<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 9.00.8112.16450"></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=326353304-25092012>It now seems so far
'after the fact', to post to the list. What I did have in mind to reinforce what
your post was very succinctly pointing out is the incredible and symbiotic
relation of language, place and ceremony/ritual.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=326353304-25092012>We, my family, live at
the juncture of the Great Lakes, Sault Ste. Marie, Canada. I was raised in a
potowatomi/Ojibway community on the Georgian Bay. Our lives, our livelihood, our
language and our ceremonials were/are inseparable from 'our' place. We have
seasonal ceremonies to do with the lake waters, rivers and streams that feed us.
There are spirits in those waters and we have many times and seasons of
offerings and praying with those spirits. It is all tied into our place in the
cosmos and we do these things because we have always done them.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=326353304-25092012>My wife and I
decided we would move our personal family, kiddies, cat, dog and etc, as
if a nuclear family possible, to Tucson, Arizona and she would do her
Masters there in the Indian Studies Program studying with some of the big names
like Vine Deloria Jr., Dr. Robert K. Thomas, Dr. Tom Holmes and a host of other
profs. We moved there in August of '89 knowing nothing about the deserts. Here,
at the lakes, this time of year, autumn, is a time of offerings and feasts
involving the lakes the water and our harvests. When it came time to do our
offerings with the water, there was no water. In essence, we were not able to be
who we are supposed to be without that water. There were man made ponds in a few
of the parks but were not filled with what we call 'water'. We went up Mount
Lemmon and searched the hills for a lake...there were none. We could not do our
ceremonies or make our offerings on the lakes. My wife was more disturbed
by this than I but I understood where she was at. She needed to do
what we needed to do so she could be at peace during her studies and our stay in
Tucson. We were left with no choice but to take the time to come home and do, at
the least, our most important offerings. So we did that. It is 2,100 miles from
our house to Tucson and another 2,100 miles to drive back to Tucson. We did it,
and we got very good at it. If we travelled 70 miles per hour for 10
hours we could be here in three days and after a short rest, back to Tucson
in 3 more days. During the three years we lived in Tucson, we made that
trip 12 time and once for a holiday.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=326353304-25092012>The impact of the land,
people and language was indelibly impressed on us and I don't speak of
'just land', I speak of the extremely particular land of each
people who live there. My wife and I and our children will never forget we
and the land are symbiotic. I mentioned to my wife the discussion on land loss
vs. language loss and the implication of a dichotomised importance. She looked
at me like I had lost something. I told her it was a very serious
discussion on ILAT. She said '...then they have no experience for it and no
way of knowing us...' I think, sometimes she sees me as chasing pots of gold at
the end of rainbows...maybe even all the time. I have not talked about
it with her since...lol.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=326353304-25092012>Our children didn't
always want to make that long exodus back to the Great Lakes with us and so
became quite acculturated and acclimatized to that desert environment. Our
youngest son stayed the entire time in Tucson with his Papago, Yaqui, Mexican
and Spanish American friends. When we made the final return trip we were
probably in the Oklahoma/Missouri area when he made the comment, '...wow Dad, I
forgot how many white people there are...' I'll never forget that one because it
was another realization... And then as we moved northward he again made another
profound comment...'wow...you can smell the water in the air up here...' So, if
there is an intention, with indigenous peoples, to make some kind of artificial
dichotomy somewhere, then someone somewhere is being done a great and harmful
injustice.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=326353304-25092012>Just thought of one more
story: Our eldest son, while we were down there, adopted a little pup and
as with a lot of our peoples that dog was just another part of the family. Our
son named him 'Chico'. We brought him back with us to Sault Ste. Marie and we
did it in a marathon drive. When we pulled into the yard up here, everyone was
so happy to be free. Chico jumped out of the jeep, ran across the driveway and
stopped at the edge of the lawn. He put his paw on it, sniffed it and ran back
and jumped in the jeep. He had no experience for grass. In Tucson all the yards
have brick fences all around the back yards and the only other place we took him
was to the desert. Even our dog had to adjust to his new environment and he went
absolutely crazy with the first snowfall.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=326353304-25092012>So these are a few
thoughts I would have shared on ILAT with, perhaps, less of a personal
narrative. The points you made so well brought these back to the forefront of my
memories. So I will close now and kind of sorry I didn't get to share it with
everyone...my wife and granddaughter were out at Lake Superior shores last week
for offerings and ceremonies. Hopefully I have not ranted on too
long....</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV align=left> </DIV>
<DIV align=left>wahjeh</DIV>
<DIV align=left>rolland nadjiwon</DIV>
<DIV align=left>________________ </DIV>
<DIV align=left>
<DIV id=yui_3_2_0_1_13482848312681005><SPAN
id=yui_3_2_0_1_13482848312681002>"<FONT id=yui_3_2_0_1_1348284831268999>I can
remember when the air was clean and sex was dirty." George
Burns</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> Indigenous Languages and Technology
[mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Richard Zane
Smith<BR><B>Sent:</B> September-19-12 2:18 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ILAT] Language more important
than land - academic (fwd link)<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><BR>The dispossession and ethnic cleansing by force and legal
judicial action by a wonderful new democratic society as USA<BR>is a disturbing
contradiction difficult to grasp. It still raises that inner dark question
of "Are we somehow less human<BR>to be disposed of so systematically by
such a flag waving, cheering smiling patriotic people?"<BR><BR>When a people
with cyclical ceremonial life are removed form homelands and placed on lands
that are basically "foreign"<BR>it is very difficult for land based ceremonies
and life-ways to survive. When my own ancestors surveyed lands in
Kansas<BR>prior to forced removal ,the scouts reported that the land was lacking
in maple trees, which were such a part of our lives.<BR>To remove even one
ceremony (as the Thanking of the Maples) one busy cultural activity as sap
harvesting, was to break a <BR>spoke from the wheel of our highly fluid and
active Lifeway circle within which all seasons flowed together.<BR>The Midwinter
ceremonies themselves ceased when Oklahoma weather was found so different than
northern climates.<BR>Adaption to that which is new is not the issue. The issue
is an undermining of land/mind/community/life-cycle.<BR><BR>So even when
ceremonies do survive ,its within context of some distant place....and some
spoken distant past,<BR>more of a memorial activity ...no longer representing
the land and action we now live with. A symbol is not reality itself,<BR>and
symbolic actions,even ceremonial activities, can easily become rituals drifting
from the reality of community living.<BR>Combine relocation with the missionary
drive to imbed into the hearts and minds of children middle eastern creation
stories,<BR>and frightening pictures of a "hell" for those who do not
renounce their pagan ways... we end up with a very mixed up tribal
identity,<BR>depression and a sense of worthlessness and betrayal. Betraying our
families if we convert, betraying modernity if we don't.<BR><BR>its difficult to
write about, to express. I haven't read much on this topic, yet.<BR>i'm simply
speaking from personal struggle,thoughts and
observation.<BR><BR>ské:nǫh<BR>Richard Zane
Smith<BR>(Sǫhahiyǫh)<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Dr. MJ Hardman <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:hardman@ufl.edu"
target=_blank>hardman@ufl.edu</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">What
you say is the way I understood it 50+ years ago when I first went into the
mountains and discovered that the only people in town during the day were the
schoolkids, the ill, the drunks sprawled in the plaza - all men, and one blind
man. The drunks were all men who had left and come back. I learned
what women could do and could be and for that I am profoundly grateful.
I had, naively, expected to work with the women during the day (utter
ignorance on my very young part). I worked with the blind man, who was a
superb teacher and who very much enjoyed working with me with his Jaqaru.
Since it was always dark, he was often the one who did the irrigating at
night, and he liked to travel at night. But the drunks, as I read it,
were those who had left, been in the military or some other experience,
learned the sexism/racism of the hispanic system and come back unable to
fulfill the expectations of either culture, and thus, unable to feel good
about themselves. This is an observation of the late 50s, but it
correlates with what you are saying and the way in which they were treated
while they were away, in ways they could not admit nor process. It
seemed even more evident as I learned more about Jaqi culture. MJ
<DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>On 9/13/12 9:49 AM, "Richard Zane Smith" <<A
href="http://rzs@WILDBLUE.NET" target=_blank>rzs@WILDBLUE.NET</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Thanks Rolland and thanks MJ!<BR>look forward to
reading it.<BR>From our Wyandot removal, actually ALL the small nations
removed to this NE corner of OKL.<BR>we are very likely some of the most
assimilated people groups. Also among the most belittled, <BR>and shamed,
from all sides for not surviving as "real Indians" ( another big topic
entirely)<BR>There is VERY likely a corolation between land loss (legalized
ethnic cleansing), <BR>and depression, alcoholism, poverty, the loss of
identity,as well as the obvious, language and ceremony.<BR><BR>Indigenous
people groups, leaving homelands behind are in some way "reconstructed"
people groups.<BR>In our past captives were expected to leave behind the
identity they were born into,<BR>to merge into their adopted clan and
phratry. In many regards we are captives taken to <BR>a foreign land -
trout raised in a pet store...<BR><BR>unę́h,<BR>Richard<BR><BR><BR><BR>On
Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 2:07 AM, Rolland Nadjiwon <<A
href="http://mikinakn@shaw.ca" target=_blank>mikinakn@shaw.ca</A>>
wrote:<BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">P.P.S. to my post: <BR> <BR>Hardman, M.
J. (1994) “’And if we lose our names, then what about our land?’, or, what
price development?” in L. H. Turner and H. M. Sterk (eds) <I>Differences
that Make a Difference: Examining the Assumptions in Gender Research</I>
(pp. 152-161). Westport & London: Bergin & Garvey.<BR> <BR><A
href="http://plaza.ufl.edu/hardman/DTPacket/linguisticpostulate.pdf"
target=_blank>http://plaza.ufl.edu/hardman/DTPacket/linguisticpostulate.pdf</A>
in the .pdf format it is pages 34-39(equals
151-161)<BR> <BR> <BR>wahjeh<BR>rolland
nadjiwon<BR>________________ <BR>Harper is a joke and 'pansy' to anyone
and any country that will act as his 'sin eater'...<BR><BR> <BR>
<HR align=center SIZE=3 width="100%">
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><FONT
face="Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><B>From:</B> Indigenous Languages
and Technology [<A href="mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU"
target=_blank>mailto:ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Huang,Chun<BR><B>Sent:</B> September-12-12 9:35 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="http://ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU"
target=_blank>ILAT@LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ILAT]
Language more important than land - academic (fwd link)<BR></FONT><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>Thank you, Bernadette
Adley-SantaMaria<BR><BR>I recommend Hardman's article below where, through
studying Jaqaru, she explains how land is indeed, as you point out,
intertwined with language (both being parts of the whole): if you
lose one, you lose the other. Hardman also demonstrates how English,
especially the English cultural thinking as manifested its three major
linguistic postulates, can often do damage to the indigenous/local. One of
the English postulates Hardman identifies is "ranking through
comparative/absolute," which the original article in question here
exemplifies very well for us: "</FONT><FONT
face="Georgia, Times New Roman"><B>Language (is) more important than
land!</B></FONT><FONT face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">" Really, what's
the point of ranking the importance of language against the importance of
land anyway??? Many English users, unfortunately, seem unable to escape
such ranking mentality.<BR><BR>Hardman, M. J. (1994) “’And if we lose our
names, then what about our land?’, or, what price development?” in L. H.
Turner and H. M. Sterk (eds) <I>Differences that Make a Difference:
Examining the Assumptions in Gender Research</I> (pp. 152-161). Westport
& London: Bergin & Garvey.<BR><BR>Let me or Dr. Hardman know if
you can't find a copy. I believe she wouldn't mind
sharing.<BR><BR> <BR><BR>Chun (Jimmy) Huang<BR><BR>Siraya of
Taiwan<BR><BR>Assistant Professor, University of
Guam<BR></FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR><BR></FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV><SPAN><FONT
color=#888888><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><FONT
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>Dr. MJ Hardman<BR>Professor of
Linguistics and Anthropology<BR>Department of Linguistics<BR>University of
Florida, Gainesville, Florida<BR>Doctora Honoris Causa UNMSM, Lima, Perú
<BR>website: <A href="http://grove.ufl.edu/~hardman/"
target=_blank>http://grove.ufl.edu/~hardman/</A>
<BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR
clear=all><BR>-- <BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">"…revitalizing our
language is really just an act of returning to what we are supposed to be. It is
like a fish returning to the water, breathing and living once
again. "</SPAN><FONT size=1><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Xh'unei
Lance E. Twitchell (Tlingit)</SPAN></FONT></P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: x-small"><I><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; FONT-STYLE: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN style="COLOR: white"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: small"></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></B>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; TEXT-AUTOSPACE: "><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 13pt"></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: x-small"><I><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; FONT-STYLE: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; FONT-FAMILY: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px"><I></I></SPAN></I></SPAN></P><I><I>
<P
style="TEXT-ALIGN: right; PADDING-BOTTOM: 10px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 1em; PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; DISPLAY: inline !important; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><SPAN
style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT-FAMILY: arial; FONT-SIZE: small"><A
href="http://richardzanesmith.wordpress.com"
target=_blank>richardzanesmith.wordpress.com</A></SPAN></P></I><I></I></I><I><I>
<P></P></I></I><I></I>
<P></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></I></SPAN><I><I><I></I>
<P></P></I></I><I>
<P></P></I></DIV></DIV><BR><A></A>
<P align=left color="#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2013.0.2667 / Virus
Database: 2579/5775 - Release Date: 09/18/12</P>
<HR SIZE=1 noShade>
<A></A>
<P align=left color="#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2013.0.2667 / Virus
Database: 2579/5777 - Release Date: 09/19/12</P></BODY></HTML>