Latin and Slavonic for `moon'

[X99Lynx at aol.com]

In a message dated 4/23/99 11:03:38 PM, vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu wrote:

<<We can't tell gneH1 from gneH3 in Sanskrit, but jn~a:ti ``relative'' occurs
in RV 7.55.5 (AV-like charm) and three times in Mandala 10. >>

In a message dated 4/26/99 5:36:56 PM, petegray at btinternet.com wrote:

<< So jn~a:ti is clearly cognate with the Greek gno:tos,
and is from the knowing root.>>

But note what happens here.  Here is some small evidence of *genH3 sometimes
showing up as "relative" in Sanskrit.  And in Homer 'gnotos' not only means a
thing known or perceived, it also can mean a 'relative' (gnotoi te gnotai te,
Illiad 15.350, 'brothers", "sisters").

Note that this gives the form a meaning that crosses with such words as "kin"
which are supposed to come from *genH1.

Whether or not this comes from vowel changes or incorrect usage or some
earlier common root, it could mean that borrowings (applied to new senses or
referents) in other languages may have experienced the same kind of
crossover.  And although Sanskrit is relevant, the usages in Greek are
particularly meaningful, because of the way they may have influenced other IE
languages.  Words like gnostic and gonus reentered other IE languages and may
have done so before our earliest direct evidence of those languages.

I'm interested in how one discriminates between a form that entered an IE
language from very early Greek for example as opposed to directly from PIE.

vidynath at math.ohio-state.edu wrote:
<<I also find the semantics of gneH3/gno: curious. It is presumably an
eventive and not a stative like ``know'' (which is the function of woide).
Sanskrit has a nasal present which is generally said to reflect a process,
Latin uses -ske/o and Greek reduplication + -ske/o which are generally taken
to represent iteration/duration. What was the original meaning?

[ Moderator's response:
The Greek and Latin reflexes seem to mean "come to know, learn"; a durative
would then mean "know by having learned", an iterative "get to know".  In
Latin, -sco- is an inchoative as often as an iterative, so "begin to learn,
start to know".]

petegray at btinternet.com replied:
<<In addition to the moderator's comments on Latin & Greek, a further
objection to this approach is that it is very difficult to ascribe clear
distinctions to the various present formations we find in PIE.>>

Actually, I may be wrong, but I don't think our moderator is 'objecting' to
this approach.  And the distinction between the two kinds of "know" - if they
are reflected in the verb forms - may give a better sense of not only the
meaning but also of how they evolved.  What is the difficulty with the
non-stative possibility described above?

<<PIE *gneh3 gives... e.g. jn~a:tr (someone who knows). >>

Does 'jn~a:tr' actually occur in the texts?

<<PIE *genH1 (PIE *genH1 (note the different ablaut form from *gneh3,
attested in a number of IE languages)>>

Is that the basis of the ablaut difference, that it is attested in for
example Greek?  Is that difference accounted for in Gothic and Latin?  I
believe earlier someone pointed to *genH3.  Is the vowel grade supposed to be
in some way caused by the presence of H3 versus H1?   What is one to make of
the ablaut analysis with regard to 'gignomai' and 'gnotos'?

Regards,
Steve Long