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I have read descriptions of various indigenous languages which are spoken
by people who have little contact with the outside world. No matter if these
languages are spoken in Asia, Africa, Australia, or the Americas, those studying
them often comment on the wealth of vocabulary dealing with what we call
"biology." People who live close to the earth need to be able to describe
it in a way which urban people often don't. So, that's where I think you
would find many Indian words for science--in the realm of biology. <br>
<br>
Mia - Main Red Pony wrote:<br>
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<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">Hi, Annie. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">Nice to hear from you. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">I have a theory, based on
an observation by J. Peter Denny, in "Cultural Ecology of Mathematics: Ojibway
and Inuit Hunters", in Native American Mathematics, Michael P. Closs (Ed).
He says, "The dependence of the hunter on wild plants and animals leads
to two crucial features in his pattern of living. First of all, he only
alters the environment to a small degree and must for the most part adapt
to its natural conditions. In contrast to this, agricultural and industrial
societiers alter the environment to increasing degrees and strive hard to
make the environment fit their needs. The second featurs arises as a consequence
of the first. Since the technology needed for a small degree of alteration
of the environment is itself restricted, any adult knows the whole repertoire.
Consequently, there need be no specialization of occupation . . anyone can
kill an animal, butcher it, and cook it; anyone can cut wood and bark from
trees, shape them into a canoe, and paddle it." </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">If we think of this in terms
of questions asked and answered, we get a perspective that creates an equality
of Societies, at least analytically, rather than the hierarchical structure
most people either try to develop or ethnocentrically assume. In the hunter-gatherer
groups, primary questions Must be: How can I know/learn about the world
around me? How can I get what I need, without destroying what others' need,
because these "others" are what sustain me, and if I destroy them, I too
will be destroyed. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">In agricultural societies,
the primary questions become: How can I manage my resources to feed me and
my family? and, What are all these interesting, sometimes pleasant, sometimes
unpleasant, things that occur when all us humans live together in this close
space? </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">In industrial societies, the
questions become: What is it that "I" want? and, How can I totally reconfigure
everything around me to conform to the answer to Question 1. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">People can come up with other
questions, but just looking at these comparative pairs gives you an idea
of how the semantics of the language have to be. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">Relative to your specific
questions, which seem to be to be an effort to relate an understanding of
indigenous understands to one of our two Societal types (either agricultural
or industrial), I don't think it is appropriate to try to relate in that
manner. Since we don't understand the domain of indigenous people In And
Of ItSelf. . . we are comparing apples and motorcars when we try to "explain"
indigenous understanding in terms of "some other" understanding. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">A parallel would be: Here
is your vocabulary: mitochondria, mitosis, amino acid, cell wall, well body,
osmosis, diffusion, electrolyte. Please explain a robotically controlled
assembly line using only these terms, plus the typical incidentals in English,
where "incidentals" are considered prepositions, indefinite articles, and
serializing adverbs such as "when", "then", "next". No additional concept
terms may be introduced. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">"Science" is rather specific,
regardless of culture. It is a way of knowing and learning by observing,
measuring, predicting, and reproducing. I think that having to understand
how Not to modify something is just as disciplined as having to understand
how TO modify it. The critical portions of this process are the prediction
and reproduction. For example, to make the statement, I think Darryl hates
me, made up out of whole cloth, is not predictive, and certainly not reproducible.
On the other hand, Feeding my plants makes them grow healthy and big, based
on experience and observation, is very "scientific" in the procedural definition
of science. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">I will end with a cultural
joke, intended to provoke thought as much as humor. . . </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">There's this little Jewish
guy named Moishe. He is very religious, reads the Torah, follows the hundreds
of rules for living, cleaning, preparing food, keeps the dietary restrictions.
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">Every night, he prays, Oh
G_d, please let me win the lottery. My children are going to college, my
synagogue needs money to hire a Cantor, . . . . Every night he prays thus,
and every night, G_d listens. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">One night, after praying thus
for so many years, Moishe says to G_od, "Yahweh, Have I not been a good
man? Have I not followed your rules? Have I not loved you to all my limits?"</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">And G_d, tired of listening
to the prayers that come without a method for actualization, says to Moishe:
"Moishe, Moishe! Help me out here! Buy a ticket!"</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style" size="2">Mia</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228,228,228) none repeat scroll 0%; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="anniegrace@SBCGLOBAL.NET"
href="mailto:anniegrace@SBCGLOBAL.NET">annie ross</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU"
href="mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU">ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Sent:</b>
Sunday, March 07, 2004 10:35 AM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: Indn Words for Science</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>hello</div>
<div> </div>
<div>i too am interested in words, not as a linguist, but an a scholar
of oral histories, and as an artist and teacher interested in native philosophy
and place.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>i wonder, would the mainstream concept of 'science' be compartmentalized
outside of the panoply of information in native logic? (would 'science'
be a separate category/subject word?) or...perhaps, would there be a
suffix or prefix or modifier to a word that would mean something like
'understanding' in an indigenous language , that would translate to what
is meant by the western word "science" ? </div>
<div>what if the word mainstream culture uses, "shaman'" mean, in
part, "scientist'? aren't our medine men and women, in part, true scientists?
and what of other indigenous occupations - those that demand study, observation,
analysis, knowledge of factual information - are not those 'science',
using an <em>indigenous scientific method</em> of personal experience?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>annie ross<br>
</div>
<div><br>
<b><i>Mia - Main Red Pony <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:miakalish@REDPONY.US"><miakalish@REDPONY.US></a></i></b> wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="replbq"
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16,16,255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">Hi,
Andre,<br>
<br>
This is a wonderful document for the Exploratoria that we will be building<br>
if we get the big NSF grant we applied for.<br>
<br>
I wasn't asking for the words for use in teaching materials, though.
I<br>
wanted them for a generalized approach that says, It's time to stop
looking<br>
at Indns as simple, superstitious creatures, because white people screwed
up<br>
to begin with by biasing their learning about the people here because
of<br>
J.W. Powell.<br>
<br>
I am taking a class in petroglyphs, and the ideas that the people writing<br>
come up with are really, truly, offensive (at least to me, but being
a<br>
Cognitive Psychologist, I am probably more sensitive to it than most<br>
people). On the one hand, we have David Lewis-Williams with his theory
that<br>
much of what has been created on rocks is "shamanistic in nature", a
theory<br>
he started to try to "understand " the rock paintings of the San bushmen,
and<br>
on the other Ron Eckland, who has aptly and admirably demonstrated that<br>
African patterns are based on fractal geometry. As you might well imagine,<br>
David Lewis-Williams had only to make his theories up in his head, and<br>
search through the literature finding people who had written things
that<br>
agreed with his ideas. Eckland, on the other hand, had actually to derive<br>
the equations, and run them through the computer to demonstrate that
the<br>
equations appropriately represented the structures.<br>
<br>
I think I have mentioned this before: I use technology to develop
effective<br>
teaching materials, but unlike most people, I target my goals at adults.
The<br>
things I have developed so far work well for children, but more<br>
significantly, they work well for adults, who people think can't learn<br>
languages. Now I am expanding a little, to take the simultaneous,<br>
multi-perceptual presentation form and apply it to more difficu lt learning,<br>
like computer algorithms, for example. This is a course most people
fail; I<br>
think I can develop materials that teach enough, painlessly, enjoyably,
so<br>
most everyone does well. I say "most", because you can't guarantee that<br>
everyone will do the class work.<br>
<br>
This was kind of an aside: my goal here is really simple. It is to be
able<br>
to say, Powell was a vicious idiot, and the rest of us are living with
the<br>
results of that perniciousness.<br>
<br>
Kind of harsh, huh? There was a lake named after him when they dammed
the<br>
Colorado. Harrington, unarguably one of the best linguists and ethnographers<br>
Ever, left us a clue in a 1907 publication that Powell was forcing all<br>
analysis of Native languages in the English structure and component<br>
framework. He could do that, because he was the gatekeeper at the<br>
Smithsonian.<br>
<br>
So thanks, Andre. I was going to say, I guess there are no words for<br>
scientific and mathematical concepts left in y our language, either.
However,<br>
I have one more perspective to share. The "tools" that a non-destructive,<br>
hunter-gatherer society uses (and looks for) are different from the
tools a<br>
sedentary, ecologically destructive agricultural society uses (and looks<br>
for) and both of these are extremely much different from the tools of
an<br>
industrial society. These different "ways of surviving" also contain<br>
different sets of questions asked and answered, cultural goals and<br>
expectations, and vocabularies in general.<br>
<br>
Hence my question: Did any Indn words survive the Powell Purge?<br>
<br>
Hope you are having a nice day. It is beautiful here in NM; a wonderful<br>
winter storm went through leaving us much needed rain and snow. I know
you<br>
don't have that problem up there in exquisitely beautiful northern<br>
California.<br>
<br>
best,<br>
mia<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Andre Cramblit" <ANDREKAR @ncidc.org=""><br>
To: <ILAT @listserv.arizona.edu=""><br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 5:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: Indn Words for Science<br>
<br>
<br>
FYI (attached)<br>
<br>
Mia - Main Red Pony wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hello.<br>
><br>
> In the middle of these devastating assaults on Native languages,
laws<br>
> that say classes must be taught in English, No [Rich] child left<br>
> behind. . . and so on, I have what I think is an important question
to<br>
> ask, especially for people working on revitalization.<br>
><br>
> Do your languages have words for science?<br>
><br>
> I have been looking through my dictionaries (Young and Morgan's<br>
> Colloquial Navajo, Perry's Western Apache Dictionary, Bray's version<br>
> of the Western Apache-English Dictionary, Toluwa and Hupa]. I have
a<br>
> small set of really basic words: add, subtract, multiply, divide,<br>
> circle, square, triangle, measure, count, repeat, rhythm, angle,
line,<br>
> cloud, mountain, rain.<br>
><br>
> Most of the languages have recorded words for circle, mountain
, and<br>
> rain. Many have words for cloud, although Toluwa, in the Pacific<br>
> Northwest, and with words for fog, don't have one listed for
"cloud".<br>
><br>
> So, my really important question: Do Your Languages have these
words?<br>
> Some?<br>
><br>
> You don't have to send me what they are, unless you would enjoy<br>
> engaging with them. But I would like to know if they exist.<br>
><br>
> I am convinced that Powell created a limited, and somewhat pernicious,<br>
> view of the people who lived here originally with his prescriptive<br>
> Introduction to the Study of Indian Languages: Words, phrases and<br>
> sentences to be collected.<br>
><br>
> I am also convinced that without this narrow and exclusive view,
some,<br>
> of not all, of the language issues that we have today, particularly<br>
> with regard to languages which may be used in schools for teaching,<br>
> would not exist.<br>
><br>
> The question arose because I am loo king at geometric patterns
at Three<br>
> Rivers Petroglyphs. The patterns show up in pottery designs in<br>
> 1100-1300 ad. I wondered if people had conceptualized these forms<br>
> linguistically.<br>
><br>
> Thanks in advance for your help.<br>
><br>
> Mia Kalish<br>
><br>
> PS: Thanks for that information on grants, Andre. Wouldn't this
be<br>
> just a Perfect Project!<br>
><br>
> "Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations<br>
> which we can perform without thinking about them. Alfred North
Whitehead<br>
><br>
> Mia Kalish, M.A.<br>
> PhD Student, Computer Science<br>
> Tularosa, New Mexico USA 88352<br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
<br>
André Cramblit: andre.p.cramblit.86@alum.dartmouth.org is the Operations<br>
Director Northern California Indian Development Council NCIDC<br>
(http://www.ncidc.org) is a non-profit that meets the development needs<br>
of American Indians<br>
<br>
To subscribe to a news letter of interest to Na tives send an email
to:<br>
IndigenousNewsNetwork-subscribe@topica.com or go to:<br>
http://www.topica.com/lists/IndigenousNewsNetwork/subscribe/?location=listin<br>
fo</ILAT></ANDREKAR></blockquote>
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