "u" on top of an "o", from the time when French didn't actually have a "w"). In Siksika we have with diacriticals and without. In archaic Siksika we have syllabics and romanesque orthographies. Some community programs have adopted to the qwerty repitoire, like the Old Sun School and modern Siksika, which is diacritically simplified. Some are still "digging their way out" from the speed-writing gibberish of the late-19th century and the IPA damage of the 20th century, and haven't yet reached the point of looking at typography as a cost of doing business. Here'e some more charsets: Siksika/Cree/Tsitsistas Charsets siksika.charset :: {a,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,t,w,y:`,acute-vowel} cree.charset :: {a,c,e,g,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,w,y:^} tsitsistas.charset :: {a,e,h,k,',m,n,o,p,s,s,t,v,x:',^} The usual caveat, these come from current community teaching programs, not from external sources. Kitakitamatsinopowaw && Adio (wicked shorter in Abenaki, neh?) Eric From dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU Wed Oct 30 17:58:20 2002 From: dan at DSAD.UWM.EDU (Dan Patnode) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:58:20 -0600 Subject: IPA damage of the 20th century Message-ID: OK, not trying to start anything Eric, and I do appreciate your explanations...but I am curious about your reference to "the IPA damage of the 20th century". Dan "While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- Only this and nothing more." "The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe --------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Patnode, Director mailto:dan at dsad.uwm.edu Student Support Services Program 414.229.3765 Mitchell Hall, Room 135B 414.229.6553(fax) University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee -----Original Message----- From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine [mailto:brunner at NIC-NAA.NET] Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:39 AM To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu Subject: Re: UofA and CRIT Dan, I was puzzled by that too. A common problem is that few groups have a standard orthography. In Abenaki we have "w" or "ou" or "8" (that's a "u" on top of an "o", from the time when French didn't actually have a "w"). In Siksika we have with diacriticals and without. In archaic Siksika we have syllabics and romanesque orthographies. Some community programs have adopted to the qwerty repitoire, like the Old Sun School and modern Siksika, which is diacritically simplified. Some are still "digging their way out" from the speed-writing gibberish of the late-19th century and the IPA damage of the 20th century, and haven't yet reached the point of looking at typography as a cost of doing business. Here'e some more charsets: Siksika/Cree/Tsitsistas Charsets siksika.charset :: {a,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,t,w,y:`,acute-vowel} cree.charset :: {a,c,e,g,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,w,y:^} tsitsistas.charset :: {a,e,h,k,',m,n,o,p,s,s,t,v,x:',^} The usual caveat, these come from current community teaching programs, not from external sources. Kitakitamatsinopowaw && Adio (wicked shorter in Abenaki, neh?) Eric From sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU Wed Oct 30 18:16:03 2002 From: sdp at EMAIL.ARIZONA.EDU (Susan D. Penfield) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:16:03 -0700 Subject: IPA damage of the 20th century In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dan, Eric and all, I should add that we are well aware that there will be issues like this to deal with--so your ideas and comments are very welcome. Navajo has many diacritics as do most languages, other than Mohave and Chemehuevi, here in the Southwest. So work will need to be done involving character sets, etc. Part of the purpose in pushing for Mohave and Chemehuevi right now has to do with the availability of computers in the CRIT tribal library, with the highly endangered state of both of these languages, and with the willingness and interest of tribal members in learning technology. S. >-- Original Message -- >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:58:20 -0600 >Reply-To: Indigenous Languages and Technology >From: Dan Patnode >Subject: IPA damage of the 20th century >To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu > > >OK, not trying to start anything Eric, and I do appreciate your >explanations...but I am curious about your reference to "the IPA damage of >the 20th century". > >Dan > >"While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, > As of someone gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. > ''T is some visitor,' I muttered "tapping at my chamber door--- > Only this and nothing more." > >"The Raven", Edgar Allen Poe >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Dan Patnode, Director mailto:dan at dsad.uwm.edu >Student Support Services Program 414.229.3765 >Mitchell Hall, Room 135B 414.229.6553(fax) >University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine >[mailto:brunner at NIC-NAA.NET] >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:39 AM >To: ILAT at listserv.arizona.edu >Subject: Re: UofA and CRIT > > >Dan, > >I was puzzled by that too. > >A common problem is that few groups have a standard orthography. > >In Abenaki we have "w" or "ou" or "8" (that's a "u" on top of an "o", from >the time when French didn't actually have a "w"). > >In Siksika we have with diacriticals and without. In archaic Siksika we have >syllabics and romanesque orthographies. > >Some community programs have adopted to the qwerty repitoire, like the Old >Sun School and modern Siksika, which is diacritically simplified. > >Some are still "digging their way out" from the speed-writing gibberish of >the late-19th century and the IPA damage of the 20th century, and haven't >yet reached the point of looking at typography as a cost of doing business. > >Here'e some more charsets: > >Siksika/Cree/Tsitsistas Charsets > > siksika.charset :: > {a,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,t,w,y:`,acute-vowel} > cree.charset :: > {a,c,e,g,h,i,k,m,n,o,p,s,w,y:^} > tsitsistas.charset :: > {a,e,h,k,',m,n,o,p,s,s,t,v,x:',^} > >The usual caveat, these come from current community teaching programs, not >from external sources. > >Kitakitamatsinopowaw && Adio (wicked shorter in Abenaki, neh?) >Eric Susan D. Penfield, Ph.D. Department of English University of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 From brunner at NIC-NAA.NET Wed Oct 30 18:38:09 2002 From: brunner at NIC-NAA.NET (Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 13:38:09 -0500 Subject: IPA damage of the 20th century In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 11:58:20 CST." Message-ID: Dan, Somewhere at UofA there is a copy of some version of Unicode. I've got an almost current one on my desk -- version 3.0 (current is 3.1). I wish IPA referred to India Pale Ale, find one (unless that is not wise), and go over to the UofA's CS library and get the Unicode 3.0 tome out and turn to code points 0x021A-0x0233, 94 squigglie thingies. Penobscots have schwa. Turn to spacing modier letters (0x02B0-0x02C2) and you can find a wee little "w", also in Penobscot. Phonetic modifiers derived from Latin sounds nice, but in practice -- ugh. Latin Extended-B has the Abenaki "8". So, start with the contact literatures, its what I see a lot of, in English and French. The Euros-of-the-Period (EotP) wrote with transliteration "on". By the time the shooting stops, high-science has replaced religion and business requirements for Indian writing. EotP write with transliteration "off". Enter the typewritter and all the speed-writing systems as the modern female secretary-cum-dictaphone is socially invented, and you get the 19th century, a gazillion syllabaries with Germano-Scientific notation schemes. Fast forward to the the ernest anthros of the WPA period recording the last gasps of Tonto and you get a whole new layer of garbage, and the EotP write with transliteration "off". Of the three, the first was the better approach. The PRC went through a writing reform, now there is simplified and traditional characters. It wasn't painless. It did expand literacy in the PRC. Since I've mentioned Unicode, I'll send one bottle of IPA to the first ILAT subscriber who finds both errors on pages 456 and 457 of Unicode 3.0 A 2nd bottle goes to the first ILAT subscriber who can dvine how these errors got in Unicode. Well, Dzidzi is crying, so Kitakita--kitcat, Eric From HeitshuS at U.LIBRARY.ARIZONA.EDU Thu Oct 31 22:20:04 2002 From: HeitshuS at U.LIBRARY.ARIZONA.EDU (Heitshu, Sara) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:20:04 -0700 Subject: ARticle on Mapping Languages Message-ID: Thought this might be of interest to some. The Library has ArcView 8.1 and ArcView 3.3 in the Information Commons on all the PC's. You need to bring your data and then you are set to go. Sara Sara C. Heitshu Librarian, Social Sciences Team American Indian Studies, Linguistics, Philosophy Main Library A211 Phone 520-621-2297 Fax 520-621-9733 heitshus at u.library.arizona.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: