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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Thank you, Keola, It is always such a pleasure to hear from
you. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>What a beautifully written email. I always think language learning
should occur with, about, around, for and with People. After all, language
doesn’t talk to itself. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Best wishes, and thanks again, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Mia <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Indigenous
Languages and Technology [mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Keola Donaghy<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, December 13, 2007
11:29 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [ILAT] Rosetta Stone</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Aloha e Mia, and mahalo to all who have contributed thoughts on this
topic. We had been approached by the Rosetta Stone folks to develop a Hawaiian
version of RS, and nearly every concern I had about doing it has been echoed by
someone in this thread. The commitment required in terms of not only dollars
but the hours of our most valuable staff is difficult to justify. The inability
to make significant changes to the structure of the lessons would make the
product of dubious value in many of our programs. We're still looking at it and
talking with other organizations that may be interested in collaborating on
this, however, I would not characterize it as a high priority project at the
moment.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Regarding the use of technology overall in language instruction, it has
been invaluable to us, but as been pointed out previously, it has worked
because our needs are driving out technology use, not the technology driving
our approach to language instruction, documentation and perpetuation. When we
find a need that technology can help address we will find the appropriate
technology and adopt it to our needs. Also important is our ability to do the
work ourselves and not depend heavily on outside contractors and consultants to
do the work for us.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>In the online Hawaiian classes we have taught, we have made it clear to
our students that online learning is not the most effective way to teach the
language, but for most of the students, it is either online learning or
nothing. They live in areas where they do not people that they can learn the
language from, or their work and personal commitments preclude their enrolling
in formal classes. We do what we can to provide them the opportunity, and it certainly
requires more of a commitment from then than simply buying a CD and hoping that
it actually gets used. I've spoken to many students who have taken our online
classes who related to me that they would never have gotten through the class
if there had not been a real human being online to provide not only instruction
but encouragement and even solace in difficult times. The online environment
was not just a technology solution, but a community of language learners whose
bonds to us and each other strengthen through their shared experience. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I was saddened by the story of your colleague. I myself have been slow
to adopt to mobile technology, however, have been warming up to its value only
in life and death situations such as the one that you have shared, but in our
work to keep the Hawaiian language moving forward. In some cases it may be for
language instruction or documentation, and others simply a way of allowing us
to do our work more effectively.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Keola<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style='min-height: 17px'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Lucida Grande"><span style='font-size:
10.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Courier><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Courier'>========================================================================</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Courier><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Courier'>Keola Donaghy
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Courier><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Courier'>Assistant Professor of Hawaiian Studies </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Courier><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Courier'>Ka Haka 'Ula O Ke'elikolani
<a href="mailto:keola@leoki.uhh.hawaii.edu">keola@leoki.uhh.hawaii.edu</a> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Courier><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Courier'>University of Hawai'i at Hilo
<a href="http://www2.hawaii.edu/~donaghy/">http://www2.hawaii.edu/~donaghy/</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style='min-height: 17px'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Lucida Grande"><span style='font-size:
10.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Courier><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Courier'>"Tír gan teanga, tír gan
anam." (Irish Gaelic saying)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Courier><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Courier'>A country without its language is a country without its
soul.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Courier><span style='font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Courier'>========================================================================</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On 12 Kek. 2007, at 3:21 PM, Mia Kalish wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I have a story to share. But first, let me build a little context. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>For as long as I have been doing this, there has been lots of to-ing
and fro-ing about technology, and in our case, language revitalization. And
there has been also some to-ing and fro-ing on revitalization pedagogies. And
of course, dollars, where they come from, who gets them, how they are used.
Arguments rage on; in some cases, very little happens as they rage. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Now that everyone has the context, let me tell you what happened,
and of course, how I saw it . . . </span></font><font size=2 color=navy
face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> maybe it will bring some ideas into focus. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>On Monday, one of our professors went to the neighboring town, 25.5
miles away, to give the final exam for his class. It was a dark and
snowy-rainy-wintry night. He gave his final, and 2 people saw him leave for
home. On Tuesday, he hadn’t made it, and people were worried; they were
spreading the word, looking for him. Last year, one of his friends, also a
friend of mine, was helping him with a car incident. I said, Why don’t you call
him? My friend said, He doesn’t have a cell. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>So into the dark and stormy night – and I can tell you it was truly
miserable: rain, sleet; snow; and, unrelenting cold – this man drove. There is
a turn several – but not many – miles out of town, where one either goes up the
mountain to Tsaile, and the warmth of the home fire – kuhg± – or follows the
south rim of Canyon de Chelly. The two terrains are vastly different, one
leading up the mountain, on paved road, with a few lights and homes, the other
leading down, past the Inn, into the canyon. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>His car was found almost 8 miles along the rim highway, at the
place where the paved road turns to dirt. His body was found a short ways from
his car. The police think he died of exposure. This man had made a personal
decision, not to have a cell phone. Can we challenge his right to make a
personal decision not to adopt a technology that could have saved his life?
I wonder if he would make a different decision today than he had a week
ago, and the year before that, and the decade before that. Would his family
encourage him to make a different decision today? <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Part of the problem with the passage of life is that sometimes, you
can’t go back and do it over. Sometimes, it seems to me, the risks of being
wrong outweigh individual feelings and perspectives. It seems to me. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I chose Rosalyn’s email, of all the possible choices, to share this
little story over, because I absolutely agree with her premise. I think that
the bulk of the money Should go into the community, to develop people who can
make more materials For the Community. In Ndn communities, “workforce
development,” even in the world of burgeoning technology, still means
pipefitters and dental hygienists. Do we need people with these skills?
Absolutely. Should “workforce development” be limited to this options?
Absolutely not. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Developing technology takes time, skill, and money in dynamic
relationship. But if Tribes hire outside companies, no matter who they are, and
abrogate their right and their responsibility to participate in their own
advancement, or in this case, cultural and linguistic revitalization, where
will they be when the money is gone and they need more materials? How will they
pass the skills along? What about the pedagogical issues that Phil and Andre
and others have brought up? Technology is not “easy” . . . but then, the
people who lived here before Columbus arrived mastered pretty amazing
technology (Petroglyph Calendars, mounds square to fractions of a degree;
nautical navigation; sophisticated animal husbandry and plant genetics; sun
daggers; and, my personal favorite, Chaco Canyon) so there isn’t any reason why
their descendants can’t master a little simple computer technology. After all,
graphics, sounds, language, and sophisticated knowledge representations are all
in the blood. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>So I would like to end with Kaddish for my colleague, an ancient
prayer. It will not save him, but merely send good wishes for his path. Would
technology have saved him? I don’t know. But the “Maybe it would have” haunts
me, because here, we are sharing the tears of loss, of a pain too unexplained
for words. When we lost Emmanuel, we lost his language, and the complex web of
knowledge that made his language – his ideolect – his own. Is it really so
different from what we fight for every day? <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Mia <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Indigenous Languages and Technology [<a
href="mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU">mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU</a>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><a
href="mailto:Rrlapier@AOL.COM">Rrlapier@AOL.COM</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, December 12, 2007
2:30 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [ILAT] Rosetta Stone</span></font><u1:p></u1:p><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><u1:p> </u1:p><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>I have read ANA language grants for several years. In the last
couple of years I have noticed more and more efforts to document language using
technologies from outside of the community. Oftentimes the community does not
articulate how they will incorporate these technologies into their whole
language revitalization strategy or how it will build their community capcity.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Rosetta Stone is one of those companies. In most cases the
community knew very very little about the company (they would attach a brochure
to their application) and so their grant would basically be asking for 90% to
cover the cost of RS and 10% for at home. The question I always asked to the
applicant is to show how this is "community capacity building"
-- if all the dollars leave the community?<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>I think tribes need to be proactive and require companies
like RS to put most of the dollars back into the community, by training
technicians, language specialists, etc. Tribes need to make this relationship a
partnership.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Rosalyn LaPier<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>Piegan Institute<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'> <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>In a message dated 12/12/2007 12:14:46 P.M. Mountain Standard
Time, <a href="mailto:andrekar@NCIDC.ORG">andrekar@NCIDC.ORG</a> writes:<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>The arguments against Rosetta stone remind me of the complaints
I <br>
have heard about the Phrasealator. Why do we need to pay so much <br>
money, people are just trying to get rich.<br>
<br>
I agree in a perfect world the items to help tribes recover and <br>
preserve their languages would be free to them (either through <br>
generosity, grants or other subsidy), but alas we are in less than a <br>
perfect world. The next best thing is to find out what works best <br>
(program, sytem, software, etc) regardless of costs and then work <br>
like the devil to get the costs covered. The paramount objective is
<br>
preservation of my language. Profiteers have to face their music <br>
when creator chooses.<br>
<br>
On Dec 10, 2007, at 5:19 PM, Mia Kalish wrote:<br>
<br>
What a lovely response, Don. I enjoyed the multiple perspectives and the<br>
thoughts that they engendered. And most of us have seen all of this, <br>
yes?<br>
By the way, a very nice lady from Rosetta Stone is on this list - or she<br>
used to be. Their technology is a lot like the technology we put <br>
together<br>
and researched. It is not exact; I don't want anyone to infer that I am<br>
implying any misbehavior on anyone's part. The point I want to make <br>
is that<br>
presenting the visual, the sound and the text simultaneously in what <br>
we did<br>
was 78% effective Across populations - that was, people who had heard <br>
Apache<br>
but were either not fluent or not literate, and people who had never <br>
been<br>
exposed to Apache ever. "Across populations" is a statistical <br>
characteristic<br>
that says that the populations are so alike they can be analyzed as a <br>
single<br>
group. This is rare in pedagogies.<br>
As for the publicity . . . Rosetta Stone advertises on television. <br>
They have<br>
lots of languages. I've lost track of how many. Publicity tells people<br>
what's happening. It tells People what Other People think is important.<br>
Right now, in New Mexico, there is a huge "DWI Blitz" (You drink;
you <br>
drive;<br>
you lose.) This is telling people who drive that people are taking <br>
driving<br>
sober very seriously. And there are lots of billboards talking about <br>
DWI;<br>
it's in the papers, on the news. Now, is this a current issue in a <br>
lot of<br>
state? No-o-o-o-o-o. But, my point here is that Publicity is how you let<br>
people know what others are thinking. I saw another sign today, "Ron
<br>
Paul<br>
for President . . . A new view" and I thought, Who is Ron Paul?
There <br>
was<br>
just one sign, and I couldn't connect it to anything else I had seen or<br>
heard. One sign won't get me to vote for Ron Paul for president, but <br>
many,<br>
many signs will get a lot of drunk drivers off the road, and will change<br>
attitudes.<br>
So maybe all the publicity for Rosetta Stone will start to change <br>
attitudes<br>
about what is important about People. For a long time, there has been <br>
the<br>
"white ruling class" and everyone else. Like Don pointed out,
there <br>
hasn't<br>
been much real knowledge about "everyone else." I am so happy to
see <br>
even<br>
the little bits of beginnings where we start to know about Everyone <br>
Else,<br>
even the Everyone Elses of us :-)<br>
<br>
Thanks Don,<br>
Really, really good piece - I think,<br>
Mia<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Indigenous Languages and Technology <br>
[<a href="mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU">mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU</a>]<br>
On Behalf Of Don Osborn<br>
Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 5:53 PM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU">ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU</a><br>
Subject: Re: [ILAT] Rosetta Stone<br>
<br>
As I look at this thread several thoughts occur. One is Robert Chambers'<br>
discussion of "positive practitioners" and "negative
academics" in<br>
international development. The former try to do something, whatever the<br>
agenda, and sometimes ineptly. The latter critique, sometimes <br>
insightfully<br>
and incisively and sometimes less so. That is not to say that one is <br>
right<br>
and the other wrong, but that in some ways they are like two different<br>
cultures.<br>
<br>
Jess Tauber is right to point out the ironies in the historical <br>
sweep. The<br>
same dominant culture that via education and technology tried to wipe <br>
out<br>
languages or systematically marginalize them (not just in the <br>
Americas), now<br>
is in part (at least the parts you see) trying to save them. It is <br>
natural<br>
to ask why.<br>
<br>
Part of it is the dynamic of power. I've noted - again in international<br>
development - that the people in positions to do so end up occupying or<br>
pre-empting both sides (or all positions) in many debates. Even about <br>
the<br>
nature of a people themselves. This was particularly striking in several<br>
decades of debates on pastoralism in Africa - an evolution of two <br>
opposing<br>
views on the rationality or not of transhumant (semi-nomadic) <br>
herding. An<br>
evolving debate entirely outside of the cultures discussed, with <br>
indirect<br>
and imperfect references to the herders' knowledge systems, and in terms<br>
totally outside pastoralists' languages, and totally immersed in Western<br>
terms of reference.<br>
<br>
I see a little of this in discussions on languages and on languages &<br>
technology.<br>
<br>
In part, this dynamic of power is just that way, like the wind just <br>
blows.<br>
It shifts too, and you can find a way to explain it, but in the end <br>
how do<br>
you protect yourself from it and better yet use its force to some <br>
advantage?<br>
<br>
So, on one level, Jess's generalizing about "they" responds to a
real <br>
set of<br>
issues. However on another level it seems to blur some realities.<br>
<br>
When looking at the specific case of companies like Rosetta Stone (or <br>
for<br>
that matter bigger technology companies) part of what one must <br>
appreciate is<br>
the nature of the beast and the environment it is working in. The bottom<br>
line and survival in that environment is money. How to get it can raise<br>
issues, but without it, *poof*. James's suspicion is natural, but with a<br>
company, what else is new?<br>
<br>
But even that is more complex. I resist reifying the notion of <br>
corporation<br>
too far to the point of overlooking the agency of people in <br>
organizations<br>
like Rosetta Stone, who may be very sincerely devoted to somehow <br>
changing<br>
the world for better. The latter may end up being the "positive<br>
practitioners" per Chambers' dichotomy, with their more or less <br>
imperfect<br>
human (and culturally bound) understanding of what they are dealing <br>
with -<br>
and their own environment to survive in.<br>
<br>
>From what little I know of Rosetta Stone I see it as a business that <br>
is at<br>
least trying to do something. It's making good money, apparently, in <br>
general<br>
language learning with a product that has positive reviews. It's <br>
stepping<br>
outside of that market in an interesting way. Of course they are <br>
milking it<br>
for publicity too, but again, that is the nature of companies. I <br>
don't know<br>
enough about the program, its approach or results to judge it, but I'm<br>
absolutely not surprised if there are limits in terms of what they <br>
spend on<br>
it (anything has limits).<br>
<br>
Let me finish with another technology example. A company named Lancor <br>
just<br>
sued the One Laptop Per Child project for alleged use of codes in a <br>
patented<br>
keyboard. The object of both keyboards is to facilitate input of <br>
"extended<br>
Latin characters" and diacritics for West African languages. I don't
<br>
know<br>
the technical or patent issues well enough, but whatever the merits <br>
of the<br>
case may or may not be, the ultimate victims will be people who might <br>
have<br>
been able to use the technology sooner for their languages.<br>
<br>
The collateral damage to common aims from disputes over methods can be<br>
considerable, and avoidable to the extent one accepts that everyone has<br>
honorable intent. (Maybe a key question is how to establish the <br>
latter and a<br>
sense of trust.)<br>
<br>
I'd agree with Mia's bottom line conclusion that someone has to do <br>
it. If<br>
you start subtracting potential partners from the equation, are you <br>
better<br>
off?<br>
<br>
Don Osborn<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<div>
<div style='margin-top:7.5pt'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-top:7.5pt;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black'>See AOL's <a
href="http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004"
target="_blank"
title="http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004">top
rated recipes</a> and <a
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ways to stay in shape</a> for winter.<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div><span style='border-spacing: 0px 0px;text-align:auto;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto;orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-spacing:0px'><span
style='border-spacing: 0px 0px;text-align:auto;-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto;orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-spacing:0px'>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1 color=black
face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></span></p>
<div style='min-height: 17px'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Lucida Grande"><span style='font-size:
10.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1 color=black
face=Courier><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>========================================================================</span></font></span><font
size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1 color=black
face=Courier><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>Keola
Donaghy
</span></font></span><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1 color=black
face=Courier><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>Assistant
Professor of Hawaiian Studies </span></font></span><font size=1
color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;
color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1 color=black
face=Courier><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>Ka
Haka 'Ula O Ke'elikolani <a
href="mailto:keola@leoki.uhh.hawaii.edu">keola@leoki.uhh.hawaii.edu</a> </span></font></span><font
size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1 color=black
face=Courier><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>University
of Hawai'i at Hilo <a
href="http://www2.hawaii.edu/~donaghy/">http://www2.hawaii.edu/~donaghy/</a></span></font></span><font
size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='min-height: 17px'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face="Lucida Grande"><span
style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lucida Grande";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1 color=black
face=Courier><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>"Tír
gan teanga, tír gan anam." (Irish Gaelic saying)</span></font></span><font
size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1 color=black
face=Courier><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>A
country without its language is a country without its soul.</span></font></span><font
size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-style-span><font size=1 color=black
face=Courier><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>========================================================================</span></font></span><font
size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Helvetica;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black'><br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</span></span>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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