Fwd: andera 'woman' Celtic ?

[Miguel Carrasquer Vidal]

"roslyn frank" <roslynfrank at hotmail.com> wrote:

>>From: Xavier Delamarre <xdelamarre at siol.net>
>>Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 23:02:02 +0100

>[XD]

>>I confess that the celticity of _*andera_ 'woman' (found in French
>>dialects) is extremely uncertain.Moreover there is another Gaulish
>>_andero-_ in the inscription of Chamalihre : _brixtia anderon_ "by the
>>magic of the  infernals" (anderon : genitive plur.), which is, for
>>sure, IE and Celtic, making an exact phonetic equation with Latin _inferus_
>>O.Ind. _adhara-_ < IE _*ndhero-_ "d'en-bas, d'en-dessous, infernal".

>[RF]

>I'm curious what your opinion is of Theo Vennemann's lengthy discussion
>of this root, _*andera_ 'woman', in his recent article in the JIES
>Monograph Series No. 28 (1998), especially pp. 12-17. The article is
>called "Andromeda and the Apples of the Hesperides" (pp. 1-68). I have
>my own opinions as I'm certain Larry and Miguel do, but I'd first like
>to understand the reasons, if any, why the item cannot belong to a
>common lexical heritage (pre-IE) that passed it onto IE and Euskera.

What exactly does that mean?  A common language, say Nostratic,
from which both IE and Basque are descended?  Or a common
(substrate) language from which both IE and Basque have borrowed?
The latter solution raises more questions than it answers, as
it's hard to imagine any prehistoric language that would have
been in contact with both PIE and Pre-Basque, at a time when
linguistic diversity must have been much greater than it became
after the IE expansion.

>Also, in reference to the second item, has anyone thought of its
>possible relationship to _andiron_ (Mod. Eng.) for which the AHD (171:
>49) lists the following entry: "One of a pair of metal supports for
>holding up logs in a fireplace. Also called 'firedog.' [Middle English
>_aundiren_, variant of Old French _andier_, firedog, from Gaulish
>_andero-_ (unattested), young bull (andirons were often decorated with
>heads of animals at the top).]"

>The origin of the expression "firedog" is quite obvious since in times
>past, i.e., in the Middle Ages and beyond, in the Pyrenean region a
>small dog was kept in a revolving squirrel-type cage at the side of the
>hearth. The cage's construction was such that it forced the dog to walk
>in order to keep its balance and that walking movement was transmitted
>by means of a simple gear mechanism to the iron rod or spit that turned
>the carcass of meat empaled on it above the fire. That way those who
>tended the fire were, indeed, actually dogs. The gear mechanism slowly
>rotated so that the piece of meat didn't burn and those in the house
>didn't have to sit next to the fire all day turning the spit. The
>practice was probably widespread throughout Europe, but I'm speaking of
>drawings that I've seen with pictures from the Pyrenean region showing
>this breed of dog. Evidently, there were small dogs especially bred to
>fit into the cages and capable of tolerating the onerous nature of the
>task. In fact, one writer mentioned that in the house where she stayed
>when the dog would awake, it often tried to escape, before it was locked
>up in its cage for the day's work.

Can't blame the poor beast.  Interesting, but it doesn't explain
Catalan <cavall de foc> "fire horse" or German <Feuerbock> "fire
goat", nor the alleged connection with Celtic words for "bull".

>However, in the Pyrenees it wasn't always a dog that ended up tending
>the fires, particularly in the case of the fires for communal ovens used
>to make bread. There the woman who was in charge was called the
>_labandere_, a compound in Euskera derived from _labe_ with the
>phonological reduction to _lab(e)_ or _laba_ in composition and, of
>course, <andera>. It would translate as something like "oven-woman".
>Could the French term cited above, namely, _andiere_, be nothing more
>than _(labe)andere_. If one were to try to carry the comparison further,
>it might be necessary to speak of some sort of palatalization of the /d/
>which is not at all unusual in Euskera, and perhaps even more common in
>northern dialects of the language. What do you think, Larry? Miguel?

According to my information, the French word is <landier>
(misanalyzed from <l'andier>), with the usual French development
of *E > ie.  Pokorny glosses <landier> as "Feuerbock" (firedog),
"Widder" (ram), and also "Mohn" (poppy, but my French dictionary
says: "furze, gorse"), comparing this to It. madonna, fantina
"poppy" < "young girl".  (But Pokorny lists all this under PIE
*andh- "to bloom, sprout", Greek anthos "flower").

>In conclusion, I have no idea whether there is any connection between
>any of the above and your earlier remarks on the Gaullish item _andero-_
>which I gather from the AHD entry someone thought meant "young bull". I
>do recall once reading that there was some Celtic form with the meaning
>"young cow, heifer" or something like that which was listed as cognate
>with the Euskeric work <andere>/<andre>.

Welsh anner "young cow", OWelsh enderic "calf", Welsh enderig
"bull, ox", Breton ounner, annouar, annoer "young cow" (besides
MIr. ainder, aindir "young woman").

=======================
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal
mcv at wxs.nl
Amsterdam