Borrowing pronouns

[Frank Rossi]

[ Moderator's note:
  Although similar, this post *is* different from Mr. Rossi's previous posting
  on the topic.
  --rma ]

JPM wrote:

>2. As of 1960, in the Veneto, dialect speakers were uncomfortable with the
feminine pronoun <Lei> in addressing a man. They address a man with their
masculine pronoun <Lu>.

The same applies to Lombardy today.
Dialect speakers who don't speak Italian well (and there are still many
around), address strangers as Lui, which is considered quite incorrect in
Standard Italian.
In MIlanese Lombard dialect, the rules of which are codified, the polite
forms of address are:
 Lu (French "u") for men, Lee (long closed "e") for women, Lor ("o" =
Italian "u") plural both sexes;
familiar singular "ti" = Italian "tu", plural "vialter" = Italian "voi",
cf. Cast. "vosotros", Fr. "vous autres".
The long / short vowel contrast is typical of Western Lombard and may
derive from the influence of the Germanic Longobard superstrate (as also in
Friulan).
By way of contrast, in Bergamasco (Eastern Lombard), the terms are:
.Lu: (French "u") for men, Le' (closed "e" no length difference), Lur
plural both sexes;
familiar singular "te" = Italian "tu", plural "voter"/"oter" = Italian
"voi", Cast. "vosotros", Fr. "vous autres".
Milanese may have borrowed the  usage of the 3rd person for the 2nd
directly from Spanish, as Milan was under Spanish domination for 200 years,
but in Bergamo this cannot have been the case, as Bergamo was under Venice.
So probably both were influenced by what was then the Tuscan literary
language, which as sustained by Devoto and most others, borrowed the usage
from Spanish.

Yesterday, as I was out walking with my wife, we were addressed as "Loro"
by an
old lady, and we were (pleasantly) struck by this, as this form is rapidly
losing ground in the
plural as I said in my earlier posting.

Frank Rossi
Bergamo, Italy
iglesias at axia.it