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<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'>I fully agree, and my experience is now going toward the half-century mark. The government of Peru made a major push to just such 'standardization' and it has led to failure after failure of bilingual education — a very long story I won't try to repeat here. Some communities are standing up to the government. They sill have to use the lingo of 'standardization' but they are insisting in the materials being actually readable by native speakers -- 'standardized' materials tend to be accessible only to the westerners (including, e.g., the Ministry of Education in Peru), who cooked them up. <BR>
<BR>
July 6, 2007 was a turning point for Tupe, for the whole town joined with the teachers and the authorities local and national to make a profound decision in favor of the preservation of the Jaqaru language. I was not present, but the event was videotaped and tape recorded and photographed. My personal appreciations of this important event together with the official document can be seen in Spanish at: <a href="http://www.latam.ufl.edu/hardman/jaqaru/julio6.html">http://www.latam.ufl.edu/hardman/jaqaru/julio6.html</a><BR>
And in English at: <a href="http://www.latam.ufl.edu/hardman/jaqaru/july6.html.">http://www.latam.ufl.edu/hardman/jaqaru/july6.html.</a><BR>
<BR>
In the recording of the event (on a DVD) the Min Ed argued that by having a unified alphabet for all of the language sof the Andes or of Peru (depending on who was speaking) would make the languages mutually accessible, understandable. And the linguist behind all this actually got his Ph.D. in linguistics in the US. One young woman, not a linguist, had been deluded by all this and spent a lot of energy on preparing materials utterly unusable by her community — rounding rejected even by the children trying to learn to read Jaqaru. People in Min Ed, etc, praised her greatly.<BR>
<BR>
[ Un artículo sobre Jaqaru también está en internet:<BR>
<a href="http://www.laprimeraperu.com/edicionNota.php?IDnoticia=2000&EN=868">http://www.laprimeraperu.com/edicionNota.php?IDnoticia=2000&EN=868</a> <a href="http://www.laprimeraperu.com/edicionNota.php?IDnoticia=2000&EN=868"><http://www.laprimeraperu.com/edicionNota.php?IDnoticia=2000&EN=868></a> ]<BR>
<BR>
All of this is now in great danger because of the Earthquake.<BR>
<BR>
But, yes, Mia, you are right.<BR>
<BR>
MJ<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 9/15/07 4:01 PM, "Mia Kalish" <MiaKalish@LEARNINGFORPEOPLE.US> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR="#000080"><FONT FACE="Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Hi, People, <BR>
<BR>
I missed most of this discussion. (Maybe that was a good thing - </SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><FONT FACE="Wingdings">J</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial">; It’s Saturday, I have a smidgen of humor to share). <BR>
<BR>
I would like to add something from a practitioner’s point of view (Everyone knows I build learning materials to retain and revitalize language and culture). <BR>
<BR>
Here it is: <BR>
Using the Westernized “unification”/simplest explanation/Universal (read “grammar” </FONT><FONT FACE="Wingdings">à</FONT><FONT FACE="Arial"> read Chomsky) etc, etc, etc SLOWS DOWN the actual use of language in communities. <BR>
It is my experience, which is reaching the 10 year mark at this point, that looking for “The Right Word” or, “The Right Way to Say It” not only misrepresents the essential nature of language, which frequently provides many ways to reflect the sophisticated and sometimes moving perspectives of living people, but also results both in endless meetings and endless arguments. <BR>
<BR>
So, GO FOR IT. 37 dictionaries/syllabaries/collections of recordings is infinitely better than 0 dictionaries/syllabaries/collections of recordings. <BR>
And if people Criticize: GOODY, at least they are Talking. Make them criticize in the language you are working with. This is a whole new dimension of experience. <BR>
<BR>
Mia Kalish<BR>
Director, Distance Ed<BR>
Diné College<BR>
Navajo Nation<BR>
<BR>
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<FONT FACE="Tahoma"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>From:</B> Indigenous Languages and Technology [<a href="mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]">mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]</a> <B>On Behalf Of </B>Joseph Lavalley<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Saturday, September 15, 2007 1:29 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE="4"><FONT FACE="Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:16.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE="Tahoma"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Dear K. Brousseau,<BR>
<BR>
It is not my contention to become political (that is a different arena then mine and for the people to figure) or to impose a system that is acceptable to all Anishnabek. It is my contention to however to create the forum and a base for that to occur naturally, based on as many Anishnabek nations as possible. The Anishnabek consists of the Three Fires Confederacy (Ojibwe, Pottawatomi and Ottawa). From that there is a existing political structure so there is no need for unification of those political bodies and continued division of extant individual communities (Sovereign Nations) therein.<BR>
<BR>
This project is about culture and understanding where one comes from. It is about keeping a language from not being spoken but to reach out the young that wish to retain their lanuguage, be it in the communities where they live, rural or urban, to have a sense of identity more then just, 'I am a First Nations person or I am Indian or I am Aboriginal. I am not concerned with the political boundaries of Canada or United States or their state boundaries or provincial ones. This is about being able to say a thanksgiving in ones' own language, to smoke a pipe (Powagon) and to do ceremonies. This is about being able to educate our children in their language and if they wish to learn English as a trading language similar to the Chinook language in BC. It is about being able to have self-esteem in ones' culture and community, instead of being isolated and forgotten. It is about a voice - called: Anishnawbemowin. With this project each community can list their individual dialects and inflexions which makes them unique and distinctive then the other communities. From there dialogue will ensue and from that the basis for a unified Anishnabek language - writting system. Created by the people, I am just getting it started. and it may take may years, decades or centuries, but as long as someone starts it, it will be fulfilled. It is for the people to decide, I am only a guide and think nothing more of it.<BR>
<BR>
As far as, using English lables for identification of nationality, that is for the people to decide, or the individual, eventually the words will be translated back into the symbology, gylphs, logos and so forth and our written language will unite us as one people with different dialects and different ideas, thus, culture will be renewed. Being a linguist with an Anishnabe background will help in many ways, one, I will be able to distinguish between two or more separate nations dialects and inflexions, secondly, by understanding where they are coming from in terms of the assimulation of our people, trust can be built and information transmitted to me for dissemination to the masses online. Thirdly, with all communities involved in this a sense of ownership of the language will bring forth new generations of natural aboriginal speakers and from there unity. Fourthly, by giving the people a road map to retain and enjoy their language, I am fulfilling my duties to the Anishnabek as Mishomis.<BR>
<BR>
Throughout this project I am sure that there will people that will oppose what I am doing or try to keep or discourage me from doing this project by whatever means at their disposal. I am not under the illusion that I can do this project alone completely. I here to inspire those that are serious and dedicated to completing this project so that Anishnabemowin will continue to be spoken forever and that it is not lost in translation in Indo-European thinking and philosophy. That we as a people can think very much for ourselves and that our culture (old and new) will live on forever. With that not end up as just footnotes in some PDF in the future.<BR>
<BR>
At this point, I am not interested in unifying all the Algic family languages. I am interested in specific ones and in the future it is for someone else to unify the others. Be it Cree, Micmac, Blackfoot, Dene etc. If this project unifies people then that is a positive thing and I for one encourage that. If this project gives well-springs a renewed sense of culture and social well-being; or a reawakening of old knowledge and lead to new knowledge not seen or spoken of in thousands of year, I am in. For those that wish not to discover themselves and understand their language, this project is not for you. You may not be interested in this and perhaps your energies should concentrate in other field where one can be useful. I am not doing this for self-congratulations or to blow my own horn, this will first and foremost, for the Anishnabek, their children (benogii) for all our relations (Past, Present and the ones that have yet to be). Other then that the world can go to hell in a handbasket if the politician do not like it. This is my position until forever comes up and bites my shiney metal hiney.<BR>
<BR>
Now without the tools available from Linguistics this project may as well not exist. To be able to understand the oral, audio and the written of people that took the time to write the grammarian, the othographies, the dictionaries, the symbols of the modern alphabet from the genus of the Phoenician alphabet, to do a comprehensive translation before all real oral speaker references, is the job of the people who own that language namely those of the Anishnabek. Of which, I am one, and have the honour, privilege and duty to do this project, based on heredity, spiritual right and my the validity of my name and family's place in Anishnabek culture and society. And as such I have a vested interest in seeing this project to its end. OR, my end whichever comes first.<BR>
<BR>
It is never too late to change, but only wrong not to begin.<BR>
<BR>
With compassion, love and understanding,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph Brian Lavally - Mishomis dezhnikaz - Nme dodem (Grandfather is my name - Sturgeon family, hereditary teachers) <BR>
<BR>
PS. This is not a remonstration of your opinion, but a response, don't feel that this is a personal attack upon you this just clarifies my position and commitment to this project and nothing more. - JBL
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</SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE="Tahoma"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 10:02:55 -0400<BR>
From: brousseau_kevin@YAHOO.CA<BR>
Subject: Re: [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project<BR>
To: ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<BR>
<BR>
One of the problems with a unified Anishnabe writting system is that the language crosses a few provincial boundaries and state boudaries. Researchers tend to focus on the language of one community or of a selected area...which is fine and important in itself but the the research is rarely done in the vision of a unified anishnabe language. <BR>
<BR>
Also, there isn t one anishnabe govt that represents all anishnabe people. The most important thing in my opinion is starting a discussion between all anishnabe communities in order to agree on a writing system, which does not necessarily have to be based on the roman alphabet or syllabics (which of course everyone has an opinion about and might cause more divisions in the process). <BR>
<BR>
This idea of a unified writting system is outside of the concern of linguists in my opinion - it is a political issue. Anishnabe people themselves need to take the initiative to form a united front (at least in terms of language first). Identifying who is and speaks Anishnabe is the prerequisite to acually forming political ties in the future. <BR>
<BR>
A linguist would not insist, for example, that a group should call itself Anishnabe instead of their English labels (which of course are based on native words), such as Ojibwe, Chippewa, saultaux, Algonquin, Oji-Cree, etc... A unified writting system to a unified language - to a unified people.<BR>
<BR>
This is what should be done before a major project begins and people say it is too late to change things, but this is just my opinion. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<B><I>Joseph Lavalley <graphfix@HOTMAIL.COM></I></B> wrote:<BR>
Dear Mr. D. Osborn,<BR>
<BR>
Glad you have some contacts in regards to dictionary project. Perhaps a exchange of knowledge with them will provide me with a firmer ground to base this Ojbiwe Dictionary project on. So far it seems so. Look forward to speaking or having meaningful dialogue with someone who participated in it structure and creation.<BR>
<BR>
With great thanks, Chi-Miigwetch<BR>
<BR>
Joseph Brian Lavalley - Mishomis dezhenkaz, Nme dodem
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</SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE="Tahoma"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:18:08 -0400<BR>
From: dzo@BISHARAT.NET<BR>
Subject: Re: [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project<BR>
To: ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:14.0px'><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">Dear Joseph,<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D"> <BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">I can't speak to the issues of the Ojibwe language, but on the broader topic of online "living" dictionaries will mention - in case it is of interest to you and others on ILAT - that there is some interesting work ongoing and being discussed for several African languages. <BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D"> <BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">* The ""Kamusi" online living Swahili dictionary has been evolving for several years and, though currently at a moment of transition, is poised to continue its development.<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">* Other dictionaries being developed by Kasahorow for Akan (Ghana) and Ewe (Ghana/Togo)<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">* A larger project proposal is under discssion to facilitate among other things, pairing of various African languages<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D"> <BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">Most of the languages concerned in the current efforts and discussions have millions of speakers and sometimes considerable, if difficult to access, published resources. So the context is somewhat different than what I understand one would be dealinng with for a Native American language like Ojibwe. Nevertheless, perhaps there could be some useful sharing of tools and experience.<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D"> <BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">I'll cc Dr. Martin Benjamin (Kamusi) and Paa Kwesi Imbeah (kasahorow) for their info.<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D"> <BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">All the best.<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D"> <BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">Don Osborn<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">Bisharat.net<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D">PanAfriL10n.org<BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D"> <BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D"> <BR>
</FONT><BR>
<FONT COLOR="#1F497D"> <BR>
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</SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE="Tahoma"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'><B>From:</B> Indigenous Languages and Technology [<a href="mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]">mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU]</a> <B>On Behalf Of </B>Joseph Lavalley<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:20 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project<BR>
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</SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE="Tahoma"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:13.0px'>To all interested colleagues,<BR>
<BR>
Currently engaged in a online Ojibwe dictionary project and have been going it alone for the last year and a half. Seeking interested persons who are currently working on the Ojibwe language (Anishnawbemowin) and those who have dictionary building experience.<BR>
<BR>
So far using a 1975 reprint of a 1874 Ojibwe language dictionary listed as a grammarian in a Bibliography of Algonquian Language as primary source to create this hand typed (keyboarded) digitized dictionary into a website. The dictionary is the one compiled by Wilson. The reprint was done by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada. The typeface is approx. 6pt Times. I am currently work in Arial 12pt in Word. Would like to do a cross comparison of other dictionaries extant from either English and French texts past and present to do a complete analysis and comprehensive re-working of Orthography, Phonetic soundings using voice snippets from local oral speakers to establish universal Phonology and Morphology.<BR>
<BR>
To be honest and truthful to the fullest extent, I have no university standing at this time, although I am currently applying to university to become a Linguist. It is my hope that those that care about the educational responsibilities to the children and people of the Anishnawbe will come forth and help me in the vision of a unified Ojibwe oral, written and symbolic system.<BR>
<BR>
With a dream to fulfill in ones' lifetime, there is much to be done,<BR>
<BR>
Miigwetch,<BR>
<BR>
Joseph Brian Lavalley - Mishomis dezhnikaz, Nme dodem.<BR>
<BR>
PS. Also, interested in making contact with John D. Nichols leading Algic Family Language Specialist.<BR>
<BR>
JBL</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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