Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project

Sun Sep 16 18:12:12 UTC 2007

Dear Joseph,
Just for the sake of clarity, I fully support your project of an online Anishinabe dictionary. If anything, I wish more people would get involved in revitalizing the language. Keep working on it and I am sure our paths will cross one day. Also, I hope that I didn't seem disrespectful when I addressed you as "Moshomis / or is it Joseph" lol...I simply wasn't sure if Moshomis was a title or something since Joseph is written at the head of your message. As far I knew, calling someone grandfather is a respectful way of addressing someone you admire or an elder man, so I wasn't sure if it actually was your everyday name! 

Good luck on your project and minupimadiz
Kevin Brousseau

Joseph Lavalley <graphfix at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:    .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }   Dear K. Brousseau,

It is both, Mishomis and Joseph, however for the purpose of English clarity please refer to me as Joseph, as I honour both names; the name my mother gave me which is Joseph and the name the people Anishnabek gave me which is Mishomis. Just because I am named Mishomis does not mean that I can not make errors in personal and professional judgement in matters that as important as creating an Ojibwe Online Dictionary. Wording can to different people mean different things; dependent upon life experience. Mine has been very undermined by people and I do try to take the time to understand where a person or group of people are coming from before I make a response to any letters or arguement proposed. I perhaps saw your statements as an anthema of continued doubt about the benefits of a dictionary. Due in part to the politicization of it. Mis-understanding can lead to more misunderstanding. For this I am sorry. Without your letter and subsequent letters of those that participated in
 this discussion about this project that I am currently working on, perhaps would not have had the opportunity to read other people's ideas and thoughts about this matter. For this I thank you as it gave me new perspective.

The complete idea of the Ojibwe online dictionary, was to give a place for Ojibwe words to have a common home. From there the people with voice or sound snippets, new words and a place for people from different communities to place their words there with a reference to those particular communities. This is so that the people themselves would have a forum to speak their language on-line and allow share language resources, ei. local speakers in their communities and exchange with those from other communities. Both in Canada and United States and in at least one case that I know of in Mexico. With that the people themselves can decide what is right or wrong and can transform the website into something they can be proud of. It will be a place of educational renewal of language and a place where educators can extract educational materials for courses at the primary, secondary and post-secondary levels. Thus, a more complete way of utilizing the language to its fullest extent.
 From there perhaps it can be a model for other such online sites for other languages.

Once again, I am only concerned with the Three Fires as far as language development goes for the Anishnabek, the rest can look at this work and see if it can fit their needs. If people wish to call themselves Anishnabek, then I suppose there are peripheral people of the language that I am not aware of and perhaps in the future look into it. As it is apart of what I am attempting to complete. They however do not have my priority at this time and being that I am only one person doing this project (meaning this project), I have to limit the scope to the three main bodies of the language which are the Ojibwe, the Pottatomi and the Ottawa. Once again, I am not attempting to standarize anything, I am attempting to unify. Unification meaning bring all the language to one place (internet) and allowing for the natural transmission of the language to happen. Eventually, they will all see a commonality in their languages and will make a suitable orthography that will serve their
 unique community needs and perhaps that will lead to dialogue in the political arena some day. If that happens then all the objectives of this online dictionary will be completed. Also, to give a place for the disemination of other dictionaries and orthographies for cross-comparision and examination for future generations. With that perhaps, the people will no longer be lost as to who they are. New culture will come forth. And that of the new millennium Anishnabe.  

When speaking of politics and language, when it comes to political boundaries, most people that I have heard from talk of 'standardization' and is incompatible with the local tribes of many nations that are attempting this. Naturally, being that the Algic language in itself being so very large and not to mention broad over a large body of land mass. This type of project is a many a lifetime project. I can only attempt to play my part by do this one thing. Once again, since I do not have the standing of a University nor have the extensive knowledge of linguists in the areas of Phonetics, Semantics, Snytax, Social-Linguistics and Anthro-Linguistics. I must endeavor to acquire these skills from a university. I am sure I could do it alone and leave this LISTSERV, however, too complete and have my work accepted by the Anishnabek communities that I am serving, I would require standing. Other then that I would be happy to have people who would rather help me. Provide me with
 resources and reference. Or point me to people that have specialized knowledge in the Algic languages that may help me further this project with meaningful data or datum. An in reciprocation, I could make this available to others for future reference, since we are all in this together, the building, re-discovering and learning about language, their people and perhaps environment. With people that don't know that they are Anishnabek, this is dedicated to them, in hope that one day, they and or their children will know who they are.

Anyhow, if anyone wishes to help me in this and has material to share, please let me know, otherwise, I would like to withdrawal from further discourse on the merits of standardization of languages. Even if this may be important to some...with Respect for all.

Joseph Brian Lavalley - Mishomis dezhnekaz, Nme dodem.

Miigwetch

PS. Kevin thanks for reminding me of my focus - JBL

---------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 09:49:29 -0400
From: brousseau_kevin at YAHOO.CA
Subject: Re: [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project
To: ILAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU

Dear Mishomis - or is it Joseph? 

I don't see why you would have though that I would have taken that as an attack. I agreed with nearly everything you said. 

My point though, which might not have been that clear, was not to create some new Anishinabe standard and ignore all the dialects...I clearly said that the study of all dialects is very important. All I was pointing out was that a standard orthography would be extremely useful in for all Anishinabe people - and I also mentioned that it was political because it is up to Anishinabe people to take it upon themselves to do that. But in order to do that, you need to take into consideration all the ANISHINABE peoples, and that is a political task in the sense that many Anishinabe peoples see themselves as distinct peoples because of the politics of the day and the fact that they prefer using their English names (many do not even know that they are in fact Anishinabe  because many do not speak they own language). This is why it is political and not in the sphere of linguistics. That is not to say that an Anishinabe linguist can get the ball rolling! It's just that it isnt a
 necessary step in order to do a linguistic study of the language. A standard orthography would only benefit the people themselves, in more ways than one. (imagine is Australians and Americans both wrote phonetically! They probably would argue that they speak different languages just by looking at each others writting systems!) 

Second, I never mentioned anything about unifying all Algic languages, in my opinion that would be impossible. 

Lastly, there are more peoples than what you call the 3 fires that consider themselves ANISHINABE...and use that name to identify themselves. And yes, they all speak dialects of the same language.

Joseph Lavalley <graphfix at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:     Dear K. Brousseau,

It is not my contention to become political (that is a different arena then mine and for the people to figure) or to impose a system that is acceptable to all Anishnabek. It is my contention to however to create the forum and a base for that to occur naturally, based on as many Anishnabek nations as possible. The Anishnabek consists of the Three Fires Confederacy (Ojibwe, Pottawatomi and Ottawa). From that there is a existing political structure so there is no need for unification of those political bodies and continued division of extant individual communities (Sovereign Nations) therein.

This project is about culture and understanding where one comes from. It is about keeping a language from not being spoken but to reach out the young that wish to retain their  lanuguage, be it in the communities where they live, rural or urban, to have a sense of identity more then just, 'I am a First Nations person or I am Indian or I am Aboriginal. I am not concerned with the political boundaries of Canada or United States or their state boundaries or provincial ones. This is about being able to say a thanksgiving in ones' own language, to smoke a pipe (Powagon) and to do ceremonies. This is about being able to educate our children in their language and if they wish to learn English as a trading language similar to the Chinook language in BC. It is about being able to have self-esteem in ones' culture and community, instead of being isolated and forgotten. It is about a voice - called: Anishnawbemowin. With this project each community can list their individual dialects
 and inflexions which makes them unique and distinctive then the other communities. From there dialogue will ensue and from that the basis for a unified Anishnabek language -  writting system. Created by the people, I am just getting it started. and it may take may years, decades or centuries, but as long as someone starts it, it will be fulfilled. It is for the people to decide, I am only a guide and think nothing more of it.

As far as, using English lables for identification of nationality, that is for the people to decide, or the individual, eventually the words will be translated back into the symbology, gylphs, logos and so forth and our written language will unite us as one people with different dialects and different ideas, thus, culture will be renewed. Being a linguist with an Anishnabe background will help in many ways, one, I will be able to distinguish between two or more separate nations dialects and inflexions, secondly, by understanding where they are coming from in terms of the assimulation of our people, trust can be built and information transmitted to me for dissemination to the masses online. Thirdly, with all  communities involved in this a sense of ownership of the language will bring forth new generations of natural aboriginal speakers and from there unity. Fourthly, by giving the people a road map to retain and enjoy their language, I am fulfilling my duties to the
 Anishnabek as Mishomis.

Throughout this project I am sure that there will people that will oppose what I am doing or try to keep or discourage me from doing this project by whatever means at their disposal. I am not under the illusion that I can do this project alone completely. I here to inspire those that are serious and dedicated to completing this project so that Anishnabemowin will continue to be spoken forever and that it is not lost in translation in Indo-European thinking and philosophy. That we as a people can think very much for ourselves and that our culture (old and new) will live on forever. With that not end up as just footnotes in some PDF in the future.

At this point, I am not  interested in unifying all the Algic family languages. I am interested in specific ones and in the future it is for someone else to unify the others. Be it Cree, Micmac, Blackfoot, Dene etc. If this project unifies people then that is a positive thing and I for one encourage that. If this project gives well-springs a renewed sense of culture and social well-being; or a reawakening of old knowledge and lead to new knowledge not seen or spoken of in thousands of year, I am in. For those that wish not to discover themselves and understand their language, this project is not for you. You may not be interested in this and perhaps your energies should concentrate in other field where one can be useful. I am not doing this for self-congratulations or to blow my own horn, this will first and foremost, for the Anishnabek, their children (benogii) for all our relations (Past, Present and the ones that have yet to be). Other then that the world can go to hell
 in a handbasket if the  politician do not like it. This is my position until forever comes up and bites my shiney metal hiney.

Now without the tools available from Linguistics this project may as well not exist. To be able to understand the oral, audio and the written of people that took the time to write the grammarian, the othographies, the dictionaries, the symbols of the modern alphabet from the genus of the Phoenician alphabet, to do a comprehensive translation before all real oral speaker references, is the job of the people who own that language namely those of the Anishnabek. Of which, I am one, and have the honour, privilege and duty to do this project, based on heredity, spiritual right and my the validity of my name and family's place in Anishnabek culture and society. And as such I have a vested interest in seeing this project to its end. OR, my end whichever comes first.

It is never too late to change, but only wrong not to begin.

With compassion, love and  understanding,

Joseph Brian Lavally - Mishomis dezhnikaz - Nme dodem (Grandfather is my name - Sturgeon family, hereditary teachers) 

PS. This is not a remonstration of your opinion, but a response, don't feel that this is a personal attack upon you this just clarifies my position and commitment to this project and nothing more. - JBL

---------------------------------
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:02:55 -0400
From: brousseau_kevin at YAHOO.CA
Subject: Re: [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project
To: ILAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU

One of the problems with a unified Anishnabe writting system is that the language crosses a few provincial boundaries and state boudaries. Researchers tend to focus on the language of one community or of a selected area...which is fine and important in itself but the the research is rarely done in the vision of a unified anishnabe language. 

Also, there isn t one anishnabe govt that represents all anishnabe people. The most important  thing in my opinion is starting a discussion  between all anishnabe communities in order to agree on a writing system, which does not necessarily have to be based on the roman alphabet or syllabics (which of course everyone has an opinion about and might cause more divisions in the process). 

This idea of a unified writting system is outside of the concern of linguists in my opinion - it is a political issue. Anishnabe people themselves need to take the initiative to form a united front (at least in terms of language first).  Identifying who is and speaks Anishnabe is the prerequisite to acually forming political ties in the future. 

A linguist would not insist, for example, that a group should call itself Anishnabe instead of their English labels (which of course are based on  native words), such as Ojibwe, Chippewa, saultaux, Algonquin, Oji-Cree, etc... A unified writting system to a unified language - to a unified people.

This is what  should be done before a major project begins and people say it is too late to change things, but this is just my opinion. 

Joseph Lavalley <graphfix at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:     Dear Mr. D. Osborn,

Glad you have some contacts in regards to dictionary project. Perhaps a exchange  of knowledge with them will provide me with a firmer ground to base this Ojbiwe Dictionary project on. So far it seems so. Look forward to speaking or having meaningful dialogue with someone who participated in it structure and creation.

With great thanks, Chi-Miigwetch

Joseph Brian Lavalley - Mishomis dezhenkaz, Nme dodem

---------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:18:08 -0400
From: dzo at BISHARAT.NET
Subject: Re: [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project
To: ILAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU

                  Dear Joseph,

  I can't speak to  the issues of the Ojibwe language, but on the broader topic of online "living" dictionaries will mention - in case it is of interest to you and others on ILAT - that there is some interesting work ongoing and being discussed for several African languages. 

  * The ""Kamusi" online  living Swahili dictionary has been evolving for several years and, though currently at a moment of transition, is poised to continue its development.
  * Other dictionaries being developed by Kasahorow for Akan (Ghana) and Ewe (Ghana/Togo)
  * A larger project proposal is under discssion to facilitate among other things, pairing of various African languages

  Most of the languages concerned in the current efforts and discussions have  millions of speakers and sometimes considerable, if difficult to access, published resources. So the context is somewhat different than what I understand one would be dealinng with for a Native American language like Ojibwe. Nevertheless, perhaps there could be some useful sharing of tools and experience.

  I'll cc Dr. Martin Benjamin (Kamusi) and Paa Kwesi Imbeah (kasahorow) for their info.

  All the best.

  Don Osborn
  Bisharat.net
  PanAfriL10n.org

        From: Indigenous Languages and Technology [mailto:ILAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] On Behalf Of Joseph Lavalley
 Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:20 PM
 To: ILAT at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
 Subject: [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project

  To all interested colleagues,

 Currently engaged in a online Ojibwe dictionary project and have been going it alone for the last year and a half. Seeking interested persons who are currently working on the Ojibwe language (Anishnawbemowin) and those who have dictionary building experience.

 So far using a 1975 reprint of a 1874 Ojibwe language dictionary listed as a  grammarian in a Bibliography of Algonquian Language as primary source to create this hand typed (keyboarded) digitized dictionary into a website. The dictionary is the one compiled by Wilson. The reprint was done by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada. The typeface is approx. 6pt Times. I am currently work in Arial 12pt in Word. Would like to do a cross comparison of other dictionaries extant from either English and French texts past and present to do a complete analysis and comprehensive  re-working of Orthography, Phonetic soundings using voice snippets from local oral speakers to establish universal Phonology and Morphology.

 To be honest and truthful to the fullest extent, I have no university standing at this time, although I am currently applying to university to become a Linguist. It is my hope that those that care about the educational responsibilities to the children and people of the Anishnawbe will come forth and help me in  the vision of a unified Ojibwe oral, written and symbolic system.

 With a dream to fulfill in ones' lifetime, there is much to be done,

 Miigwetch,

 Joseph Brian Lavalley - Mishomis dezhnikaz, Nme dodem.

 PS. Also, interested in making contact with John D. Nichols leading Algic Family Language Specialist.

 JBL

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