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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hello all, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I was working on a reply to Kevin's message this morning and now
that I'm coming back to it note other replies from Mia, Joseph, MJ, and Haley.
I will finish what I started and insert other comments. I will say up front
though that I am *really* surprised at the suggestion that standardization is
an impediment to language use (if I am understanding Mia and MJ correctly).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>As a disclaimer, I'm writing as a non-linguist with more of a
background on Africa - nevertheless there are some interesting parallels and
some questions in common.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The way Kevin describes the situation of Ojibwe crossing boundaries
is *exactly* what is faced for so many languages in Africa. The borders are not
at issue, but how to harmonize if not to unify orthographies has been a subject
of ongoing discussion for some years, with some significant steps taken. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There are a lot of benefits to having a single system or
compatible systems of writing a language werever it is spoken, beginning with
being able to share and adapt anything written or printed, and including these
days developing web content for use by a larger readership. Maybe a key
difference here is the needs of language revitalization in the case of Ojibwe
vs. providing an active and geographically spread speaker community of a language
with a common system for writing. Nevertheless, somethng like an online
dictionary (esp. if a "living" dictionary approach that would allow
input from diverse people) for any language in any condition would benefit from
a unified orthography.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I think Kevin is correct that standardization is a political process
in that some entities with some authority need to arrive at some common decisions,
but I'm not sure I'd agree that lack of a single government for all the
speakers of a languageis a deal-stopper. It might be that some sort of cross-border
(non-governmental) organization could play a role in coordinating discussion of
standardization (but I know of no precedent elsewhere though.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>On the topic of linguists' role or not in issues related
to standardization: In the case of Africa (at least the areas I'm most familiar
with - West), linguists have been part of the process. It's hard to see how
much could have been achieved without them. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>That said, the process has not been perfect. There was a
suggestion for instance that some of the prescriptions concerning standardized
orthographies have needlessly diverged from established practice. There is a risk
that specialists will overthink the rules of orthography to the point of
repeated refinements that defeat the purpose of having a standard that people
can learn, get used to and use (in Mali for instance there have been some
changes of orthography of Bambara over the years; is this the kind of thing MJ refers
to in Peru?). But this is not the same as saying that standardization itself is
a problem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>(I'm coming at this from another field (internatinal
development) so I may be both off on all this and bringing up issues tangential
to the purpose of the list, but while on the topic of linguists and areas they
do or don't have roles in, I'd liketo suggest that in my field I note what I
think is an unfortunate lack of applied linuists and sociolinguists.
International development a quarter century ago began to bring social scientists
more into discussion of programs and projects, to complement technical experts
and economists with their perspectives. Linguists never were invited nor did
they seek to crash the party - the result, I argue, has been neglect of
language dimensions of development interventions in multilingual contexts, with
implications for who participates, whose knowledge counts, etc. That's a
different area of concern in a different region, but I bring it up to suggest
that maybe linguists, or some linguists, should be involved in discussions of unified
writing systems for languages like Ojibwe.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I apologize if I'm overstepping my bounds here, but hope some of
this is of interest and look forward to reading more.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Don<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Don Osborn<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bisharat.net<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>PanAfriL10n.org<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Indigenous
Languages and Technology [mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin
Brousseau<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>One of the problems with a unified Anishnabe writting system
is that the language crosses a few provincial boundaries and state boudaries.
Researchers tend to focus on the language of one community or of a selected
area...which is fine and important in itself but the the research is rarely
done in the vision of a unified anishnabe language. <br>
<br>
Also, there isn t one anishnabe govt that represents all anishnabe people. The
most important thing in my opinion is starting a discussion between all
anishnabe communities in order to agree on a writing system, which does not
necessarily have to be based on the roman alphabet or syllabics (which of
course everyone has an opinion about and might cause more divisions in the
process). <br>
<br>
This idea of a unified writting system is outside of the concern of linguists
in my opinion - it is a political issue. Anishnabe people themselves need to
take the initiative to form a united front (at least in terms of language
first). Identifying who is and speaks Anishnabe is the prerequisite to acually
forming political ties in the future. <br>
<br>
A linguist would not insist, for example, that a group should call itself
Anishnabe instead of their English labels (which of course are based on
native words), such as Ojibwe, Chippewa, saultaux, Algonquin, Oji-Cree, etc...
A unified writting system to a unified language - to a unified people.<br>
<br>
This is what should be done before a major project begins and people say it is
too late to change things, but this is just my opinion. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<b><i>Joseph Lavalley <graphfix@HOTMAIL.COM></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Dear Mr. D. Osborn,<br>
<br>
Glad you have some contacts in regards to dictionary project. Perhaps a
exchange of knowledge with them will provide me with a firmer ground to base
this Ojbiwe Dictionary project on. So far it seems so. Look forward to speaking
or having meaningful dialogue with someone who participated in it structure and
creation.<br>
<br>
With great thanks, Chi-Miigwetch<br>
<br>
Joseph Brian Lavalley - Mishomis dezhenkaz, Nme dodem<o:p></o:p></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:18:08
-0400<br>
From: dzo@BISHARAT.NET<br>
Subject: Re: [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project<br>
To: ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Dear Joseph,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I can't speak to the issues of the Ojibwe language, but on the
broader topic of online "living" dictionaries will mention - in case
it is of interest to you and others on ILAT - that there is some interesting
work ongoing and being discussed for several African languages. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>* The ""Kamusi" online living Swahili dictionary
has been evolving for several years and, though currently at a moment of
transition, is poised to continue its development.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>* Other dictionaries being developed by Kasahorow for Akan
(Ghana) and Ewe (Ghana/Togo)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>* A larger project proposal is under discssion to facilitate
among other things, pairing of various African languages</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Most of the languages concerned in the current efforts and
discussions have millions of speakers and sometimes considerable, if difficult
to access, published resources. So the context is somewhat different than what
I understand one would be dealinng with for a Native American language like
Ojibwe. Nevertheless, perhaps there could be some useful sharing of tools and
experience.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I'll cc Dr. Martin Benjamin (Kamusi) and Paa Kwesi Imbeah
(kasahorow) for their info.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>All the best.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Don Osborn</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bisharat.net</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>PanAfriL10n.org</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Indigenous
Languages and Technology [mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Joseph
Lavalley<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 13, 2007 11:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [ILAT] Ojibwe Dictionary Online Project</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>To
all interested colleagues,<br>
<br>
Currently engaged in a online Ojibwe dictionary project and have been going it
alone for the last year and a half. Seeking interested persons who are
currently working on the Ojibwe language (Anishnawbemowin) and those who have
dictionary building experience.<br>
<br>
So far using a 1975 reprint of a 1874 Ojibwe language dictionary listed as a
grammarian in a Bibliography of Algonquian Language as primary source to create
this hand typed (keyboarded) digitized dictionary into a website. The
dictionary is the one compiled by Wilson. The reprint was done by the
Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development Canada. The typeface is
approx. 6pt Times. I am currently work in Arial 12pt in Word. Would like to do
a cross comparison of other dictionaries extant from either English and French
texts past and present to do a complete analysis and comprehensive re-working
of Orthography, Phonetic soundings using voice snippets from local oral
speakers to establish universal Phonology and Morphology.<br>
<br>
To be honest and truthful to the fullest extent, I have no university standing
at this time, although I am currently applying to university to become a
Linguist. It is my hope that those that care about the educational
responsibilities to the children and people of the Anishnawbe will come forth
and help me in the vision of a unified Ojibwe oral, written and symbolic
system.<br>
<br>
With a dream to fulfill in ones' lifetime, there is much to be done,<br>
<br>
Miigwetch,<br>
<br>
Joseph Brian Lavalley - Mishomis dezhnikaz, Nme dodem.<br>
<br>
PS. Also, interested in making contact with John D. Nichols leading Algic
Family Language Specialist.<br>
<br>
JBL</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
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