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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree Deanna, I am also learning as an adult and
note that that fluent speakers tend to overcorrect adults learning versus
encouraging children which has a negative impact on learning. Adults rarely have
a such a nurturing environment to learn and fluent speakers are unaware
of their responses as to them, it should be relatively easy for us to
learn! but I have also found that once a fluent speaker attempts
to learn a new second language as an adult, they soon realize it is
not that easy to learn to speak a language with new spoken sounds and
rhythms that unfamiliar. It takes encouragement and patience and
repetition as even children must practice hearing and trying to speak
words before they master it and it does take some time! When fluent
speakers experience what we as second language learners go through by attempting
to learn a new language, they are much more in tune with a student's
perspective and learning curve. </FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I find that refraining from English replies
and instead acknowledging they comprehend what a new speaker
is attempting to say boosts confidence tremendously versus a response
indicating a new speaker not have yet achieved perfect pronunciation
during initial speaking attempts can be very disheartening given how long
it takes to even speak simple phrases for individuals! Often new speakers are
reluctant to speak again as the bar of speaking ability
has been raised unreasonably high so future attempts are affected. I
also find that people are far too rigid dialectically however I
understand they are proud of their language but again, they do not realize
the negative impact these kinds of responses have on the confidence level of a
new speaker. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Confidence in speaking is a mandatory
component of being able to gain speaking ability. Without confidence, an
individual will remain with the ability to understand a language but never
be speak it to others which is tantamount to being mute! I don't
think that either children or adults could learn to speak well if they
faced negative responses every time they attempted to speak!
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title="mailto:deanna.kingston@OREGONSTATE.EDU
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href="mailto:deanna.kingston@OREGONSTATE.EDU">Kingston, Deanna</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 18, 2011 10:51 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A
title="mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
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href="mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU">ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ILAT] Response to Deb Roy's study</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=4><FONT
face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Hi
all,<BR>I am not a linguist and I do not know the literature about language
acquisition, so my comment is based upon my own experience with trying to learn
two different languages as an adult. It also is based on my experience in
having to teach my son in other ways due to his Asperger’s Syndrome (potty
training, comes to mind).<BR><BR>I am taking Neski’s statement, which is his
paraphrase of Deb Roy’s point, which is while the parent is teaching the
language to the child, the child is also teaching the parent how to teach the
language. <BR><BR>Through trial and error, I have figured out the most effective
ways of teaching my son, so he has taught me which methods work and which
don’t.<BR><BR>When I tried to speak the Iñupiaq to elders in my community (King
Island Iñupiat) taught at UAF in the mid-90s, the elders several times would
reply in English: “We don’t say that. Those people up north (i.e., Barrow, which
was the dialect we were being taught) say that.” I was shut down and told that
what I was taught through a formal education system was not right.<BR><BR>I
contrast that with how we teach language to babies. There is constant positive
encouragement and tremendous patience (i.e., six months go to from “gaga” to
“water”, taking into account the development of the baby’s muscular development
in his mouth).<BR><BR>As an adult, at least in my experience, I haven’t received
the constant positive encouragement nor patience. So, it seems to me that
creating such a learning environment, with positive feedback loops, would be one
key to language acquistion. I know it would help me!! :
)<BR>Deanna<BR><BR><BR><BR>On 3/17/11 2:46 PM, "Neskie Manuel"
<neskiem@GMAIL.COM> wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=4><FONT face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Weytk Everyone,<BR><BR>I disagree with parts of the
comment that was highlighted. I think<BR>his line of inquiry was very
useful and presented in a good way.<BR>What Deb Roy appeared to be saying is
there are feedback loops<BR>involved in child-caregiver in language
acquisition.<BR><BR>What I heard Deb Roy say is something like, my
statement.<BR><BR>The parent is teaching the language to the child, and the
child is<BR>teaching the parent how to be a teacher of the
language.<BR><BR>What are all the details behind this I don't know and I don't
really<BR>care. I just want to know the important parts. I think
us as<BR>Secwepemc people knew this and expressed it in the statement
'children<BR>are the closest to the creator'. As secwepemc people we had
something<BR>to learn from children. This was our feedback loop we
created.<BR><BR>Different pedagogies produce different feedback loops, some
are better<BR>at others, all require energy and work to keep them
going.<BR><BR>When I hear the word feedback loop, I think of differential
equations<BR>and large scale dynamical and chaotic systems. Here I want
to perform<BR>a thought experiment. Let's say you could
mathematically model<BR>language acquisition with some set of differential
equations and you<BR>want language acquistiion to increase. This set of
differential<BR>equations will behave something like weather, in that it will
be<BR>sensitive to initial conditions, and boundary values.<BR><BR>What this
says to me is that we have to pay close attention to the<BR>initial conditions
we find ourselves in an what is going on in the<BR>environment around language
acquisition.<BR><BR>I like your two questions Susan. I think a
"mathematical" look might<BR>be helpful. I would like to respond to them
now, but I have to run<BR>off.<BR><BR>On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Susan
Penfield<BR><susan.penfield@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>> A comment from Rex
Sprouse ( in italics and posted elsewhere) is worth<BR>> considering in
this context.<BR>><BR>> Less than 5 minutes
ago: Deb Roy appears to equate the acquisition of a<BR>> word with the
first (or with the consistent?) production of an adult-like<BR>>
pronunciation of the word. However, words are much more
complex mental<BR>> objects, relating an abstract representation of sound,
grammatical category<BR>> (noun, verb, etc.), morpho-syntactic features,
semantic features, pragmatic<BR>> features, etc. No matter how
sophisticated the technology used for recording<BR>> the child's speech,
data about production alone can tell us about only one<BR>> (and I must
say, for me, the least interesting) aspect of this cognitively<BR>> complex
process.<BR>><BR>> On a broader
level, what I found disappointing about the talk is that<BR>> it was
difficult to identify anything like a clear research question behind<BR>>
the collection of massive amounts of data. This
is a very central and<BR>> very divisive matter within current linguistics:
Recent technology has made<BR>> it easier to amass huge amounts of
linguistic data. However, in the absent<BR>> of theoretically motivated
research questions, it is difficult for me to buy<BR>> into the notion that
this represents genuine progress.<BR>><BR>> -My thoughts: What I find
interesting, considering the ILAT audience, is how<BR>> very little we
still know about language acquisition (first and second) in<BR>> the
context of revitalization.<BR>> I would like to know about any
targeted research studies that would be<BR>> aimed at better understanding
the process. We have teaching methods<BR>> (immersion,
Master-Apprentice) which we all know are working in some<BR>> contexts --
but how, specifically? And, what might we learn from more<BR>>
focused studies, that raise clear questions, which actually might improve
or<BR>> help us better understand what it takes to help people learn
in<BR>> non-traditional, less formal, contexts?<BR>><BR>> Just trying
to wrap my thoughts around all of this...<BR>><BR>> S.-<BR>>
**********************************************************************************************<BR>>
Susan D. Penfield, Ph.D.<BR>><BR>> Research Coordinator, Center for
Educational Resources in Culture, Language<BR>> and Literacy
(CERCLL),<BR>> Faculty affiliate in English, Linguistics, Language,
Reading and Culture<BR>> Second Language Acquisition and Teaching Ph.D.
Program (SLAT),<BR>> American Indian Language Development Institute
(AILDI)<BR>> The Southwest Center<BR>> University of Arizona,<BR>>
Tucson, Arizona 85721<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>--<BR>Neskie
Manuel<BR><A
href="http://neskiemanuel.ath.cx">http://neskiemanuel.ath.cx</A><BR>Tel: (250)
679-2821<BR>SIP: mac@sip.ca2.link2voip.com<BR>Skype: neskiemanuel<BR>Twitter:
@neskiem<BR>Identi.ca: <A
href="http://identi.ca/neskie">http://identi.ca/neskie</A><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>