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<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>Hi, Annie. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>Nice to hear from you. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>I have a theory, based on an
observation by J. Peter Denny, in "Cultural Ecology of Mathematics: Ojibway and
Inuit Hunters", in Native American Mathematics, Michael P. Closs (Ed). He says,
"The dependence of the hunter on wild plants and animals leads to two crucial
features in his pattern of living. First of all, he only alters the environment
to a small degree and must for the most part adapt to its natural conditions. In
contrast to this, agricultural and industrial societiers alter the environment
to increasing degrees and strive hard to make the environment fit their needs.
The second featurs arises as a consequence of the first. Since the technology
needed for a small degree of alteration of the environment is itself restricted,
any adult knows the whole repertoire. Consequently, there need be no
specialization of occupation . . anyone can kill an animal, butcher it, and cook
it; anyone can cut wood and bark from trees, shape them into a canoe, and paddle
it." </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>If we think of this in terms of
questions asked and answered, we get a perspective that creates an equality
of Societies, at least analytically, rather than the hierarchical structure most
people either try to develop or ethnocentrically assume. In the
hunter-gatherer groups, primary questions Must be: How can I know/learn about
the world around me? How can I get what I need, without destroying what others'
need, because these "others" are what sustain me, and if I destroy them, I
too will be destroyed. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>In agricultural societies, the
primary questions become: How can I manage my resources to feed me and my
family? and, What are all these interesting, sometimes pleasant, sometimes
unpleasant, things that occur when all us humans live together in this close
space? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>In industrial societies, the
questions become: What is it that "I" want? and, How can I totally reconfigure
everything around me to conform to the answer to Question 1. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>People can come up with other
questions, but just looking at these comparative pairs gives you an idea of how
the semantics of the language have to be. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>Relative to your specific questions,
which seem to be to be an effort to relate an understanding of indigenous
understands to one of our two Societal types (either agricultural or
industrial), I don't think it is appropriate to try to relate in that manner.
Since we don't understand the domain of indigenous people In And Of ItSelf. . .
we are comparing apples and motorcars when we try to "explain" indigenous
understanding in terms of "some other" understanding. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>A parallel would be: Here is your
vocabulary: mitochondria, mitosis, amino acid, cell wall, well body, osmosis,
diffusion, electrolyte. Please explain a robotically controlled assembly line
using only these terms, plus the typical incidentals in English, where
"incidentals" are considered prepositions, indefinite articles, and serializing
adverbs such as "when", "then", "next". No additional concept terms may be
introduced. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>"Science" is rather specific,
regardless of culture. It is a way of knowing and learning by observing,
measuring, predicting, and reproducing. I think that having to understand how
Not to modify something is just as disciplined as having to understand how TO
modify it. The critical portions of this process are the prediction and
reproduction. For example, to make the statement, I think Darryl hates me, made
up out of whole cloth, is not predictive, and certainly not reproducible. On the
other hand, Feeding my plants makes them grow healthy and big, based on
experience and observation, is very "scientific" in the procedural definition of
science. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>I will end with a cultural joke,
intended to provoke thought as much as humor. . . </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>There's this little Jewish guy named
Moishe. He is very religious, reads the Torah, follows the hundreds of rules for
living, cleaning, preparing food, keeps the dietary restrictions. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>Every night, he prays, Oh G_d, please
let me win the lottery. My children are going to college, my synagogue needs
money to hire a Cantor, . . . . Every night he prays thus, and every night, G_d
listens. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>One night, after praying thus for so
many years, Moishe says to G_od, "Yahweh, Have I not been a good man? Have I not
followed your rules? Have I not loved you to all my limits?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>And G_d, tired of listening to the
prayers that come without a method for actualization, says to Moishe: "Moishe,
Moishe! Help me out here! Buy a ticket!"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2>Mia</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=anniegrace@SBCGLOBAL.NET href="mailto:anniegrace@SBCGLOBAL.NET">annie
ross</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
href="mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU">ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 07, 2004 10:35
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Indn Words for Science</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>hello</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>i too am interested in words, not as a linguist, but an a scholar of oral
histories, and as an artist and teacher interested in native philosophy and
place.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>i wonder, would the mainstream concept of 'science' be compartmentalized
outside of the panoply of information in native logic?
(would 'science' be a separate category/subject word?)
or...perhaps, would there be a suffix or prefix or modifier to a word that
would mean something like 'understanding' in an indigenous language ,
that would translate to what is meant by the western word "science"
? </DIV>
<DIV>what if the word mainstream culture uses, "shaman'" mean, in
part, "scientist'? aren't our medine men and women, in part, true
scientists? and what of other indigenous occupations - those that demand
study, observation, analysis, knowledge of factual information - are not those
'science', using an <EM>indigenous scientific method</EM> of personal
experience?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>annie ross<BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR><B><I>Mia - Main Red Pony <miakalish@REDPONY.US></I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Hi,
Andre,<BR><BR>This is a wonderful document for the Exploratoria that we will
be building<BR>if we get the big NSF grant we applied for.<BR><BR>I wasn't
asking for the words for use in teaching materials, though. I<BR>wanted them
for a generalized approach that says, It's time to stop looking<BR>at Indns
as simple, superstitious creatures, because white people screwed up<BR>to
begin with by biasing their learning about the people here because
of<BR>J.W. Powell.<BR><BR>I am taking a class in petroglyphs, and the ideas
that the people writing<BR>come up with are really, truly, offensive (at
least to me, but being a<BR>Cognitive Psychologist, I am probably more
sensitive to it than most<BR>people). On the one hand, we have David
Lewis-Williams with his theory that<BR>much of what has been created on
rocks is "shamanistic in nature", a theory<BR>he started to try to
"understand " the rock paintings of the San bushmen, and<BR>on the other Ron
Eckland, who has aptly and admirably demonstrated that<BR>African patterns
are based on fractal geometry. As you might well imagine,<BR>David
Lewis-Williams had only to make his theories up in his head, and<BR>search
through the literature finding people who had written things that<BR>agreed
with his ideas. Eckland, on the other hand, had actually to derive<BR>the
equations, and run them through the computer to demonstrate that
the<BR>equations appropriately represented the structures.<BR><BR>I think I
have mentioned this before: I use technology to develop
effective<BR>teaching materials, but unlike most people, I target my goals
at adults. The<BR>things I have developed so far work well for children, but
more<BR>significantly, they work well for adults, who people think can't
learn<BR>languages. Now I am expanding a little, to take the
simultaneous,<BR>multi-perceptual presentation form and apply it to more
difficu lt learning,<BR>like computer algorithms, for example. This is a
course most people fail; I<BR>think I can develop materials that teach
enough, painlessly, enjoyably, so<BR>most everyone does well. I say "most",
because you can't guarantee that<BR>everyone will do the class
work.<BR><BR>This was kind of an aside: my goal here is really simple. It is
to be able<BR>to say, Powell was a vicious idiot, and the rest of us are
living with the<BR>results of that perniciousness.<BR><BR>Kind of harsh,
huh? There was a lake named after him when they dammed the<BR>Colorado.
Harrington, unarguably one of the best linguists and ethnographers<BR>Ever,
left us a clue in a 1907 publication that Powell was forcing all<BR>analysis
of Native languages in the English structure and component<BR>framework. He
could do that, because he was the gatekeeper at
the<BR>Smithsonian.<BR><BR>So thanks, Andre. I was going to say, I guess
there are no words for<BR>scientific and mathematical concepts left in y our
language, either. However,<BR>I have one more perspective to share. The
"tools" that a non-destructive,<BR>hunter-gatherer society uses (and looks
for) are different from the tools a<BR>sedentary, ecologically destructive
agricultural society uses (and looks<BR>for) and both of these are extremely
much different from the tools of an<BR>industrial society. These different
"ways of surviving" also contain<BR>different sets of questions asked and
answered, cultural goals and<BR>expectations, and vocabularies in
general.<BR><BR>Hence my question: Did any Indn words survive the Powell
Purge?<BR><BR>Hope you are having a nice day. It is beautiful here in NM; a
wonderful<BR>winter storm went through leaving us much needed rain and snow.
I know you<BR>don't have that problem up there in exquisitely beautiful
northern<BR>California.<BR><BR>best,<BR>mia<BR>----- Original Message
-----<BR>From: "Andre Cramblit" <ANDREKAR@NCIDC.ORG><BR>To:
<ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU><BR>Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:04
PM<BR>Subject: Re: Indn Words for Science<BR><BR><BR>FYI
(attached)<BR><BR>Mia - Main Red Pony wrote:<BR><BR>>
Hello.<BR>><BR>> In the middle of these devastating assaults on Native
languages, laws<BR>> that say classes must be taught in English, No
[Rich] child left<BR>> behind. . . and so on, I have what I think is an
important question to<BR>> ask, especially for people working on
revitalization.<BR>><BR>> Do your languages have words for
science?<BR>><BR>> I have been looking through my dictionaries (Young
and Morgan's<BR>> Colloquial Navajo, Perry's Western Apache Dictionary,
Bray's version<BR>> of the Western Apache-English Dictionary, Toluwa and
Hupa]. I have a<BR>> small set of really basic words: add, subtract,
multiply, divide,<BR>> circle, square, triangle, measure, count, repeat,
rhythm, angle, line,<BR>> cloud, mountain, rain.<BR>><BR>> Most of
the languages have recorded words for circle, mountain , and<BR>> rain.
Many have words for cloud, although Toluwa, in the Pacific<BR>>
Northwest, and with words for fog, don't have one listed for
"cloud".<BR>><BR>> So, my really important question: Do Your Languages
have these words?<BR>> Some?<BR>><BR>> You don't have to send me
what they are, unless you would enjoy<BR>> engaging with them. But I
would like to know if they exist.<BR>><BR>> I am convinced that Powell
created a limited, and somewhat pernicious,<BR>> view of the people who
lived here originally with his prescriptive<BR>> Introduction to the
Study of Indian Languages: Words, phrases and<BR>> sentences to be
collected.<BR>><BR>> I am also convinced that without this narrow and
exclusive view, some,<BR>> of not all, of the language issues that we
have today, particularly<BR>> with regard to languages which may be used
in schools for teaching,<BR>> would not exist.<BR>><BR>> The
question arose because I am loo king at geometric patterns at Three<BR>>
Rivers Petroglyphs. The patterns show up in pottery designs in<BR>>
1100-1300 ad. I wondered if people had conceptualized these forms<BR>>
linguistically.<BR>><BR>> Thanks in advance for your
help.<BR>><BR>> Mia Kalish<BR>><BR>> PS: Thanks for that
information on grants, Andre. Wouldn't this be<BR>> just a Perfect
Project!<BR>><BR>> "Civilization advances by extending the number of
important operations<BR>> which we can perform without thinking about
them. Alfred North Whitehead<BR>><BR>> Mia Kalish, M.A.<BR>> PhD
Student, Computer Science<BR>> Tularosa, New Mexico USA
88352<BR>><BR><BR><BR>--<BR><BR><BR>André Cramblit:
andre.p.cramblit.86@alum.dartmouth.org is the Operations<BR>Director
Northern California Indian Development Council
NCIDC<BR>(http://www.ncidc.org) is a non-profit that meets the development
needs<BR>of American Indians<BR><BR>To subscribe to a news letter of
interest to Na tives send an email
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