Response to Deb Roy's study

Fri Mar 18 16:51:53 UTC 2011

Hi all,
I am not a linguist and I do not know the literature about language acquisition, so my comment is based upon my own experience with trying to learn two different languages as an adult.  It also is based on my experience in having to teach my son in other ways due to his Asperger's Syndrome (potty training, comes to mind).

I am taking Neski's statement, which is his paraphrase of Deb Roy's point, which is while the parent is teaching the language to the child, the child is also teaching the parent how to teach the language.

Through trial and error, I have figured out the most effective ways of teaching my son, so he has taught me which methods work and which don't.

When I tried to speak the Iñupiaq to elders in my community (King Island Iñupiat) taught at UAF in the mid-90s, the elders several times would reply in English: "We don't say that. Those people up north (i.e., Barrow, which was the dialect we were being taught) say that." I was shut down and told that what I was taught through a formal education system was not right.

I contrast that with how we teach language to babies. There is constant positive encouragement and tremendous patience (i.e., six months go to from "gaga" to "water", taking into account the development of the baby's muscular development in his mouth).

As an adult, at least in my experience, I haven't received the constant positive encouragement nor patience. So, it seems to me that creating such a learning environment, with positive feedback loops, would be one key to language acquistion. I know it would help me!! : )
Deanna

On 3/17/11 2:46 PM, "Neskie Manuel" <neskiem at GMAIL.COM> wrote:

Weytk Everyone,

I disagree with parts of the comment that was highlighted.  I think
his line of inquiry was very useful and presented in a good way.
What Deb Roy appeared to be saying is there are feedback loops
involved in child-caregiver in language acquisition.

What I heard Deb Roy say is something like, my statement.

The parent is teaching the language to the child, and the child is
teaching the parent how to be a teacher of the language.

What are all the details behind this I don't know and I don't really
care.  I just want to know the important parts.  I think us as
Secwepemc people knew this and expressed it in the statement 'children
are the closest to the creator'.  As secwepemc people we had something
to learn from children.  This was our feedback loop we created.

Different pedagogies produce different feedback loops, some are better
at others, all require energy and work to keep them going.

When I hear the word feedback loop, I think of differential equations
and large scale dynamical and chaotic systems.  Here I want to perform
a thought experiment.   Let's say you could mathematically model
language acquisition with some set of differential equations and you
want language acquistiion to increase.  This set of differential
equations will behave something like weather, in that it will be
sensitive to initial conditions, and boundary values.

What this says to me is that we have to pay close attention to the
initial conditions we find ourselves in an what is going on in the
environment around language acquisition.

I like your two questions Susan.  I think a "mathematical" look might
be helpful.  I would like to respond to them now, but I have to run
off.

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Susan Penfield
<susan.penfield at gmail.com> wrote:
> A comment from Rex Sprouse ( in italics and posted elsewhere) is worth
> considering in this context.
>
>      Less than 5 minutes ago: Deb Roy appears to equate the acquisition of a
> word with the first (or with the consistent?) production of an adult-like
> pronunciation of the   word. However, words are much more complex mental
> objects, relating an abstract representation of sound, grammatical category
> (noun, verb, etc.), morpho-syntactic features, semantic features, pragmatic
> features, etc. No matter how sophisticated the technology used for recording
> the child's speech, data about production alone can tell us about only one
> (and I must say, for me, the least interesting) aspect of this cognitively
> complex process.
>
>        On a broader level, what I found disappointing about the talk is that
> it was difficult to identify anything like a clear research question behind
> the collection of massive     amounts of data. This is a very central and
> very divisive matter within current linguistics: Recent technology has made
> it easier to amass huge amounts of linguistic data. However, in the absent
> of theoretically motivated research questions, it is difficult for me to buy
> into the notion that this represents genuine progress.
>
> -My thoughts: What I find interesting, considering the ILAT audience, is how
> very little we still know about language acquisition (first and second)  in
> the context of revitalization.
>  I would like to know about any targeted research studies that would be
> aimed at better understanding the process.  We have teaching methods
> (immersion, Master-Apprentice) which we all know are working in some
> contexts -- but how, specifically?  And, what might we learn from more
> focused studies, that raise clear questions, which actually might improve or
> help us better understand what it takes to help people learn in
> non-traditional, less formal, contexts?
>
> Just trying to wrap my thoughts around all of this...
>
> S.-
> **********************************************************************************************
> Susan D. Penfield, Ph.D.
>
> Research Coordinator, Center for Educational Resources in Culture, Language
> and Literacy (CERCLL),
> Faculty affiliate in English,  Linguistics, Language, Reading and Culture
> Second Language Acquisition and Teaching Ph.D. Program (SLAT),
> American Indian Language Development Institute (AILDI)
> The Southwest Center
> University of Arizona,
> Tucson, Arizona 85721
>
>
>

--
Neskie Manuel
http://neskiemanuel.ath.cx
Tel: (250) 679-2821
SIP: mac at sip.ca2.link2voip.com
Skype: neskiemanuel
Twitter: @neskiem
Identi.ca: http://identi.ca/neskie

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