From acnasvers at hotmail.com Tue Jan 2 04:16:27 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 04:16:27 -0000 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: On 28 Dec 2000, Rick Mc Callister wrote: >I looked in Buck and found > Latin catulus, catellus "puppy, cub" [Buck 1949: 180] Various Latin poets use to denote the young of pigs, lions, wolves, and bears. "Puppy, young dog" is evidently a specialization. > Rumanian catel, Old Italian catello, Old French cael, obsolete >French cheau [Buck 1949: 180] > Old Norse hadhna "kid", Russian kotot'sja, Polish kocic'sie "bear >cub" [Buck 1949: 180] > Posner also cites Sardinian kateddu "little dog, puppy" < *ket- + >-ellu [Posner 1996: 86] This looks like a direct reflex of Lat. , given that Sard. -dd- from Lat. -ll- is regular. > which suggests the possibility of >catulus/catellus > *katlu > *katju/kakju/kacju > *kac^o > cach-orro > although I imagine an /e/ would be expected, as in lacte- > leche Span. -ech- regularly results from Lat. -act-, but other situations producing Span. -ch- may leave a preceding /a/ unchanged, as from , so *cach- <- *catlus <- is reasonable. Does anyone know why is feminine? Velazquez (1959) gives 'cub, the young of a beast' as one sense of , and 'litter, young brought forth by an animal at once' appears to be based on the same root. As with , both generic and specific meanings are in use. > so maybe there was influence from Spanish cazar, Italian cacciare >"to hunt" < Vulgar Latin *captiare "to hunt" < Latin capio "I take" >and BIG MAYBE a methathesis (or some type of sequence in which the >palatalization was scrambled) in Basque > txakur and BIGGER MAYBE a >backformation to zakur--but I don't expect anyone to take my word without >proof :> > I'd appreciate suggestions Giovanni Alessio briefly discusses some of these words in his review of Hubschmid's "Mediterrane Substrate" (St. Etr. XXIX, 1961, pp. 362-79). Alessio rejects the connection between the Sardo-Corsican dog-terms and Basque , on phonetic grounds. He suggests might be derived from a Ligurian form represented by Late Lat. , Ital. 'bloodhound'. The vowel-alternation is parallel to Lat. : Span. 'holm-oak'. Ligurians living near Tartessos are reported by Steph. Byz. (s.v. Ligustine), and Thuc. (VI.2.2) says the Sicanians claimed to be Iberians driven from the basin of the Sikanos (mod. Jucar?) by Ligurians. Alessio thus hypothesizes that the Ligurians brought substratal forms from the Balkans to southern Spain, whence the Iberians passed some of them (perhaps including ) on to the Basques, giving Hubschmid and others the false impression that Basque itself originated in the East. > Does anyone know how recent the terms are in the Balkan and >Caucasus languages cited? > Is it possible that they all spring from a Slavic, Greek or Turkish >term for a specific type of dog? The modern Greek, Balkan, and Turkish terms probably come from Common Greek (kuo:n) '(dog) useful for hunting'. The use of the Aeolic form, rather than Attic *diagraios, probably reflects an Aeolic predilection for hunting expressed by 'mad about hunting' which is based on Aeolic 'wild animal', not on the Attic form . My guess is the Sardo-Corsican terms are also from this Greek source. What little I have found about Georg. indicates that it simply means 'dog, Hund' without reference to hunting utility. Georgian dissimilates /r/ to /l/ when another /r/ precedes, but a single /r/ in a word appears to be stable, so there is no evident basis for connecting with the other dog-terms. DGK From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 4 00:02:05 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:02:05 -0600 Subject: Greek Genitive Plural Message-ID: The only reason I know of to think that /s/ once existed in the gen plural of /a/-stems in Greek is that late PIE apparently did not tolerate hiatus to the extent that /a-oon/ would mandate, at least not in V-stem nouns. Note that even in Sanskrit V-stems, where intrusive /s/ was not used (not counting some pronouns), it was still evidently felt necessary to begin the final syl with some consonant, in this case /n/. It seems that different branches adopted different solutions to the same perceived problem. So we have some indirect evidence of a phonotactic constraint. I have not bothered to check the rest of posited PIE morphology to see if this constraint holds up across the board, though right off the top of my head I cannot think of any evidence that it does not. Dr. David L. White From petegray at btinternet.com Thu Jan 4 09:42:56 2001 From: petegray at btinternet.com (petegray) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:42:56 -0000 Subject: Gk gen plural Message-ID: > Wouldn't they both end up the same? ... I'm not sure in what > circumstances in Greek you could expect to see a difference between the > result of -aso:m and -aH2o:m. This was my point. Several authors confidently assert that the pronominal ending -asom was adopted into Greek as well as into Latin, but I can see no evidence for this assertion at all. The only argument I can see is from probability: Latin and Greek both borrow the pronominal nominative plural, Latin/Italic borrows the pronominal genitive plural, so perhaps Greek also did - but the books seem to make statements more strongly than that. (e.g. Szemerenyi p190 "Latin and Greek ... both from -a:som .. the pronominal ending." Beekes, on the other hand, avoids this error.) I'm glad I haven't overlooked some obvious bit of evidence! Peter From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 4 00:34:38 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:34:38 -0600 Subject: Anthony as Greek? Message-ID: > Let me apologize, but it is escaping me why "Anthony" cannot come from Gk > or . Aeschylus before 400BC already uses the term to > also denote "pride", "honor" and "height of achievement". It was also used > to connote "brightness" or "brilliance." Parallel the name with Gk > , garland, and the fact that appears as a Roman name > at least by the first century BC. > Is there a clear reason why Ant[h]onius cannot be Greek? Not an overwhelmingly clear reason, perhaps, but "Antonius", sans "h", is a Roman family name presumably of some ancientry (since Roman families were not made up anew, not that I ever heard of anyway). "Stephanus", by contrast, is a given or personal name, so the analogy is not quite exact. But since Roman family names were (I vaguely recall) fairly often of Etruscan origin, and the Etruscans probably came from the Eastern Mediterranean, is seems within the range of possibility the Roman name could ultimately go back to the same source, perhaps one of those Mediterranean words like "olive". I am not aware of any evidence that the word is legitimately IE, though it may be. Dr. David L. White From BMScott at stratos.net Thu Jan 4 20:18:47 2001 From: BMScott at stratos.net (Brian M. Scott) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 15:18:47 -0500 Subject: Anthony as Greek? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, 29 December, 2000, at 11:58:02, Steve Long wrote: SL> Let me apologize, but it is escaping me why "Anthony" cannot come SL> from Gk or . [...] Is there a clear reason why SL> Ant[h]onius cannot be Greek? Roman (as distinct from medieval) and its derivatives rather consistently appear with , not the that one would expect in a borrowing of Gk . And it seems to be borrowed into Greek with tau, not theta: according to Morlet (Les noms de personne sur le territoire de l'ancienne Gaule du VIe au XIIe siècle, I:20a), H. Dessau (Inscriptiones latinae selectae) cites two Greek transcriptions of , both with <'Anto:->, and Russian is apparently from Greek . Brian M. Scott From Georg at home.ivm.de Thu Jan 4 00:56:57 2001 From: Georg at home.ivm.de (Stefan Georg) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:56:57 +0100 Subject: Meaning of "Goth" In-Reply-To: <001701c0729f$e79a75c0$f16163d1@texas.net> Message-ID: > By the way (displaying my ignorance here), how does OHG "kans" >appear as modern German "gans"? Did only the /d/ -> /t/ part of this shift >get fully established in standard German? It's OHG, MHG, and NHG /gans/. -- Dr. Stefan Georg Heerstraße 7 D-53111 Bonn FRG Tel./Fax +49-228-691332 From vistasjy at md.prestige.net Thu Jan 4 04:07:54 2001 From: vistasjy at md.prestige.net (JohnYY) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:07:54 -0500 Subject: The sun never sets ... Message-ID: We are discussing the linguistics of a mythic locale - I believe that Bombay is no more, having been replaced officially by something like "Mumbai". From bronto at pobox.com Thu Jan 4 04:41:57 2001 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:41:57 -0800 Subject: II subgroups Message-ID: rohan.oberoi at cornell.edu wrote: > Try: > http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/karten/indi/indicm.htm > for a map and accompanying classifications, albeit in German. Thanks! Some of it is hard to read, but it'll do for most purposes. -- Anton Sherwood -- br0nt0 at p0b0x.com -- http://ogre.nu/ From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 4 19:18:46 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:18:46 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G Kilday" Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 9:32 PM > On 22 Dec 2000, Eduard Selleslagh wrote: >> And the (in origin Anatolian) Etruscans are linguistically second cousins of >> the Italic speaking peoples, so the search for the roots of the latter day >> Antonii (etc...) risks becoming cyclical ('cercle vicieux'). > This is the second time in a month you have represented this flimsy > hypothesis of Etruscans coming from Anatolia as though it were an > established fact. If you actually have any non-cyclical arguments > (preferably linguistic) in favor of an eastern homeland for the Etruscans, > perhaps you could post them here or on the other list. > Doug Kilday > [ Moderator's note: > The hypothesis that the Etruscans may have originated in Anatolia appears > to be supported by the presence on the island of Lemnos of a stele > inscribed in a language clearly related to but differing from the Etruscan > of Italy. > --rma ] [Ed Selleslagh] I thought this was something of majority view. Of course, final proof is hard to get by, and one should keep an open mind. I'll give you some arguments, but I don't intend to start a new thread on this. The moderator's note is indeed the main argument. The stele found near Kaminia on Lemnos (by G. Cousin and F. Dürrbach in 1885) dates from the 6th or 7th c. B.C. The spelling differences (with Etruscan) can probably be explained by the different alphabet and the phonetic evolution during several centuries of separation (the date of arrival of the Etruscan's forefathers is rather unclear: the estimates vary from the 13th to the 6th c. B.C. But they seem to have arrived after the Umbrians had already established themselves in the later Etruria: the river now called Ombrone seems to bear their name). Example: Etr. - Lemn. (probably meaning 'year(s)'). The general aspect of the language is flecting, with elements that recall (P)IE (e.g. -c, Lat. -que, Greek -te, but that could be contamination), but more similar to e.g. Lydian (-l, -s genitives), apparently with a strong initial accent and pileups of consonants. In short: like a cousin rather than a descendant of ('narrow') PIE. A few years ago, M. Carrasquer made a tentative family tree I will send you privately since this list doesn't allow it. There are also non-linguistic arguments, like the bronze liver of Piacenza, used as a model by Etruscan fortune tellers, which has N. Mesopotamian characteristics. Or the considerable Greek content of Etruscan culture. Although this isn't really an argument, I would like to add this: It is possible that the Eneid (Aeneis) is at least in part based upon the actual voyage of the Etruscans' forefathers to Italy, but that is only an educated guess. Anyway, the route is about right, and the fantasy world it depicts in places sounds like that of Jason's voyage to the Black Sea, or the Odyssee. And its source is popular Roman tradition, that speaks of a landing of a people on or near the Latium coast; Etruscan Caere (now Cerveteri) is not far from Rome, and the earliest known rulers of Rome (itself an Etruscan name: Ruma) were the Etruscan kings. So, it is entirely possible, even likely, that the Romans confounded Etruscans and Italic peoples of the earliest period covered by tradition. All this means is that probably some people from the north-eastern Mediterranean arrived in Latium or thereabout in or before the earliest days of the Roman tradition. Ed. From petegray at btinternet.com Thu Jan 4 16:23:26 2001 From: petegray at btinternet.com (petegray) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:23:26 -0000 Subject: minimal pairs Message-ID: >...Etruscans coming from Anatolia In addition to the traditions that Etruscans came from Anatolia, and Romans came from Troy, there is a tradition that the Trojans themselves originated in Italy! Iasius was the brother of Dardanus, and both were believed to have travelled from Italy to Samothrace, then to Troy, where they founded the Trojan race. You'll see a reference to it in Vergil, Aeneid 3:168. Peter From jozo.kapovic at zg.tel.hr Thu Jan 4 13:33:49 2001 From: jozo.kapovic at zg.tel.hr (=?windows-1250?Q?Mate_Kapovi=E6?=) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:33:49 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: X99Lynx at aol.com Date: 2001. siječanj 04 04:11 [Steve Long] , a call used by swineherds; , swine-collar; , a bird." Cf., Pol , hen.< Polish kura is from all-Slavic *kur7 probably meaning "rooster, cock > penis". It's probably of onomatopoeic origin, although there have been some comparisons of Slavic *kur7va (< *kur7) "whore" with that eng. word - whore, (Germ. Hüre) which is very doubtful. From X99Lynx at aol.com Thu Jan 4 15:56:29 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:56:29 EST Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro... Message-ID: In a message dated 1/3/2001 9:37:58 PM, jozo.kapovic at zg.tel.hr writes: << it's hard to believe that *kotiti seN ("to bear cub (for some animals)") a would have come from *kot7, because cats were not so (economically) important. Some contamination of the roots has almost certainly been present. >> Just a note to point out again that the "semantic" end is not one that can be handled so easily. The "importance" of the cat, as well as how that word was used to describe animals, is pretty much opaque to us. There are dozens of ways the term could have been transferred that are not within our modern understanding. It's pertinent to remember that for example the historic word "cattle" in English can be traced with some precision not to livestock, but to a legal term for personal property. Its use to describe bovines is fairly recent. If the preliterate word "cat" referred to a function of an animal or a matter of property or status or a place of origin, then we may be at a loss to know how the transfer of meaning occurred. Such uncertainty should caution our willingness to eliminate paths of development on simple semantic impressions. Regards, Steve Long From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 4 19:28:26 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:28:26 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G Kilday" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:16 AM > On 28 Dec 2000, Rick Mc Callister wrote: [snip] >> Posner also cites Sardinian kateddu "little dog, puppy" < *ket- + >> -ellu [Posner 1996: 86] > This looks like a direct reflex of Lat. , given that Sard. > -dd- from Lat. -ll- is regular. >> which suggests the possibility of >> catulus/catellus > *katlu > *katju/kakju/kacju > *kac^o > cach-orro >> although I imagine an /e/ would be expected, as in lacte- > leche > Span. -ech- regularly results from Lat. -act-, but other situations > producing Span. -ch- may leave a preceding /a/ unchanged, as from > , so *cach- <- *catlus <- is reasonable. Does anyone know > why is feminine? [Snip] > DGK [Ed Selleslagh] Just a few thoughts. Don't crucify me for it. Maybe we should write: *cacho < *catlo < catulum (acc.). The -orro goes back to the Mediterranean infix -rr-, which expresses an exaggerated quality, and is hence often augmentative/pejorative, cf. Cast. 'ventorro'. See the article "Los vocablos en -rr- de la lengua sarda. Conexiones con la península ibérica", by Mary Carmen Iribarren Argaiz, in Fontes Linguae Vasconum 76 (sept-dec 1997), pp. 335-354. Why is 'leche' feminine? In general, grammatical gender of certain classes of Spanish words (e.g.-or) is rather unstable or variable, although in the latter case different genders for the same word express different shades. Examples: -To sailors 'la mar' is feminine, to the rest of us it is masculine 'el mar'. In French 'la mer' is always feminine, and in Latin 'mare' is neuter.(Cf. 'ship' in English) -'la calor' is unbearable, but 'el calor', the normal kind, may be pleasant (in increasing order of unpleasantness: el calor, la calor, los calores, las calores, according to Spanish friends of mine, and slightly tongue-in-cheek). In French, 'la chaleur' is always feminine. Maybe 'la leche' is just the natural thing to say, isn't it ? I mean to people who speak a language that seems to treat grammatical gender rather loosely, at least historically (Maybe a Basque influence on early Castilian? Basque only distinguishes animate/inanimate). Milk is strongly linked to female mammals. In (modern) Greek they say 'thilikí' ( Message-ID: [snip] [DGK] > Does anyone know why is feminine? There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. I seem to remember Posner saying something to the extent that [in some cases] Spanish evidently derived feminine forms from the plurals while French and Italian derived masculine forms from the singulars [snip] >Giovanni Alessio briefly discusses some of these words in his review of >Hubschmid's "Mediterrane Substrate" (St. Etr. XXIX, 1961, pp. 362-79). >Alessio rejects the connection between the Sardo-Corsican dog-terms and >Basque , on phonetic grounds. He suggests might be >derived from a Ligurian form represented by Late Lat. , Ital. > 'bloodhound'. Corominas is locked up in the library for the next week or so, so I hope you don't mind me asking how and if Spanish sabueso "bloodhound" is derived from segusius. It looks possible but messy: I can see sabueso from something like *sagu"eso < *sagOso- but it gives an open /O/, rather than closed /o/ that would be expected from /u/ Or is it directly from substrate? >The vowel-alternation is parallel to Lat. : >Span. 'holm-oak'. Ligurians living near Tartessos are reported by >Steph. Byz. (s.v. Ligustine), and Thuc. (VI.2.2) says the Sicanians claimed >to be Iberians driven from the basin of the Sikanos (mod. Jucar?) by >Ligurians. Alessio thus hypothesizes that the Ligurians brought substratal >forms from the Balkans to southern Spain, whence the Iberians passed some of >them (perhaps including ) on to the Basques, giving Hubschmid and >others the false impression that Basque itself originated in the East. So Alessio proposed the Lusitanians = "IE Ligurians" = Illyrians hypothesis? By "IE Ligurians", I mean the non-Celtic, non-Italic IE speakers of N Italy & S France I've also seen claims that the Sikani themselves were Ligurians based on toponymic similarities between names in Sicily and Liguria [snip] Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From mcv at wxs.nl Wed Jan 10 02:28:34 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 03:28:34 +0100 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:30:12 -0000, "Douglas G Kilday" wrote: Sorry for the late reply, I was away for three weeks. >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (5 Dec 2000) wrote: >>As I may have mentioned here earlier, I have been investigating the >>possible ramifications of hypothesizing that not only *k/*g/*gh had >>labialized (*kw/*gw/*ghw) and palatalized (*k^/*g^/*gh^) variants, but >>that this was originally the case for *all* (pre-)PIE consonants. >>One interesting possibility is **pw, which would have mostly merged >>with *kw (for obvious reasons, a labialized labial would have been a >>highly marked phoneme), but with *p in (pre-)Germanic. >I'm not comfortable with double stars, but *pw in Early PIE which merged >with *p in Pre-Germanic and with *kw in most other dialects makes sense. Thanks for the support :-). >>This could be the case in the words "liver", "four", "-leven, -lve", >> >"oven", "wolf" and some others ("leave", "sieve", etc.). >I would add the tail-end of "five"; Goth. suggests Early PIE *pempwe. It would be a candidate, were it not that I rather like the idea of *pen-kwe "...and five" (an etymology similar to that of "ampersand"). >>I'm not too pleased with "bane", however, being from the same root as >> >*gunT- "Kampf, Schlacht", which means a putative **bhwen- (for PIE >> >*ghwen) "to kill" is out of the question. Not that it matters for >> >judging the etymology by its own merits... >I don't follow this. I meant that *if* "bane" and are from the same root, it would ruin my theory, which requires *bhw-words to be etymologically distinct from *ghw-words (and similarly *pw- and *kw-words). >In my opinion, PIE roots containing a labialized aspirate (traditional *gwh) >which becomes Gmc. *w are most easily explained by assuming that the Early >PIE root had *bhw. The phonetic realization in Early Gmc. was probably close >to [vw], and this could plausibly have been reduced to [w]. In "mainstream" >PIE, *bhw merged with *ghw. I hypothesize: > Lat. , Gk. , Skt. , OE <- *bhwermos > Lat. , , Gk. , OE <- *sneibhw- > Lat. , Gk. , ME , Ger. <- *nebhwr- >Early PIE *dhw may be represented in "deer", OE , assuming this is >connected with Lat. , Gk. . The latter has the Aeolic form > which suggests a PIE labialized aspirate, just as Aeol. >'four', 'five' have

for Attic where PIE had a labialized >stop. I would refer "deer" to *dhwer- which became *ghwer- in "mainstream" >PIE. Interesting. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From hstahlke at gw.bsu.edu Sun Jan 7 01:46:37 2001 From: hstahlke at gw.bsu.edu (Herb Stahlke) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:46:37 -0500 Subject: Meaning of ``Goth`` Message-ID: I don't know Germanic linguistics well, but could /kans/ be something Notker would have written? Herb Stahlke <<< Georg at home.ivm.de 1/ 6 8:37p >>> > By the way (displaying my ignorance here), how does OHG "kans" >appear as modern German "gans"? Did only the /d/ -> /t/ part of this shift >get fully established in standard German? It's OHG, MHG, and NHG /gans/. -- Dr. Stefan Georg Heerstra_e 7 D-53111 Bonn FRG Tel./Fax +49-228-691332 From X99Lynx at aol.com Tue Jan 9 05:27:55 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 00:27:55 EST Subject: Early Goths as Drinkers Message-ID: In a message dated 1/3/2001 7:43:25 PM, dlwhite at texas.net writes: << But since the "pour" word and the "god" word seem to be different extensions of the same root, it is difficult to tell. >> As I mentioned earlier, there is the Gothic verb 'pour out' that is at the prime basis of seeing "Goth" as stemming from a flooded area or a different kind of pouring (in the works of such as the Swedish scholar Thorsten Andersson > "both Goetar, Proto-Germanic *gautoz, and Goths, Gutar, Proto-Germanic *gutaniz, are nomina agentis based on different ablaut grades of the verb Sw. gjuta, Germ. gießen 'to pour', in the sense of 'to pour out semen'....") Because I have, perhaps for only personal reasons, problems with the Goths naming themselves either the "flood people" or the "semen people," I've tried to look again at the notion that the Gothic name is not a self-name and therefore perhaps not Germanic in origin. I have no idea how to judge how much the name itself is younger than PIE or some intermediate European proto-language. But there are some paths that might make some sense in terms of the historical and archaeological evidence. As early as there is anything involving the name or anything like it (Gotones, Gythones or even Getae), the Greeks are the primary source, of course. Looking at this "pour" idea as an origin brings up a number of different possibilities. The early Goths -- as they are understood now in the Cernjachov culture-- are associated with a good deal of metalcraft and religious practices. So perhaps there's something to "pouring" metal or burial mounds that works a little better than the ideas mentioned above. But one of the paths that's interesting are Greek words that circle around one or the other forms of the Goth name and that refer to making and drinking alcohol. was a main Greek verb for pour, taking many forms and meanings. In the passive and aorist, it actually took the form , and we also have the rather common participle, , poured. meant 'poured forth, unconfined', but was also used as 'immoderate' and as the title of a classical treatise on wine making. was poured wine. , a cupbearer. specifically meant a pouring out of liquid, drink-offering, "especially made to the dead or over their graves." Much more specific about drinking is a string of fairly early words more related to the shape and contents of the vessel than to its pour: was a Spartan drinking cup used by soldiers and made of earthenware or metal. is defined in L&S as "a deep potation", but not of wine. is defined as "make drunken" and, in the passive, as "drink hard". , inebriated. as a , a drinking-cup. as "receptacles." There is also the difficult-to-explain drinking and betting game of . Another group of words (most from at least the 3d century BC) that were apparently unrelated are also interesting: defined as "an Egyptian kind of beer, brewed with barley," but also as "the beer of northern nations." was a brewer (cf., leaven, ferment) a woman who sells beer a beer-shop a tax on beer Is there any possibility that some of these Greek words made their way northward or northeastward or vice versa or back and forth in the centuries before the "Goths" appear on the scene? Could any of this go back to an ancestor language? Were these people, later called the Goths, remembered most in the Greek consciousness or their own as notable brewers or consumers of such beverages? On the theory that the exceptional product of a land precedes knowledge of the people themselves? Who showed up to brew this "beer of the northern nations" in Greece at least by the 3d century BC? And, of course, could any of this make linguistic sense? Regards, Steve Long From sarima at friesen.net Sun Jan 7 02:37:17 2001 From: sarima at friesen.net (Stanley Friesen) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 18:37:17 -0800 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: <00ae01c07684$91938a20$a006703e@edsel> Message-ID: At 08:18 PM 1/4/01 +0100, Eduard Selleslagh wrote: >... different alphabet and the phonetic evolution during several centuries of >separation (the date of arrival of the Etruscan's forefathers is rather >unclear: the estimates vary from the 13th to the 6th c. B.C. But they seem to >have arrived after the Umbrians had already established themselves in the >later >Etruria: the river now called Ombrone seems to bear their name). Example: Etr. > - Lemn. (probably meaning 'year(s)'). Hmm, is there any other evidence for the Umbrians preceding the Etruscans in Etruria? If this is really what happened it tends to remove the main objections to the Villanova Culture being associated with Italic speakers. [It also fits with my ideas about the origin of the italic peoples: if I am right than the earlier dates for the arrival of the Etruscans would also be ruled out, leaving circa 8th to 6th c. B.C.]. -------------- May the peace of God be with you. sarima at ix.netcom.com From dlwhite at texas.net Sun Jan 7 02:54:44 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:54:44 -0600 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: It should also be noted that the words "Trojan" and "Etruscan", not to mention "Tuscan", "Tyrrhenian", and "Tursha" (an Egyptian term for "Sea Peoples", who were clearly from the Eastern Med), are quite possibly variant forms of a single word. "Tarquin" and "Tarsus" might possibly be added to the list. But we've been through this before. Does anyone out there know where in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? I have not been able to find it. Dr. David L. White From proto-language at email.msn.com Sun Jan 7 03:38:13 2001 From: proto-language at email.msn.com (proto-language) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 21:38:13 -0600 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Dear Eduard and IEists: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eduard Selleslagh" Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 1:18 PM And its source is popular Roman tradition, that speaks of a landing of a people on or near the Latium coast; Etruscan Caere (now Cerveteri) is not far from Rome, and the earliest known rulers of Rome (itself an Etruscan name: Ruma) were the Etruscan kings. So, it is entirely possible, even likely, that the Romans confounded Etruscans and Italic peoples of the earliest period covered by tradition. [PR] Could you tell me the source for the opinion that Roma is derived from Etruscan Ruma? And what is it supposed to mean? Pat PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE at email.msn.com (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindga meipi a netr allar nmo, geiri vnda~r . . . a ~eim mei~i, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rstom renn." (Havamal 138) From colkitto at sprint.ca Sun Jan 7 15:59:44 2001 From: colkitto at sprint.ca (Robert Orr) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:59:44 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Georgiev has a chapter on this topic in his An Introduction to the History of the Indo-European Languages. Sofia: Bulgarian Academy of Sciences. (1981). My own knowledge of ths topic is rather weak. Any comments on Georgiev's proposals (which do look quite solid)? ----Original Message----- From: Eduard Selleslagh To: Indo-European Mailing List Date: Saturday, January 06, 2001 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) [ moderator snip ] [Ed Selleslagh] I thought this was something of majority view. Of course, final proof is hard to get by, and one should keep an open mind. I'll give you some arguments, but I don't intend to start a new thread on this. [ moderator snip ] From stevegus at aye.net Sun Jan 7 21:40:53 2001 From: stevegus at aye.net (Steve Gustafson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:40:53 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Ed Selleslagh wrote: <> There are a number of things about Etruscan that suggest some kind of relationship to PIE. There seems to be some kind of inherited pattern of ablaut in several lexical items in Etruscan: e.g. nom. clan, gen. clens, dat. clensi, nom. pl. clenar, "son." The noun endings themselves (-s genitive, -si dative, -ar [from *-az or *-ans?] plural) seem to strongly resemble what has happened in other IE languages. A locative case or derived adjective predictably ends in -ti or -thi. Etruscan feminines typically end in -i or -a, resembling the two thematic feminine types in Sanskrit. (Uni, Ati, Menrva, Klutmsta) Some pronouns: 1st sing. nom. mi, acc. mini. 3d sing an (he, she), in (it). "This" is ita or eta; also ica or eca. Accusatives of these add -n. Adjectives derived from nouns usually add -iu or -(e)na; e.g. the family name of Lars Porsena, and such Etruscan-Latin names as Furius. Verbs show an apparently consistent past in -ce: turce (he, she, it gave); svalce (he, she, it lived). A possible sigmatic aorist? especially since some historians of Romance have blamed the palatalisation of Latin 'c' on the Etruscans. Imperatives show either a naked stem (tur!) or the ending -thi. The numerals, as is well known, hardly look IE, but you do have: 7 semph, and 9 nurph. 7 *sep-, *seb- seems to be common Mediterranean as well as IE. I have wondered about whether the Etruscans are somehow related to the proto-Germans. Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. These names also make you wonder whether their script was somehow inadequately supplied with vowels, or made heavy use of abbreviated forms. Much of Etruscan inflection and derivation, in so far as we can figure it out at this remove, looks like a well-worn IE language of relatively recent date. So do most of their pronouns and particles. It's the Etruscan vocabulary that no one has yet been able to figure. -- We will walk into the snow, and we will keep walking, until we reach the grey horizon. Ceterum censeo sedem Romanam esse delendam. From X99Lynx at aol.com Tue Jan 9 15:35:58 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:35:58 EST Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: In a message dated 1/6/2001 9:22:03 PM, edsel at glo.be writes: << the date of arrival of the Etruscan's forefathers is rather unclear: the estimates vary from the 13th to the 6th c. B.C.>> Archaeologically, it seems that it is difficult to distinguish Etruscans in terms of the surrounding Villanovan culture before the early 8th century. Beginning at that time certain distinctive features -- many of them Asian -- begin to emerge that will mark Etruscan culture in later centuries, including their unique grid-like urban system. As far as consensus goes, most historians would probably agree that "the Etruscans as we know them represent a combination of elements from Asia Minor and local Villanovan, with a strong infusion of Greek culture for good measure." Long before the Lemnos inscription, of course, Herodotus had told us that the Etruscans came from Lydia. Regards, Steve Long From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sun Jan 7 01:57:08 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:57:08 -0500 Subject: dulcis/lac? In-Reply-To: <3A53FF15.678B05B9@pobox.com> Message-ID: I noticed that Buck [among others] suggests Latin dulcis & Greek gluku/s < *dluk- I'm wondering if there's any possibility of Latin lac, lact- & Greek gala, galakt- < *dlak- I've also seen Latin loquor linked to [something like] Gaelic tlu-, and English talk thanx Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From dlwhite at texas.net Sun Jan 7 06:55:32 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 00:55:32 -0600 Subject: IE 'wolf' Message-ID: With regard to the 'wolf' thing a while back, where it was stated that Latin "lupus" is borrowed from a /p/-dialect of Italic, Germanic "wolf" and so on appear to be the expected Germanic cognates of Latin, "vulpes". If this is so, then unless I am missing something (a very real possibility), the /-p/ here is original, as Germanic /kw/ does not (to my knowledge) change into either /p/ before the shift or /f/ after it. It is generally recognized (I think) that Latin "lupus" and "vulpes" are tabu variants of the same word. That the original ordering was /wl/ rather than /lu/ is suggested by Sanskrit "vrka-" and Lithuanian (if memory serves) "vlka-", which almost have to be the same word as Greek "luko-". So it would seem then that both 1) the ordering of /l/ and /w-u/ and 2) the choice of /p/ or /kw/ as the final C were subject to variation that is the result of tabu deformation, not sound change. Unless it can be shown that forms with /kw/ clearly did come down into Latin, or that /p/ in such positions was, like /f/ in "bufo", not the regular development, there is, as far as I can see, little reason to insist that the Latin forms were borrowed from /p/-Italic. I say all this with very little confidence: correct me if I am wrong. Dr. David L. White From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sun Jan 7 20:11:16 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:11:16 -0500 Subject: cat < ? In-Reply-To: <3A53FF15.678B05B9@pobox.com> Message-ID: cat seems to be one of the most problematic of all animal names Corominas says cattus "wildcat" was first documented in late Latin 4th c. and springs from an unknown source [Corominas 1980] Buck (1949: 182) goes back to Greek káttos, kátta, gáttos from an unknown source He also gives Latvian kak'is, kak'e "cat" [Buck 1949: 182] Entwistle (1936: 40-41) derives it from Gaulish cattu Gamkrelidze & Ivanov (1995: 515) (English trans.) offer Indo-European *khath "cat", possibly from Nubian kadi:s G & I also list Arabic kitt, Aramaic katta, Georgian katla, Laz k'at'u, Kabardian gedu, Dido gedu, Avar keto, Turkish kedi [Gamkrelidze & Ivanov 1995: 515] General lore has domestic cats originating in North Africa; but wildcats are almost universal. So is IE *khath "cat" plausible? My problem is that the cat words all look too much alike. I'm trying to imagine how a Nubian word would have made it into early IE. Is the ancient Berber/Libyan word known? Egyptian was something like miu, wasn't it? If it's from Gaulish; could it be derived from catu- "fighter"? -I remenber seeing a similar sounding word meaning "stealthy" or whatnot. Both of these describe tomcats pretty well. Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From X99Lynx at aol.com Mon Jan 8 07:08:15 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 02:08:15 EST Subject: Anthony as Greek? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/6/2001 7:56:06 PM, BMScott at stratos.net writes: << Roman (as distinct from medieval) and its derivatives rather consistently appear with , not the that one would expect in a borrowing of Gk .>> But that may be a function of how early the name entered Latin. Early names that show Greek origins do not necessarily observe the later Roman respect for Greek spellings, e.g., the volcanic from the Gr 'burning', but see the Latin for later imported names from Classical Greek mythology. Other examples might include Latin a word for the ancient custom of placing images near the doorway of homes, from the Gr ; Latin , incense, from the Gr ; and even possibly a name for the Etruscans themselves, which is also attested as . One of the things it is easy to forget is that the Greeks were in contact with both Rome and the Etruscans at an extremely early date. A major Greek colony near Naples, Pithekoussai, was founded about 750 BC. And among the earliest "Roman" burials on Esquiline hill, numbers of Corinthian "olpe" urns have been found, including one that is inscribed with apparently the Greek name "Ktektos" dating from about 725BC. Such contact precedes by many centuries the first appearance of the name Anthony. Whether through the Etruscans or directly, there is clear evidence that the Greeks were there not long after the iron age started and had a considerable technical and cultural influence on the region before we have any evidence of Latin literacy. , the present participle of , flourishing, blossoming, bright, etc. (or perhaps just flower growering) could have entered Latin early enough to have been adapted to the Latin sound preferences, and before the Romans had become careful about their borrowings from Greek. The absence of a clear alternative origin might suggest that a Greek origin shouldn't be dismissed too confidently on the basis of /t/ versus /th/ distinction that early Romans did not always observe well themselves. (Cf., ) <, both with <'Anto:-> >> Would it be expected that the Greeks would recovert a family name back to a Greek pronunciation or written form once it became an established centuries-old Roman name? It would be like the French translating back an English family name like Williams into its French original. This would be unusual in any circumstance, but especially in the case of imperial Romans names. Regards, Steve Long From colkitto at sprint.ca Sun Jan 7 14:04:27 2001 From: colkitto at sprint.ca (Robert Orr) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:04:27 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro... Message-ID: >The word shchenit'sja means 'to bear cub; to cub, to whelp' in Russian >(shchenok 'dog cub'), >and Russian kotit'sja means 'to bear kitten (about cats) or other youngling >(about small carnivorous mammal - ferret etc)'. >It is a general model for creation of words that mean 'to bear younglings'. >The Russian telit'sja means 'to bear calve (of cattle, deer etc.)' >(telionok 'calf'), >zherebit'sja 'to bear colt' (zherebenok 'colt'), >yagnit'sja 'to bear lamb' (yagnionok 'lamb')... >The were wild cats (Felis silvestris) in East European forests. And there still are in the Scottish Highlands Robert Orr From petegray at btinternet.com Sun Jan 7 16:20:10 2001 From: petegray at btinternet.com (petegray) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:20:10 -0000 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: > There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & > Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. I seem to remember Posner > saying something to the extent that [in some cases] Spanish evidently > derived feminine forms from the plurals while French and Italian derived > masculine forms from the singulars My copy of Posner's The Romance Languages has a mention of la leche on page 135, but no discussion of this process of origin. She does, however, mention that some Latin neuters "hesitated in gender" even within Latin - and this is probably the origin of divergent outcomes. Peter From dalazal at hotmail.com Thu Jan 11 01:38:40 2001 From: dalazal at hotmail.com (Diogo Almeida) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:38:40 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: >From: Rick Mc Callister >Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:41:17 -0500 >[DGK] > > Does anyone know why is feminine? > > There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & >Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. But "leite" (portuguese for "leche") is masculine ("o leite"), and I'm pretty sure that it is masculine both in Brazilian and European Portuguese. From bronto at pobox.com Sun Jan 7 02:22:38 2001 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 18:22:38 -0800 Subject: The sun never sets ... Message-ID: JohnYY wrote: > We are discussing the linguistics of a mythic locale - I believe > that Bombay is no more, having been replaced officially by something > like "Mumbai". In that case I'll settle for an old map! ;) -- Anton Sherwood -- br0nt0 at p0b0x.com -- http://ogre.nu/ From douglas at nb.net Wed Jan 10 22:42:10 2001 From: douglas at nb.net (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:42:10 -0500 Subject: Etruscans In-Reply-To: <000b01c07855$31861d00$226163d1@texas.net> Message-ID: > Does anyone out there know where in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? >I have not been able to find it. A tangential reference, I think, Aeneid 8.454: "Haec pater Aeoliis properat dum Lemnius oris, ..." -- Doug Wilson From ipse at hevanet.com Thu Jan 11 01:36:43 2001 From: ipse at hevanet.com (ipse) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:36:43 -0800 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David L. White" Subject: Re: Etruscans > Does anyone out there know where > in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? Aeneid VIII. 454 Haec pater Aeoliis properat dum Lemnius oris, is the only verse which contains the stem 'Lemn-'. David Jensen From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 11 11:23:37 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:23:37 +0100 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David L. White" Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:54 AM > It should also be noted that the words "Trojan" and "Etruscan", not > to mention "Tuscan", "Tyrrhenian", and "Tursha" (an Egyptian term for "Sea > Peoples", who were clearly from the Eastern Med), are quite possibly variant > forms of a single word. "Tarquin" and "Tarsus" might possibly be added to > the list. But we've been through this before. > Does anyone out there know where in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? > I have not been able to find it. > > Dr. David L. White [Ed] As far as I remember, it isn't, although it may be hidden under some mythical place's name. Note that this is not necessary, if Aeneas belonged to another group that sailed to other places. From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 11 02:05:34 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:05:34 -0600 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: > Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible > brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek > words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, > Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. Also "Aplu". But are these names really Greek, in the sense of having IE etymologies? I have heard that of the Greek gods only Zeus is IE. Perhaps we have (in some cases) not mangling but borrowing from a common source. Dr. David L. White From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 11 11:00:28 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:00:28 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanley Friesen" Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:37 AM > At 08:18 PM 1/4/01 +0100, Eduard Selleslagh wrote: >> ... different alphabet and the phonetic evolution during several centuries >> of separation (the date of arrival of the Etruscan's forefathers is rather >> unclear: the estimates vary from the 13th to the 6th c. B.C. But they seem >> to have arrived after the Umbrians had already established themselves in the >> later Etruria: the river now called Ombrone seems to bear their name). >> Example: Etr. - Lemn. (probably meaning 'year(s)'). > Hmm, is there any other evidence for the Umbrians preceding the Etruscans > in Etruria? If this is really what happened it tends to remove the main > objections to the Villanova Culture being associated with Italic speakers. > [It also fits with my ideas about the origin of the italic peoples: if I am > right than the earlier dates for the arrival of the Etruscans would also be > ruled out, leaving circa 8th to 6th c. B.C.]. [Ed] Note that I wrote "it SEEMS..". I am not aware of other arguments. As a non-specialist, I am a bit surprised by your late date for the arrival of the Umbrians (P-Italic). From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 11 11:31:23 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:31:23 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 4:59 PM > Georgiev has a chapter on this topic in his An Introduction to the History of > the Indo-European Languages. Sofia: Bulgarian Academy of Sciences. (1981). > My own knowledge of this topic is rather weak. Any comments on Georgiev's > proposals (which do look quite solid)? [Ed] I haven't read that. Actually I have abandoned the field (of Etruscan) years ago for the ancient non-IE languages of the Iberian peninsula. From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 11 11:07:55 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:07:55 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "proto-language" Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 4:38 AM [ moderator snip ] > [PR] > Could you tell me the source for the opinion that Roma is derived from > Etruscan Ruma? And what is it supposed to mean? > Pat [Ed] I read it in Heurgeon and maybe somewhere in Dumézil. Actually they mention meaning 'from Rome, Roman', cf. Anatolian , 'from Sardes'. Apparently the meaning is unknown, but that opinion is possibly dated. From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Thu Jan 11 20:43:55 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:43:55 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: <009401c078f2$839e9200$1fc407c6@oemcomputer> Message-ID: [snip] Looking at Adolfo Zavaroni's etymologies of words of putative IE origin in Etruscan, you could easily come to that conclusion. Etruscan seems to have stressed the first syllable and given secondary stress to the 3rd syllable. It had /a, e, i, u/ in alphabet but I'd guess that probably/possibly had a schwa. It also seems to have often aspirated and/or fricativized stops /p/ > /ph, f/ > /h/; /k/ > /kh, x/ > /h/ --at least in its later stages. I'd like to see some sort of chronology regarding aspiration/friciativization or if it was just a case of better writing conventions >I have wondered about whether the Etruscans are somehow related to the >proto-Germans. Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible >brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek >words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, >Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. These names also >make you wonder whether their script was somehow inadequately supplied with >vowels, or made heavy use of abbreviated forms. >Much of Etruscan inflection and derivation, in so far as we can figure it >out at this remove, looks like a well-worn IE language of relatively recent >date. So do most of their pronouns and particles. It's the Etruscan >vocabulary that no one has yet been able to figure. [ moderator snip ] Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From dlwhite at texas.net Wed Jan 10 23:04:55 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:04:55 -0600 Subject: Early Goths as Drinkers Message-ID: > As I mentioned earlier, there is the Gothic verb 'pour out' that > is at the prime basis of seeing "Goth" as stemming from a flooded area or a > different kind of pouring (in the works of such as the Swedish scholar > Thorsten Andersson > "both Goetar, Proto-Germanic *gautoz, and Goths, Gutar, > Proto-Germanic *gutaniz, are nomina agentis based on different ablaut grades > of the verb Sw. gjuta, Germ. gießen 'to pour', in the sense of 'to pour out > semen'....") That is more or less what I was suggesting earlier. > Because I have, perhaps for only personal reasons, problems with the Goths > naming themselves either the "flood people" or the "semen people," I've > tried to look again at the notion that the Gothic name is not a self-name and > therefore perhaps not Germanic in origin It could be an "other-name" (if that is the opposite of "self-name") from other Germans. If "pour" had in some dialects come to mean 'drink' (perhaps jocularly in the beginning, and/or end), then I suppose it's conceivable that the name meant "drunks" or "drinkers", though I wouldn't bet on it. Dr. David L. White From connolly at memphis.edu Wed Jan 10 22:26:38 2001 From: connolly at memphis.edu (Leo A. Connolly) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:26:38 +0000 Subject: Meaning of ``Goth`` Message-ID: Herb Stahlke wrote: > I don't know Germanic linguistics well, but could /kans/ be > something Notker would have written? > Herb Stahlke > <<< Georg at home.ivm.de 1/ 6 8:37p >>> >> By the way (displaying my ignorance here), how does OHG "kans" appear as >> modern German "gans"? Did only the /d/ -> /t/ part of this shift get fully >> established in standard German? Stefan Georg replied: > It's OHG, MHG, and NHG /gans/. True enough. But initial /g/ is often written or the Bavarian and Alemannic dialects of OHG. In fact, 19th century linguists seemed to regard this as the "proper" development -- they called it "strengalthochdeutsch". In the systems of these dialects, Gmc. /k-/ had become affricate [kx-], usually written or . Gmc. /g/ was the only other velar stop, and in initial position was surely voiceless all or most of the time and, apparently, sometimes fortis [k], to judge from modern Swiss dialects. Notker would have written at the start of a sentence, or if the preceding word ended with an obstruent, apparently indicating the fortis [k]. He wrote after vowels, nasals, and resonants. This is part of the famous Notker'sche Anlautsgesetz. Initial [kx] is now preserved only in certain Austrian dialects; most Alemannic, Bavarian and Austrian dialects have restored [kh], while Swiss dialects have [x]. Gmc. /t/ appears as in OHG, /d/ as in Alemannic, Bavarian, and East Franconian (and in the modern standard language), and /T/ appears as /d/, which Notker writes after obstruents. begin:vcard n:Connolly;Leo A. tel;fax:901-678-5338 tel;work:901-362-9178 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:connolly at memphis.edu x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Leo A. Connolly end:vcard From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 11 03:28:41 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:28:41 -0600 Subject: High German /k/ for /g/ Message-ID: >> By the way (displaying my ignorance here), how does OHG "kans" appear as >> modern German "gans"? Did only the /d/ -> /t/ part of this shift get fully >> established in standard German? > It's OHG, MHG, and NHG /gans/. > -- Upon examination ... Old High German is a rather diverse group of dialects, and in early Allemanic and Bavarian, initial "k" corresponding to modern English and German /g/ is more or less regular, or at least predominant. Dr. David L. White From sonno3 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 11 01:26:24 2001 From: sonno3 at hotmail.com (Christopher Gwinn) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:26:24 -0500 Subject: IE 'wolf' Message-ID: > With regard to the 'wolf' thing a while back, where it was stated > that Latin "lupus" is borrowed from a /p/-dialect of Italic, Germanic "wolf" > and so on appear to be the expected Germanic cognates of Latin, "vulpes". > If this is so, then unless I am missing something (a very real possibility), > the /-p/ here is original, as Germanic /kw/ does not (to my knowledge) > change into either /p/ before the shift or /f/ after it. What are to make of Gaulish Louernios (*loup-ern-io), "fox," which may stem from the same root as Indic lopasa, Avestan raopi ? These words are related to Latin lupus in Pokorny. -Chris Gwinn From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 11 01:59:59 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:59:59 -0600 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: > My problem is that the cat words all look too much alike. That is probably because they are all fairly recent loan-words. I seem to recall that (apart from /miu/), there are only two cat-words in general use in European languages, which might be called the /k-/ word and the /p-/word (both of these exist in English). However, though Welsh has /cath/, Irish has (as I recall, I have no decent dictionary here) some version of the /p-/ word, so we cannot even reconstruct a Common Celtic word for 'cat'. The fact(?) that Irish has a /p-/ word for 'cat' of course means that the word cannot be old there. Dr. David L. White From X99Lynx at aol.com Thu Jan 11 07:00:53 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 02:00:53 EST Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/10/2001 7:24:36 PM, rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu writes: << Corominas says cattus "wildcat" was first documented in late Latin 4th c. and springs from an unknown source [Corominas 1980] Buck (1949: 182) goes back to Greek káttos, kátta, gáttos from an unknown source>> The earlier term for cats in Greek was or . Herodotus describes them in Egypt in a way that seems to indicate that domestic cats were not very familiar to his readers. Aristophanes mentions cats as part of a grabbag of wild game that is to be eaten. might be some kind of a contraction, + , guardian. Or a compound, , ship watcher. (A study in the '70's showed that the spread of the currently dominant feral breed of domestic cat, the blotched tabby, can be traced back to European sea port towns. Associating cats with ships might be the first impression - especially since they served the purpose of protecting grain cargoes against mice and rats.) is also a word in Greek refering to Egyptian desert country and the Libyan desert wildcat is very closely related to the European domestic cat. also brings up the Lynx and , a kind of amber, the word derived by both Latins and Greeks "from lunx, ouron, and supposed to be the coagulated urine of the lynx." Finally there is wailing, cry of anguish. (Cf., Latin , cat; weeping; , to neigh as a horse does). , the original Latin word for domestic cat, is often derived from , referring either to the fecundity of cats or to the good effect they have on preserving growing things and grains against rodents and birds. Lidell-Scott give the first citation of for cat as Aristophanes, but this is ambiguous and may be too early. appears in Greek as rooster, horse and two varieties of fish. may have been a rooster. refers in general to ferrets, martens, polecats and weasels. The lynx is the main wildcat in the Greek world, drawing the chariot of Bacchus and such. In Latin, it is the ferret that gets the job of mouser by name, or , indicating maybe that cats were not that common early on. One possibility, though slightly distasteful to a cat appreciator like myself, is that the cat got its name from the use of its parts. Gr , Att. , to sew, to stitch together like a shoemaker. , a piece of leather (or animal skin.) , stretch, draw tigth, especially a cord or strip of animal skin. Perhaps this is somehow the source of "catgut", for which I haven't seen a decent explanation. (Attested is a Persian or Babylonian fur prepared from mouse skins, or , so anything was possible.) <> Genetically, many domestic cat shows very close ties to the North African breed. (O'Brien, S. J.: Molecular genetics in the domestic cat and its relatives. Trends Genet. 2: 137-142, 1986. Masuda, R., Lopez, J. V., Pecon Slattery, J., Yuhki, N., and O'Brien, S. J.: Molecular phylogeny of mitochondrial cytochrome b and 12S rRNA sequences in the Felidae: Ocelot and domestic cat lineages. Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 6: 351-365, 1996.) A Gaulish origin seems unlikely. But all of the languages cited above could have been influenced by the Hellenistic Greeks. Regards, Steve Long From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 11 01:51:35 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:51:35 -0600 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro... Message-ID: >> The were wild cats (Felis silvestris) in East European forests. > And there still are in the Scottish Highlands Not that it matters ... The extinction of European wild cats anywhere in Europe is (I think) fairly recent. Except for having shorter tails, they are very close to African Wild cats anyway. Dr. David L. White From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 11 11:20:19 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:20:19 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:04 PM [snip] >> The were wild cats (Felis silvestris) in East European forests. > And there still are in the Scottish Highlands > Robert Orr [Ed] And in S. Belgium, but they are virtually extinct there. From connolly at memphis.edu Wed Jan 10 22:35:39 2001 From: connolly at memphis.edu (Leo A. Connolly) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:35:39 +0000 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: Diogo Almeida wrote: >> From: Rick Mc Callister >> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:41:17 -0500 >> [DGK] >>> Does anyone know why is feminine? >> There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & >> Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. > But "leite" (portuguese for "leche") is masculine ("o leite"), and I'm > pretty sure that it is masculine both in Brazilian and European Portuguese. The larger question is why we have _leche_ (as well as It. _latte_, Fr. _lait_ when there was no **_lactem_ so long as the word was neuter. But if _lactem_ developed, then gender reassignment would be a must, and formally there would have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. Why shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, it's the masculine forms that need explaining. begin:vcard n:Connolly;Leo A. tel;fax:901-678-5338 tel;work:901-362-9178 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:connolly at memphis.edu x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Leo A. Connolly end:vcard From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Thu Jan 11 20:25:50 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:25:50 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're right. Please excuse that brain fart. The "odd-ball" feminine forms exist in Spanish and include la leche, la flor, la sangre and a few others --I seem to remember seeing a list of about a dozen or so. I thought it was Posner who linked the treatment of neuters in Romance to singular and plural forms. Does anyone where that idea came from? And more importantly, if it's really valid? Besides having nuanced gendered doublets such as "la mar, el mar", "el charco, la charca", Spanish has a few regional differences in terms of gender with such words as "el calor, la calor", "el sarte/n, la sarte/n", "el di/namo, la dinamo" (I've only seen and heard the feminine variety without an accent). How common is this phenomenon in other Romance languages and other other languages with grammatical gender? >>[DGK] >>> Does anyone know why is feminine? >> There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & >> Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. >But "leite" (portuguese for "leche") is masculine ("o leite"), and I'm >pretty sure that it is masculine both in Brazilian and European Portuguese. Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From r.piva at swissonline.ch Fri Jan 12 19:45:59 2001 From: r.piva at swissonline.ch (Renato Piva) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:45:59 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: Diogo Almeida schrieb: >> From: Rick Mc Callister >> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:41:17 -0500 >> [DGK] >>> Does anyone know why is feminine? >> There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & >> Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. The word for milk was feminine in my dialect (Venetian terraferma, province of Vicenza, Italy) at least until two generations ago. My grandmother (born 1899) used to say 'la late', but I say 'el late', and so says my mother/her daughter. I don' t know what dialectal forms may be found in the Atlas of the Italian dialects by Jaberg & Jud, as I have no access to the University library for the moment. But I'm sure that the situation in Italy is (or once was) a bit more complicated than it seems as compared with the simple statement that 'latin neutra became masculine in Italian'. I too would tend to maintain, as has already been pointed out in this discussion, that the gender was influenced by the fact that it is always the female that gives milk. But in the special case of Venetian terraferma one should also take into consideration that there was some influence from German for some time, which I think hasn't been studied toroughly enough, yet. And in German, 'Milch' is of feminine gender. Regards, Renato Piva From evenstar at mail.utexas.edu Fri Jan 12 21:39:08 2001 From: evenstar at mail.utexas.edu (Shilpi Misty Bhadra) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:39:08 -0600 Subject: Calcutta/Kolkatta In-Reply-To: <3A57D2EE.CF89D0D0@pobox.com> Message-ID: At 06:22 PM 1/6/01 -0800, you wrote: >JohnYY wrote: >> We are discussing the linguistics of a mythic locale - I believe >> that Bombay is no more, having been replaced officially by something >> like "Mumbai". >In that case I'll settle for an old map! ;) >Anton Sherwood -- br0nt0 at p0b0x.com -- http://ogre.nu/ Calcutta is now Kolkatta in the latest Indian news. Mumbai has been around for a long time, as Chennai for Madras. The early Brits had a hard time with pronouncing Indian names, although they didn't to have much trouble with Delhi (which hasn't changed). ;) My family is from Calcutta/Kolkatta. My mother's maiden name was Basu, but changed to Bose, because it would be easier for the Brits to pronounce. But she hasn't changed her maiden name spelling ... yet! ;) Shilpi Misty Bhadra University of Texas at Austin Ancient History, Classics, and Humanities (focus: Indo-European Studies) senior undergraduate evenstar at mail.utexas.edu 512-320-0229 (ph) 512-476-3367 (fax) From stevegus at aye.net Fri Jan 12 22:57:40 2001 From: stevegus at aye.net (Steve Gustafson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:57:40 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Dr. David L. White wrote: >> Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible >> brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek >> words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, >> Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. > Also "Aplu". But are these names really Greek, in the sense of > having IE etymologies? I have heard that of the Greek gods only Zeus is IE. > Perhaps we have (in some cases) not mangling but borrowing from a common > source. I don't have a classical dictionary handy right here, but yes, most of the Greek names on the list have specifically Greek etymologies. This is what I remember: Hera-kles is "fame [kle(w)os] of Hera." Klytaimnestra also contains the klut- root, here meaning "famous for," but I forget what. "Polydeuces" means "very sweet," and exists as a separate word in Greek with that meaning. (poly + deukos < gleukos). Dio-medes means "protected by Zeus." Mene-laos means "confronting the people." I am not sure if anyone has fathomed an IE etymology for Apollo. There are a number of other deities whose etymology, IIRC, is unknown (Poseidon) or whose Greek etymology is considered dubious or after-the-fact (Aphrodite). There was, of course, a substantial Greek presence in Italy during the years before the rise of Rome as a major power. And, as noted, the Etruscans seem to have some connections on Lemnos and perhaps Asia Minor. While I can imagine widely different cultures inheriting deity names (Tyr/Zeus &c.), it is a bit hard for me to imagine that the Etruscans would have somehow inherited the House of Atreus and Trojan War story cycles from a common source they shared with the Greeks. -- We will walk into the snow, and we will keep walking, until we reach the grey horizon. Ceterum censeo sedem Romanam esse delendam. From sonno3 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 12 23:26:44 2001 From: sonno3 at hotmail.com (Christopher Gwinn) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:26:44 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: > Also "Aplu". But are these names really Greek, in the sense of > having IE etymologies? I have heard that of the Greek gods only Zeus is IE. I wouldn't go that far - surely we have a few more like: Pan (Archaic Paon) from PIE *Pausonos "nourisher" (the equivalent of Vedic Pusan) Thygater Dios (epithet of dawn goddess) from PIE *dhugHter diuos "daughter of the sky" (=Lithuanian Dievo Dukte, Indic Duhita Divah) Erynys may represent PIE *sereniuHs "speedy/quick one?" (= Vedic Saranyu). There are others which have PIE etymologies, but no assured direct linguistic matches to gods from other IE groups: Hera (*yer- "season/year") Poseidon (*poti-da-on- "husband of Da (mater)") Dionysos (*diwo-nus-os "nursling of Dyeus") Hades (*sam-wid- "reuniter") Ares, Hephaistos, Artemis and Apollo are usually taken as loans. (Artemis and Apollo perhaps are Anatolian) -Chris Gwinn From sarima at friesen.net Sat Jan 13 01:45:38 2001 From: sarima at friesen.net (Stanley Friesen) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:45:38 -0800 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: <00be01c07bc2$0d393a20$2606703e@edsel> Message-ID: At 12:00 PM 1/11/01 +0100, Eduard Selleslagh wrote: >> Hmm, is there any other evidence for the Umbrians preceding the Etruscans >> in Etruria? If this is really what happened it tends to remove the main >> objections to the Villanova Culture being associated with Italic speakers. >> [It also fits with my ideas about the origin of the italic peoples: if I am >> right than the earlier dates for the arrival of the Etruscans would also be >> ruled out, leaving circa 8th to 6th c. B.C.]. >[Ed] >Note that I wrote "it SEEMS..". I am not aware of other arguments. >As a non-specialist, I am a bit surprised by your late date for the arrival of >the Umbrians (P-Italic). I am tentatively using a model that derives the Italics as a whole from the southern portion of the Urnfield Complex, perhaps in two or three waves. This seems to me the best bet for the arrival of a "western" IE language in Italia. Most of the earlier candidates have various problems, to my way of thinking. Thus the various Italic groups would arrive circa 9th century B.C. in my model. This also fits with the general tendency of tribal groups to move into prime territories during "dark ages" such as the one following the near simultaneous fall of Mykenean Greece, the Hittite Empire, and the empires of the fertile crescent - in the 11th c. B.C. -------------- May the peace of God be with you. sarima at ix.netcom.com From stevegus at aye.net Sat Jan 13 02:41:55 2001 From: stevegus at aye.net (Steve Gustafson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:41:55 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Rick McCallister wrote: > I'd like to see some sort of chronology regarding > aspiration/friciativization or if it was just a case of better writing > conventions The example Diomedes > Zimite suggests that these changes were present in pre-Roman times, though I don't have a date for the inscription in which Zimite appears. Since Etruscan seems to have had an unwritten schwa, or at least syllabic nasals and liquids (spellings like Clutmsta leave little option otherwise) it may be that "Zimite" represents something like /(d?)zi: m. i te/, with something like syllabic /m./ as the second syllable, preserving the four syllables of the borrowed Greek word. Like in Coptic, they may have written the syllabic liquids and nasals without a vowel. According to Sihler's Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin, assibilization of T and D is attested by the 3d century A.D. in spellings like "Marsianenses." for "Martianenses." -- We will walk into the snow, and we will keep walking, until we reach the grey horizon. Ceterum censeo sedem Romanam esse delendam. From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sat Jan 13 19:09:05 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:09:05 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: <001701c07b73$07f005c0$e86663d1@texas.net> Message-ID: A very good question Adolfo Zavaroni posits that Etruscan mangling of Greek names and places is at least partially due to folk etymology In books on Greek myth, I've seen a wide gamut of possible origins for names appearing in Greek myth. To give an example, Robert Graves linked almost every Greek deity and mythic character to Greek. Off the top of my head, he, and many other general writers linked Apollo to a word meaning "to destroy"; while Steven Zimmer, in Markey & Greppin [1990: 311 ff] offers the following Pelasgian, non Greek IE of Greece and Balkans Uranos "rainer" [Greek], see OI vars- Kronos, probably Pelasgian corresponding to Greek géron; relationship to khrónos is folk etymology Zeus "bright, daylight sky" see OL Dyaus, Latin dius Hera pre-IE Athene pre-IE Aphrodite pre-IE Hermes pre Greek Apollo pre-IE Anatolian; see Lydian PLdans, Hittite Ap-pa-li-u-na-as^, Luwian Apulunas Artemis < ? "bear goddess"; see Lydian Artimus^, ArtimuL, Artimu-k Dionysus < ? Thracian "Son of Zeus" Poseidon < Poteidáwon "Lord, Husband of the Earth" < ? Pelasgian Ares < arê: < pre-IE Hephaistos pre-Greek, probably pre-IE Demeter "Earth Mother" < ? Messapic, see Messapic damatura [321-22] I suspect that Graves's etymologies are amateurish but I plead the 5th, on the grounds that any testimony I may give may reveal my ignorance :> But I'd like to hear from those in the know >> Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible >> brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek >> words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, >> Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. > Also "Aplu". But are these names really Greek, in the sense of >having IE etymologies? I have heard that of the Greek gods only Zeus is IE. >Perhaps we have (in some cases) not mangling but borrowing from a common >source. > >Dr. David L. White Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From acnasvers at hotmail.com Sun Jan 14 03:21:09 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 03:21:09 -0000 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: >> [ Moderator's note: >> The hypothesis that the Etruscans may have originated in Anatolia appears >> to be supported by the presence on the island of Lemnos of a stele >> inscribed in a language clearly related to but differing from the Etruscan >> of Italy. >> --rma ] >[Ed Selleslagh] >I thought this was something of majority view. Of course, final proof is hard >to get by, and one should keep an open mind. I'll give you some arguments, but >I don't intend to start a new thread on this. >The moderator's note is indeed the main argument. The stele found near Kaminia >on Lemnos (by G. Cousin and F. D|rrbach in 1885) dates from the 6th or 7th c. >B.C. The spelling differences (with Etruscan) can probably be explained by the >different alphabet and the phonetic evolution during several centuries of >separation (the date of arrival of the Etruscan's forefathers is rather >unclear: the estimates vary from the 13th to the 6th c. B.C. But they seem to >have arrived after the Umbrians had already established themselves in the >later Etruria: the river now called Ombrone seems to bear their name). >Example: Etr. - Lemn. (probably meaning 'year(s)'). Examination of the Lemnian stele does not favor the hypothesis of Etruscan emigration from Anatolia. The alphabet of the stele and similar minor inscriptions found on Lemnos belongs to the Euboico-Chalcidian family, not directly related to the Phrygian alphabet used in NW Anatolia and Gordium, and out of place among the East Ionian and Cycladic alphabets typical of the Aegean. Features include the Lemnian use of the zigzag sign as a sibilant (not a vowel as in Phrygian), the fricative value of H (vocalic in East Ionian), the psi-shaped chi (X-shaped in Cycladic and EI), and the existence of vau (digamma, already extinct in EI). The Lemnian alphabet is clearly an intrusion from the West. Indeed it is difficult to derive this alphabet directly from Euboea without going through the Chalcidian models of Greek communities in Italy. For details see Carlo de Simone, "I Tirreni a Lemnos: l'alfabeto" in Studi Etruschi LX, 1994, pp. 145-63. The stele contains the phrase which is plausibly 'grandson of Holaie'; Lemn. Holaie = Hylaeus (A. Trombetti, "La lingua etrusca", Firenze 1928, pp. 188-92). corresponds to Etr. , which is a loanword from Umbrian (A.J. Pfiffig, "Die etruskische Sprache", Graz 1969, p. 297). The stele also contains , evidently the name of the honored/deceased in regular Etruscan form: Aker = praenomen, Tavars'io = gentilicium, Vanalasial = metronymic. To my knowledge *Acer is unattested as a praenomen in Etruria, but its former existence is indicated by the gentilicia Acri (TLE 618; CIE 3987,4257), Acrie (CIE 5039), and Acrni (TLE 442). For parallel derivation see the gentilicia Veli (CIE 3421,3933,4322 etc.), Velie (TLE 7; CIE 752,2702), and Velni (CIE 4335,4682/3), all formed from the common praenomen Vel. This PN-GN-MN naming system originated in central Italy with the Etruscans and Italics before 700 BCE, though it took some 200 years to become established in Campania (M. Cristofani et al., "Il sistema onomastico" in AA. VV. "L'Etrusco arcaico", Firenze 1976, pp. 92-134). Aker's metronymic is based on the feminine gentilicium *Vanalasi. The feminine name-suffix <-i> was borrowed into Etruscan from Italic (de Simone op.cit. note 78). These points strongly suggest that the Etruscan community which left the stele and other inscriptions on Lemnos emigrated from Italy, probably around 650 BCE. The emigration must be dated after the development of the Italo-Etruscan gentilician naming system, but before the establishment of standard writing systems throughout the Etruscan-speaking parts of Italy. Other features of the inscription indicate that "Lemnian" should be regarded as a dialect of Archaic Etruscan, not a separate language, and hence not sufficiently remote from mainland Etruscan to serve for reconstruction of "Uretruskisch" or "Proto-Tyrrhenian". The Lemnian phrase corresponds to Recent Etr. 'of sixty years (of age)' (or 40 if you follow Torp's numeral scheme; cf. TLE 98). Note that Etr. is a genitive sg./pl. 'of year(s)'. The Lemnian dative phrase 'to Hylaeus the Phocaean' corresponds in form to Recent Etr. (TLE 84) and several Arch. Etr. dedicatory inscriptions. The mention of a Phocaean Greek, of course, says nothing about the provenance of these or any other Etruscan-speakers. As for your Ombrone (anc. Umbro), there are two rivers by that name as well as a Calabrian stream formerly called Oumbros. The stem Umbr- has no plausible Umbrian or other IE etymology. It was probably applied to certain rivers by non-Etruscan pre-IE substrate-speakers, then to dwellers in or across a particular river-valley (G. Alessio, "Mediterranei ed Italici nell'Italia centrale" in St. Etr. XXIX, 1961, pp. 191-217). The Umbrians themselves used (Lat. *Narcum nomen) to denote the nation of dwellers in the valley of the Nar (mod. Nera), probably Sabines. There are good reasons to believe that Umbrians antedated Etruscans in this corner of the world, but the hydronym Ombrone is not one of them. >The general aspect of the language is flecting, with elements that recall >(P)IE (e.g. -c, Lat. -que, Greek -te, but that could be contamination), but >more similar to e.g. Lydian (-l, -s genitives), apparently with a strong >initial accent and pileups of consonants. In short: like a cousin rather than >a descendant of ('narrow') PIE. Etruscan nominal morphology is agglutinative and allows redetermination: an oblique case may be substantivized and may serve as the base for further inflection. E.g.: tus' n. 'niche' tus't(h)i loc. 'in the niche' TLE 630,631,655 tus'ur pl. 'niches' tus'urthi loc. 'in the niches' TLE 586,627 tus'urthir pl. 'those (dead spouses) in the niches' TLE 587 papa n. 'grandfather' papals abl. 'from the grandfather' = 'grandchild' TLE 437 papalser pl. 'grandchildren (of male)' TLE 169; Tab. Cort. Calu n. 'god of Death' Calus gen. 'belonging to Calu' cf. TLE 642 Calusur pl. 'those belonging to Calu' = 'the dead' Calusurasi dat. 'to those etc.' = 'to the dead' TLE 172 Can your favorite IE language do that? >A few years ago, M. Carrasquer made a tentative family tree I will send you >privately since this list doesn't allow it. Thank you. I don't dispute the outline of this tree (other than the position of Gmc. which is not presently under discussion). What is needed for serious assessment of Proto-Indo-Tyrrhenian is a table of sound-changes between PT and PIE or PIH (other than the work of certifiable kooks, who are attracted to Etruscan like fruit flies to a banana display). This in turn requires a deeper knowledge of native Etruscan vocabulary. Attempting to reconstruct PIT with current data would be premature at best. If we take the date of 1200 BCE for the presumed Etruscan emigration, and regard the Etruscans of Lemnos as a relict population, we are confronted by the absence of corroboration in the classical authors. Homer does not mention Etruscans (Turse:noi, "Tyrrhenians") on Lemnos; his inhabitants of Lemnos are Sinties (Il. I.593-4; Od. VIII.294). These were Thracians according to Strabo (Geog. VII fr. 45; XII.3.20). Early references to Tyrrhenians (Hesiod, Theog. 1016; "Homeric" Hymn to Dionysus HH 7.8) do not involve Lemnos. Later tradition has the Minyae, descended from the Argonauts, expelled from Lemnos by Pelasgians (Hdt. IV.145; Paus. VII.2.2). The island was eventually taken over by the Athenians (Hdt. VI.139-40). Thucydides, in listing bilingual barbarians living near Athos some years afterward (IV.109.4), mentions Tyrrhenians formerly inhabiting Lemnos and Athens. It is hardly likely that a substantial population of Etruscans lived on Lemnos for several centuries. More probable is a small colony of Etruscans (retired pirates?) between ca. 650-450 BCE, with the majority of the island's inhabitants being Pelasgians at that time. The source of the Anatolian-Etruscan hypothesis is of course the story related by Herodotus (I.94). The Lydians claimed to have colonized Etruria during a long famine, having sent half the population away under the king's son Tyrsenus, whose name was then taken by the colonists. The whole story is presented in indirect discourse depending on 'and the Lydians themselves say...' indicating that Herodotus does not attach factual weight to it. As the historian admits elsewhere (VII.152) 'I am obliged to tell the stories, but I am not obliged to believe them unconditionally'. Among later authors Velleius Paterculus took this story at face-value, but Dionysius Halicarnassius, who spent years actually studying the Etruscans in Etruria, rejected it. VP has had no shortage of successors, even now, who blithely ride the Anatolian-Etruscan bandwagon. >There are also non-linguistic arguments, like the bronze liver of Piacenza, >used as a model by Etruscan fortune tellers, which has N. Mesopotamian >characteristics. Or the considerable Greek content of Etruscan culture. The bronze liver is rather late as Etruscan artefacts go. Greeks had a considerable presence in Italy from early times; the Greek inscription of Gabii is dated to ca. 770 BCE; we can infer that most if not all of the Greek content was transferred to Etruscan culture on Italian soil. A powerful "argumentum ex silentio" against Etruscans coming from Anatolia in the late II-early I mill. BCE is the absence of Mesopotamian deities and motifs in early (un-Hellenized) Etruscan religion. >Although this isn't really an argument, I would like to add this: [snip of material on Aeneid] >All this means is that probably some people from the north-eastern >Mediterranean arrived in Latium or thereabout in or before the earliest >days of >the Roman tradition. I don't dispute the last point. A lot of things happened in the aftermath of the Trojan War. I just don't find it plausible that Etruscan emigration from Anatolia was one of them. DGK From miskec4096 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 14 21:42:50 2001 From: miskec4096 at hotmail.com (Kreso Megyeral) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:42:50 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Steve Gustafson wrote: >I have wondered about whether the Etruscans are somehow related to the >proto-Germans. Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible >brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek >words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, >Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. These names also >make you wonder whether their script was somehow inadequately supplied with >vowels, or made heavy use of abbreviated forms. The same thing occurs in Albanian in borrowings from Latin (imperator - mbret, parentem - prind, fossatus - fshat), so I suppose it has nothing to do with the script. From petegray at btinternet.com Fri Jan 12 20:05:06 2001 From: petegray at btinternet.com (petegray) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:05:06 -0000 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: > Does anyone out there know where in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? The only reference in the Aeneid to Lemnos is 8:454, Lemnios pater (of Vulcan). It is a reference to Iliad 1:592, and perhaps Od 8:284. Lemnios became the dearest place on earth to Hephaestus (Vulcan). Peter From edsel at glo.be Sun Jan 14 19:01:42 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 20:01:42 +0100 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 11:42 PM >> Does anyone out there know where in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? >> I have not been able to find it. > A tangential reference, I think, Aeneid 8.454: > "Haec pater Aeoliis properat dum Lemnius oris, ..." > -- Doug Wilson [Ed Selleslagh] I'm sorry I had overlooked that. However, this (Pater Lemnius) is simply a reference to Hephaistos/Vulcanus, who was thrown on the island by one of his parents. Nonetheless, the subsequent verses - which I looked up again after your remark - are relevant for Vergilius' idea (and confusion) about the origin of the Etruscans and Italic people: Book 8.478: Haud procul hinc saxo incolitur fundata vetusto urbis Agyllinae sedes, ubi Lydia quondam gens, bello praeclara, iugis insedit Etruscis. ["hinc" (from here) means 'from Rome'. J. Dryden identifies Agylla with the Etruscan city of Caere. His translation of "iugis Etruscis" as "from the Tuscans(' yoke)" is inacceptable: it contradicts the whole context. If it were true, in Vergilius' words, the Lydian immigrants would have chased the Etruscans from the place. That would possibly mean that the Tuscans are confounded with the Umbrians, an interesting possibility] Book 8.499: O Maeoniae delecta iuventus, flos veterum virtusque virum, quos iustus in hostem fert doloret merita accendit Mezentius ira, nulli fas Italo tantam subiungere gentem: externos optate duces.[Maeonia is a region in Lydia]. So he clearly thinks the Etruscans are of Lydian origin (quite common in his days) and are distinct from the Italic people. Of course he has to posit that Aeneas is somehow Italic, otherwise his nationalistic epic wouldn't make sense. On the other hand, he has him come from Troy, a city with a complex history of successive cultures, most probably (in my view) first Anatolian - maybe Hittite or some other/older culture from Anatolia - then Achaean/Greek. Its double name Troy/Ilion could well be a sign of its mixed ethnic/linguistic history: the root IL/R(I), UR(I) is found all over the Eastern Mediterranean (Mesopotamia, Hebrew, some Greek toponyms like Hyria...), and in Basque (iri = city, formerly ili); Iliki (now Alcudia, from 'the hill' in Arabic: it is a tell) was an outpost of an Iberian settlement (now Elche in the Spanish province of Alicante). Troy isn't all that far from Lemnos, on the route to S. Greece and the rest of the Mediterranean. So, all this is compatible with the idea that the Etruscans were of geographically Anatolian origin, and possibly related to peoples speaking a language somehow related to the Anatolian branch of "wide" PIE, and that some of them were (still) in Kaminia on Lemnos in the 6th or 7th c. B.C. If the relation to the Trojan war contains any truth at all, the forefathers of the Etruscans would probably have left the region in the 12th c. B.C., which corresponds to the earliest estimate of their arrival in Etruria. But who would bet on that? These are just some ideas, not intended to convince anyone who has good reasons to think otherwise. Ed. From dalazal at hotmail.com Tue Jan 16 01:15:16 2001 From: dalazal at hotmail.com (Diogo Almeida) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:15:16 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: >From: "Leo A. Connolly" >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:35:39 +0000 [ moderator snip ] >The larger question is why we have _leche_ (as well as It. _latte_, Fr. >_lait_ when there was no **_lactem_ so long as the word was neuter. But if >_lactem_ developed, then gender reassignment would be a must, and formally >there would have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. Why >shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, it's >the masculine forms that need explaining. I'm no specialist and I don't know what was the vulgar latin or the early romance word for milk on the Peninsula at that time, but my latin dictionary gives "lacte, is" for milk (and "lac" as an archaic form). I think that "lactem" then, would have been the accusative form (I have to rely on my memory, though, since I don't have any Latin grammar with me :) ). Portuguese, as a general rule, got the accusative form of latin words. So "lactem" being the accusative, it seems likely that the word in Portuguese developed from that form (I don't have an etymological dictionary with me, though). And since neuter was absorbed by the masculine gender in general (at least in Portuguese, I don't know about Spanish), i don't see any problems with "leite" being masculine. On the other hand, "leche" as feminine is strange to me, especially because Portuguese and Spanish normally agree when it comes to the gender of the words. >"formally there would have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. >Why shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, >it's the masculine forms that need explaining." If the gender systems of Portuguese and Spanish were mainly semantically driven, maybe. But they aren't. There is a strong formal element in gender assingment in these languages. And as I said before, I think that neuter words become masculine in Portuguese most of the time (and I guess this is also true for Spanish). Best wishes, Diogo From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sat Jan 13 20:27:43 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:27:43 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro... In-Reply-To: <000901c07b71$1adebde0$e86663d1@texas.net> Message-ID: Do domestic cats only descend from North African cats? Or did they also interbreed with various species of small local wildcats? >>> The were wild cats (Felis silvestris) in East European forests. >> And there still are in the Scottish Highlands > Not that it matters ... > The extinction of European wild cats anywhere in Europe is (I think) >fairly recent. Except for having shorter tails, they are very close to >African Wild cats anyway. >Dr. David L. White Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From acnasvers at hotmail.com Mon Jan 15 11:19:17 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:19:17 -0000 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: On 4 Jan 2001, Rick Mc Callister wrote: >[DGK] >> Alessio rejects the connection between the Sardo-Corsican dog-terms and >> Basque , on phonetic grounds. He suggests might be >> derived from a Ligurian form represented by Late Lat. , Ital. >> 'bloodhound'. >[RMCC] > Corominas is locked up in the library for the next week or so, so I >hope you don't mind me asking how and if Spanish sabueso "bloodhound" is >derived from segusius. It looks possible but messy: I can see sabueso from >something like *sagu"eso < *sagOso- but it gives an open /O/, rather than >closed /o/ that would be expected from /u/ > Or is it directly from substrate? I would guess directly from substrate. Otherwise the /a/ of the first syllable is also hard to derive from Latin /e/. The first "u" of segusius is presumed long on the basis of "grecizzato" egousia, which I neglected to mention in my posting. 3 of the 4 possible variations of /a:e/ correspondence are found in presumed substratal words: Lat. cerrus, It. cerro, Sp. carrasco 'holm-oak' Lat. larix, It. larice, Sp. alerce 'larch' Lat. betula, It. betulla, Sp. abedul 'birch' It. cheppia, Sp. sa'balo, saboga, saboca 'shad' These are practically the only examples I have, so I don't know whether the vowel-alternation and prosthetic /a/ are strictly determined by phonetic environment. >> Ligurians living near Tartessos are reported by Steph. Byz. (s.v. >> Ligustine), and Thuc. (VI.2.2) says the Sicanians claimed to be Iberians >> driven from the basin of the Sikanos (mod. Jucar?) by Ligurians. Alessio >> thus hypothesizes that the Ligurians brought substratal forms from the >> Balkans to southern Spain, whence the Iberians passed some of them (perhaps >> including ) on to the Basques, giving Hubschmid and others the false >> impression that Basque itself originated in the East. > So Alessio proposed the Lusitanians = "IE Ligurians" = Illyrians >hypothesis? By "IE Ligurians", I mean the non-Celtic, non-Italic IE >speakers of N Italy & S France > I've also seen claims that the Sikani themselves were Ligurians >based on toponymic similarities between names in Sicily and Liguria Actually, I have not seen Alessio mention Lusitanians in his papers which I have read so far, and his Ligurians (or Balkano-Ligurians) are non-IE-speakers responsible for substratal material like the examples above. In one of his papers Alessio quotes Festus (414 L.) "Reate orti [Sacrani] qui a Septimontio Ligures Siculosque exegerunt" and argues that this shows the identity of Ligures and Siculi. I don't see this; Festus seems to be referring to two distinct nations. Likewise Alessio reads the identity of Ligues and Sikanoi into Thucydides (VI.2.2), who actually states the Sikanoi claimed to have been driven away from the Sikanos by the Ligues. In my own humble view, the Siculi probably represent the first wave of IE-speakers into Italy, responsible for forms in which PIE medial *dh has become /t/ (Aitne/Aetna, Rutuli, Liternum/Leuternon, and probably the source of Etr. lautni 'freedman'). Thucydides (VI.2.4) says there were still some Siculi in Italy in his time. The Sicani claimed to be Iberians, but if this term is understood geographically, they might be identifiable with the non-Celtic, non-Italic IE-speakers of Liguria, and their later migration to Sicily might explain the similarity of toponyms. Provisionally I prefer to retain "Ligurian" for one of the well-defined pre-IE substrates in Italy, the other being "Pelasgian" (citrus, menta, rosa <- *wrodia, vaccinium, viola, etc.). Etruscan is non-IE but not pre-IE and does not qualify as a substrate. Not that any of this is likely to clear the air... DGK From X99Lynx at aol.com Sat Jan 13 07:16:53 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:16:53 EST Subject: Early Goths as Drinkers Message-ID: In a message dated 1/12/2001 7:16:16 PM, dlwhite at texas.net writes: << It could be an "other-name" (if that is the opposite of "self-name") from other Germans.>> That's a possibility, but it could have been a name given by Celts or Sarmatians or Finns, too. The idea of looking to Greek is simply based on the fact that the name first appears in Greek, and there's a fair lists of tribal names in Greek that seem to or clearly do mean something in Greek, or at least have a folk or conjectured etymology in Greek. Add to the heavy influence that Greek had on the first writing in Gothic (including its script), and it seems reasonable at least to take a look. <> Well, it's a bit more subtle than that. There were strong religious and cultural implications in alcohol among certain groups in that place and time, and one might see them transposed into Christian rituals, for example. The notion of pouring libations over the dead was an old one among the Greeks, mentioned in Homer. Other rituals at meals and certain times of the year also involved offering a pour (maybe a , Gothic, vessels for liquids) to the dead or to spirits. A book which I have not seen came out recently about evidence of feasting in connection with Cernjachov ("Gothic") burials, perhaps something like an Irish wake. The notion suggested by some scholars that the Goths were a religious grouping as much as an ethnic one might suggest that the name might refers to specific, characteristic rituals (as, e.g., "Baptist"). Some connection may be made to the practice of pouring libations to the dead or other such rituals reflected in Greek words like , , and (offering "choai" to the dead, as in the tragedy Choe:phoroi, where the Chorus pours choai to the shade of Agamemnon.) Because our direct knowledge of Gothic is after Christianization in primarily Christian texts, perhaps we only see the remnants of these practices in Gothic words like , , and even perhaps a satemized , sacrifice, burnt-offering. But in all there isn't much sense in betting on any of these interpretations, including the ones about floods and semen, because one appears to be as likely or unlikely as the other. Which is to some degree the point I'm making. Regards, Steve Long From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sat Jan 13 20:25:20 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:25:20 -0500 Subject: cat < ? In-Reply-To: <92.ed95e36.278eb425@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanx for the impressive inventory of feline knowledge Buck [1949: 181] suggests that Greek aie/louros, ai/louros "cat, marten, ferret, weasel, etc." may be from aio/los "quick" + oura/: "tail" In my notes, Buck offers no etymology for Latin fe:le:s "cat, marten, ferret", although Buck says to see Welsh beleu "marten" Someone, maybe Partridge 1958, links feles to Latin meles "badger" I suppose Hindi bhili "cat" would be too fortuitous to suggest a connection based on *bhil-, *bhel-? [snip] >The earlier term for cats in Greek was or . Herodotus >describes them in Egypt in a way that seems to indicate that domestic cats >were not very familiar to his readers. Aristophanes mentions cats as part of >a grabbag of wild game that is to be eaten. Yum! > might be some kind of a contraction, + , >guardian. Or a compound, , ship watcher. (A study in the >'70's showed that the spread of the currently dominant feral breed of >domestic cat, the blotched tabby, can be traced back to European sea port >towns. Associating cats with ships might be the first impression - >especially since they served the purpose of protecting grain cargoes against >mice and rats.) is also a word in Greek refering to Egyptian desert >country and the Libyan desert wildcat is very closely related to the European >domestic cat. So is there a Greek Dick Whittington tale? > also brings up the Lynx and , a kind of >amber, the word derived by both Latins and Greeks "from lunx, ouron, and >supposed to be the coagulated urine of the lynx." Finally there is >wailing, cry of anguish. (Cf., Latin , cat; weeping; >, to neigh as a horse does). > >, the original Latin word for domestic cat, is often derived from >, referring either to the fecundity of cats or to the good effect they >have on preserving growing things and grains against rodents and birds. From what I gather, feles was originally applied to a ferret, mongoose or other type of weasel. I like your ailouros etymology a lot more > >Lidell-Scott give the first citation of for cat as Aristophanes, but >this is ambiguous and may be too early. appears in Greek as >rooster, horse and two varieties of fish. may have been a rooster. > refers in general to ferrets, martens, polecats and weasels. The >lynx is the main wildcat in the Greek world, drawing the chariot of >Bacchus and such. In Latin, it is the ferret that gets the job of mouser by >name, or , indicating maybe that cats were not that >common early on. Are there any known IE roots for these words? > >One possibility, though slightly distasteful to a cat appreciator like >myself, is that the cat got its name from the use of its parts. > >Gr , Att. , to sew, to stitch together like a shoemaker. >, a piece of leather (or animal skin.) , stretch, draw >tigth, especially a cord or strip of animal skin. Perhaps this is somehow >the source of "catgut", for which I haven't seen a decent explanation. >(Attested is a Persian or Babylonian fur prepared from mouse skins, > or , so anything was possible.) My intuition is that cats would have been too valuable but in a society that feasted on lark's tongues, anything's possible [snip] >Genetically, many domestic cat shows very close ties to the North African >breed. [snip] So, if we could only find a Berber word of sufficient antiquity linked both semantically and phonologically. But I suppose if one existed, it would already be cited in OED Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sat Jan 13 20:46:48 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:46:48 -0500 Subject: dulcis/lac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember seeing something like that bruited about and rejected for whatever reason --too long? too complex? It may have been in a post by Alexis Manaster Ramer, I'm not sure If [something like] *dlak- were indeed possible I'm wondering 1. If there were a possibility of a semantic link to Buck's proposed *dluk- [if it is indeed valid] based on "sweet, sweetness, sweet liquid" 2. If this works, then if milk might not spring a type of calque based on *mel- "honey" > *mlak-, *melgh-, etc. meaning something like "sweet, sweet liquid, honeyed, honey liquid" I believe there are proposed Nostratic roots for "milk" & "honey" based on [off the top of my head] something like *ml-, *mlk-/mlgh-; so such a connection would not necessarily upset the Nostratic apple cart --but that's something we can discuss on FM :> >> I noticed that Buck [among others] suggests >> Latin dulcis & Greek gluku/s < *dluk- >> I'm wondering if there's any possibility of >> Latin lac, lact- & Greek gala, galakt- < *dlak- >> I've also seen Latin loquor linked to [something like] Gaelic tlu-, >> and English talk >OTOH, *gmlkt has the advantage of, with suitable snippage, >giving also the Germanic form... >--And. Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From dlwhite at texas.net Sun Jan 14 14:58:01 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:58:01 -0600 Subject: IE 'wolf' Message-ID: > What are to make of Gaulish Louernios (*loup-ern-io), "fox," which may stem > from the same root as Indic lopasa, Avestan raopi ? These words are related > to Latin lupus in Pokorny. > -Chris Gwinn I supose that the 'wolf' and 'fox' words are ultimately splits from a single word, and that both were subject to tabu deformation. Re-stating, hopefully more clearly, what I originally said, it appears that we have 1) a variation between /lu/ and /wl/, and 2) a variation between /k(w)/ and /p/. All four possibilities are found meaning 'wolf' in some IE language. I hope this attempt at a table makes it. It probably won't ... /lu/ /wl/ /k(w)/ luka vlka /p/ lupo wolf These variations do not, as far as I know, seem to be due to sound-change or borrowing, as they are not generally characteristic of the various branches in question. The first part, /lu/ or /wl/, may well be relatable by sound-symbolism to various words for 'howl' (which itself is, or was, an example), or 'be destroyed' (Greek 'olumi'), or the sound made by modern Middle Eastern women at funerals and what not. Dr. David L. White From alderson at xkl.com Thu Jan 18 19:03:42 2001 From: alderson at xkl.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:03:42 -0500 Subject: [juhani.klemola@helsinki.fi: Call for Papers] Message-ID: I am forwarding the following announcement with the permission of Dr. Klemola. Requests for further information should be sent to the conference addresses below. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Message-ID: <3A64630B.6891.134BE56 at localhost> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:22:17 EST Reply-To: juhani.klemola at helsinki.fi From: Juhani Klemola Subject: Call for Papers To: HISTLING at VM.SC.EDU ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Call for Papers International Colloquium on Early Contacts between English and the Celtic Languages University of Joensuu Research Station, Mekrijarvi, Finland 24-26 August, 2001 Scholars interested in historical and linguistic contacts between English and the Celtic languages are invited to offer contributions to the "International Colloquium on Early Contacts between English and the Celtic Languages", which will be held from August 24 to 26, 2001, at the University of Joensuu Research Station in Mekrijarvi, North Karelia, Finland. The aim of the Colloquium is to bring together distinguished scholars =96 historians, Celticists, Anglicists, and general linguists =96 to discuss the nature and extent of the historical and linguistic contacts between speakers of Celtic languages and speakers of Germanic languages and their impact on the development of the English language. Despite the recent rise of interest in the possibility of Celtic substratum influences in English, there have so far been few opportunities for scholars working on different aspects of this question to come together and exchange their findings. It is the purpose of this Colloquium to provide a forum for such discussion. A selection of the papers will be published. The contributions are expected to address questions relating to the following broad topics: (i) the historical background to the early (i.e. medieval and early modern) contacts between speakers of Celtic and Germanic languages; (ii)the linguistic outcomes of the early contacts in phonology, grammar and lexis. The following speakers are already confirmed: Anders Ahlqvist (Galway), Andrew Breeze (Navarra), Richard Coates (Sussex), Nick Higham (Manchester), Cathair =D3 Dochairtaigh (Glasgow), Erich Poppe (Marburg), Peter Schrijver (Munich), Hildegard L.C. Tristram (Potsdam), Theo Vennemann (Munich), and Kalevi Wiik (Turku). The Colloquium will be organised by the project group =93English and Celtic in Contact=94, whose members are Prof. Markku Filppula (University of Joensuu), Dr. Juhani Klemola (University of Helsinki), and Ms Heli Pitkanen (University of Joensuu). Funded by the Academy of Finland, this project is run jointly by the Department of English, University of Joensuu, and the Research Unit for Variation and Change in English, University of Helsinki. (For more information about the project please check the website http://www.joensuu.fi/fld/ecc/) Please note that only a limited number of papers (20+10 minutes) can be accepted because of the limitations of space at the Mekrijarvi Research Station. The conference fee of FIM 1000 (approx. =A3100 sterling) will cover 3 nights' full board and lodging at Mekrijarvi from Thursday evening to Sunday afternoon, and coach transportation from Joensuu to Mekrijarvi on the evening of Thursday 23 August and back to Joensuu on Sunday 26 August. The programme will run from Friday morning till Sunday afternoon. Abstracts (maximum 1 page) and all enquiries should be sent to Dr Juhani Klemola, e-mail juhani.klemola at helsinki.fi (conventional mail: Department of English, University of Helsinki, P.O. Box 3, FIN-00014 University of Helsinki, Finland). The deadline for submission is 15 March, 2001. ------- End of forwarded message ------- From xavier.delamarre at free.fr Tue Jan 16 08:35:28 2001 From: xavier.delamarre at free.fr (Xavier Delamarre) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:35:28 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We must thank Douglas G. Kilday for his extremely clear, balanced and convincing presentation of Etruscan origins. X. Delamarre From stevegus at aye.net Tue Jan 16 04:49:20 2001 From: stevegus at aye.net (Steve Gustafson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:49:20 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Douglas G. Kilday wrote: > Etruscan nominal morphology is agglutinative and allows redetermination: an > oblique case may be substantivized and may serve as the base for further > inflection. E.g.: > tus' n. 'niche' > tus't(h)i loc. 'in the niche' TLE 630,631,655 > tus'ur pl. 'niches' > tus'urthi loc. 'in the niches' TLE 586,627 > tus'urthir pl. 'those (dead spouses) in the niches' TLE 587 > papa n. 'grandfather' > papals abl. 'from the grandfather' = 'grandchild' TLE 437 > papalser pl. 'grandchildren (of male)' TLE 169; Tab. Cort. > Calu n. 'god of Death' > Calus gen. 'belonging to Calu' cf. TLE 642 > Calusur pl. 'those belonging to Calu' = 'the dead' > Calusurasi dat. 'to those etc.' = 'to the dead' TLE 172 > Can your favorite IE language do that? Not often, no. But my understanding is that the business of the reconstruction of the IE noun case system reveals a number of both stillborn and fossil cases that, had they been generalised, would have added to the number of cases recoverable. Moreover, my recollection is that the existence of languages with otherwise conservative morphology, like Greek, Gothic, and Hittite, that never seem to have had the full complement of Sanskrit cases, and the strongly different system that prevails in the Tocharian languages, has led some to suggest that the PIE cases may have been added to, rather than subtracted from. The Sanskrit, Celtic, and Latin cases that are formed in the plural on *-bh- seem to be elaborations on a common suffix, at least somewhat comparable to the Etruscan cases. Germanic and Slavic apparently used a different suffix, *-m-, and Slavic may have worked it the same way. This suggests to me, that the PIE cases may once have had agglutinative features, and that we can still see part of the process by which they were built up. Moreover, the *bh- suffix has been fossilized in Greek words like -thyrephi-, "outside." This was once a productive instrumental style case in Greek, as revealed in Mycenean ko-ru-pi, "with helmets," and po-ni-ki-pi, "using purple dye." Of course, you now have N. English fossil case forms like "seldom" and "random." This last, at least, can be nouned as well, and made the base of new formations like "randomize." English and Scandinavian also exhibit the interesting trait of vagrant case markers, of the "Queen of England's knickers" type. PIE can't do this either. I may be a certifiable kook [and I cheerfully confess, no more than an interested amateur], but it seems that the Etruscan noun morphology --- though it has obviously been substantially reshaped --- does not rule out that there may be a common ancestor between PIE and Etruscan. I would not speculate that Etruscan is a direct descendant of PIE. Etruscan strikes me as interesting, in that it seems a logical place to -test- theories about super-families. -- Farouche et raffolant des donjons moyen bge, J'irais m'ensevelir au fond d'un vieux manoir: Comme je humerais le mysthre qui nage Entre de vastes murs tendus de velours noir! --- Maurice Rollinat From proto-language at email.msn.com Tue Jan 16 16:06:31 2001 From: proto-language at email.msn.com (proto-language) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:06:31 -0600 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Dear Rick and IEists: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Mc Callister" Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 1:09 PM Off the top of my head, he, and many other general writers linked Apollo to a word meaning "to destroy"; while Steven Zimmer, in Markey & Greppin [1990: 311 ff] offers the following [PR] Some may be interested in my attempt to etymologize Apollo as *apa-, 'father' + *leun-, 'lion', at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/apollo.htm Pat PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE at email.msn.com (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindgá meiði a netr allar nío, geiri vndaþr . . . a þeim meiþi, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rótom renn." (Hávamál 138) From mcv at wxs.nl Tue Jan 16 19:30:05 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:30:05 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Jan 2001 03:21:09 -0000, "Douglas G Kilday" wrote: >Examination of the Lemnian stele does not favor the hypothesis of Etruscan >emigration from Anatolia. The alphabet of the stele and similar minor >inscriptions found on Lemnos belongs to the Euboico-Chalcidian family, not >directly related to the Phrygian alphabet used in NW Anatolia and Gordium, >and out of place among the East Ionian and Cycladic alphabets typical of the >Aegean. Features include the Lemnian use of the zigzag sign as a sibilant >(not a vowel as in Phrygian), the fricative value of H (vocalic in East >Ionian), the psi-shaped chi (X-shaped in Cycladic and EI), and the existence >of vau (digamma, already extinct in EI). The Lemnian alphabet is clearly an >intrusion from the West. Indeed it is difficult to derive this alphabet >directly from Euboea without going through the Chalcidian models of Greek >communities in Italy. For details see Carlo de Simone, "I Tirreni a Lemnos: >l'alfabeto" in Studi Etruschi LX, 1994, pp. 145-63. But Lemnos is only 50km or so off the Chalcidian coast. It is definitely not an Ionian, Aeolic or Cycladic island. In fact, the surprising thing would be if the alphabet did *not* belong to the Euboico-Chalcidian family. >The stele contains the phrase which is plausibly >'grandson of Holaie'; Lemn. Holaie = Hylaeus (A. Trombetti, "La lingua >etrusca", Firenze 1928, pp. 188-92). corresponds to Etr. , > which is a loanword from Umbrian (A.J. Pfiffig, "Die etruskische >Sprache", Graz 1969, p. 297). Larissa Bonfante says the word was borrowed in Etruscan from Latin, and in fact it might have been borrowed from any Indo-European language having a reflex of *nepot-, including Greek (Homeric ) or even Carian ( or "child", if I can trust Woudhuizen's sources [Meriggi]). So this word is rather inconclusive, except that it's obviously easier to go from to than the other way around. >The stele also contains vanalasial>, evidently the name of the honored/deceased in regular Etruscan >form: Aker = praenomen, Tavars'io = gentilicium, Vanalasial = metronymic. The two lines are usually read: "vanalasial s'eronai morinail / aker tavars'io" (I'm sure there's a reason for reading "vanalasial", but on every copy I've seen, what I read is: "va.m.ala.sial: s'eronaimorinail"). There is no compelling reason not to accept your alternative reading "Aker Tavars'io / Vanalasial S'eronai Morinail", but if the first 3 words are the name of the deceased, what is the meaning of , apparently the genitive of "in Seruna, in Murina"? I'm personally convinced that the name of the deceased is "S'ivai", as the central message of the stele seems to be (repeated twice: in the front center, and on the side): S'ivai evistho S'eronaith sialchveis' avis' maras'm av[is' ais'] / S'ivai avis' sialchvis' maras'm avis' aomai [approxiamtely: "Sivai, "evistho" in Seruna, of years 60[?] and[?] 5[?] years died[?]"]. >Other features of the inscription indicate that "Lemnian" should be regarded >as a dialect of Archaic Etruscan, not a separate language, and hence not >sufficiently remote from mainland Etruscan to serve for reconstruction of >"Uretruskisch" or "Proto-Tyrrhenian". The Lemnian phrase >corresponds to Recent Etr. 'of sixty years (of age)' (or >40 if you follow Torp's numeral scheme; cf. TLE 98). Note that Etr. >is a genitive sg./pl. 'of year(s)'. The Lemnian dative phrase phokiasiale> 'to Hylaeus the Phocaean' corresponds in form to Recent Etr. > (TLE 84) and several Arch. Etr. dedicatory >inscriptions. On the other hand, Lemnian shows little or no trace of the ubiquitous Etruscan 3rd.p. preterit ending -ce (there is , but in view of , one can doubt whether this is a verb or a reference to Phocaea), and it is in fact impossible to recognize any verbal form in Lemnian (maybe -io ?). The gap between and has already been commented on. Neither nor occur in this short fragment (and how would Lemnian have rendered ?), and Etr. (no ) is Lemnian (no ) [this might merely be an orthographic issue, in view of Morina=Murina]. Lemnian in the formula must surely be a numeral, but fits none of the Etruscan ones (the only one that comes even remotely close is "5", a little bit closer [but still remote] if we consider the derivative "50", showing that the -ch was not part of the root, but probably identical to -c(h) "and" [cf. PIE *pen-kwe "... and 5"], so something like *mawa-k(h) "[... and ]5", *mawa-alkh "50"). In sum, I see little reason to think that Lemnian differs only trivially from Etruscan, despite the fact that it is clearly related to it. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From kcummings at iprimus.com.au Thu Jan 18 01:17:45 2001 From: kcummings at iprimus.com.au (Katherine Cummings) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:17:45 +1100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Ref Hercle, Zimite Message-ID: Attic cognates in Etruscan 1 Herakles = Hercle Hercle is a mild profanity in the plays of TERENTIVS. This demotic form was considered to derive, not from Lt HERCVLES, but from Gk Herakles, Approximately, Godammit! / Bloody Hell! But is it Etruscan? Did Roman citizens of the mid-2nd BPE all swear in Etruscan? 2 Pat Ryan (6 Jan 2001) wrote: >Could you tell me the source for the opinion that Roma is derived from >Etruscan Ruma? And what is it supposed to mean? This opinion is brought to you by the "can't-find-plausible-IE-cognates-so-it-must-be-Etruscan" school of Latin etymology. The Etruscan form Ruma is inferred from Cneve Tarchunies Rumach (equiv. to Lat. Gnaeus Tarquinius Romanus), slain by the Vulcentine warrior Marce Camitlnas as depicted in paintings from the "Francois" tomb of Vel Saties (TLE 297-300; CIE 5266-75). There is also a gentilicium Rumate/Rumathe (CIE 1944,4883,4885) meaning 'from Rome'. Ruma is most likely an adaptation of Roma, not the other way around. Etruscan does not distinguish /o:u/ and generally uses U to replace O in borrowed roots. On the other hand when native Etruscan names having U before a single consonant in the root are borrowed into Latin, the U is retained (e.g. Spurinna, Fusios/Furius). Hence if Ruma were Etruscan in origin, one would expect Latin Ruma as well. The name Roma probably predates Etruscan influence in the area and comes from some other source. The most plausible conjecture for the meaning of Roma is 'ford, crossing', since it was the most practical site for traffic between Etruria and Latium to cross the Tiber. 'Bridge' is out, as there was no bridge here before the Pons Sublicius, and there is no evidence that the city's name was changed when the bridge was built. DGK From dlwhite at texas.net Mon Jan 15 22:13:26 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:13:26 -0600 Subject: Etruscan Deonyms Message-ID: I guess probably most of those wgod-names are manglings from Greek, perhaps even "Aplu". Still, I venture to wonder (having no etymological dictionaries of any kind here to guide me) whether some of these etymologies may not be specifically Greek rather than generally IE. I have not been able, in my somewhat pathetic efforts, to find "laos" outside of Greek, for example, though it's probably out there, somewhere ... Dr. David L. White From dlwhite at texas.net Mon Jan 15 22:18:45 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:18:45 -0600 Subject: Greek Gods Message-ID: >>I have heard that of the Greek gods only Zeus is IE. > I wouldn't go that far - surely we have a few more Sorry. The statement I was thinking of referred only to the major (12?) gods of the pantheon. Dr. David L. White From dlwhite at texas.net Tue Jan 16 03:19:21 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:19:21 -0600 Subject: Early Goths as Drinkers Message-ID: Harking back to an earlier emissive, I would like to know more about how the name of the Goths is supposed to have been from two different agent nouns, each from a different ablaut grade. It would also be good to know how the /o/ got there in Latin. One possibility is that the name (as it reached Latin) is indeed an "other-name" from other Germanic, in which case /o/ rather than /u/ in a past-participle of /geutan/ (more or less) would in fact be regular. Or, to put it perhaps more clearly, the from with /o/ would be the non-Gothic Germanic, whereas the form with /u/ would be the Gothic version. That the Greeks were in contact with the Goths whereas the Romans were in contact with other Germanic tribes might explain this difference, which as far as I can see has no other explanation. Dr. David L. White From dlwhite at texas.net Tue Jan 16 03:28:55 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:28:55 -0600 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: > From what I gather, feles was originally applied to a ferret, mongoose or > other type of weasel. I like your ailouros etymology a lot more A truly minor point ... Mongooses (-geese?) are viverrids, not mustelids, and only one type of viverrid, the genet (not mongoose) of Iberia (spreading recently to France and even western Germany), occurs in Europe. For the Romans to call a mongoose a cat would have been more or less as for us to call skunks 'polecats' or a kind of racoon 'ringtail cats'. Not that that stops us. Speaking of deplorable, or understandable, vagueness in terms for animal, it is within the realm of possibility the word for 'fox' and 'wolf' were not originally distinguished, which would explain a few things. Dr. David L. White From X99Lynx at aol.com Tue Jan 16 13:20:09 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:20:09 EST Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/15/2001 9:52:56 PM, rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu writes: << Buck [1949: 181] suggests that Greek aie/louros, ai/louros "cat, marten, ferret, weasel, etc." may be from aio/los "quick" + oura/: "tail" >> Yes, but it's exactly the ferret connection to this and other cat words that suggest the concept of the animals was functional rather than descriptive, ferrets not looking a lot like cats except perhaps in size. The tail idea also occurs in squirrel, interpreted as 'shadow-tail.' But the shadow part , sometimes land overgrown with bushes, scrub.) Without going into gory details, also seems to refer to the variegated or glistening pieces of clothing, embroidery, sheen, the making of multi-colored garments, embellishments or adornments, like fur collars; cf. , "glittering girdle",in Homer; multi-colored turban; , man's upper garment. However, wagtail; stump-tailed. There are a lot of Gr words that refer to snake or serpents, of course, with similar forms, e.g., , , and one wonders if 'tail' and 'snake' originally shared just a descriptive element or whether a common function was involved. Regards, S. Long From kastytis.beitas at gf.vu.lt Wed Jan 17 05:51:18 2001 From: kastytis.beitas at gf.vu.lt (Kastytis Beitas) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 06:51:18 +0100 Subject: cat < ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can propose other possible origin for some 'non-cat' cat words. I think it is a rather frequent case when predatory animal is named according its prey. For example, in Lithuanian: peleda "owl" <-- pele "mous" + eda "to eat", zhuvedra "tern on gull" <-- zhuvis 'fish' + eda "to eat" (or edrus "voracious") In English: polecat or polcat at 1320 "ferret" <-- Old French poule, pol "fowl, hen" + cat It is semantically plausible that rodents names can be transformed to mouse hunter's (cat's or some Mustellidae mammal's) name. Similarity of motivation of these predator naming is seen in English polecat "ferret; Mustella putorius". And names of small rodents (and sometimes of shrew though shrew isn't a rodent but is similar to mice) are related to words with meanings "to make a hole; to peck etc". For example, Lithuanian kirstukas "shrew" <-- kirsti "to hack, to cut" or English shrew (etymology unknown?) and to shred. This relation is based on holes that are made by mices in pelts, clothes etc. or shredding or chapping straw or similar material to small litter... The part of semantic niche net is similar to this: "cat" "marten" <-- "mouse" A | "to peck; to make hole; to hit etc" --> "to beat to pulp" | | V V "to smash to parts, to make small" "pulp; gruel etc; material of similar consistence" For example: 1. Latin feles 'cat' reminds of Lithuanian pele 'mouse'. In Watkins Dictionary of Indo-European Roots pel- means "to thrust, to strike". >I suppose Hindi bhili "cat" would be too fortuitous to suggest a connection >based on *bhil-, *bhel-? 2. Hindi bhili 'cat' <-> Russian bilo 'thing for beating', Eng. beat etc. (maybe this bhili is cognate to Lithuanian pele) > >In Latin, it is the ferret that gets the job of mouser by > >name, or , indicating maybe that cats were not that > >common early on. 3. So mustella 'marten' <-> Latin mus, English mouse, German Maus, Polish mysz, Russian mysh' Chernykh in his 'Historically-Etymological Dictionary of Modern Russian Language' writes that Latin mus, Polish mysz, Russian mysh' may be origined from IE word with meanings "plunderer, spoiler". Chernykh states that mus and mysh' are cognates with Russian mukha 'fly' /and Latin musca 'fly'/. This comparison of mouse anf fly supports my hypothesis, because other possible meaning for 'fly-words' is a "bitter; one who bites". This fits to "bee-words" too: in Lithuanian bite "bee" etc. Armenian muk 'mouse' is similar to Russian muka "flour; what is grinded' and Russian muka "suffering"... English mouse and German Maus are similar to Russian musor "debris; litter". Chernykh states that musor is cognate with Russian musolit' "slabber, slaver" and both them are originated from IE *meu-, *mou- "damp, moist" and "liquid dirt; mud". But this cognateness is between musor and mud, moist is more distant in my opinion: musor is originated as "litter, produced by chapping (or by mice?)"... >Someone, maybe Partridge 1958, links feles to Latin meles "badger" 4. Latin meles "badger" <-> words with meanings 'to grind; to transfor to small parts' English mill Lithuanian male is past tense verb with meaning 'grind, mill' (but Lithuanian meleta means a few species of woodpecker) Russian melet 'to mill (present tense)', molot 'hammer' > >Gr , Att. , to sew, to stitch together like a shoemaker. > >, a piece of leather (or animal skin.) , stretch, draw > >tigth, especially a cord or strip of animal skin. Perhaps this is somehow > >the source of "catgut", for which I haven't seen a decent explanation. > >(Attested is a Persian or Babylonian fur prepared from mouse skins, > > or , so anything was possible.) So there is some basis to state that this all-Indo-European word cat in all its variations may by descendant of some Indo-European root with meaning "to hit, to strike, to make hole etc". Distant cognate of this hypothetical (?) root may be Watkins's kat- "to fight" and kat- "down". May be distant relatives of this are Lithuanian kietas and Latvian ciets "hard (vs. soft)". Or cut in Chambers Dictionary of Etymology: ,,Probably before 1300 either as: cutten <...>, kitten <...>; of uncertain orrigin (possibly borrowed from Scandinavian source; compare Swedish dialect kuta, kata "to cut", kuta "knife", and Icelandic kuti "knife". '' This excerpt from Chambers Dict.of Etym. reminds on my old posting (Lith. peilis "knife" <-> Lith. pele "mous"): >The similar case is with Lithuanian "peilis" 'knife'. It is similar to >Russian "pila" 'saw', Lat. "pilum" 'heavy javelin, pestle', OHG "pfil" '>arrow, stake'. >In this context OE "pil" 'stake, shaft, spike' and Eng "pile" 'arrow, dart' >may be not borrowings as it is stated in Chambers Dict. of Etym. ( p.794)] >but words of common Indo-European origin. So distant relativeof English cat or Lithuanian kate "male cat" or Russian kot "male cat" may be English kettle, Lithuanian katilas "kettle": In Chambers Dict.of Etym.: ,,kettle -- <...> borrowed directly from Latin catillus "small bowl, dish or plate", diminutive of catinus "bowl, dish, pot"; perhaps cognate with Greek kotyle "small vessel, cup" <...>. '' Hypothetical chain of semantic changes from kettle to cat: cat "hunter of mouse" <-> ?? "who makes holes" <-> "to strike" <-> "to hollow out" <-> "vessel, plate, cup, made by hollowing" <-> "kettle". ********************************** Kastytis Beitas ---------------------------------- Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics Faculty of Natural Sciences Vilnius University Ciurlionio 21 Vilnius 2009, Lithuania ---------------------------------- Fax: (370 2)235409 E-Mail: kastytis.beitas at gf.vu.lt ********************************** From dlwhite at texas.net Tue Jan 16 03:33:07 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:33:07 -0600 Subject: Origin of Cats Message-ID: > Do domestic cats only descend from North African cats? Or did they > also interbreed with various species of small local wildcats? Not various species, as 1) the African wildcat, 2) the European wildcat, and 3) the domestic cat are all these days considered sub-species of a single species. A little genetic inflow from European wild cats would, I think, have been virtually inevitable, though perhaps there is something in the genetic information supplied by others that contradicts this. Dr. David L. White From r.clark at auckland.ac.nz Tue Jan 16 04:29:01 2001 From: r.clark at auckland.ac.nz (Ross Clark (FOA LING)) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:29:01 +1300 Subject: Calcutta/Kolkatta Message-ID: Can you explain exactly what sorts of phonological difficulties "Kolkatta", "Mumbai", "Chennai" or "Basu" would have presented for "early Brits"? Ross Clark -----Original Message----- From: Shilpi Misty Bhadra [mailto:evenstar at mail.utexas.edu] Sent: Saturday, 13 January 2001 10:39 a.m. [ moderator snip ] Calcutta is now Kolkatta in the latest Indian news. Mumbai has been around for a long time, as Chennai for Madras. The early Brits had a hard time with pronouncing Indian names, although they didn't to have much trouble with Delhi (which hasn't changed). ;) My family is from Calcutta/Kolkatta. My mother's maiden name was Basu, but changed to Bose, because it would be easier for the Brits to pronounce. But she hasn't changed her maiden name spelling ... yet! ;) From rohan.oberoi at cornell.edu Wed Jan 17 13:10:55 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at cornell.edu (rohan.oberoi at cornell.edu) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:10:55 -0500 Subject: Calcutta/Kolkatta Message-ID: [ moderator edited ] >Calcutta is now Kolkatta in the latest Indian news. Mumbai has been around >for a long time, as Chennai for Madras. The early Brits had a hard time >with pronouncing Indian names, although they didn't to have much trouble >with Delhi (which hasn't changed). ;) My family is from Calcutta/Kolkatta. >My mother's maiden name was Basu, but changed to Bose, because it would be >easier for the Brits to pronounce. But she hasn't changed her maiden name >spelling ... yet! ;) > >Shilpi Misty Bhadra The problematic nature of these exercises is well illustrated by Shilpi's transcription of the new name as Kolkatta. While her double 't' is more (though hardly completely) faithful to the Bengali pronunciation, it's wrong. The new 'official' name is 'Kolkata'. Transcribing it in what many see (wrongly) as India's 'national' language would give something closer to 'Kalkatta'. But, since there is no good mapping of the sounds of Indian languages to a Roman alphabet that is in general use for writing (other than in a few specialised applications, like the names of Hindi films), no solution based on a Roman alphabet will work. I think it is therefore an extreme oversimplification, Shilpi, to say that this is a matter of Brits having trouble with Indian names. They certainly did, but Indians have as much trouble with Indian names; I have yet to meet an Indian non-Bengali-speaker who uses an 'o' instead of an 'a' in the first syllable of Calcutta (however spelt). I have tried (and failed) to understand why changing the 'official' English version is such an issue in India. It definitely has something to do with the unique linguistic/political status of English in South Asia, and probably with some national insecurities tied in to that. After all, you don't see the the Russians agitating for Moscow to be changed to Moskva, the Poles for Warsaw to be changed to Varshava, or the Italians for Rome to be changed to Roma. In those cases, I believe, the authoritative and official version is regarded as the the one in the local language and script, and all other versions in foreign languages are accepted as convenience dictates. But, for Calcutta, declaring that the official name will be the city's name as written in the Bengali (sorry, Bangla) script is not an option because the Central government would never accept the precedent. Nor is declaring it the name as written in Hindi in the Devanagari script, because the Bengalis would never accept that. Hence the unsatisfactory compromise of Kolkata. Most Indians had never heard of Chennai before the name was changed, and the majority of non-Maharashtrians do not seem to use the name 'Mumbai' to this day. (Also, Punjabis generally refer to all South Indians as 'Madrasis', a perfectly reasonable nomenclature derived from the time when most of South India was part of the Madras Presidency, and Chennai is very unlikely to make much headway against this). Finally, the Brits quite certainly did have trouble with Delhi, which is the only city in India that could make a good case for a reversion, precisely because it was the only one of the four (Bangalore being a recent upstart) that became a metropolis before and without British occupation. (Calcutta, Madras and Bombay were all 'greenfield' developments by the British -- there was nothing there before the development of British factories and administrative capitals, to say nothing of the security offered to traders by British arms -- it is not a coincidence that Bombay eclipsed Surat precisely at the time when the Mughals were no longer there to defend the latter city, which was twice sacked by Shivaji). The old pronunciation of Delhi could be roughly transcribed 'Dehli' (Urdu poets from Delhi would take the name Dehlavi); this pronunciation, I can report, is still the standard one in use by West Punjabis. The new one in Indian languages is more like 'Dilli' (or Dylli). As an aside, Shilpi, the Bengalis really don't have much of a case against the British for being unable to pronounce 'Basu' (or 'Chattopadhyay'), considering that most Bengalis still refer to Sikhs as "Shiks". Sorry, this is probably more appropriate for an Indology list, though the languages are all certainly Indo-European. :) cheers, Rohan. From connolly at memphis.edu Mon Jan 15 22:59:27 2001 From: connolly at memphis.edu (Leo A. Connolly) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:59:27 +0000 Subject: la leche (was: Re: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro..).. Message-ID: > Leo Connolly wrote: > >The larger question is why we have _leche_ (as well as It. _latte_, Fr. > >_lait_ when there was no **_lactem_ so long as the word was neuter. But if > >_lactem_ developed, then gender reassignment would be a must, and formally > >there would have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. Why > >shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, it's > >the masculine forms that need explaining. > Diogo Almeida wrote: > I'm no specialist and I don't know what was the vulgar latin or the early > romance word for milk on the Peninsula at that time, but my latin dictionary > gives "lacte, is" for milk (and "lac" as an archaic form). I think that > "lactem" then, would have been the accusative form (I have to rely on my > memory, though, since I don't have any Latin grammar with me :) ). > Portuguese, as a general rule, got the accusative form of latin words. So > "lactem" being the accusative, it seems likely that the word in Portuguese > developed from that form (I don't have an etymological dictionary with me, > though). And since neuter was absorbed by the masculine gender in general > (at least in Portuguese, I don't know about Spanish), i don't see any > problems with "leite" being masculine. On the other hand, "leche" as > feminine is strange to me, especially because Portuguese and Spanish > normally agree when it comes to the gender of the words. I'm no specialist either (Germanic philology is my thing, at least officially). But my Latin dictionary (an old Cassell's from the 1930s) lists only _lac_, not _lacte_. Still, it is conceivable that _lacte_ arose in Vulgar Latin, and it would be a perfectly good ancestor of _leche_ et al. Connolly again: >"formally there would have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. > >Why shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, > >it's the masculine forms that need explaining." Diogo again: > If the gender systems of Portuguese and Spanish were mainly semantically > driven, maybe. But they aren't. There is a strong formal element in gender > assingment in these languages. And as I said before, I think that neuter > words become masculine in Portuguese most of the time (and I guess this is > also true for Spanish). Well, yes -- the point is that in the Latin third declension, masculine and feminine forms are normally indistinguishable, so that the word for 'forehead' is _frons, frontis_ (feminine) and for 'mountain' _mons, montis_ (masculine). The reason why Latin neuters usually become masculine in Romance is that most belong to the second declension, otherwise the home of many masculine nouns and only a few feminines, from which they differed only in the nominative singular and nominative accusative plural. There were no first-declension neuters, so they had no particular to turn feminine along with most of the rest of that declension. Some third-declension neuters ended up *looking* masculine: _corpus_ 'body' looked suspiciously like a second-declension masculine nominative, so it is no surprise to find Spanish _cuerpo_ masculine rather than feminine. But there were no third-declension neuters that *looked* feminine. Still, I had no trouble finding one that is now feminine in Spanish: _u:ber_ (gen. _u:beris_) 'udder, teat, breat' has yielded _la ubre_ 'udder'. Are we surprised? We shouldn't be, just as we are not surprised that the formally ambiguous Latin _penis_ is masculine rather than feminine. This from a non-specialist. What do the experts say? Leo begin:vcard n:Connolly;Leo A. tel;fax:901-678-5338 tel;work:901-362-9178 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:connolly at memphis.edu x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Leo A. Connolly end:vcard From edsel at glo.be Tue Jan 16 12:23:06 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:23:06 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G Kilday" Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 12:19 PM [snip] > 3 of the 4 possible variations of /a:e/ > correspondence are found in presumed substratal words: > Lat. cerrus, It. cerro, Sp. carrasco 'holm-oak' > Lat. larix, It. larice, Sp. alerce 'larch' > Lat. betula, It. betulla, Sp. abedul 'birch' > It. cheppia, Sp. sa'balo, saboga, saboca 'shad' > These are practically the only examples I have, so I don't know whether the > vowel-alternation and prosthetic /a/ are strictly determined by phonetic > environment. [snip] > DGK [Ed] In the case of Castilian you have to take into account the Arab influence: sometimes words of Romance origin were adopted by the Spanish-Arab population and then got back into Castilian in their arabicized form, often with the definite article al- (and its alternate forms, depending on the assimilation of the initial "sun" consonant of the following word) attached to it. is such a case: actually , possibly via some Arabic form **al-lars vel sim.. is possibly a simplification of *al-bedul (no assimilation: b is a "moon" letter). I don't think these a's are prosthetic/epenthetic like the e of . Note also that Arabic has not really a vowel /e/, except in some regional speech, nor /o/. In the transition to Spanish, the Arabic vowels often undergo surprising changes, or are added. Examples: from Lat. castra, via al-kasr. Cast. Alicante from Lat. Lucentum, via al-(lu)kant, but in Catalan: Alacant; it is pretty strange that Lat. c suvived as /k/, since the Arabs came there (713 A.D.) after the palatalization of Lat. c (unless some regional peculiarity intervened, like an early dialectal /e/ > /a/, or maybe the Iberian name that served as a substrate to Latin had an /a/ - I really don't know). has all the characteristics of a somewhat complicated origin: it is almost certainly a compound, with the suffix -(V)sco, which can be IE but just as well Iberian or Basque, even though that wouldn't affect its meaning. I would guess that the Latin form is derived from a substrate word with /a/. The Spanish word cannot possibly be derived directly from the late-Latin form, because the Latin c would have become /T/ (English th), not /k/ [In Sp. cerro means 'small mountain, hill']. On the other hand, no such objection exists for It. cerro. Could and Lat. cerrus /kerrus/ be related to a pre-IE root and/or Celtic, for a certain type of mountain landscape? In such case, the suffix -sko would make a lot of sense. Just a thought. Ed. Selleslagh From miskec4096 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 16 21:25:15 2001 From: miskec4096 at hotmail.com (Kreso Megyeral) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 22:25:15 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: >I'm no specialist and I don't know what was the vulgar latin or the early >romance word for milk on the Peninsula at that time, but my latin dictionary >gives "lacte, is" for milk (and "lac" as an archaic form). I think that >"lactem" then, would have been the accusative form (I have to rely on my >memory, though, since I don't have any Latin grammar with me :) ). It can't, since all the nouns ending on -e are still neuter in Latin. From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Tue Jan 16 21:54:49 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:54:49 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [snip] >>[RMCC] >> [snip] re: Spanish sabueso "bloodhound" [snip] >I would guess directly from substrate. Otherwise the /a/ of the first >syllable is also hard to derive from Latin /e/. The first "u" of segusius is >presumed long on the basis of "grecizzato" egousia, which I neglected to >mention in my posting. 3 of the 4 possible variations of /a:e/ >correspondence are found in presumed substratal words: > Lat. cerrus, It. cerro, Sp. carrasco 'holm-oak' > Lat. larix, It. larice, Sp. alerce 'larch' > Lat. betula, It. betulla, Sp. abedul 'birch' > It. cheppia, Sp. sa'balo, saboga, saboca 'shad' carrasco is a real can of worms It resembles Latin quercus "oak" and various *garr-, *karr- words for "hard" enough to fire people up but the clues are complicated. also Spanish la/rice for "larch" I'm guessing that both alerce and abedul are via Mozarabic Here's what I've found on "larch" lárice, alerce "larch" < Latin larix, larice (f., m.) "mélèze", "resin de mélèze" [Ernout & Meillet 1939: 524; Migliorini 1966: 60] < Latin larix, laricem (acc.) "larch" [Partridge 1958: 337] < ? Alpine language, Celtic? [Ernout & Meillet 1939: 524] < larik- [Partridge 1958: 337] < Celtic, Alpine language [Partridge 1958: 337] see German Lärche, MHG lerche < Latin [Partridge 1958: 337] I'd expect something like *bedoja or *bedolla as cognate to Italian betulla or maybe *bedola from Latin *betula (with short /i/) Here's what Corominas has to say re: Spanish sa/balo sa/balo "shad" c. 1330 [Corominas 1980] savalus 961 [Corominas 1980] see Portuguese sável 1223; Catalan & Aragonese savoga 1335, saboca [Corominas 1980] < ? Celtic samos "summer" [Corominas 1980] < *sabolos [Corominas 1980] < *sabauca [Corominas 1980] < samauca; -m- > -b- typical of Celtic [Corominas 1980] < ? Great Britain [Corominas 1980] Italian cheppia definitely looks out of place in regard to Corominas's entry If they came into Spanish via Mozarabic, the vowels may have been affected by the Arabic vowel system. But someone more versed in Mozarabic would have to confirm [or deny] that. [snip] >> So Alessio proposed the Lusitanians = "IE Ligurians" = Illyrians >>hypothesis? By "IE Ligurians", I mean the non-Celtic, non-Italic IE >>speakers of N Italy & S France >> I've also seen claims that the Sikani themselves were Ligurians >>based on toponymic similarities between names in Sicily and Liguria The IE vs. non-IE "Ligurians" are a headache. I liked Corominas's use of Sorotaptic but does anyone else use it? [snip] I think Pallottini equated non-Celtic, non-Italic IE-speakers with "Ligurians" back in the 30s or 40s >In my own humble view, the Siculi probably represent the first wave of >IE-speakers into Italy, responsible for forms in which PIE medial *dh has >become /t/ (Aitne/Aetna, Rutuli, Liternum/Leuternon, and probably the source >of Etr. lautni 'freedman'). Thucydides (VI.2.4) says there were still some >Siculi in Italy in his time. The Sicani claimed to be Iberians, but if this >term is understood geographically, they might be identifiable with the >non-Celtic, non-Italic IE-speakers of Liguria, and their later migration to >Sicily might explain the similarity of toponyms. [snip] >DGK Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From miskec4096 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 17 23:10:10 2001 From: miskec4096 at hotmail.com (Kreso Megyeral) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:10:10 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: Rick McAllister wrote: >How common is this phenomenon in other Romance >languages and other other languages with grammatical gender? Interesting thing with disappearing of Latin neuter nouns happens in Romanian. Romanian actually has neuter gender, but in singular forms it's equal to masculine, while in plural to feminine. Even the definite article, which is postpositive in Romanian, doesn't have its own form, but follows the same pattern. In one Spanish grammar written in Croatian I found that there are still some words in Spanish considered neuter (of course, not "leche") that express collectives or some young animals. The article quoted is LO. Is it indeed, or is it some interpretation of the author? From acnasvers at hotmail.com Sun Jan 21 03:54:24 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:54:24 -0000 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: Leo A. Connolly (10 Jan 2001) wrote: >The larger question is why we have _leche_ (as well as It. _latte_, Fr. _lait_ >when there was no **_lactem_ so long as the word was neuter. But if _lactem_ >developed, then gender reassignment would be a must, and formally there would >have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. Why shouldn't a >product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, it's the masculine >forms that need explaining. Some brief comments: First, *lactem is not required to explain the /t/ in the Romance forms. Varro used the neuter : lactuca [dicitur] a lacte, quod holus id habet lact (L.L. V.21.3). Caesar reputedly scoffed at on the grounds that no Latin word could end in two stops, but it is reasonable that was the form in common use while belonged strictly to the urban dialect of Rome. Second, if the word for 'milk' had been de-neutered to *lactis, it would have had the same form as the established word for 'intestine': ita cibi vacivitate venio lassis lactibus (Plaut. Curc. 319); fundolum a fundo, quod non ut reliquae lactes, sed ex una parte sola apertum (Varr. L.L. V.22.7). Third, terms denoting products, attributes, or appendages of a particular "natural" gender which carry a different "grammatical" gender are too numerous to list here (and some are inappropriate for general audiences). DGK From anthony.appleyard at UMIST.AC.UK Fri Jan 19 08:41:41 2001 From: anthony.appleyard at UMIST.AC.UK (anthony.appleyard@umist.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:41:41 -0500 Subject: Pre-PIE as a PIE substrate? Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:44:37 +0200, Ante Aikio wrote: > However, there are lexical correspondences between western Uralic and > Germanic which have no further etymologies in either language family, e.g. > Germ. *saiwa- ~ Samic *saajvê 'fresh water', > Finnic *kauka- 'long' ~ Germ. *hauha- 'high', > Germ. *ailda- 'fire' ~ Samic *aaltê-nkê-ssê 'lightning'. > But all of these can be explained as borrowings in one direction or the > other, so there is no special reason to asssume separate borrowing from > some substrate language in these cases. Please where can I find a complete list of these words which are found in both Germanic and western Uralic? Someone said in gothic-l at egroups.com that archaeologies ancestral to the modern South Saami (= Lappish) culture have been found in all of Scandinavia dand as far south as Hamburg in Germany. If so, then perhaps in South Saamic we have a living descendant of one of the many aboriginal substratum languages that incoming Indo-European overrode so long ago, and the above words and their like are pre-IE substratum words. If Finno-Ugrian languages were once spoken in all Scandinavia and Denmark and a long way into Schleswig-Holstein, then their speakers in those southern areas would have changed from tundra hunters to a denser population and more settled mode of life as the climate got warmer as the Ice Age ended and then farming and livestock herding came in. That increases the chance that Germanic started as Indo-European spoken with a "south coast of the Baltic" type Finno-Ugrian accent. That might also explain peculiar Germanic features such as weak-type adjectives declining different from 1st and 2nd declension nouns. Perhaps also, Balto-Slavonic (Lithuanian etc) started as IE spoken with a "south-east coast of the Baltic" Finno-Ugrian accent; Estonian and Livonian would be the nearest living relatives of that area's pre-IE substratum. From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Tue Jan 23 08:37:37 2001 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:37:37 GMT Subject: words specific to Saamic / Finnish and Germanic Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Rick Mc Callister wrote: > Does any of this substrate overlap with the so-called "Baltic" > substrate in Germanic; i.e. words of non-IE, non-Uralic origin such as > ship, sea, seal (animal), etc.? English "ship", Germanic "skip-", seems to have a relative in Greek: {skaphos}. Also, Greek {skapto:} = "I dig"; the connection is likely via dugout canoes (made by hollowing out a big single log). Ante Aikio wrote on Mon 6 Nov 2000 at 18:44:37 +0200 (Subject: Re: Pre-PIE as a PIE substrate?):- > However, there are lexical correspondences between western Uralic and > Germanic which have no further etymologies in either language family, e.g. > Germ. *saiwa- ~ Samic *saajvê 'fresh water', > Finnic *kauka- 'long' ~ Germ. *hauha- 'high', > Germ. *ailda- 'fire' ~ Samic *aaltê-nkê-ssê 'lightning'. ... Please where can I get a complete list of these "Germanic and Finno-Ugrian only" words? Someone on Gothic-L says that archaeology which is a lineal ancestor of modern Saamic (= Lappish) has been found as far south as Hamburg in Germany. If this means that an ancestor of Saamic was once spoken in all Scandinavia and Denmark and well into Schleswig-Holstein, then Germanic could have started as IE spoken with a Saami accent even if it developed south of the Baltic Sea. From acnasvers at hotmail.com Tue Jan 23 20:04:06 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:04:06 -0000 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. Message-ID: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (10 Jan 2001) wrote: >[DGK] > >I would add the tail-end of "five"; Goth. suggests Early PIE *pempwe. >[MCV] >It would be a candidate, were it not that I rather like the idea of >*pen-kwe "...and five" (an etymology similar to that of "ampersand"). [DGK] If the second syllable is indeed the enclitic 'and', the first syllable is more likely in my opinion to be 'one', with a "full hand" of four (*oktom?) understood. I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't *perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have *firf-trees. Is there any objection to *-kwe coming from *-pwe? Does this enclitic appear in Hittite? From jer at cphling.dk Thu Jan 25 15:38:16 2001 From: jer at cphling.dk (Jens Elmegaard Rasmussen) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:38:16 +0100 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Douglas G Kilday wrote: > I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic > forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the > Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't > *perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have > *firf-trees. > Is there any objection to *-kwe coming from *-pwe? Does this enclitic appear > in Hittite? Hitt. has (at least) kuis-ki 'every' = Lat. quis-que, cf. Luvian kuis-ha (-ha 'and'; also Lycian tise : se 'and'). Whatever the full history, the protoform must have contained a velar element in the enclitic part. The story of Germanic *fimf is different from *pen{kw}e > Italo-Celtic *{kw}en{kw}e and *pe{kw}- > *{kw}e{kw}-. The Germanic event is restricted to the one word 'five' which of course follows 'four' in counting, this giving the array *xw-{th}w--f-xw in which the xw's changed to f, no doubt by assimilation, given the nature of [f] as something very close to a "rounded thorn". Jens From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 25 16:11:07 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:11:07 -0600 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. Message-ID: > I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic > forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the > Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't > *perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have > *firf-trees. What about Greek /pente/ and Sanskrit /panca/, which do indeed seem to contain the respective reflexes of PIE /que/ (more or less) meaning 'and'? As for the non-existence of "firf" trees, all I can suggest is that numbers are sometimes subject to processes (mostly analogical) that do not affect ordinary words. In this case, the "sing-song" rhythm of counting may have encouraged something not unlike reduplication (or internal alliteration). (/ini, mini, maini, mo/). Dr. David L. White From mcv at wxs.nl Thu Jan 25 17:42:52 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:42:52 +0100 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:04:06 -0000, "Douglas G Kilday" wrote: >I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic >forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the >Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't >*perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have >*firf-trees. >Is there any objection to *-kwe coming from *-pwe? Does this enclitic appear >in Hittite? If we assume, as is reasonable, that it's the same suffix: Hitt. kuiski "whosoever", Goth. hwaz-uh/hwo:-h/hwa-h, Lat. quisque. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 25 18:23:02 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:23:02 +0100 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G Kilday" Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 9:04 PM > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (10 Jan 2001) wrote: >> [DGK] >>> I would add the tail-end of "five"; Goth. suggests Early PIE >>> *pempwe. >> [MCV] >> It would be a candidate, were it not that I rather like the idea of *pen-kwe >> "...and five" (an etymology similar to that of "ampersand"). > [DGK] > If the second syllable is indeed the enclitic 'and', the first syllable is > more likely in my opinion to be 'one', with a "full hand" of four (*oktom?) > understood. [Ed] Why not 'and [a] thumb'? > I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic > forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the > Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't > *perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have > *firf-trees. [Ed] In P-Italic you have p_p_('pompe'). On the other hand, not all Germanic has f_f_: Swedish 'femt', mirroring Greek 'pente' (NGr. 'pende'), where t < *kw. As a non-specialist, I'm really confused. Help! Ed Selleslagh From cjustus at mail.utexas.edu Sat Jan 27 13:54:31 2001 From: cjustus at mail.utexas.edu (Carol F. Justus) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 07:54:31 -0600 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ moderator snip ] >Is there any objection to *-kwe coming from *-pwe? Does this enclitic appear >in Hittite? *-kwe appears in Hittite as the suffix -ku ... -ku 'whether ... or'. Carol Justus From hwhatting at hotmail.com Tue Jan 30 12:03:16 2001 From: hwhatting at hotmail.com (Hans-Werner Hatting) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:03:16 +0100 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:04:06 -0000 Douglas G Kilday wrote: >I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic >forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the >Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't >*perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have >*firf-trees. >From the reflexes in IE languages I can remember offhand, Indo-Iranian, Greek, q-Italic, and q-Celtic require a PIE */kw/. Of course, one can operate with different stages of PIE to account for irregularities, to unite forms which seem to belong together, or to establish links to other language families. But in the case of "5", we do not really need a Pre-PIE */pw/. To me, the assimilation theory looks satisfyingly convincing, and we have the correspondent assimilation (only the other way round) in Latin and q-Celtic. And assimilations are often singular items, not being consequently applied to all the material in a language. Anyway, the proposed sound change **/pw/ > */kw/ looks unusual to me. We have a lot of /kw/ > /p/ in IE languages, but does anybody know of instances (except assimilation) for the change proposed by Douglas Kilday? A further argument for an old /kw/ is the nasal. By PIE phonological rules, we would expect /m/ before /p/. But the Gmc. languages have mostly the reflexes of /n/, which is possible before labiovelars like /kw/ (probably being realised as (ng)), but not before true labials. Later occurences of /m/ in Gmc. languages can be easily explained as assimilations. DGK: >Is there any objection to *-kwe coming from *-pwe? If You don4t accept Gmc. /f/ out of */kw/, but retract all instances of it to a */pw/, You cannot link the second element of "5" with the eclitic PIE *-kwe, as it is conserved in Gmc. as Gothic _-uh_, so it should contain PIE /kw/ even in Your model. For my part, I think it4s simpler to assume that the reflexes of PIE /kw/ occasionally merged with those of /p/ in some stage of Proto-Gmc. under the influence of labial consonants in the same word. Best regards, Hans-Werner Hatting From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 25 17:34:55 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:34:55 -0600 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: The argument that the Lemnians were from Etruria is convincing only if we disregard one principle and three facts. The principle is that shared archaisms are not indicative of close connection. To make it clear why this is so, let us imagine that we have three groups, A-B-C, arrayed in approximately that geographic order. If group B then innovates away from groups A and C, leaving these with (relatively) archaic features in common, then failure to recognize the validity of the principle just given will result in the belief that A and C share some close connection, when they do not. I cannot resist (re-)noting that the principle applies to living things as much as to languages (and alphabets). For example, recent opinion inclines toward the view that the stripes of zebras are an archaism, that at some point in the past all equids had stripes. If this is so, then zebras (there are at least three species) do not form a sub-group within equids, and are not to be connected with each other. The principle is therefore valid in a manner that might be called "modality independent". The three facts are that 1) the use of a zig-zag sibilant, 2) the use of "H" as a fricative, and 3) the use of vau (or anything) for /w/ are all archaisms. (The use of a psi-shaped sign for "chi" may well be too, I don't know.) The use of a zig-zag sign for a sibilant (apparently /ts/) appears also in Mantinean, where to my knowledge nobody connects it with influence from Italy, or even Euboea. It is simply an archaism, due largely to Mantinea's somewhat isolated position in the interior of the Peloponessus. The innovations noted were all characteristic of what might be called Aegean Greek, and there is no reason to think that they should have made it across the language boundary into Lemnian, anymore than that they should have made it into Italian Greek or Mantinean. They are also too late to have much to do with a posited migration from the Aegean (or its eastern coast) to Italy. The Phrygians and the Trojans (or their displaced descendants) belong to significantly different periods of NW Anatolian history, and there is little reason to think that their alphabets would have showed any especially close relation. In any event, as MCV notes, the attempt to argue that because the alphabet is Euboean it must be Italian is more than a little strained to begin with. Furthermore, the view presented totally ignores the presence of the Turshas, who seem to bear the same name as the Tursenoi, raiding in the Nile Delta (and perhaps under the name Philistines similarly distresing the Hebrews) during the Aegean Dark Ages, roughly 1200-800. I have not exactly memorized Egyptian historical records, but I think they rule out the possibility that the Turshas were the descendants of Italian colonizers of Lemnos about 600, and it is scarcely likely that true Tuscans were raiding the Eastern Mediterranean at any period. Under the view presented, the time and place of the Turshas do not match up, for if one is right the other is wrong, so that we are left with little alternative but to deny that there is any connection between the names. The seemingly Italian features in Lemnian could be due, as MCV suggests, to independent influences. The change of /pt/ to /ft/ is fairly natural (is is known from Icelandic) and could have occurred in virtually any IE language. Likewise feminine /i/ is known from both Greek and Sanskrit, and so is hardly a reliable indicator of Italian provenance. Nonetheless, I would guess that in this case the things noted are borrowing from Italian Etruscan into Lemnian, due to continuned contact between colonies and "mother-city" of a sort well-attested from this period. The Greek colonies generally made a point of keeping in contact with their mother cities, and so did Carthage. There is no reason to think that Lemnian (or "Turshan") colonies in Italy would not have done the same. In other words, just as with modern British and American English, it is not necessarily the case that true separation has occurred, and borrowings might well have jumped the gap. It is a little odd that a word for grandson/nephew should be one of them, since this would appear to be a semi-basic kinship term, but there is no denying that English borrowed its version of the word in question from French, so however strange it may seem, such borowing has been known to happen. And a change of /ft/ to /fot/ (if /f/ is what "ph" means) would not be that strange: for vowels to be inserted into sequences regarded as difficult, taking on the color (in this case labial) of an adjacent consonant is fairly normal. But I return to the names. If the original name was /trosha/ or /trusha/ (in a language that did not distinguish /u/ and /o/ there is no meaningful distinction), then we might expect some difference of opinion about 1) what to do with the /r/ in languages that did not permit /tr/, 2) whether to borrow with /o/ or /u/, and 2) how to render /sh/ in languages that did not have /sh/. Among the options for the first might be 1) to metathsize (Tursha, Tursenoi (from Egyptian?)), to delete (Tuscan), or to prefix (Etruscan, Etruria). Among the options for the last might be 1) /sk/ (Etruscan, Tuscan), 2 /si/ (Etruria, Troia (with later loss of /s/), and 3) /s/ (Tursenoi). All these are variants of the same name. To split off "Tursha" and "Troia" from the rest is unwarranted. They fit in as well as any of the others, which are universally acknowledged to represent variants of the same name. Nor is it necessarily naive to imagine that the legends in question, like Icelandic sagas, medieval Saints' Lives, or for that matter the Homeric epics, might well have a considerable element of truth in them, without being wholly true. It would be nice to imagine that such works could either be regarded as wholly reliable or wholly unreliable, nice but also simplistic. The legends are evidence, just of an annoyingly equivocal sort. It should be noted as well that much of Herodotus is technically in indirect discourse. No particular disbelief is necessarily implied by any given instance. Dr. David L. White From mcv at wxs.nl Fri Jan 26 15:07:33 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:07:33 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:30:05 +0100, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: >I'm personally convinced that the name of the deceased is "S'ivai", as >the central message of the stele seems to be (repeated twice: in the >front center, and on the side): S'ivai evistho S'eronaith sialchveis' >avis' maras'm av[is' ais'] / S'ivai avis' sialchvis' maras'm avis' >aomai [approxiamtely: "Sivai, "evistho" in Seruna, of years 60[?] >and[?] 5[?] years died[?]"]. One further thought: if we link the words and on the stele to Etruscan "referee, judge", a plausible hypothesis would be that the deceased's function (performed "for Holaie the Phokaian", whose "naphoth" he was, in a place called "Serona") would have something to do with the administration of justice (despite the spear and shield(?) with which he is depicted). Now <(h)isto:r> (*wid-tor-) is (Homeric) Greek for "judge", but I wonder if there is an attestation in Ancient Greek of a magistrature *, as this would fit very well with Lemnian (the -r may have been weak in the Greek source dialect, or dispensed with in Lemnian if the plural suffix in that language was -r, as it is in Etruscan). ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From acnasvers at hotmail.com Sun Jan 28 04:47:56 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 04:47:56 -0000 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Steve Gustafson (15 Jan 2001) wrote: >But my understanding is that the business of the reconstruction of the IE >noun case system reveals a number of both stillborn and fossil cases that, >had they been generalised, would have added to the number of cases >recoverable. Moreover, my recollection is that the existence of languages >with otherwise conservative morphology, like Greek, Gothic, and Hittite, >that never seem to have had the full complement of Sanskrit cases, and the >strongly different system that prevails in the Tocharian languages, has led >some to suggest that the PIE cases may have been added to, rather than >subtracted from. Yes, Tocharian shows that (Early) PIE must have had a rich variety of morphemes capable of forming case-suffixes and verbal endings. >The Sanskrit, Celtic, and Latin cases that are formed in the plural on *-bh- >seem to be elaborations on a common suffix, at least somewhat comparable to >the Etruscan cases. Germanic and Slavic apparently used a different suffix, >*-m-, and Slavic may have worked it the same way. This suggests to me, that >the PIE cases may once have had agglutinative features, and that we can still >see part of the process by which they were built up. This is certainly reasonable; some of the suffixes look like composites. The real puzzle is why PIE (or its descendents) should have abandoned agglutinative morphology in favor of a mixed bag of suffixes, apparently discarding perfectly good composites. Do any Uralists have examples of agglutinative languages moving toward "fusional" case-morphology? Or perhaps PIE was never fully agglutinative, the process of establishing composite suffixes as case-markers being interrupted before completion? >Moreover, the *bh- suffix has been fossilized in Greek words like -thyrephi-, >"outside." This was once a productive instrumental style case in Greek, as >revealed in Mycenean ko-ru-pi, "with helmets," and po-ni-ki-pi, "using purple >dye." This suffix was still productive in Epic Greek; e.g. 'with horses and chariots' (Hom. Od. IV.533). >I may be a certifiable kook [and I cheerfully confess, no more than an >interested amateur], but it seems that the Etruscan noun morphology --- though >it has obviously been substantially reshaped --- does not rule out that there >may be a common ancestor between PIE and Etruscan. I would not speculate that >Etruscan is a direct descendant of PIE. Etruscan strikes me as interesting, >in that it seems a logical place to -test- theories about super-families. What I mean by "certifiable kooks" are those who derive Etruscan from Hebrew, Serbian, Ukrainian, Turkish, etc. on the basis of arbitrary and capricious impressionism. Serious comparative work requires systematic tables of sound-correspondences. Kooks have no comprehension of seriousness and their theories turn sound-change into a haphazard chaos which, as we know from IE studies, does not reflect reality. Wherever the Etruscans may have been between (say) 2500 BCE and 700, when their inscriptions started, it is likely that they were never very far from communities of IE-speakers. Etruscan words that look like IE may have been borrowed from IE. This is why I say that a "deeper knowledge" of the Etruscan vocabulary is required. In order to set up sound-tables between PIE and Proto-Tyrrhenian, we need a set of words which we reasonably believe to be "native" Etruscan, so that we are not just comparing PIE sounds with their own reflexes in borrowed form. I think that not only Etruscan but also pre-IE substrates must be taken into account when attempting to construct super-families which include IE. Neglecting these lesser-known languages amounts to (pardon the expression) not playing with a full deck. DGK From acnasvers at hotmail.com Tue Jan 30 20:55:32 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:55:32 -0000 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (16 Jan 2001) wrote: [snip of DGK's material on Lemnian alphabet] >But Lemnos is only 50km or so off the Chalcidian coast. It is >definitely not an Ionian, Aeolic or Cycladic island. In fact, the >surprising thing would be if the alphabet did *not* belong to the >Euboico-Chalcidian family. Lemnos is about the same distance from the Troad, so the Phrygian alphabet would not be surprising here. In fact, if the Lemno-Tyrrhenians were the relic of a great migration from Anatolia (which I have been arguing against) it would be surprising if they had severed all ties with their homeland and gone in the other direction to get an alphabet. I now think the Lemno-Tyrrhenians were probably the offshoot of a Tyrrhenian community living in Acte, the easternmost peninsula of Chalcidice, along with other non-Hellenes (Thuc. IV.109). Despite de Simone's doubts, I find it most plausible that they acquired the alphabet in Chalcidice (or perhaps Euboea), not in Italy. To my knowledge, no Etruscan inscriptions found in Italy use the peculiar conventions of the Lemnian alphabet (O instead of U, L with upper stroke, treatment of sibilants). >Larissa Bonfante says the word [nefts] was borrowed in Etruscan from Latin, >and in fact it might have been borrowed from any Indo-European >language having a reflex of *nepot-, including Greek (Homeric >) or even Carian ( or "child", if I can >trust Woudhuizen's sources [Meriggi]). So this word is rather >inconclusive, except that it's obviously easier to go from >to than the other way around. Good point. I can't prove that was picked up in Italy. Given the proximity of other IE languages from which it might have been borrowed, I must admit its presence on the stele is inconclusive. >> The stele also contains , evidently the name of >> the honored/deceased in regular Etruscan form: Aker = praenomen, Tavars'io >> = gentilicium, Vanalasial = metronymic. >The two lines are usually read: "vanalasial s'eronai morinail / aker >tavars'io" (I'm sure there's a reason for reading "vanalasial", but on >every copy I've seen, what I read is: "va.m.ala.sial: >s'eronaimorinail"). There is no compelling reason not to accept your >alternative reading "Aker Tavars'io / Vanalasial S'eronai Morinail", >but if the first 3 words are the name of the deceased, what is the >meaning of , apparently the genitive of "in Seruna, >in Murina"? My reading of these two lines follows Ribezzo and Buffa. The reverse order is the "lectio difficilior". Looking at the crude copy in my possession, I see that is compressed with respect to in order to fit between the latter and the horizontal . It is clear that was written before the vertical inscriptions, and that the writer considered top-to-bottom (from his viewpoint) the normal order for lines of text. (The vertical inscriptions, both etc. and etc., show that the writer regarded right-to-left as the default direction, so cannot start the horizontal inscription and must end it.) Had been written first, it is unlikely that the writer would have stopped with and taken the chance on running out of room with in a closed space. On my crude copy, the third letter of exhibits a slight extension which might, but probably shouldn't, be interpreted as an additional stroke making it into M. Most authors who have seen the stele concur on reading N (for me, of course, "autopsia" is out of the question). As for the apparent interpuncts within words Pauli, in the first edition of the inscription (1886), did not regard them as functional. Lejeune (1957) thought they represented the syllabic punctuation characteristic of South Etrurian and Campanian inscriptions in the VI cent. BCE and argued for an interdependence between Etrurian and Lemnian writing systems. However, the points visible on my copy, particularly within , do not agree well with true syllabic punctuation, in which the points usually follow the first letter of a word (especially a vowel), divide two consonants within a word, or follow the whole word. They are best attributed here to the porosity of the stone. I don't *know* the meaning of , but if etc. is read as a man's name in PN-GN-MN format, what follows probably indicates his locality. We agree that is probably a locative and probably refers to the Lemnian town of Murina. is plausibly a proximate use of the comitative (cf. Rec. Etr. murce Capue 'served near Capua'). might stand for the genitive *morinaial. The meaning could be something like 'near S'eruna of Murina' = 'born near S'eruna which is in the district, or under the jurisdiction, of Murina'. >I'm personally convinced that the name of the deceased is "S'ivai", as >the central message of the stele seems to be (repeated twice: in the >front center, and on the side): S'ivai evistho S'eronaith sialchveis' >avis' maras'm av[is' ais'] / S'ivai avis' sialchvis' maras'm avis' >aomai [approxiamtely: "Sivai, "evistho" in Seruna, of years 60[?] >and[?] 5[?] years died[?]"]. I'm inclined to regard as cognate to Etr. , as several authors have suggested. has been controversial for over a century. Bugge, who considered Etruscan to be IE (closest to Armenian), rendered it 'lebend' on the basis of resemblance to , , etc. Cortsen scoffed at this and countered with 'tot'. Pallottino regarded as gen. pl. 'dei morti'. IMHO is most likely the gen. sg. of an abstract noun *ziva meaning 'sepulture, burial, funeral' or the like, or the honor of the funerary ritual. If so, Lemn. is probably an instrumental (or similar) use of the comitative meaning something like 'with interment', 'with a funeral', perhaps 'with honor'. >On the other hand, Lemnian shows little or no trace of the ubiquitous >Etruscan 3rd.p. preterit ending -ce (there is , but in view of >, one can doubt whether this is a verb or a >reference to Phocaea), and it is in fact impossible to recognize any >verbal form in Lemnian (maybe -io ?). Ubiquitous? Where do you find the suffix -ce on the Cippus Perusinus? (Okay, unfair question, the CP isn't a funerary monument.) I doubt that refers to Phocaea, as *Phokia would have constituted a single morpheme for the Lemnians. Had they borrowed the Greek word for 'seal', it is unlikely they would have used it in a solemn funerary inscription. I think is most likely a preterit, though I can't prove it. > The gap between and > has already been commented on. Neither nor occur in >this short fragment (and how would Lemnian have rendered ?), and >Etr. (no ) is Lemnian (no ) [this might merely be an >orthographic issue, in view of Morina=Murina]. The letter is found elsewhere on Lemnos, at Kabirion in the fragmentary inscription . If is indeed cognate with Etr. , it indicates that the convention at Kaminia was to hypodifferentiate the sibilants, using the zigzag which we choose to write for both phonemes written and in standard North Etr. orthography. Not having the sign 8 (transcribed ), the Lemnians might have used the digraphs FH or HF (transcribed , ) as in Etruscan of the VII cent. BCE, or they might have used phi (again hypodifferentiating, as later Greeks did with Latin ). The phoneme , however written, is not common in Archaic Etruscan and its absence from known Lemnian texts is not surprising. If /o/ and /u/ are not phonemically distinct, their representation is initially a matter of taste, subsequently one of custom. These are all orthographic issues. What they indicate is that the Lemno-Tyrrhenians acquired the alphabet independently of their relatives in Etruria. No sweeping conclusions about phonologic divergence should be attempted. > Lemnian in the >formula must surely be a numeral, but >fits none of the Etruscan ones (the only one that comes even remotely >close is "5", a little bit closer [but still remote] if we >consider the derivative "50", showing that the -ch was not >part of the root, but probably identical to -c(h) "and" [cf. PIE >*pen-kwe "... and 5"], so something like *mawa-k(h) "[... and ]5", >*mawa-alkh "50"). Surely a numeral? Surely non-numeric terms can stand next to words for 'year'! I'm personally skeptical about being derived from . Rix has suggested *machvalch <- *machv (the is superscript indicating labialization), but the process *uv <- *achv is otherwise unrecognized in Etruscan, hence completely "ad hoc". and are probably from distinct roots; likewise 'two' and 'twenty'. > In sum, I see little reason to think that Lemnian >differs only trivially from Etruscan, despite the fact that it is >clearly related to it. Whoa! I didn't intend by the term "dialect" to imply that the differences between Lemnian and mainland Archaic Etruscan should be dismissed as "trivial". The Lemnian stele fills in some of our knowledge of Archaic Etruscan, for example by providing the Archaic form of the decile suffix, which is unattested in Italy. From the comparative standpoint Lemnian is an *effective* dialect of Archaic Etruscan, whatever its *functional* status might have been in terms of mutual intelligibility with the Etrurians. My argument that the Lemno-Tyrrhenians came from Italy stands or falls with the interpretation of . If this is indeed a name in PN-GN-MN format, its only reasonable origin is west-central Italy. If these words mean something else, I would argue that the probable source of these Tyrrhenians was the upper Adriatic region. By far the most plausible hypothesis IMHO has the Etruscans entering Italy by the NE land-route. I repeat my contention that sea-migration from Anatolia has no solid evidence behind it. DGK From JoatSimeon at aol.com Thu Jan 25 20:00:59 2001 From: JoatSimeon at aol.com (JoatSimeon at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:00:59 EST Subject: Greek Gods Message-ID: In a message dated 1/25/01 1:54:41 AM Mountain Standard Time, dlwhite at texas.net writes: > more > Sorry. The statement I was thinking of referred only to the major > (12?) gods of the pantheon. > -- the JIES gave a PIE derivation for Hera some time ago, and for Hercules. Something to do with *iera, if my memory serves me correctly. From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Thu Jan 25 20:23:47 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:23:47 -0500 Subject: Pre-PIE as a PIE substrate? In-Reply-To: <200101251156.FAA04029@sunmuw1.MUW.Edu> Message-ID: I've come across references to (the animal) < OE seolh < Germanic *selhaz < ? Finnic (and I think maybe also , the Scottish sea critter) and < *airo < ? Finnic Maybe Ante can give us a Uralic opinion on these >Please where can I find a complete list of these words which are found in >both Germanic and western Uralic? [snip] Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From anaikio at mail.student.oulu.fi Fri Jan 26 08:08:52 2001 From: anaikio at mail.student.oulu.fi (Ante Aikio) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:08:52 +0200 Subject: Pre-PIE as a PIE substrate? In-Reply-To: <200101251216.OAA5082949@paju.oulu.fi> Message-ID: [I wrote] >>However, there are lexical correspondences between western Uralic and >>Germanic which have no further etymologies in either language family[.] [Anthony Appleyard] >Please where can I find a complete list of these words which are found in >both Germanic and western Uralic? Regrettably, nowhere. If you're interested in this, you must compile it yourself. You could e.g. start with going through the material in "Lexikon der älteren germanischen Lehnwörter in den ostseefinnischen Sprachen" by A.D. Kylstra et al, 1991-. But this dictionary does not present the etymologies of the Germanic loan originals, so you would need to check them in other sources. Moreover, only the first two volumes have been published so far, so only Finnish words from A to O are included. The rest could be checked in e.g. the new etymological dictionary "Suomen sanojen alkuperä" ('The origin of Finnish words'); however, the dictionary is in Finnish, so you have to know some Finnish in order to effectively use it. However, SSA does not include all the Germanic loan words, as its attitude towards loan etymologies seems to be a bit overcritical in general. However, an excellent book on the research of Germanic loan words in Finnic is Jorma Koivulehto's book "Verba Mutuata" (Mémoires de la Société Finno-Ougrienne #237) The book is in German and it contains 16 articles (some 450 pages in total) by him, dealing with IE-U contacts and focusing mostly on Finnic and Germanic. I can recommend this as the best introduction on the topic. >Someone said in gothic-l at egroups.com that archaeologies ancestral to the >modern South Saami (= Lappish) culture have been found in all of Scandinavia >dand as far south as Hamburg in Germany. If so, then perhaps in South Saamic >we have a living descendant of one of the many aboriginal substratum >languages that incoming Indo-European overrode so long ago, and the above >words and their like are pre-IE substratum words. If Finno-Ugrian languages >were once spoken in all Scandinavia and Denmark and a long way into >Schleswig-Holstein, then their speakers in those southern areas would have >changed from tundra hunters to a denser population and more settled mode of >life as the climate got warmer as the Ice Age ended and then farming and >livestock herding came in. Actually, the most coherent theory explains the Sami as Iron Age newcomers in the north and Scandinavia that spread from Southern / Mid-Finland and Carelia. This theory is supported by both archeological and linguistic evidence. And even though some scholars (notably Pekka Sammallahti) maintain that a Uralic language ancestral to Samic was spoken in Mid-Scandinavia, Northern Finland, and the Kola Peninsula already in the stone age, there is no evidence pointing to an earlier "Samic" inhabitation in Southern Scandinavia, let alone Denmark. But instead, there is overwhelming evidence (e.g. substrate toponyms borrowed into Finnic from Samic) for the view that the Samic "original home" stretched in the Bronze Age from inland Southern Finland to the east, at least to Lake Ladoga and Onega (the exact northern eastern borders have not been determined, as no one has done any systematic research on this; however, there seem to be several very Samic-looking toponyms even east of Onega). Moreover, the ideas you refer to above seem to be linguistically anachronistic in the sense that it does not make sense to speak of "Samic" (let alone "South Sami", which is one of the ten Sami languages which quite recently diverged from Proto-Samic) on these time levels (the end of the Ice Age). Actually, even Proto-Uralic must be dated later, and it is quite certain that by the end of the Ice Age there were no Uralians anywhere in the vicinity of the Baltic Sea. Some researchers (e.g. Dolukhanov, Wiik, Nuñez) have proposed quite different scenarios, but these have been rejected by the majority of Uralists, as criticism has pointed out fatal flaws in the thoery. >That increases the chance that Germanic started >as Indo-European spoken with a "south coast of the Baltic" type Finno-Ugrian >accent. E.g. Kalevi Wiik has proposed several Uralic substrate features in Germanic, but his theory is very unconvincing; for criticism see e.g. Petri Kallio: "Uralic Substrate Features in Germanic?", Journal de la Socété Finno-Ougrienne 87. >That might also explain peculiar Germanic features such as weak-type >adjectives declining different from 1st and 2nd declension nouns. Could you elaborate, as my knowledge of Proto-Germanic is quite superficial? >Perhaps also, Balto-Slavonic (Lithuanian etc) started as IE spoken with a >"south-east coast of the Baltic" Finno-Ugrian accent; Estonian and Livonian >would be the nearest living relatives of that area's pre-IE substratum. The case for a Uralic substrate in Proto-Slavic is much stronger, but the evidence cannot be (at least as yet) concidered compelling. Regards, Ante Aikio From hwhatting at hotmail.com Tue Jan 30 08:40:09 2001 From: hwhatting at hotmail.com (Hans-Werner Hatting) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:40:09 +0100 Subject: words specific to Saamic / Finnish and Germanic Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:37:37 GMT Anthony Appleyard wrote: >English "ship", Germanic "skip-", seems to have a relative in Greek: >{skaphos}. Also, Greek {skapto:} = "I dig"; the connection is likely via >dugout canoes (made by hollowing out a big single log). The Gmc. cognates of these Greek words come most likely from the family of Engl. _shave_, German _schaben_ (Gk. /ph/ < PIE /bh/,/gwh/). If Gmc. _skip_ had a cognate in Greek, it ought to be along the lines of *sk(e/o)ib- . As _skip_ is one of the candidates for a loan from a substrate in Gmc., which is made more likely by the fact that PIE /b/ was very rare, so any Gmc. word with /p/ is suspect of being a loan from another (IE or non-IE language). For an IE substrate, we could accept a connection to _skapto:_. As I see this problem, it would be good if we were able to reconstruct one substrate or at least a sufficiently small number of substrate layers, with clear rules for their phonological relationship with PIE (or some other European language family). Otherwise we risk inventing a substrate for every word in Gmc. which cannot be accounted by with the normal sound changes from PIE, but which has a PIE feel about it. In a variation of an old rule - substrata non sunt multiplicanda. Best regards, H. W. Hatting From hwhatting at hotmail.com Tue Jan 30 07:29:55 2001 From: hwhatting at hotmail.com (Hans-Werner Hatting) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:29:55 +0100 Subject: Goths Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:19:21 -0600, David White wrote: >Harking back to an earlier emissive, I would like to know more about >how the name of the Goths is supposed to have been from two different > >agentnouns, each from a different ablaut grade. > It would also be good to know how the /o/ got there in Latin. > >One possibility is that the name (as it reached Latin) is indeed an >"other-name" from other Germanic, in which case /o/ rather than /u/ in a >past-participle of /geutan/ (more or less) would in fact be regular. Or, >to put it perhaps more clearly, the from with /o/ would be the non-Gothic >Germanic, whereas the form with /u/ would be the Gothic version. That the >Greeks were in contact with the Goths whereas the Romans were in contact >with other Germanic tribes might explain this difference, which as far as I >can see has no other explanation. Just a suggestion: We could have an o-Stem *gauta- (with o-grade of the root, a type widely attested for PIE and Gmc.),denoting the tribe, and an idividualising derived n-stem *guton-, denoting the members of the tribe. I would not worry much about Latin /o/ for Gmc. /u/, as at that time short /u/ and /o/ probably already had merged in Vulgar Latin. Best regards, H. W. Hatting From evenstar at mail.utexas.edu Fri Jan 26 00:59:24 2001 From: evenstar at mail.utexas.edu (Shilpi Misty Bhadra) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:59:24 -0600 Subject: Calcutta/Kolkatta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ moderator snip ] Dear Rohan, That was an excellent commentary on Kolkata. I have seen it written both Kolkatta and Kolkata (already), so that made it confusing. The fundamental problem is transcription of the language to Roman letters/sounds. Of course there are political issues. In Budapest, after the Hungarians got rid of communism and Soviet influence, they renamed every street that had a Russian name to a Hungarian one. I have been told by many a Hungarian that the older generation spoke and knew Russian, but most refuse to speak Russian now. They will speak in Hungarian or German. The Shik pronunciation is news to me. But then again, I don't know that many Bengalis and more of them say it than I know. No one (Brits, Bengalis, etc.)can pronounce every phoneme or sound in the world perfectly, and I fully understand that. That is why studying loanwords and how different cultures transliterate words is interesting. I hope I didn't offend anyone. I myself cannot do the -dn- cluster in Dnieper among many other sounds. I think that regardless of the name change, most people will pronounce or mispronounce the names. I think if people have been using a name for many years, most people will continue using that name out of habit, and the real generation that it will affect are those learning the language or word for the first time or early in their life (i.e. children). I apologize for my lack of knowledge. You handled the question much better. And you are right, it was better for the Indo-Iranian or Indology list. Shilpi Misty Bhadra University of Texas at Austin Ancient History, Classics, and Humanities (focus: Indo-European Studies) senior undergraduate evenstar at mail.utexas.edu 512-320-0229 (ph) 512-476-3367 (fax) From maxdashu at LanMinds.Com Thu Jan 25 21:21:37 2001 From: maxdashu at LanMinds.Com (Max Dashu) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:21:37 -0800 Subject: la leche In-Reply-To: <3A6380CE.39C23231@memphis.edu> Message-ID: >>> Why shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? >> If anything, it's the masculine forms that need explaining. What, then, are we to make of a feminine form for "penis" in Greek (i psoli)? Max Dashu From r.piva at swissonline.ch Thu Jan 25 22:45:32 2001 From: r.piva at swissonline.ch (Renato Piva) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:45:32 +0100 Subject: la leche (was: Re: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro..).. Message-ID: >> Leo Connolly wrote: > But my Latin dictionary (an old Cassell's from the 1930s) lists only _lac_, > not _lacte_. Still, it is conceivable that _lacte_ arose in Vulgar Latin, > and it would be a perfectly good ancestor of _leche_ et al. In Petron's Satyricon (1st AD), Trimalchio, the rich libertus from Asia Minor who, being a foreigner, speaks a vulgar variety of Latin (with many 'errors' as compared to classical Latin), says 'bonum lactem' (I can't tell where exactly, as I have no text at hand, but I'm sure it's there). R. Piva From g_sandi at hotmail.com Fri Jan 26 14:24:54 2001 From: g_sandi at hotmail.com (Gabor Sandi) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:24:54 -0000 Subject: la leche (was: Re: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro..).. Message-ID: >From: "Leo A. Connolly" >Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:59:27 +0000 [ moderator snip ] >I'm no specialist either (Germanic philology is my thing, at least >officially). But my Latin dictionary (an old Cassell's from the 1930s) lists >only _lac_, not _lacte_. Still, it is conceivable that _lacte_ arose in >Vulgar Latin, and it would be a perfectly good ancestor of _leche_ et al. Although I am no specialist either, I do have a life-long interest in Romance linguistics, so let me share my thoughts on this topic: 1. I think that the main reason for Latin neuter nouns turning into masculines in the Romance languages is that in the singular, neuter adjectives of the -o declension (by far the most common) were identical to their masculine counterparts in all cases except the nominative even in Classical Latin: Nom. bonus bonum Acc. bonum Gen. boni Dat. bono Abl. bono Once phonetic attrition (loss of final d) achieved the same for the definite article-to-be ille (ille/*illu *illu illi illo illo), the general impression must have been that masculine and neuter nouns mostly take the same qualifiers and are replaced by the same pronouns, therefore they must belong to the same category. The loss of final -s in the precursors of Italian and Romanian must have reinforced this trend in eastern dialects, since then the nominative also became identical: *bonu. 2. The word "lac" must have been felt to be an isolate in the language. Correct me if I am wrong, but no other noun with final -c survived into Vulgar Latin. It would have been natural for the nominative/accusative singular to be re-formed based on the genitive lactis, especially because of analogy with the similar-sounding nox/noctis, replaced in Vulgar Latin by *noctis/noctis. 3. To continue this trend of thought, the fact that lac became feminine leche in Spanish is not so much a matter of a neuter noun becoming feminine. Instead, we should see it as one of several examples of masculine nouns of the Latin third declension becoming feminine (and vice versa?). Leche, sal, sangre, flor are feminine in Spanish; fleur, dent and mer are feminine in French; ponte is feminine in Portuguese. With dictionaries and some time on my hands I am sure I could provide more examples. What I cannot provide is a reason: analogy, semantic associations, sub- or superstratum influence? Any thoughts by real experts? 4. On corpus and tempus, we should remember that the final -s in these two words was very resilient in those dialects of Vulgar Latin that kept word-final -s. Old Spanish still had cuerpos and tiempos in the singular for these words (masculine of course), although the language eventually left off the final s through analogy with all other nouns. And Old French had an -s in these words in both the cas sujet and cas rigime in the singular, still kept today in the orthography (corps, temps), and even in speech if we consider the nouns in expressions like "de temps en temps" as in the singular. Best wishes to all, Gabor From mcv at wxs.nl Thu Jan 25 17:50:10 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:50:10 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:54:24 -0000, "Douglas G Kilday" wrote: >Some brief comments: First, *lactem is not required to explain the /t/ in >the Romance forms. But it is to explain the -e. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 25 18:29:23 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:29:23 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreso Megyeral" Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 10:25 PM >> I'm no specialist and I don't know what was the vulgar latin or the early >> romance word for milk on the Peninsula at that time, but my latin dictionary >> gives "lacte, is" for milk (and "lac" as an archaic form). I think that >> "lactem" then, would have been the accusative form (I have to rely on my >> memory, though, since I don't have any Latin grammar with me :) ). > It can't, since all the nouns ending on -e are still neuter in Latin. [Ed] I'd like to add that my (Dutch) Latin dictionary says 'lacte' is archaic, and 'lac' is the regular nominative in Classic Latin. Anyway, it is a neuter, so 'lactem' is impossible as you said, since all neuters have identical nominatives and accusatives. But, of course, an accusative 'lacte' is possible. It also says that it is derived from a root (g)lact-. Ed. Selleslagh From mcv at wxs.nl Thu Jan 25 17:45:35 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:45:35 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: <003901c07fb7$1bbeb680$4e05703e@edsel> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:23:06 +0100, "Eduard Selleslagh" wrote: > has all the characteristics of a somewhat complicated origin: it is >almost certainly a compound, with the suffix -(V)sco, which can be IE but just >as well Iberian or Basque, even though that wouldn't affect its meaning. I >would guess that the Latin form is derived from a substrate word with /a/. The >Spanish word cannot possibly be derived directly from the late-Latin form, >because the Latin c would have become /T/ (English th), not /k/ [In Sp. cerro >means 'small mountain, hill']. On the other hand, no such objection exists for >It. cerro. Could and Lat. cerrus /kerrus/ be related to a pre-IE >root and/or Celtic, for a certain type of mountain landscape? In such case, >the suffix -sko would make a lot of sense. Just a thought. Carrasca's grow on stony ground (the Dutch name is "steeneik"), so a connection with *KARR- "stone" is not unlikely. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From centrostudilaruna at libero.it Fri Jan 26 19:26:06 2001 From: centrostudilaruna at libero.it (Alberto Lombardo) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:26:06 +0100 Subject: R: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: ES wrote: " has all the characteristics of a somewhat complicated origin: it is almost certainly a compound, with the suffix -(V)sco, which can be IE but just as well Iberian or Basque, even though that wouldn't affect its meaning. I would guess that the Latin form is derived from a substrate word with /a/. The Spanish word cannot possibly be derived directly from the late-Latin form, because the Latin c would have become /T/ (English th), not /k/ [In Sp. cerro means 'small mountain, hill']. On the other hand, no such objection exists for It. cerro. Could and Lat. cerrus /kerrus/ be related to a pre-IE root and/or Celtic, for a certain type of mountain landscape? In such case, the suffix -sko would make a lot of sense. Just a thought." I'd like just add that the suffix -asko is the more tipycal locative ligurian suffix; it seems to have had IE links. The meaning must have been "high, elevated place". Alberto Lombardo Italy From mcv at wxs.nl Thu Jan 25 17:48:24 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:48:24 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:10:10 +0100, "Kreso Megyeral" wrote: >In one Spanish grammar written in Croatian I found that there are still some >words in Spanish considered neuter (of course, not "leche") that express >collectives or some young animals. The article quoted is LO. Is it indeed, >or is it some interpretation of the author? LO as an article (i.e. preceding a noun) is completely unknown to me. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 25 18:59:12 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:59:12 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreso Megyeral" Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 12:10 AM > In one Spanish grammar written in Croatian I found that there are still some > words in Spanish considered neuter (of course, not "leche") that express > collectives or some young animals. The article quoted is LO. Is it indeed, > or is it some interpretation of the author? [Ed] LO is a definite article for the neuter sg., derived from Lat. demonstrative (acc.) ILLUD (like LA < ILLAM, and EL < ILLUM). It is usually used in phrases like 'hacer lo necesario' ('faire le nécessaire', 'do what's needed/the necessary things') where it designates collectives, or in more abstract ones : a characteristic like 'lo bello, lo bonito es que...' ('the beautiful/nice thing [about it] is that...'). In some regions - the one I know for certain is Murcia - it appears in place names like 'Lo Pagán', apparently referring originally to a property of some family; in the same region you find also toponyms like Los Urrutias (Basque settlers in the Campo de Cartagena when it was still largely a 'secano') or Los Velones, where such reference cannot be doubted. I would guess that LO has then a collective meaning 'all that belongs to...' LO can also be used separately as a general indication of 'the things': 'lo que hay que hacer...' ('that what has to be done...'), similar to Fr. 'ce [que]'. I am not aware of any neuter nouns in Spanish. If my memory serves me right, there are some southern Italian family names like Lo Vecchio, that might be based upon similar toponyms, but I leave that to the specialists in S. Italian dialects. Of course, LO is an article in regular Italian, but only as a replacement before sp-, sc- etc,. for euphonic reasons ('lo sport'). Ed. Selleslagh From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Thu Jan 25 20:11:34 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:11:34 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ moderator edited ] >Rick Mc Callister wrote: >>How common is this phenomenon in other Romance >>languages and other other languages with grammatical gender? >Interesting thing with disappearing of Latin neuter nouns happens in >Romanian. Romanian actually has neuter gender, but in singular forms it's >equal to masculine, while in plural to feminine. Even the definite article, >which is postpositive in Romanian, doesn't have its own form, but follows >the same pattern. >In one Spanish grammar written in Croatian I found that there are still some >words in Spanish considered neuter (of course, not "leche") that express >collectives or some young animals. The article quoted is LO. Is it indeed, >or is it some interpretation of the author? Spanish neuter lo is used with adjectives to express abstract qualities; e.g. bueno "good (masc.)" el bueno "the good (person, thing, place) (masc.)" lo bueno "that which is good, the good (thing, part, aspect, etc.)" there are also the neuter demonstratives esto "this one", eso "that one", aquello "that one (far away in space or time; or last in a series)". These are used to refer to abstract thoughts or things without antecedents such as a "one-eyed, one-horned flying purple people-eater" regarding collectives or baby animals, you just use the normal masculine or feminine article; e.g. el ternero "the calf", el cachorro "the puppy, cub, whelp", el gatito "the kitten"; el pinal, el pinar "the pine grove", los pinos "the pines" Asturian, on the other hand, does have a neuter that's used for collectives and, I think, "topic" or "generic" use. Posner talks about it and I have an Asturian student who's heard it used. Regarding masculine singular, feminine plural. Off the top of the head, the example in Spanish is el arte, las artes. Some speakers (and most dictionaries), however, use el arte (masc.) to mean "art" in a generic sense and el arte (fem.) to mean "art" in a specific sense. I've only come across the plural as las artes (fem.). The form el, normally masculine, is, of course, also used with feminine nouns beginning with a stressed /a/ Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Thu Jan 25 17:58:28 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:58:28 -0500 Subject: cat < ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [snip] >The tail idea also occurs in squirrel, interpreted as >'shadow-tail.' But the shadow part sense. (Perhaps, , sometimes land overgrown with bushes, scrub.) If they look like American squirrels, their long thick tails shade them like umbrellas --but I admit that I'm getting into folk etymology. "Scrub tail, brush tail, bushy tail" describe squirrels even better --that is, if skiros + ouros actually means that in Greek Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From jharvey at ucla.edu Sat Jan 27 01:32:14 2001 From: jharvey at ucla.edu (Jasmin Harvey) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:32:14 -0800 Subject: cat < ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ Moderator's note: I am setting aside the general prohibition against CC'd messages in this one instance, since there may be some interest on the part of the non-members who have contributed. Please be circumspect in replies, since they will not be used to the volume this list can generate. --rma ] I forwarded parts of this discussion to a friend who forwarded it onward and this response came back which may be of interest. Jasmin Harvey Germanic Linguistics C.Phil. http://www.germanic.ucla.edu jharvey at ucla.edu ------------------------------------- The source for the Celtic Cat information ... was Alexei Kondratiev, via Brenda Daverin. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fwd: Re: Of human cattage Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:18:18 -0800 From: "B. Daverin" To: "Birrell Walsh" Here is my source's response to the origins of the word "cat" taken back to Indo-European through Old/Common Celtic. I know that it's possible that someone else on that list has already pointed this out, but in case not, here's more for the discussion. Sla/n, Brenda ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- The Celtic word for "cat" is perfectly reconstructible as _kattos_ (also feminine _katta_). This gives _cat_ in both Irish and Scots Gaelic, _kayt_ in Manx, _cath_ in Welsh, _kath_ in Cornish, and _kazh_ in Breton. Many etymological dictionaries say that it's a borrowing from Latin _cattus_, but it seems completely obvious to me that the reverse is true, that _cattus_ in Latin (which appears rather late) is in fact a borrowing from a Celtic or other northern European source, displacing the original _felis_. That the word is native there is confirmed by the Gaulish name _Cattos_ and the tribal name _Chatti_ or _Chattes_ ("the Cats" -- ie, "the Wildcats") from the Celtic-Germanic border country. The word is thought to come from an IE stem *_kat-_ or *_qat-_ meaning "to cast down", in a specialised meaning of "what is cast down = offspring of an animal". An independent derivation in Latin is _catulus_ "puppy". The Celtic word evidently began with the sense of "baby animal", then specialised as "kitten", and eventually came to mean the animal at any age. From miskec4096 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 28 15:45:05 2001 From: miskec4096 at hotmail.com (Kreso Megyeral) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:45:05 +0100 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: Kastytis Beitas wrote: >I can propose other possible origin for some 'non-cat' cat words. >I think it is a rather frequent case when predatory animal is named >according its prey. >For example, in Lithuanian: >peleda "owl" <-- pele "mous" + eda "to eat", >zhuvedra "tern on gull" <-- zhuvis 'fish' + eda "to eat" (or edrus >"voracious") >In English: >polecat or polcat at 1320 "ferret" <-- Old French poule, pol "fowl, hen" + >cat Typical example are taboo-words, for example Slavic medvld - "honey eater", meaning that direct mentioning of the animal would bring bad luck. >2. Hindi bhili 'cat' <-> Russian bilo 'thing for beating', Eng. beat etc. >(maybe this bhili is cognate to Lithuanian pele) Russian "bilo" is a noun derived from the verb "bit'" - to beat, meaning that it CAN be related to Hindi, but it could be clear only if someone knew the Sanskrit word. >This comparison of mouse anf fly supports my hypothesis, because other >possible meaning for 'fly-words' is a "bitter; one who bites". This fits to >"bee-words" too: in Lithuanian bite "bee" etc. Armenian muk 'mouse' is >similar to Russian muka "flour; what is grinded' and Russian muka >"suffering"... Similar, yes, but if you don't pay attention on vocal laws, showing that Russian "u" comes from older "9" (nasalysed o), thus "m9ka". From miskec4096 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 28 15:55:26 2001 From: miskec4096 at hotmail.com (Kreso Megyeral) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:55:26 +0100 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: David White wrote: >A truly minor point ... Mongooses (-geese?) are viverrids, not mustelids, and >only one type of viverrid, the genet (not mongoose) of Iberia (spreading >recently to France and even western Germany), occurs in Europe. > For the Romans to call a mongoose a cat would have been more or less as for >us to call skunks 'polecats' or a kind of racoon 'ringtail cats'. >Not that that stops us. Speaking of deplorable, or understandable, vagueness >in terms for animal, it is within the realm of possibility the word for 'fox' >and 'wolf' were not originally distinguished, which would explain a few >things. Another good example occurs in Hungarian, where the word for turtle actually means "frog in shield", showing that even two different classes of vertebrates can merge. But mongooses are more similar to martens then to cats, and the marten is also quite usual species in Europe. From vistasjy at md.prestige.net Tue Jan 30 03:55:49 2001 From: vistasjy at md.prestige.net (JohnYY) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:55:49 -0500 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: The classical solution to the "mongoose plural" problem is embodied in the old (and probably apocryphal) message sent to the e-tailer by the poor chap beset by a plethora of cobras: "Please send me a mongoose; by the way, send me another one.". Since it stems from Marathi 'mong{s', perhaps a more elegant solutiion would be to use the plural form from that language (Does anyone know it?) (cf. "cherubim") ---------- > From: David L. White > Date: Monday, January 15, 2001 10:28 PM > Mongooses (-geese?) [ moderator snip ] From hwhatting at hotmail.com Tue Jan 30 07:19:25 2001 From: hwhatting at hotmail.com (Hans-Werner Hatting) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:19:25 +0100 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: Dear List members, I think Kaystytis Beitas has made a valid point in suggesting a further source for the name of the cat. But there are problems with some of the links he proposes: 1. KB wrote: >For example: 1. Latin feles 'cat' reminds of Lithuanian pele 'mouse'. In >Watkins Dictionary of Indo-European Roots pel- means "to thrust, to >strike". >>I suppose Hindi bhili "cat" would be too fortuitous to suggest a >>connection based on *bhil-, *bhel-? >2. Hindi bhili 'cat' <-> Russian bilo 'thing for beating', Eng. beat > etc. >(maybe this bhili is cognate to Lithuanian pele) I don't know the origin of Hindi *bhili. Based on what KB suggests, a link to the root behind Engl. bite, Gm. beissen etc. might be possible. Certainly it is not linked to Lith. pele, as Indian /bh/ corresponds to Baltic /b/ (if we don't pull out the magic wand of taboo changes, of course). The vocalism (Hindi /i/ - Latin /e/ should not correspond)makes it also problematic to link bhili to feles. If we want to find a cognate for "pele", we would have to look for something like *pel/pol- in Latin and like *pal/par/p.r- in Indo-Aryan. 2. KB: >English mouse and German Maus are similar to Russian musor "debris; >litter". Chernykh states that musor is cognate with Russian musolit' >"slabber, slaver" and both them are originated from IE *meu-, *mou- >"damp, >moist" and "liquid dirt; mud". But this cognateness is between >musor and >mud, moist is more distant in my opinion: musor is >originated as "litter, >produced by chapping (or by mice?)"... As KB himself notes, the Gmc. mouse words are related to Slavic mysh', going back to PIE *muHs- or sim. As PIE /s/ became /sh/ in Slavic after /u/, /i/, /r/, /k/, "musor" cannot go back to PIE *muHs-; the /s/ goes either back to PIE /k'/, or the word is a compund of the root quoted by Chernykhov and the root contained in Russian _ssorit'sja_ "quarrel". I don't have an etymological dictionary here to check that question. 3. KB: >So there is some basis to state that this all-Indo-European word cat >in >all its variations may by descendant of some Indo-European root >with >meaning "to hit, to strike, to make hole etc". Distant cognate of >this >hypothetical (?) root may be Watkins's kat- "to fight" and kat- >"down". >Or cut in Chambers Dictionary of Etymology: ,,Probably before 1300 either >as: cutten <...>, kitten <...>; of >uncertain orrigin (possibly borrowed >from Scandinavian source; >compare Swedish dialect kuta, kata "to cut", >kuta "knife", and >Icelandic kuti "knife". '' Well, "cut" cannot be a Gmc. cognate of a PIE *kat-, as PIE */k/ gives /h/ in Gmc. in Anlaut position, and /t/ should give /T/ or /D/. The same reason speaks against deriving the Gmc. cat words from such a PIE root. One aside - are there any data available for the first recordings of the _katto- / gatto- _ - word? As already has been stated by Rick Mc Callister at the start of this thread, the words look too much alike to be of PIE origin, and I would add that the k/g variation in Greek, as well as between individual Romance languages (e.g., It. gatto vs. French chat) also are arguments against an inheritance from PIE. My preference is to see the word as a loan from a non-IE source, maybe on such a route: (Source language) > Greek > Romance, Celtic, Gmc, Slavic etc. 4. KB: >So distant relativeof English cat or Lithuanian kate "male cat" or >Russian >kot "male cat" may be English kettle, Lithuanian katilas >"kettle": In >Chambers Dict.of Etym.: ,,kettle -- <...> borrowed directly from Latin >catillus "small bowl, >dish or plate", diminutive of catinus "bowl, dish, >pot"; perhaps >cognate with Greek kotyle "small vessel, cup" <...>. '' Concerning the impossibility of Gmc. /k/ being from PIE /k/ (except if one uses that other magic wand, a IE substrate language influence), see above. Lith. "katilas" is most probably a loan from Latin, via Slavic (v. Russian "kotel", Common Slavic *koti0lu0-) (i0, u0 denoting the front and back yers, respectively). 5. KB: >This excerpt from Chambers Dict.of Etym. reminds on my old posting (Lith. >peilis "knife" <-> Lith. pele "mous"): >>The similar case is with Lithuanian "peilis" 'knife'. It is similar >>to >>Russian "pila" 'saw', Lat. "pilum" 'heavy javelin, pestle', OHG "pfil" >>'arrow, stake'. In this context OE "pil" 'stake, shaft, spike' and Eng >>"pile" 'arrow, >>dart' >may be not borrowings as it is stated in Chambers >>Dict. of >>Etym. ( p.794)] but words of common Indo-European origin. The vocalism speaks against pele and peilis being cognates - there is no PIE ablaut pattern e-ei. The link peilis - pilum - pila looks possible. Because of the initial p/pf the English and OHG words have to be loans from Latin. I hope I did not spoil too much fun by insisting on the observance of sound laws. But I think if one disregards them, one should give good reasons for doing so, otherwise we'll very soon arrive again in a state where "in etymology, vowels mean nothing, and consonants very little". Best regards, Hans-Werner Hatting From acnasvers at hotmail.com Tue Jan 2 04:16:27 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 04:16:27 -0000 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: On 28 Dec 2000, Rick Mc Callister wrote: >I looked in Buck and found > Latin catulus, catellus "puppy, cub" [Buck 1949: 180] Various Latin poets use to denote the young of pigs, lions, wolves, and bears. "Puppy, young dog" is evidently a specialization. > Rumanian catel, Old Italian catello, Old French cael, obsolete >French cheau [Buck 1949: 180] > Old Norse hadhna "kid", Russian kotot'sja, Polish kocic'sie "bear >cub" [Buck 1949: 180] > Posner also cites Sardinian kateddu "little dog, puppy" < *ket- + >-ellu [Posner 1996: 86] This looks like a direct reflex of Lat. , given that Sard. -dd- from Lat. -ll- is regular. > which suggests the possibility of >catulus/catellus > *katlu > *katju/kakju/kacju > *kac^o > cach-orro > although I imagine an /e/ would be expected, as in lacte- > leche Span. -ech- regularly results from Lat. -act-, but other situations producing Span. -ch- may leave a preceding /a/ unchanged, as from , so *cach- <- *catlus <- is reasonable. Does anyone know why is feminine? Velazquez (1959) gives 'cub, the young of a beast' as one sense of , and 'litter, young brought forth by an animal at once' appears to be based on the same root. As with , both generic and specific meanings are in use. > so maybe there was influence from Spanish cazar, Italian cacciare >"to hunt" < Vulgar Latin *captiare "to hunt" < Latin capio "I take" >and BIG MAYBE a methathesis (or some type of sequence in which the >palatalization was scrambled) in Basque > txakur and BIGGER MAYBE a >backformation to zakur--but I don't expect anyone to take my word without >proof :> > I'd appreciate suggestions Giovanni Alessio briefly discusses some of these words in his review of Hubschmid's "Mediterrane Substrate" (St. Etr. XXIX, 1961, pp. 362-79). Alessio rejects the connection between the Sardo-Corsican dog-terms and Basque , on phonetic grounds. He suggests might be derived from a Ligurian form represented by Late Lat. , Ital. 'bloodhound'. The vowel-alternation is parallel to Lat. : Span. 'holm-oak'. Ligurians living near Tartessos are reported by Steph. Byz. (s.v. Ligustine), and Thuc. (VI.2.2) says the Sicanians claimed to be Iberians driven from the basin of the Sikanos (mod. Jucar?) by Ligurians. Alessio thus hypothesizes that the Ligurians brought substratal forms from the Balkans to southern Spain, whence the Iberians passed some of them (perhaps including ) on to the Basques, giving Hubschmid and others the false impression that Basque itself originated in the East. > Does anyone know how recent the terms are in the Balkan and >Caucasus languages cited? > Is it possible that they all spring from a Slavic, Greek or Turkish >term for a specific type of dog? The modern Greek, Balkan, and Turkish terms probably come from Common Greek (kuo:n) '(dog) useful for hunting'. The use of the Aeolic form, rather than Attic *diagraios, probably reflects an Aeolic predilection for hunting expressed by 'mad about hunting' which is based on Aeolic 'wild animal', not on the Attic form . My guess is the Sardo-Corsican terms are also from this Greek source. What little I have found about Georg. indicates that it simply means 'dog, Hund' without reference to hunting utility. Georgian dissimilates /r/ to /l/ when another /r/ precedes, but a single /r/ in a word appears to be stable, so there is no evident basis for connecting with the other dog-terms. DGK From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 4 00:02:05 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:02:05 -0600 Subject: Greek Genitive Plural Message-ID: The only reason I know of to think that /s/ once existed in the gen plural of /a/-stems in Greek is that late PIE apparently did not tolerate hiatus to the extent that /a-oon/ would mandate, at least not in V-stem nouns. Note that even in Sanskrit V-stems, where intrusive /s/ was not used (not counting some pronouns), it was still evidently felt necessary to begin the final syl with some consonant, in this case /n/. It seems that different branches adopted different solutions to the same perceived problem. So we have some indirect evidence of a phonotactic constraint. I have not bothered to check the rest of posited PIE morphology to see if this constraint holds up across the board, though right off the top of my head I cannot think of any evidence that it does not. Dr. David L. White From petegray at btinternet.com Thu Jan 4 09:42:56 2001 From: petegray at btinternet.com (petegray) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 09:42:56 -0000 Subject: Gk gen plural Message-ID: > Wouldn't they both end up the same? ... I'm not sure in what > circumstances in Greek you could expect to see a difference between the > result of -aso:m and -aH2o:m. This was my point. Several authors confidently assert that the pronominal ending -asom was adopted into Greek as well as into Latin, but I can see no evidence for this assertion at all. The only argument I can see is from probability: Latin and Greek both borrow the pronominal nominative plural, Latin/Italic borrows the pronominal genitive plural, so perhaps Greek also did - but the books seem to make statements more strongly than that. (e.g. Szemerenyi p190 "Latin and Greek ... both from -a:som .. the pronominal ending." Beekes, on the other hand, avoids this error.) I'm glad I haven't overlooked some obvious bit of evidence! Peter From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 4 00:34:38 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:34:38 -0600 Subject: Anthony as Greek? Message-ID: > Let me apologize, but it is escaping me why "Anthony" cannot come from Gk > or . Aeschylus before 400BC already uses the term to > also denote "pride", "honor" and "height of achievement". It was also used > to connote "brightness" or "brilliance." Parallel the name with Gk > , garland, and the fact that appears as a Roman name > at least by the first century BC. > Is there a clear reason why Ant[h]onius cannot be Greek? Not an overwhelmingly clear reason, perhaps, but "Antonius", sans "h", is a Roman family name presumably of some ancientry (since Roman families were not made up anew, not that I ever heard of anyway). "Stephanus", by contrast, is a given or personal name, so the analogy is not quite exact. But since Roman family names were (I vaguely recall) fairly often of Etruscan origin, and the Etruscans probably came from the Eastern Mediterranean, is seems within the range of possibility the Roman name could ultimately go back to the same source, perhaps one of those Mediterranean words like "olive". I am not aware of any evidence that the word is legitimately IE, though it may be. Dr. David L. White From BMScott at stratos.net Thu Jan 4 20:18:47 2001 From: BMScott at stratos.net (Brian M. Scott) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 15:18:47 -0500 Subject: Anthony as Greek? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Friday, 29 December, 2000, at 11:58:02, Steve Long wrote: SL> Let me apologize, but it is escaping me why "Anthony" cannot come SL> from Gk or . [...] Is there a clear reason why SL> Ant[h]onius cannot be Greek? Roman (as distinct from medieval) and its derivatives rather consistently appear with , not the that one would expect in a borrowing of Gk . And it seems to be borrowed into Greek with tau, not theta: according to Morlet (Les noms de personne sur le territoire de l'ancienne Gaule du VIe au XIIe si?cle, I:20a), H. Dessau (Inscriptiones latinae selectae) cites two Greek transcriptions of , both with <'Anto:->, and Russian is apparently from Greek . Brian M. Scott From Georg at home.ivm.de Thu Jan 4 00:56:57 2001 From: Georg at home.ivm.de (Stefan Georg) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 01:56:57 +0100 Subject: Meaning of "Goth" In-Reply-To: <001701c0729f$e79a75c0$f16163d1@texas.net> Message-ID: > By the way (displaying my ignorance here), how does OHG "kans" >appear as modern German "gans"? Did only the /d/ -> /t/ part of this shift >get fully established in standard German? It's OHG, MHG, and NHG /gans/. -- Dr. Stefan Georg Heerstra?e 7 D-53111 Bonn FRG Tel./Fax +49-228-691332 From vistasjy at md.prestige.net Thu Jan 4 04:07:54 2001 From: vistasjy at md.prestige.net (JohnYY) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 23:07:54 -0500 Subject: The sun never sets ... Message-ID: We are discussing the linguistics of a mythic locale - I believe that Bombay is no more, having been replaced officially by something like "Mumbai". From bronto at pobox.com Thu Jan 4 04:41:57 2001 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 20:41:57 -0800 Subject: II subgroups Message-ID: rohan.oberoi at cornell.edu wrote: > Try: > http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/karten/indi/indicm.htm > for a map and accompanying classifications, albeit in German. Thanks! Some of it is hard to read, but it'll do for most purposes. -- Anton Sherwood -- br0nt0 at p0b0x.com -- http://ogre.nu/ From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 4 19:18:46 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:18:46 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G Kilday" Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 9:32 PM > On 22 Dec 2000, Eduard Selleslagh wrote: >> And the (in origin Anatolian) Etruscans are linguistically second cousins of >> the Italic speaking peoples, so the search for the roots of the latter day >> Antonii (etc...) risks becoming cyclical ('cercle vicieux'). > This is the second time in a month you have represented this flimsy > hypothesis of Etruscans coming from Anatolia as though it were an > established fact. If you actually have any non-cyclical arguments > (preferably linguistic) in favor of an eastern homeland for the Etruscans, > perhaps you could post them here or on the other list. > Doug Kilday > [ Moderator's note: > The hypothesis that the Etruscans may have originated in Anatolia appears > to be supported by the presence on the island of Lemnos of a stele > inscribed in a language clearly related to but differing from the Etruscan > of Italy. > --rma ] [Ed Selleslagh] I thought this was something of majority view. Of course, final proof is hard to get by, and one should keep an open mind. I'll give you some arguments, but I don't intend to start a new thread on this. The moderator's note is indeed the main argument. The stele found near Kaminia on Lemnos (by G. Cousin and F. D?rrbach in 1885) dates from the 6th or 7th c. B.C. The spelling differences (with Etruscan) can probably be explained by the different alphabet and the phonetic evolution during several centuries of separation (the date of arrival of the Etruscan's forefathers is rather unclear: the estimates vary from the 13th to the 6th c. B.C. But they seem to have arrived after the Umbrians had already established themselves in the later Etruria: the river now called Ombrone seems to bear their name). Example: Etr. - Lemn. (probably meaning 'year(s)'). The general aspect of the language is flecting, with elements that recall (P)IE (e.g. -c, Lat. -que, Greek -te, but that could be contamination), but more similar to e.g. Lydian (-l, -s genitives), apparently with a strong initial accent and pileups of consonants. In short: like a cousin rather than a descendant of ('narrow') PIE. A few years ago, M. Carrasquer made a tentative family tree I will send you privately since this list doesn't allow it. There are also non-linguistic arguments, like the bronze liver of Piacenza, used as a model by Etruscan fortune tellers, which has N. Mesopotamian characteristics. Or the considerable Greek content of Etruscan culture. Although this isn't really an argument, I would like to add this: It is possible that the Eneid (Aeneis) is at least in part based upon the actual voyage of the Etruscans' forefathers to Italy, but that is only an educated guess. Anyway, the route is about right, and the fantasy world it depicts in places sounds like that of Jason's voyage to the Black Sea, or the Odyssee. And its source is popular Roman tradition, that speaks of a landing of a people on or near the Latium coast; Etruscan Caere (now Cerveteri) is not far from Rome, and the earliest known rulers of Rome (itself an Etruscan name: Ruma) were the Etruscan kings. So, it is entirely possible, even likely, that the Romans confounded Etruscans and Italic peoples of the earliest period covered by tradition. All this means is that probably some people from the north-eastern Mediterranean arrived in Latium or thereabout in or before the earliest days of the Roman tradition. Ed. From petegray at btinternet.com Thu Jan 4 16:23:26 2001 From: petegray at btinternet.com (petegray) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 16:23:26 -0000 Subject: minimal pairs Message-ID: >...Etruscans coming from Anatolia In addition to the traditions that Etruscans came from Anatolia, and Romans came from Troy, there is a tradition that the Trojans themselves originated in Italy! Iasius was the brother of Dardanus, and both were believed to have travelled from Italy to Samothrace, then to Troy, where they founded the Trojan race. You'll see a reference to it in Vergil, Aeneid 3:168. Peter From jozo.kapovic at zg.tel.hr Thu Jan 4 13:33:49 2001 From: jozo.kapovic at zg.tel.hr (=?windows-1250?Q?Mate_Kapovi=E6?=) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:33:49 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: X99Lynx at aol.com Date: 2001. sije?anj 04 04:11 [Steve Long] , a call used by swineherds; , swine-collar; , a bird." Cf., Pol , hen.< Polish kura is from all-Slavic *kur7 probably meaning "rooster, cock > penis". It's probably of onomatopoeic origin, although there have been some comparisons of Slavic *kur7va (< *kur7) "whore" with that eng. word - whore, (Germ. H?re) which is very doubtful. From X99Lynx at aol.com Thu Jan 4 15:56:29 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:56:29 EST Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro... Message-ID: In a message dated 1/3/2001 9:37:58 PM, jozo.kapovic at zg.tel.hr writes: << it's hard to believe that *kotiti seN ("to bear cub (for some animals)") a would have come from *kot7, because cats were not so (economically) important. Some contamination of the roots has almost certainly been present. >> Just a note to point out again that the "semantic" end is not one that can be handled so easily. The "importance" of the cat, as well as how that word was used to describe animals, is pretty much opaque to us. There are dozens of ways the term could have been transferred that are not within our modern understanding. It's pertinent to remember that for example the historic word "cattle" in English can be traced with some precision not to livestock, but to a legal term for personal property. Its use to describe bovines is fairly recent. If the preliterate word "cat" referred to a function of an animal or a matter of property or status or a place of origin, then we may be at a loss to know how the transfer of meaning occurred. Such uncertainty should caution our willingness to eliminate paths of development on simple semantic impressions. Regards, Steve Long From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 4 19:28:26 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:28:26 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G Kilday" Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2001 5:16 AM > On 28 Dec 2000, Rick Mc Callister wrote: [snip] >> Posner also cites Sardinian kateddu "little dog, puppy" < *ket- + >> -ellu [Posner 1996: 86] > This looks like a direct reflex of Lat. , given that Sard. > -dd- from Lat. -ll- is regular. >> which suggests the possibility of >> catulus/catellus > *katlu > *katju/kakju/kacju > *kac^o > cach-orro >> although I imagine an /e/ would be expected, as in lacte- > leche > Span. -ech- regularly results from Lat. -act-, but other situations > producing Span. -ch- may leave a preceding /a/ unchanged, as from > , so *cach- <- *catlus <- is reasonable. Does anyone know > why is feminine? [Snip] > DGK [Ed Selleslagh] Just a few thoughts. Don't crucify me for it. Maybe we should write: *cacho < *catlo < catulum (acc.). The -orro goes back to the Mediterranean infix -rr-, which expresses an exaggerated quality, and is hence often augmentative/pejorative, cf. Cast. 'ventorro'. See the article "Los vocablos en -rr- de la lengua sarda. Conexiones con la pen?nsula ib?rica", by Mary Carmen Iribarren Argaiz, in Fontes Linguae Vasconum 76 (sept-dec 1997), pp. 335-354. Why is 'leche' feminine? In general, grammatical gender of certain classes of Spanish words (e.g.-or) is rather unstable or variable, although in the latter case different genders for the same word express different shades. Examples: -To sailors 'la mar' is feminine, to the rest of us it is masculine 'el mar'. In French 'la mer' is always feminine, and in Latin 'mare' is neuter.(Cf. 'ship' in English) -'la calor' is unbearable, but 'el calor', the normal kind, may be pleasant (in increasing order of unpleasantness: el calor, la calor, los calores, las calores, according to Spanish friends of mine, and slightly tongue-in-cheek). In French, 'la chaleur' is always feminine. Maybe 'la leche' is just the natural thing to say, isn't it ? I mean to people who speak a language that seems to treat grammatical gender rather loosely, at least historically (Maybe a Basque influence on early Castilian? Basque only distinguishes animate/inanimate). Milk is strongly linked to female mammals. In (modern) Greek they say 'thilik?' ( Message-ID: [snip] [DGK] > Does anyone know why is feminine? There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. I seem to remember Posner saying something to the extent that [in some cases] Spanish evidently derived feminine forms from the plurals while French and Italian derived masculine forms from the singulars [snip] >Giovanni Alessio briefly discusses some of these words in his review of >Hubschmid's "Mediterrane Substrate" (St. Etr. XXIX, 1961, pp. 362-79). >Alessio rejects the connection between the Sardo-Corsican dog-terms and >Basque , on phonetic grounds. He suggests might be >derived from a Ligurian form represented by Late Lat. , Ital. > 'bloodhound'. Corominas is locked up in the library for the next week or so, so I hope you don't mind me asking how and if Spanish sabueso "bloodhound" is derived from segusius. It looks possible but messy: I can see sabueso from something like *sagu"eso < *sagOso- but it gives an open /O/, rather than closed /o/ that would be expected from /u/ Or is it directly from substrate? >The vowel-alternation is parallel to Lat. : >Span. 'holm-oak'. Ligurians living near Tartessos are reported by >Steph. Byz. (s.v. Ligustine), and Thuc. (VI.2.2) says the Sicanians claimed >to be Iberians driven from the basin of the Sikanos (mod. Jucar?) by >Ligurians. Alessio thus hypothesizes that the Ligurians brought substratal >forms from the Balkans to southern Spain, whence the Iberians passed some of >them (perhaps including ) on to the Basques, giving Hubschmid and >others the false impression that Basque itself originated in the East. So Alessio proposed the Lusitanians = "IE Ligurians" = Illyrians hypothesis? By "IE Ligurians", I mean the non-Celtic, non-Italic IE speakers of N Italy & S France I've also seen claims that the Sikani themselves were Ligurians based on toponymic similarities between names in Sicily and Liguria [snip] Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From mcv at wxs.nl Wed Jan 10 02:28:34 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 03:28:34 +0100 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Dec 2000 03:30:12 -0000, "Douglas G Kilday" wrote: Sorry for the late reply, I was away for three weeks. >Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (5 Dec 2000) wrote: >>As I may have mentioned here earlier, I have been investigating the >>possible ramifications of hypothesizing that not only *k/*g/*gh had >>labialized (*kw/*gw/*ghw) and palatalized (*k^/*g^/*gh^) variants, but >>that this was originally the case for *all* (pre-)PIE consonants. >>One interesting possibility is **pw, which would have mostly merged >>with *kw (for obvious reasons, a labialized labial would have been a >>highly marked phoneme), but with *p in (pre-)Germanic. >I'm not comfortable with double stars, but *pw in Early PIE which merged >with *p in Pre-Germanic and with *kw in most other dialects makes sense. Thanks for the support :-). >>This could be the case in the words "liver", "four", "-leven, -lve", >> >"oven", "wolf" and some others ("leave", "sieve", etc.). >I would add the tail-end of "five"; Goth. suggests Early PIE *pempwe. It would be a candidate, were it not that I rather like the idea of *pen-kwe "...and five" (an etymology similar to that of "ampersand"). >>I'm not too pleased with "bane", however, being from the same root as >> >*gunT- "Kampf, Schlacht", which means a putative **bhwen- (for PIE >> >*ghwen) "to kill" is out of the question. Not that it matters for >> >judging the etymology by its own merits... >I don't follow this. I meant that *if* "bane" and are from the same root, it would ruin my theory, which requires *bhw-words to be etymologically distinct from *ghw-words (and similarly *pw- and *kw-words). >In my opinion, PIE roots containing a labialized aspirate (traditional *gwh) >which becomes Gmc. *w are most easily explained by assuming that the Early >PIE root had *bhw. The phonetic realization in Early Gmc. was probably close >to [vw], and this could plausibly have been reduced to [w]. In "mainstream" >PIE, *bhw merged with *ghw. I hypothesize: > Lat. , Gk. , Skt. , OE <- *bhwermos > Lat. , , Gk. , OE <- *sneibhw- > Lat. , Gk. , ME , Ger. <- *nebhwr- >Early PIE *dhw may be represented in "deer", OE , assuming this is >connected with Lat. , Gk. . The latter has the Aeolic form > which suggests a PIE labialized aspirate, just as Aeol. >'four', 'five' have

for Attic where PIE had a labialized >stop. I would refer "deer" to *dhwer- which became *ghwer- in "mainstream" >PIE. Interesting. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From hstahlke at gw.bsu.edu Sun Jan 7 01:46:37 2001 From: hstahlke at gw.bsu.edu (Herb Stahlke) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:46:37 -0500 Subject: Meaning of ``Goth`` Message-ID: I don't know Germanic linguistics well, but could /kans/ be something Notker would have written? Herb Stahlke <<< Georg at home.ivm.de 1/ 6 8:37p >>> > By the way (displaying my ignorance here), how does OHG "kans" >appear as modern German "gans"? Did only the /d/ -> /t/ part of this shift >get fully established in standard German? It's OHG, MHG, and NHG /gans/. -- Dr. Stefan Georg Heerstra_e 7 D-53111 Bonn FRG Tel./Fax +49-228-691332 From X99Lynx at aol.com Tue Jan 9 05:27:55 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 00:27:55 EST Subject: Early Goths as Drinkers Message-ID: In a message dated 1/3/2001 7:43:25 PM, dlwhite at texas.net writes: << But since the "pour" word and the "god" word seem to be different extensions of the same root, it is difficult to tell. >> As I mentioned earlier, there is the Gothic verb 'pour out' that is at the prime basis of seeing "Goth" as stemming from a flooded area or a different kind of pouring (in the works of such as the Swedish scholar Thorsten Andersson > "both Goetar, Proto-Germanic *gautoz, and Goths, Gutar, Proto-Germanic *gutaniz, are nomina agentis based on different ablaut grades of the verb Sw. gjuta, Germ. gie?en 'to pour', in the sense of 'to pour out semen'....") Because I have, perhaps for only personal reasons, problems with the Goths naming themselves either the "flood people" or the "semen people," I've tried to look again at the notion that the Gothic name is not a self-name and therefore perhaps not Germanic in origin. I have no idea how to judge how much the name itself is younger than PIE or some intermediate European proto-language. But there are some paths that might make some sense in terms of the historical and archaeological evidence. As early as there is anything involving the name or anything like it (Gotones, Gythones or even Getae), the Greeks are the primary source, of course. Looking at this "pour" idea as an origin brings up a number of different possibilities. The early Goths -- as they are understood now in the Cernjachov culture-- are associated with a good deal of metalcraft and religious practices. So perhaps there's something to "pouring" metal or burial mounds that works a little better than the ideas mentioned above. But one of the paths that's interesting are Greek words that circle around one or the other forms of the Goth name and that refer to making and drinking alcohol. was a main Greek verb for pour, taking many forms and meanings. In the passive and aorist, it actually took the form , and we also have the rather common participle, , poured. meant 'poured forth, unconfined', but was also used as 'immoderate' and as the title of a classical treatise on wine making. was poured wine. , a cupbearer. specifically meant a pouring out of liquid, drink-offering, "especially made to the dead or over their graves." Much more specific about drinking is a string of fairly early words more related to the shape and contents of the vessel than to its pour: was a Spartan drinking cup used by soldiers and made of earthenware or metal. is defined in L&S as "a deep potation", but not of wine. is defined as "make drunken" and, in the passive, as "drink hard". , inebriated. as a , a drinking-cup. as "receptacles." There is also the difficult-to-explain drinking and betting game of . Another group of words (most from at least the 3d century BC) that were apparently unrelated are also interesting: defined as "an Egyptian kind of beer, brewed with barley," but also as "the beer of northern nations." was a brewer (cf., leaven, ferment) a woman who sells beer a beer-shop a tax on beer Is there any possibility that some of these Greek words made their way northward or northeastward or vice versa or back and forth in the centuries before the "Goths" appear on the scene? Could any of this go back to an ancestor language? Were these people, later called the Goths, remembered most in the Greek consciousness or their own as notable brewers or consumers of such beverages? On the theory that the exceptional product of a land precedes knowledge of the people themselves? Who showed up to brew this "beer of the northern nations" in Greece at least by the 3d century BC? And, of course, could any of this make linguistic sense? Regards, Steve Long From sarima at friesen.net Sun Jan 7 02:37:17 2001 From: sarima at friesen.net (Stanley Friesen) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 18:37:17 -0800 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: <00ae01c07684$91938a20$a006703e@edsel> Message-ID: At 08:18 PM 1/4/01 +0100, Eduard Selleslagh wrote: >... different alphabet and the phonetic evolution during several centuries of >separation (the date of arrival of the Etruscan's forefathers is rather >unclear: the estimates vary from the 13th to the 6th c. B.C. But they seem to >have arrived after the Umbrians had already established themselves in the >later >Etruria: the river now called Ombrone seems to bear their name). Example: Etr. > - Lemn. (probably meaning 'year(s)'). Hmm, is there any other evidence for the Umbrians preceding the Etruscans in Etruria? If this is really what happened it tends to remove the main objections to the Villanova Culture being associated with Italic speakers. [It also fits with my ideas about the origin of the italic peoples: if I am right than the earlier dates for the arrival of the Etruscans would also be ruled out, leaving circa 8th to 6th c. B.C.]. -------------- May the peace of God be with you. sarima at ix.netcom.com From dlwhite at texas.net Sun Jan 7 02:54:44 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:54:44 -0600 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: It should also be noted that the words "Trojan" and "Etruscan", not to mention "Tuscan", "Tyrrhenian", and "Tursha" (an Egyptian term for "Sea Peoples", who were clearly from the Eastern Med), are quite possibly variant forms of a single word. "Tarquin" and "Tarsus" might possibly be added to the list. But we've been through this before. Does anyone out there know where in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? I have not been able to find it. Dr. David L. White From proto-language at email.msn.com Sun Jan 7 03:38:13 2001 From: proto-language at email.msn.com (proto-language) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 21:38:13 -0600 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Dear Eduard and IEists: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eduard Selleslagh" Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 1:18 PM And its source is popular Roman tradition, that speaks of a landing of a people on or near the Latium coast; Etruscan Caere (now Cerveteri) is not far from Rome, and the earliest known rulers of Rome (itself an Etruscan name: Ruma) were the Etruscan kings. So, it is entirely possible, even likely, that the Romans confounded Etruscans and Italic peoples of the earliest period covered by tradition. [PR] Could you tell me the source for the opinion that Roma is derived from Etruscan Ruma? And what is it supposed to mean? Pat PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE at email.msn.com (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindga meipi a netr allar nmo, geiri vnda~r . . . a ~eim mei~i, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rstom renn." (Havamal 138) From colkitto at sprint.ca Sun Jan 7 15:59:44 2001 From: colkitto at sprint.ca (Robert Orr) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 10:59:44 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Georgiev has a chapter on this topic in his An Introduction to the History of the Indo-European Languages. Sofia: Bulgarian Academy of Sciences. (1981). My own knowledge of ths topic is rather weak. Any comments on Georgiev's proposals (which do look quite solid)? ----Original Message----- From: Eduard Selleslagh To: Indo-European Mailing List Date: Saturday, January 06, 2001 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) [ moderator snip ] [Ed Selleslagh] I thought this was something of majority view. Of course, final proof is hard to get by, and one should keep an open mind. I'll give you some arguments, but I don't intend to start a new thread on this. [ moderator snip ] From stevegus at aye.net Sun Jan 7 21:40:53 2001 From: stevegus at aye.net (Steve Gustafson) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:40:53 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Ed Selleslagh wrote: <> There are a number of things about Etruscan that suggest some kind of relationship to PIE. There seems to be some kind of inherited pattern of ablaut in several lexical items in Etruscan: e.g. nom. clan, gen. clens, dat. clensi, nom. pl. clenar, "son." The noun endings themselves (-s genitive, -si dative, -ar [from *-az or *-ans?] plural) seem to strongly resemble what has happened in other IE languages. A locative case or derived adjective predictably ends in -ti or -thi. Etruscan feminines typically end in -i or -a, resembling the two thematic feminine types in Sanskrit. (Uni, Ati, Menrva, Klutmsta) Some pronouns: 1st sing. nom. mi, acc. mini. 3d sing an (he, she), in (it). "This" is ita or eta; also ica or eca. Accusatives of these add -n. Adjectives derived from nouns usually add -iu or -(e)na; e.g. the family name of Lars Porsena, and such Etruscan-Latin names as Furius. Verbs show an apparently consistent past in -ce: turce (he, she, it gave); svalce (he, she, it lived). A possible sigmatic aorist? especially since some historians of Romance have blamed the palatalisation of Latin 'c' on the Etruscans. Imperatives show either a naked stem (tur!) or the ending -thi. The numerals, as is well known, hardly look IE, but you do have: 7 semph, and 9 nurph. 7 *sep-, *seb- seems to be common Mediterranean as well as IE. I have wondered about whether the Etruscans are somehow related to the proto-Germans. Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. These names also make you wonder whether their script was somehow inadequately supplied with vowels, or made heavy use of abbreviated forms. Much of Etruscan inflection and derivation, in so far as we can figure it out at this remove, looks like a well-worn IE language of relatively recent date. So do most of their pronouns and particles. It's the Etruscan vocabulary that no one has yet been able to figure. -- We will walk into the snow, and we will keep walking, until we reach the grey horizon. Ceterum censeo sedem Romanam esse delendam. From X99Lynx at aol.com Tue Jan 9 15:35:58 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:35:58 EST Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: In a message dated 1/6/2001 9:22:03 PM, edsel at glo.be writes: << the date of arrival of the Etruscan's forefathers is rather unclear: the estimates vary from the 13th to the 6th c. B.C.>> Archaeologically, it seems that it is difficult to distinguish Etruscans in terms of the surrounding Villanovan culture before the early 8th century. Beginning at that time certain distinctive features -- many of them Asian -- begin to emerge that will mark Etruscan culture in later centuries, including their unique grid-like urban system. As far as consensus goes, most historians would probably agree that "the Etruscans as we know them represent a combination of elements from Asia Minor and local Villanovan, with a strong infusion of Greek culture for good measure." Long before the Lemnos inscription, of course, Herodotus had told us that the Etruscans came from Lydia. Regards, Steve Long From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sun Jan 7 01:57:08 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:57:08 -0500 Subject: dulcis/lac? In-Reply-To: <3A53FF15.678B05B9@pobox.com> Message-ID: I noticed that Buck [among others] suggests Latin dulcis & Greek gluku/s < *dluk- I'm wondering if there's any possibility of Latin lac, lact- & Greek gala, galakt- < *dlak- I've also seen Latin loquor linked to [something like] Gaelic tlu-, and English talk thanx Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From dlwhite at texas.net Sun Jan 7 06:55:32 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 00:55:32 -0600 Subject: IE 'wolf' Message-ID: With regard to the 'wolf' thing a while back, where it was stated that Latin "lupus" is borrowed from a /p/-dialect of Italic, Germanic "wolf" and so on appear to be the expected Germanic cognates of Latin, "vulpes". If this is so, then unless I am missing something (a very real possibility), the /-p/ here is original, as Germanic /kw/ does not (to my knowledge) change into either /p/ before the shift or /f/ after it. It is generally recognized (I think) that Latin "lupus" and "vulpes" are tabu variants of the same word. That the original ordering was /wl/ rather than /lu/ is suggested by Sanskrit "vrka-" and Lithuanian (if memory serves) "vlka-", which almost have to be the same word as Greek "luko-". So it would seem then that both 1) the ordering of /l/ and /w-u/ and 2) the choice of /p/ or /kw/ as the final C were subject to variation that is the result of tabu deformation, not sound change. Unless it can be shown that forms with /kw/ clearly did come down into Latin, or that /p/ in such positions was, like /f/ in "bufo", not the regular development, there is, as far as I can see, little reason to insist that the Latin forms were borrowed from /p/-Italic. I say all this with very little confidence: correct me if I am wrong. Dr. David L. White From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sun Jan 7 20:11:16 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 15:11:16 -0500 Subject: cat < ? In-Reply-To: <3A53FF15.678B05B9@pobox.com> Message-ID: cat seems to be one of the most problematic of all animal names Corominas says cattus "wildcat" was first documented in late Latin 4th c. and springs from an unknown source [Corominas 1980] Buck (1949: 182) goes back to Greek k?ttos, k?tta, g?ttos from an unknown source He also gives Latvian kak'is, kak'e "cat" [Buck 1949: 182] Entwistle (1936: 40-41) derives it from Gaulish cattu Gamkrelidze & Ivanov (1995: 515) (English trans.) offer Indo-European *khath "cat", possibly from Nubian kadi:s G & I also list Arabic kitt, Aramaic katta, Georgian katla, Laz k'at'u, Kabardian gedu, Dido gedu, Avar keto, Turkish kedi [Gamkrelidze & Ivanov 1995: 515] General lore has domestic cats originating in North Africa; but wildcats are almost universal. So is IE *khath "cat" plausible? My problem is that the cat words all look too much alike. I'm trying to imagine how a Nubian word would have made it into early IE. Is the ancient Berber/Libyan word known? Egyptian was something like miu, wasn't it? If it's from Gaulish; could it be derived from catu- "fighter"? -I remenber seeing a similar sounding word meaning "stealthy" or whatnot. Both of these describe tomcats pretty well. Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From X99Lynx at aol.com Mon Jan 8 07:08:15 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 02:08:15 EST Subject: Anthony as Greek? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/6/2001 7:56:06 PM, BMScott at stratos.net writes: << Roman (as distinct from medieval) and its derivatives rather consistently appear with , not the that one would expect in a borrowing of Gk .>> But that may be a function of how early the name entered Latin. Early names that show Greek origins do not necessarily observe the later Roman respect for Greek spellings, e.g., the volcanic from the Gr 'burning', but see the Latin for later imported names from Classical Greek mythology. Other examples might include Latin a word for the ancient custom of placing images near the doorway of homes, from the Gr ; Latin , incense, from the Gr ; and even possibly a name for the Etruscans themselves, which is also attested as . One of the things it is easy to forget is that the Greeks were in contact with both Rome and the Etruscans at an extremely early date. A major Greek colony near Naples, Pithekoussai, was founded about 750 BC. And among the earliest "Roman" burials on Esquiline hill, numbers of Corinthian "olpe" urns have been found, including one that is inscribed with apparently the Greek name "Ktektos" dating from about 725BC. Such contact precedes by many centuries the first appearance of the name Anthony. Whether through the Etruscans or directly, there is clear evidence that the Greeks were there not long after the iron age started and had a considerable technical and cultural influence on the region before we have any evidence of Latin literacy. , the present participle of , flourishing, blossoming, bright, etc. (or perhaps just flower growering) could have entered Latin early enough to have been adapted to the Latin sound preferences, and before the Romans had become careful about their borrowings from Greek. The absence of a clear alternative origin might suggest that a Greek origin shouldn't be dismissed too confidently on the basis of /t/ versus /th/ distinction that early Romans did not always observe well themselves. (Cf., ) <, both with <'Anto:-> >> Would it be expected that the Greeks would recovert a family name back to a Greek pronunciation or written form once it became an established centuries-old Roman name? It would be like the French translating back an English family name like Williams into its French original. This would be unusual in any circumstance, but especially in the case of imperial Romans names. Regards, Steve Long From colkitto at sprint.ca Sun Jan 7 14:04:27 2001 From: colkitto at sprint.ca (Robert Orr) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 09:04:27 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro... Message-ID: >The word shchenit'sja means 'to bear cub; to cub, to whelp' in Russian >(shchenok 'dog cub'), >and Russian kotit'sja means 'to bear kitten (about cats) or other youngling >(about small carnivorous mammal - ferret etc)'. >It is a general model for creation of words that mean 'to bear younglings'. >The Russian telit'sja means 'to bear calve (of cattle, deer etc.)' >(telionok 'calf'), >zherebit'sja 'to bear colt' (zherebenok 'colt'), >yagnit'sja 'to bear lamb' (yagnionok 'lamb')... >The were wild cats (Felis silvestris) in East European forests. And there still are in the Scottish Highlands Robert Orr From petegray at btinternet.com Sun Jan 7 16:20:10 2001 From: petegray at btinternet.com (petegray) Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:20:10 -0000 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: > There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & > Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. I seem to remember Posner > saying something to the extent that [in some cases] Spanish evidently > derived feminine forms from the plurals while French and Italian derived > masculine forms from the singulars My copy of Posner's The Romance Languages has a mention of la leche on page 135, but no discussion of this process of origin. She does, however, mention that some Latin neuters "hesitated in gender" even within Latin - and this is probably the origin of divergent outcomes. Peter From dalazal at hotmail.com Thu Jan 11 01:38:40 2001 From: dalazal at hotmail.com (Diogo Almeida) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:38:40 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: >From: Rick Mc Callister >Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:41:17 -0500 >[DGK] > > Does anyone know why is feminine? > > There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & >Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. But "leite" (portuguese for "leche") is masculine ("o leite"), and I'm pretty sure that it is masculine both in Brazilian and European Portuguese. From bronto at pobox.com Sun Jan 7 02:22:38 2001 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 18:22:38 -0800 Subject: The sun never sets ... Message-ID: JohnYY wrote: > We are discussing the linguistics of a mythic locale - I believe > that Bombay is no more, having been replaced officially by something > like "Mumbai". In that case I'll settle for an old map! ;) -- Anton Sherwood -- br0nt0 at p0b0x.com -- http://ogre.nu/ From douglas at nb.net Wed Jan 10 22:42:10 2001 From: douglas at nb.net (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:42:10 -0500 Subject: Etruscans In-Reply-To: <000b01c07855$31861d00$226163d1@texas.net> Message-ID: > Does anyone out there know where in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? >I have not been able to find it. A tangential reference, I think, Aeneid 8.454: "Haec pater Aeoliis properat dum Lemnius oris, ..." -- Doug Wilson From ipse at hevanet.com Thu Jan 11 01:36:43 2001 From: ipse at hevanet.com (ipse) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:36:43 -0800 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David L. White" Subject: Re: Etruscans > Does anyone out there know where > in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? Aeneid VIII. 454 Haec pater Aeoliis properat dum Lemnius oris, is the only verse which contains the stem 'Lemn-'. David Jensen From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 11 11:23:37 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:23:37 +0100 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David L. White" Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:54 AM > It should also be noted that the words "Trojan" and "Etruscan", not > to mention "Tuscan", "Tyrrhenian", and "Tursha" (an Egyptian term for "Sea > Peoples", who were clearly from the Eastern Med), are quite possibly variant > forms of a single word. "Tarquin" and "Tarsus" might possibly be added to > the list. But we've been through this before. > Does anyone out there know where in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? > I have not been able to find it. > > Dr. David L. White [Ed] As far as I remember, it isn't, although it may be hidden under some mythical place's name. Note that this is not necessary, if Aeneas belonged to another group that sailed to other places. From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 11 02:05:34 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:05:34 -0600 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: > Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible > brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek > words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, > Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. Also "Aplu". But are these names really Greek, in the sense of having IE etymologies? I have heard that of the Greek gods only Zeus is IE. Perhaps we have (in some cases) not mangling but borrowing from a common source. Dr. David L. White From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 11 11:00:28 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:00:28 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanley Friesen" Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:37 AM > At 08:18 PM 1/4/01 +0100, Eduard Selleslagh wrote: >> ... different alphabet and the phonetic evolution during several centuries >> of separation (the date of arrival of the Etruscan's forefathers is rather >> unclear: the estimates vary from the 13th to the 6th c. B.C. But they seem >> to have arrived after the Umbrians had already established themselves in the >> later Etruria: the river now called Ombrone seems to bear their name). >> Example: Etr. - Lemn. (probably meaning 'year(s)'). > Hmm, is there any other evidence for the Umbrians preceding the Etruscans > in Etruria? If this is really what happened it tends to remove the main > objections to the Villanova Culture being associated with Italic speakers. > [It also fits with my ideas about the origin of the italic peoples: if I am > right than the earlier dates for the arrival of the Etruscans would also be > ruled out, leaving circa 8th to 6th c. B.C.]. [Ed] Note that I wrote "it SEEMS..". I am not aware of other arguments. As a non-specialist, I am a bit surprised by your late date for the arrival of the Umbrians (P-Italic). From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 11 11:31:23 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:31:23 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 4:59 PM > Georgiev has a chapter on this topic in his An Introduction to the History of > the Indo-European Languages. Sofia: Bulgarian Academy of Sciences. (1981). > My own knowledge of this topic is rather weak. Any comments on Georgiev's > proposals (which do look quite solid)? [Ed] I haven't read that. Actually I have abandoned the field (of Etruscan) years ago for the ancient non-IE languages of the Iberian peninsula. From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 11 11:07:55 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:07:55 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "proto-language" Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 4:38 AM [ moderator snip ] > [PR] > Could you tell me the source for the opinion that Roma is derived from > Etruscan Ruma? And what is it supposed to mean? > Pat [Ed] I read it in Heurgeon and maybe somewhere in Dum?zil. Actually they mention meaning 'from Rome, Roman', cf. Anatolian , 'from Sardes'. Apparently the meaning is unknown, but that opinion is possibly dated. From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Thu Jan 11 20:43:55 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:43:55 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: <009401c078f2$839e9200$1fc407c6@oemcomputer> Message-ID: [snip] Looking at Adolfo Zavaroni's etymologies of words of putative IE origin in Etruscan, you could easily come to that conclusion. Etruscan seems to have stressed the first syllable and given secondary stress to the 3rd syllable. It had /a, e, i, u/ in alphabet but I'd guess that probably/possibly had a schwa. It also seems to have often aspirated and/or fricativized stops /p/ > /ph, f/ > /h/; /k/ > /kh, x/ > /h/ --at least in its later stages. I'd like to see some sort of chronology regarding aspiration/friciativization or if it was just a case of better writing conventions >I have wondered about whether the Etruscans are somehow related to the >proto-Germans. Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible >brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek >words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, >Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. These names also >make you wonder whether their script was somehow inadequately supplied with >vowels, or made heavy use of abbreviated forms. >Much of Etruscan inflection and derivation, in so far as we can figure it >out at this remove, looks like a well-worn IE language of relatively recent >date. So do most of their pronouns and particles. It's the Etruscan >vocabulary that no one has yet been able to figure. [ moderator snip ] Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From dlwhite at texas.net Wed Jan 10 23:04:55 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:04:55 -0600 Subject: Early Goths as Drinkers Message-ID: > As I mentioned earlier, there is the Gothic verb 'pour out' that > is at the prime basis of seeing "Goth" as stemming from a flooded area or a > different kind of pouring (in the works of such as the Swedish scholar > Thorsten Andersson > "both Goetar, Proto-Germanic *gautoz, and Goths, Gutar, > Proto-Germanic *gutaniz, are nomina agentis based on different ablaut grades > of the verb Sw. gjuta, Germ. gie?en 'to pour', in the sense of 'to pour out > semen'....") That is more or less what I was suggesting earlier. > Because I have, perhaps for only personal reasons, problems with the Goths > naming themselves either the "flood people" or the "semen people," I've > tried to look again at the notion that the Gothic name is not a self-name and > therefore perhaps not Germanic in origin It could be an "other-name" (if that is the opposite of "self-name") from other Germans. If "pour" had in some dialects come to mean 'drink' (perhaps jocularly in the beginning, and/or end), then I suppose it's conceivable that the name meant "drunks" or "drinkers", though I wouldn't bet on it. Dr. David L. White From connolly at memphis.edu Wed Jan 10 22:26:38 2001 From: connolly at memphis.edu (Leo A. Connolly) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:26:38 +0000 Subject: Meaning of ``Goth`` Message-ID: Herb Stahlke wrote: > I don't know Germanic linguistics well, but could /kans/ be > something Notker would have written? > Herb Stahlke > <<< Georg at home.ivm.de 1/ 6 8:37p >>> >> By the way (displaying my ignorance here), how does OHG "kans" appear as >> modern German "gans"? Did only the /d/ -> /t/ part of this shift get fully >> established in standard German? Stefan Georg replied: > It's OHG, MHG, and NHG /gans/. True enough. But initial /g/ is often written or the Bavarian and Alemannic dialects of OHG. In fact, 19th century linguists seemed to regard this as the "proper" development -- they called it "strengalthochdeutsch". In the systems of these dialects, Gmc. /k-/ had become affricate [kx-], usually written or . Gmc. /g/ was the only other velar stop, and in initial position was surely voiceless all or most of the time and, apparently, sometimes fortis [k], to judge from modern Swiss dialects. Notker would have written at the start of a sentence, or if the preceding word ended with an obstruent, apparently indicating the fortis [k]. He wrote after vowels, nasals, and resonants. This is part of the famous Notker'sche Anlautsgesetz. Initial [kx] is now preserved only in certain Austrian dialects; most Alemannic, Bavarian and Austrian dialects have restored [kh], while Swiss dialects have [x]. Gmc. /t/ appears as in OHG, /d/ as in Alemannic, Bavarian, and East Franconian (and in the modern standard language), and /T/ appears as /d/, which Notker writes after obstruents. begin:vcard n:Connolly;Leo A. tel;fax:901-678-5338 tel;work:901-362-9178 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:connolly at memphis.edu x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Leo A. Connolly end:vcard From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 11 03:28:41 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 21:28:41 -0600 Subject: High German /k/ for /g/ Message-ID: >> By the way (displaying my ignorance here), how does OHG "kans" appear as >> modern German "gans"? Did only the /d/ -> /t/ part of this shift get fully >> established in standard German? > It's OHG, MHG, and NHG /gans/. > -- Upon examination ... Old High German is a rather diverse group of dialects, and in early Allemanic and Bavarian, initial "k" corresponding to modern English and German /g/ is more or less regular, or at least predominant. Dr. David L. White From sonno3 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 11 01:26:24 2001 From: sonno3 at hotmail.com (Christopher Gwinn) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:26:24 -0500 Subject: IE 'wolf' Message-ID: > With regard to the 'wolf' thing a while back, where it was stated > that Latin "lupus" is borrowed from a /p/-dialect of Italic, Germanic "wolf" > and so on appear to be the expected Germanic cognates of Latin, "vulpes". > If this is so, then unless I am missing something (a very real possibility), > the /-p/ here is original, as Germanic /kw/ does not (to my knowledge) > change into either /p/ before the shift or /f/ after it. What are to make of Gaulish Louernios (*loup-ern-io), "fox," which may stem from the same root as Indic lopasa, Avestan raopi ? These words are related to Latin lupus in Pokorny. -Chris Gwinn From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 11 01:59:59 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:59:59 -0600 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: > My problem is that the cat words all look too much alike. That is probably because they are all fairly recent loan-words. I seem to recall that (apart from /miu/), there are only two cat-words in general use in European languages, which might be called the /k-/ word and the /p-/word (both of these exist in English). However, though Welsh has /cath/, Irish has (as I recall, I have no decent dictionary here) some version of the /p-/ word, so we cannot even reconstruct a Common Celtic word for 'cat'. The fact(?) that Irish has a /p-/ word for 'cat' of course means that the word cannot be old there. Dr. David L. White From X99Lynx at aol.com Thu Jan 11 07:00:53 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 02:00:53 EST Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/10/2001 7:24:36 PM, rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu writes: << Corominas says cattus "wildcat" was first documented in late Latin 4th c. and springs from an unknown source [Corominas 1980] Buck (1949: 182) goes back to Greek k?ttos, k?tta, g?ttos from an unknown source>> The earlier term for cats in Greek was or . Herodotus describes them in Egypt in a way that seems to indicate that domestic cats were not very familiar to his readers. Aristophanes mentions cats as part of a grabbag of wild game that is to be eaten. might be some kind of a contraction, + , guardian. Or a compound, , ship watcher. (A study in the '70's showed that the spread of the currently dominant feral breed of domestic cat, the blotched tabby, can be traced back to European sea port towns. Associating cats with ships might be the first impression - especially since they served the purpose of protecting grain cargoes against mice and rats.) is also a word in Greek refering to Egyptian desert country and the Libyan desert wildcat is very closely related to the European domestic cat. also brings up the Lynx and , a kind of amber, the word derived by both Latins and Greeks "from lunx, ouron, and supposed to be the coagulated urine of the lynx." Finally there is wailing, cry of anguish. (Cf., Latin , cat; weeping; , to neigh as a horse does). , the original Latin word for domestic cat, is often derived from , referring either to the fecundity of cats or to the good effect they have on preserving growing things and grains against rodents and birds. Lidell-Scott give the first citation of for cat as Aristophanes, but this is ambiguous and may be too early. appears in Greek as rooster, horse and two varieties of fish. may have been a rooster. refers in general to ferrets, martens, polecats and weasels. The lynx is the main wildcat in the Greek world, drawing the chariot of Bacchus and such. In Latin, it is the ferret that gets the job of mouser by name, or , indicating maybe that cats were not that common early on. One possibility, though slightly distasteful to a cat appreciator like myself, is that the cat got its name from the use of its parts. Gr , Att. , to sew, to stitch together like a shoemaker. , a piece of leather (or animal skin.) , stretch, draw tigth, especially a cord or strip of animal skin. Perhaps this is somehow the source of "catgut", for which I haven't seen a decent explanation. (Attested is a Persian or Babylonian fur prepared from mouse skins, or , so anything was possible.) <> Genetically, many domestic cat shows very close ties to the North African breed. (O'Brien, S. J.: Molecular genetics in the domestic cat and its relatives. Trends Genet. 2: 137-142, 1986. Masuda, R., Lopez, J. V., Pecon Slattery, J., Yuhki, N., and O'Brien, S. J.: Molecular phylogeny of mitochondrial cytochrome b and 12S rRNA sequences in the Felidae: Ocelot and domestic cat lineages. Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 6: 351-365, 1996.) A Gaulish origin seems unlikely. But all of the languages cited above could have been influenced by the Hellenistic Greeks. Regards, Steve Long From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 11 01:51:35 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 19:51:35 -0600 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro... Message-ID: >> The were wild cats (Felis silvestris) in East European forests. > And there still are in the Scottish Highlands Not that it matters ... The extinction of European wild cats anywhere in Europe is (I think) fairly recent. Except for having shorter tails, they are very close to African Wild cats anyway. Dr. David L. White From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 11 11:20:19 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:20:19 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 3:04 PM [snip] >> The were wild cats (Felis silvestris) in East European forests. > And there still are in the Scottish Highlands > Robert Orr [Ed] And in S. Belgium, but they are virtually extinct there. From connolly at memphis.edu Wed Jan 10 22:35:39 2001 From: connolly at memphis.edu (Leo A. Connolly) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:35:39 +0000 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: Diogo Almeida wrote: >> From: Rick Mc Callister >> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:41:17 -0500 >> [DGK] >>> Does anyone know why is feminine? >> There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & >> Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. > But "leite" (portuguese for "leche") is masculine ("o leite"), and I'm > pretty sure that it is masculine both in Brazilian and European Portuguese. The larger question is why we have _leche_ (as well as It. _latte_, Fr. _lait_ when there was no **_lactem_ so long as the word was neuter. But if _lactem_ developed, then gender reassignment would be a must, and formally there would have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. Why shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, it's the masculine forms that need explaining. begin:vcard n:Connolly;Leo A. tel;fax:901-678-5338 tel;work:901-362-9178 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:connolly at memphis.edu x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Leo A. Connolly end:vcard From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Thu Jan 11 20:25:50 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 15:25:50 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're right. Please excuse that brain fart. The "odd-ball" feminine forms exist in Spanish and include la leche, la flor, la sangre and a few others --I seem to remember seeing a list of about a dozen or so. I thought it was Posner who linked the treatment of neuters in Romance to singular and plural forms. Does anyone where that idea came from? And more importantly, if it's really valid? Besides having nuanced gendered doublets such as "la mar, el mar", "el charco, la charca", Spanish has a few regional differences in terms of gender with such words as "el calor, la calor", "el sarte/n, la sarte/n", "el di/namo, la dinamo" (I've only seen and heard the feminine variety without an accent). How common is this phenomenon in other Romance languages and other other languages with grammatical gender? >>[DGK] >>> Does anyone know why is feminine? >> There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & >> Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. >But "leite" (portuguese for "leche") is masculine ("o leite"), and I'm >pretty sure that it is masculine both in Brazilian and European Portuguese. Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From r.piva at swissonline.ch Fri Jan 12 19:45:59 2001 From: r.piva at swissonline.ch (Renato Piva) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:45:59 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: Diogo Almeida schrieb: >> From: Rick Mc Callister >> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:41:17 -0500 >> [DGK] >>> Does anyone know why is feminine? >> There is a group of Latin neuters that became feminine in Spanish & >> Portuguese and masculine in French and Italian. The word for milk was feminine in my dialect (Venetian terraferma, province of Vicenza, Italy) at least until two generations ago. My grandmother (born 1899) used to say 'la late', but I say 'el late', and so says my mother/her daughter. I don' t know what dialectal forms may be found in the Atlas of the Italian dialects by Jaberg & Jud, as I have no access to the University library for the moment. But I'm sure that the situation in Italy is (or once was) a bit more complicated than it seems as compared with the simple statement that 'latin neutra became masculine in Italian'. I too would tend to maintain, as has already been pointed out in this discussion, that the gender was influenced by the fact that it is always the female that gives milk. But in the special case of Venetian terraferma one should also take into consideration that there was some influence from German for some time, which I think hasn't been studied toroughly enough, yet. And in German, 'Milch' is of feminine gender. Regards, Renato Piva From evenstar at mail.utexas.edu Fri Jan 12 21:39:08 2001 From: evenstar at mail.utexas.edu (Shilpi Misty Bhadra) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 15:39:08 -0600 Subject: Calcutta/Kolkatta In-Reply-To: <3A57D2EE.CF89D0D0@pobox.com> Message-ID: At 06:22 PM 1/6/01 -0800, you wrote: >JohnYY wrote: >> We are discussing the linguistics of a mythic locale - I believe >> that Bombay is no more, having been replaced officially by something >> like "Mumbai". >In that case I'll settle for an old map! ;) >Anton Sherwood -- br0nt0 at p0b0x.com -- http://ogre.nu/ Calcutta is now Kolkatta in the latest Indian news. Mumbai has been around for a long time, as Chennai for Madras. The early Brits had a hard time with pronouncing Indian names, although they didn't to have much trouble with Delhi (which hasn't changed). ;) My family is from Calcutta/Kolkatta. My mother's maiden name was Basu, but changed to Bose, because it would be easier for the Brits to pronounce. But she hasn't changed her maiden name spelling ... yet! ;) Shilpi Misty Bhadra University of Texas at Austin Ancient History, Classics, and Humanities (focus: Indo-European Studies) senior undergraduate evenstar at mail.utexas.edu 512-320-0229 (ph) 512-476-3367 (fax) From stevegus at aye.net Fri Jan 12 22:57:40 2001 From: stevegus at aye.net (Steve Gustafson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:57:40 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Dr. David L. White wrote: >> Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible >> brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek >> words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, >> Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. > Also "Aplu". But are these names really Greek, in the sense of > having IE etymologies? I have heard that of the Greek gods only Zeus is IE. > Perhaps we have (in some cases) not mangling but borrowing from a common > source. I don't have a classical dictionary handy right here, but yes, most of the Greek names on the list have specifically Greek etymologies. This is what I remember: Hera-kles is "fame [kle(w)os] of Hera." Klytaimnestra also contains the klut- root, here meaning "famous for," but I forget what. "Polydeuces" means "very sweet," and exists as a separate word in Greek with that meaning. (poly + deukos < gleukos). Dio-medes means "protected by Zeus." Mene-laos means "confronting the people." I am not sure if anyone has fathomed an IE etymology for Apollo. There are a number of other deities whose etymology, IIRC, is unknown (Poseidon) or whose Greek etymology is considered dubious or after-the-fact (Aphrodite). There was, of course, a substantial Greek presence in Italy during the years before the rise of Rome as a major power. And, as noted, the Etruscans seem to have some connections on Lemnos and perhaps Asia Minor. While I can imagine widely different cultures inheriting deity names (Tyr/Zeus &c.), it is a bit hard for me to imagine that the Etruscans would have somehow inherited the House of Atreus and Trojan War story cycles from a common source they shared with the Greeks. -- We will walk into the snow, and we will keep walking, until we reach the grey horizon. Ceterum censeo sedem Romanam esse delendam. From sonno3 at hotmail.com Fri Jan 12 23:26:44 2001 From: sonno3 at hotmail.com (Christopher Gwinn) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 18:26:44 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: > Also "Aplu". But are these names really Greek, in the sense of > having IE etymologies? I have heard that of the Greek gods only Zeus is IE. I wouldn't go that far - surely we have a few more like: Pan (Archaic Paon) from PIE *Pausonos "nourisher" (the equivalent of Vedic Pusan) Thygater Dios (epithet of dawn goddess) from PIE *dhugHter diuos "daughter of the sky" (=Lithuanian Dievo Dukte, Indic Duhita Divah) Erynys may represent PIE *sereniuHs "speedy/quick one?" (= Vedic Saranyu). There are others which have PIE etymologies, but no assured direct linguistic matches to gods from other IE groups: Hera (*yer- "season/year") Poseidon (*poti-da-on- "husband of Da (mater)") Dionysos (*diwo-nus-os "nursling of Dyeus") Hades (*sam-wid- "reuniter") Ares, Hephaistos, Artemis and Apollo are usually taken as loans. (Artemis and Apollo perhaps are Anatolian) -Chris Gwinn From sarima at friesen.net Sat Jan 13 01:45:38 2001 From: sarima at friesen.net (Stanley Friesen) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 17:45:38 -0800 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: <00be01c07bc2$0d393a20$2606703e@edsel> Message-ID: At 12:00 PM 1/11/01 +0100, Eduard Selleslagh wrote: >> Hmm, is there any other evidence for the Umbrians preceding the Etruscans >> in Etruria? If this is really what happened it tends to remove the main >> objections to the Villanova Culture being associated with Italic speakers. >> [It also fits with my ideas about the origin of the italic peoples: if I am >> right than the earlier dates for the arrival of the Etruscans would also be >> ruled out, leaving circa 8th to 6th c. B.C.]. >[Ed] >Note that I wrote "it SEEMS..". I am not aware of other arguments. >As a non-specialist, I am a bit surprised by your late date for the arrival of >the Umbrians (P-Italic). I am tentatively using a model that derives the Italics as a whole from the southern portion of the Urnfield Complex, perhaps in two or three waves. This seems to me the best bet for the arrival of a "western" IE language in Italia. Most of the earlier candidates have various problems, to my way of thinking. Thus the various Italic groups would arrive circa 9th century B.C. in my model. This also fits with the general tendency of tribal groups to move into prime territories during "dark ages" such as the one following the near simultaneous fall of Mykenean Greece, the Hittite Empire, and the empires of the fertile crescent - in the 11th c. B.C. -------------- May the peace of God be with you. sarima at ix.netcom.com From stevegus at aye.net Sat Jan 13 02:41:55 2001 From: stevegus at aye.net (Steve Gustafson) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 21:41:55 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Rick McCallister wrote: > I'd like to see some sort of chronology regarding > aspiration/friciativization or if it was just a case of better writing > conventions The example Diomedes > Zimite suggests that these changes were present in pre-Roman times, though I don't have a date for the inscription in which Zimite appears. Since Etruscan seems to have had an unwritten schwa, or at least syllabic nasals and liquids (spellings like Clutmsta leave little option otherwise) it may be that "Zimite" represents something like /(d?)zi: m. i te/, with something like syllabic /m./ as the second syllable, preserving the four syllables of the borrowed Greek word. Like in Coptic, they may have written the syllabic liquids and nasals without a vowel. According to Sihler's Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin, assibilization of T and D is attested by the 3d century A.D. in spellings like "Marsianenses." for "Martianenses." -- We will walk into the snow, and we will keep walking, until we reach the grey horizon. Ceterum censeo sedem Romanam esse delendam. From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sat Jan 13 19:09:05 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:09:05 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: <001701c07b73$07f005c0$e86663d1@texas.net> Message-ID: A very good question Adolfo Zavaroni posits that Etruscan mangling of Greek names and places is at least partially due to folk etymology In books on Greek myth, I've seen a wide gamut of possible origins for names appearing in Greek myth. To give an example, Robert Graves linked almost every Greek deity and mythic character to Greek. Off the top of my head, he, and many other general writers linked Apollo to a word meaning "to destroy"; while Steven Zimmer, in Markey & Greppin [1990: 311 ff] offers the following Pelasgian, non Greek IE of Greece and Balkans Uranos "rainer" [Greek], see OI vars- Kronos, probably Pelasgian corresponding to Greek g?ron; relationship to khr?nos is folk etymology Zeus "bright, daylight sky" see OL Dyaus, Latin dius Hera pre-IE Athene pre-IE Aphrodite pre-IE Hermes pre Greek Apollo pre-IE Anatolian; see Lydian PLdans, Hittite Ap-pa-li-u-na-as^, Luwian Apulunas Artemis < ? "bear goddess"; see Lydian Artimus^, ArtimuL, Artimu-k Dionysus < ? Thracian "Son of Zeus" Poseidon < Poteid?won "Lord, Husband of the Earth" < ? Pelasgian Ares < ar?: < pre-IE Hephaistos pre-Greek, probably pre-IE Demeter "Earth Mother" < ? Messapic, see Messapic damatura [321-22] I suspect that Graves's etymologies are amateurish but I plead the 5th, on the grounds that any testimony I may give may reveal my ignorance :> But I'd like to hear from those in the know >> Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible >> brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek >> words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, >> Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. > Also "Aplu". But are these names really Greek, in the sense of >having IE etymologies? I have heard that of the Greek gods only Zeus is IE. >Perhaps we have (in some cases) not mangling but borrowing from a common >source. > >Dr. David L. White Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From acnasvers at hotmail.com Sun Jan 14 03:21:09 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 03:21:09 -0000 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: >> [ Moderator's note: >> The hypothesis that the Etruscans may have originated in Anatolia appears >> to be supported by the presence on the island of Lemnos of a stele >> inscribed in a language clearly related to but differing from the Etruscan >> of Italy. >> --rma ] >[Ed Selleslagh] >I thought this was something of majority view. Of course, final proof is hard >to get by, and one should keep an open mind. I'll give you some arguments, but >I don't intend to start a new thread on this. >The moderator's note is indeed the main argument. The stele found near Kaminia >on Lemnos (by G. Cousin and F. D|rrbach in 1885) dates from the 6th or 7th c. >B.C. The spelling differences (with Etruscan) can probably be explained by the >different alphabet and the phonetic evolution during several centuries of >separation (the date of arrival of the Etruscan's forefathers is rather >unclear: the estimates vary from the 13th to the 6th c. B.C. But they seem to >have arrived after the Umbrians had already established themselves in the >later Etruria: the river now called Ombrone seems to bear their name). >Example: Etr. - Lemn. (probably meaning 'year(s)'). Examination of the Lemnian stele does not favor the hypothesis of Etruscan emigration from Anatolia. The alphabet of the stele and similar minor inscriptions found on Lemnos belongs to the Euboico-Chalcidian family, not directly related to the Phrygian alphabet used in NW Anatolia and Gordium, and out of place among the East Ionian and Cycladic alphabets typical of the Aegean. Features include the Lemnian use of the zigzag sign as a sibilant (not a vowel as in Phrygian), the fricative value of H (vocalic in East Ionian), the psi-shaped chi (X-shaped in Cycladic and EI), and the existence of vau (digamma, already extinct in EI). The Lemnian alphabet is clearly an intrusion from the West. Indeed it is difficult to derive this alphabet directly from Euboea without going through the Chalcidian models of Greek communities in Italy. For details see Carlo de Simone, "I Tirreni a Lemnos: l'alfabeto" in Studi Etruschi LX, 1994, pp. 145-63. The stele contains the phrase which is plausibly 'grandson of Holaie'; Lemn. Holaie = Hylaeus (A. Trombetti, "La lingua etrusca", Firenze 1928, pp. 188-92). corresponds to Etr. , which is a loanword from Umbrian (A.J. Pfiffig, "Die etruskische Sprache", Graz 1969, p. 297). The stele also contains , evidently the name of the honored/deceased in regular Etruscan form: Aker = praenomen, Tavars'io = gentilicium, Vanalasial = metronymic. To my knowledge *Acer is unattested as a praenomen in Etruria, but its former existence is indicated by the gentilicia Acri (TLE 618; CIE 3987,4257), Acrie (CIE 5039), and Acrni (TLE 442). For parallel derivation see the gentilicia Veli (CIE 3421,3933,4322 etc.), Velie (TLE 7; CIE 752,2702), and Velni (CIE 4335,4682/3), all formed from the common praenomen Vel. This PN-GN-MN naming system originated in central Italy with the Etruscans and Italics before 700 BCE, though it took some 200 years to become established in Campania (M. Cristofani et al., "Il sistema onomastico" in AA. VV. "L'Etrusco arcaico", Firenze 1976, pp. 92-134). Aker's metronymic is based on the feminine gentilicium *Vanalasi. The feminine name-suffix <-i> was borrowed into Etruscan from Italic (de Simone op.cit. note 78). These points strongly suggest that the Etruscan community which left the stele and other inscriptions on Lemnos emigrated from Italy, probably around 650 BCE. The emigration must be dated after the development of the Italo-Etruscan gentilician naming system, but before the establishment of standard writing systems throughout the Etruscan-speaking parts of Italy. Other features of the inscription indicate that "Lemnian" should be regarded as a dialect of Archaic Etruscan, not a separate language, and hence not sufficiently remote from mainland Etruscan to serve for reconstruction of "Uretruskisch" or "Proto-Tyrrhenian". The Lemnian phrase corresponds to Recent Etr. 'of sixty years (of age)' (or 40 if you follow Torp's numeral scheme; cf. TLE 98). Note that Etr. is a genitive sg./pl. 'of year(s)'. The Lemnian dative phrase 'to Hylaeus the Phocaean' corresponds in form to Recent Etr. (TLE 84) and several Arch. Etr. dedicatory inscriptions. The mention of a Phocaean Greek, of course, says nothing about the provenance of these or any other Etruscan-speakers. As for your Ombrone (anc. Umbro), there are two rivers by that name as well as a Calabrian stream formerly called Oumbros. The stem Umbr- has no plausible Umbrian or other IE etymology. It was probably applied to certain rivers by non-Etruscan pre-IE substrate-speakers, then to dwellers in or across a particular river-valley (G. Alessio, "Mediterranei ed Italici nell'Italia centrale" in St. Etr. XXIX, 1961, pp. 191-217). The Umbrians themselves used (Lat. *Narcum nomen) to denote the nation of dwellers in the valley of the Nar (mod. Nera), probably Sabines. There are good reasons to believe that Umbrians antedated Etruscans in this corner of the world, but the hydronym Ombrone is not one of them. >The general aspect of the language is flecting, with elements that recall >(P)IE (e.g. -c, Lat. -que, Greek -te, but that could be contamination), but >more similar to e.g. Lydian (-l, -s genitives), apparently with a strong >initial accent and pileups of consonants. In short: like a cousin rather than >a descendant of ('narrow') PIE. Etruscan nominal morphology is agglutinative and allows redetermination: an oblique case may be substantivized and may serve as the base for further inflection. E.g.: tus' n. 'niche' tus't(h)i loc. 'in the niche' TLE 630,631,655 tus'ur pl. 'niches' tus'urthi loc. 'in the niches' TLE 586,627 tus'urthir pl. 'those (dead spouses) in the niches' TLE 587 papa n. 'grandfather' papals abl. 'from the grandfather' = 'grandchild' TLE 437 papalser pl. 'grandchildren (of male)' TLE 169; Tab. Cort. Calu n. 'god of Death' Calus gen. 'belonging to Calu' cf. TLE 642 Calusur pl. 'those belonging to Calu' = 'the dead' Calusurasi dat. 'to those etc.' = 'to the dead' TLE 172 Can your favorite IE language do that? >A few years ago, M. Carrasquer made a tentative family tree I will send you >privately since this list doesn't allow it. Thank you. I don't dispute the outline of this tree (other than the position of Gmc. which is not presently under discussion). What is needed for serious assessment of Proto-Indo-Tyrrhenian is a table of sound-changes between PT and PIE or PIH (other than the work of certifiable kooks, who are attracted to Etruscan like fruit flies to a banana display). This in turn requires a deeper knowledge of native Etruscan vocabulary. Attempting to reconstruct PIT with current data would be premature at best. If we take the date of 1200 BCE for the presumed Etruscan emigration, and regard the Etruscans of Lemnos as a relict population, we are confronted by the absence of corroboration in the classical authors. Homer does not mention Etruscans (Turse:noi, "Tyrrhenians") on Lemnos; his inhabitants of Lemnos are Sinties (Il. I.593-4; Od. VIII.294). These were Thracians according to Strabo (Geog. VII fr. 45; XII.3.20). Early references to Tyrrhenians (Hesiod, Theog. 1016; "Homeric" Hymn to Dionysus HH 7.8) do not involve Lemnos. Later tradition has the Minyae, descended from the Argonauts, expelled from Lemnos by Pelasgians (Hdt. IV.145; Paus. VII.2.2). The island was eventually taken over by the Athenians (Hdt. VI.139-40). Thucydides, in listing bilingual barbarians living near Athos some years afterward (IV.109.4), mentions Tyrrhenians formerly inhabiting Lemnos and Athens. It is hardly likely that a substantial population of Etruscans lived on Lemnos for several centuries. More probable is a small colony of Etruscans (retired pirates?) between ca. 650-450 BCE, with the majority of the island's inhabitants being Pelasgians at that time. The source of the Anatolian-Etruscan hypothesis is of course the story related by Herodotus (I.94). The Lydians claimed to have colonized Etruria during a long famine, having sent half the population away under the king's son Tyrsenus, whose name was then taken by the colonists. The whole story is presented in indirect discourse depending on 'and the Lydians themselves say...' indicating that Herodotus does not attach factual weight to it. As the historian admits elsewhere (VII.152) 'I am obliged to tell the stories, but I am not obliged to believe them unconditionally'. Among later authors Velleius Paterculus took this story at face-value, but Dionysius Halicarnassius, who spent years actually studying the Etruscans in Etruria, rejected it. VP has had no shortage of successors, even now, who blithely ride the Anatolian-Etruscan bandwagon. >There are also non-linguistic arguments, like the bronze liver of Piacenza, >used as a model by Etruscan fortune tellers, which has N. Mesopotamian >characteristics. Or the considerable Greek content of Etruscan culture. The bronze liver is rather late as Etruscan artefacts go. Greeks had a considerable presence in Italy from early times; the Greek inscription of Gabii is dated to ca. 770 BCE; we can infer that most if not all of the Greek content was transferred to Etruscan culture on Italian soil. A powerful "argumentum ex silentio" against Etruscans coming from Anatolia in the late II-early I mill. BCE is the absence of Mesopotamian deities and motifs in early (un-Hellenized) Etruscan religion. >Although this isn't really an argument, I would like to add this: [snip of material on Aeneid] >All this means is that probably some people from the north-eastern >Mediterranean arrived in Latium or thereabout in or before the earliest >days of >the Roman tradition. I don't dispute the last point. A lot of things happened in the aftermath of the Trojan War. I just don't find it plausible that Etruscan emigration from Anatolia was one of them. DGK From miskec4096 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 14 21:42:50 2001 From: miskec4096 at hotmail.com (Kreso Megyeral) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:42:50 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Steve Gustafson wrote: >I have wondered about whether the Etruscans are somehow related to the >proto-Germans. Like the Germans who must have spoken PIE with a terrible >brogue, the Etruscans seem to have done great phonetic violence to Greek >words they imported. Klytaimnestra = Clutmsta, Herakles = Hercle, >Menelaos = Menle, Polydeuces = Pulutuk, Diomedes = Zimite. These names also >make you wonder whether their script was somehow inadequately supplied with >vowels, or made heavy use of abbreviated forms. The same thing occurs in Albanian in borrowings from Latin (imperator - mbret, parentem - prind, fossatus - fshat), so I suppose it has nothing to do with the script. From petegray at btinternet.com Fri Jan 12 20:05:06 2001 From: petegray at btinternet.com (petegray) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:05:06 -0000 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: > Does anyone out there know where in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? The only reference in the Aeneid to Lemnos is 8:454, Lemnios pater (of Vulcan). It is a reference to Iliad 1:592, and perhaps Od 8:284. Lemnios became the dearest place on earth to Hephaestus (Vulcan). Peter From edsel at glo.be Sun Jan 14 19:01:42 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 20:01:42 +0100 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 11:42 PM >> Does anyone out there know where in the Aeneid Lemnos is mentioned? >> I have not been able to find it. > A tangential reference, I think, Aeneid 8.454: > "Haec pater Aeoliis properat dum Lemnius oris, ..." > -- Doug Wilson [Ed Selleslagh] I'm sorry I had overlooked that. However, this (Pater Lemnius) is simply a reference to Hephaistos/Vulcanus, who was thrown on the island by one of his parents. Nonetheless, the subsequent verses - which I looked up again after your remark - are relevant for Vergilius' idea (and confusion) about the origin of the Etruscans and Italic people: Book 8.478: Haud procul hinc saxo incolitur fundata vetusto urbis Agyllinae sedes, ubi Lydia quondam gens, bello praeclara, iugis insedit Etruscis. ["hinc" (from here) means 'from Rome'. J. Dryden identifies Agylla with the Etruscan city of Caere. His translation of "iugis Etruscis" as "from the Tuscans(' yoke)" is inacceptable: it contradicts the whole context. If it were true, in Vergilius' words, the Lydian immigrants would have chased the Etruscans from the place. That would possibly mean that the Tuscans are confounded with the Umbrians, an interesting possibility] Book 8.499: O Maeoniae delecta iuventus, flos veterum virtusque virum, quos iustus in hostem fert doloret merita accendit Mezentius ira, nulli fas Italo tantam subiungere gentem: externos optate duces.[Maeonia is a region in Lydia]. So he clearly thinks the Etruscans are of Lydian origin (quite common in his days) and are distinct from the Italic people. Of course he has to posit that Aeneas is somehow Italic, otherwise his nationalistic epic wouldn't make sense. On the other hand, he has him come from Troy, a city with a complex history of successive cultures, most probably (in my view) first Anatolian - maybe Hittite or some other/older culture from Anatolia - then Achaean/Greek. Its double name Troy/Ilion could well be a sign of its mixed ethnic/linguistic history: the root IL/R(I), UR(I) is found all over the Eastern Mediterranean (Mesopotamia, Hebrew, some Greek toponyms like Hyria...), and in Basque (iri = city, formerly ili); Iliki (now Alcudia, from 'the hill' in Arabic: it is a tell) was an outpost of an Iberian settlement (now Elche in the Spanish province of Alicante). Troy isn't all that far from Lemnos, on the route to S. Greece and the rest of the Mediterranean. So, all this is compatible with the idea that the Etruscans were of geographically Anatolian origin, and possibly related to peoples speaking a language somehow related to the Anatolian branch of "wide" PIE, and that some of them were (still) in Kaminia on Lemnos in the 6th or 7th c. B.C. If the relation to the Trojan war contains any truth at all, the forefathers of the Etruscans would probably have left the region in the 12th c. B.C., which corresponds to the earliest estimate of their arrival in Etruria. But who would bet on that? These are just some ideas, not intended to convince anyone who has good reasons to think otherwise. Ed. From dalazal at hotmail.com Tue Jan 16 01:15:16 2001 From: dalazal at hotmail.com (Diogo Almeida) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:15:16 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: >From: "Leo A. Connolly" >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 22:35:39 +0000 [ moderator snip ] >The larger question is why we have _leche_ (as well as It. _latte_, Fr. >_lait_ when there was no **_lactem_ so long as the word was neuter. But if >_lactem_ developed, then gender reassignment would be a must, and formally >there would have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. Why >shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, it's >the masculine forms that need explaining. I'm no specialist and I don't know what was the vulgar latin or the early romance word for milk on the Peninsula at that time, but my latin dictionary gives "lacte, is" for milk (and "lac" as an archaic form). I think that "lactem" then, would have been the accusative form (I have to rely on my memory, though, since I don't have any Latin grammar with me :) ). Portuguese, as a general rule, got the accusative form of latin words. So "lactem" being the accusative, it seems likely that the word in Portuguese developed from that form (I don't have an etymological dictionary with me, though). And since neuter was absorbed by the masculine gender in general (at least in Portuguese, I don't know about Spanish), i don't see any problems with "leite" being masculine. On the other hand, "leche" as feminine is strange to me, especially because Portuguese and Spanish normally agree when it comes to the gender of the words. >"formally there would have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. >Why shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, >it's the masculine forms that need explaining." If the gender systems of Portuguese and Spanish were mainly semantically driven, maybe. But they aren't. There is a strong formal element in gender assingment in these languages. And as I said before, I think that neuter words become masculine in Portuguese most of the time (and I guess this is also true for Spanish). Best wishes, Diogo From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sat Jan 13 20:27:43 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:27:43 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro... In-Reply-To: <000901c07b71$1adebde0$e86663d1@texas.net> Message-ID: Do domestic cats only descend from North African cats? Or did they also interbreed with various species of small local wildcats? >>> The were wild cats (Felis silvestris) in East European forests. >> And there still are in the Scottish Highlands > Not that it matters ... > The extinction of European wild cats anywhere in Europe is (I think) >fairly recent. Except for having shorter tails, they are very close to >African Wild cats anyway. >Dr. David L. White Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From acnasvers at hotmail.com Mon Jan 15 11:19:17 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:19:17 -0000 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: On 4 Jan 2001, Rick Mc Callister wrote: >[DGK] >> Alessio rejects the connection between the Sardo-Corsican dog-terms and >> Basque , on phonetic grounds. He suggests might be >> derived from a Ligurian form represented by Late Lat. , Ital. >> 'bloodhound'. >[RMCC] > Corominas is locked up in the library for the next week or so, so I >hope you don't mind me asking how and if Spanish sabueso "bloodhound" is >derived from segusius. It looks possible but messy: I can see sabueso from >something like *sagu"eso < *sagOso- but it gives an open /O/, rather than >closed /o/ that would be expected from /u/ > Or is it directly from substrate? I would guess directly from substrate. Otherwise the /a/ of the first syllable is also hard to derive from Latin /e/. The first "u" of segusius is presumed long on the basis of "grecizzato" egousia, which I neglected to mention in my posting. 3 of the 4 possible variations of /a:e/ correspondence are found in presumed substratal words: Lat. cerrus, It. cerro, Sp. carrasco 'holm-oak' Lat. larix, It. larice, Sp. alerce 'larch' Lat. betula, It. betulla, Sp. abedul 'birch' It. cheppia, Sp. sa'balo, saboga, saboca 'shad' These are practically the only examples I have, so I don't know whether the vowel-alternation and prosthetic /a/ are strictly determined by phonetic environment. >> Ligurians living near Tartessos are reported by Steph. Byz. (s.v. >> Ligustine), and Thuc. (VI.2.2) says the Sicanians claimed to be Iberians >> driven from the basin of the Sikanos (mod. Jucar?) by Ligurians. Alessio >> thus hypothesizes that the Ligurians brought substratal forms from the >> Balkans to southern Spain, whence the Iberians passed some of them (perhaps >> including ) on to the Basques, giving Hubschmid and others the false >> impression that Basque itself originated in the East. > So Alessio proposed the Lusitanians = "IE Ligurians" = Illyrians >hypothesis? By "IE Ligurians", I mean the non-Celtic, non-Italic IE >speakers of N Italy & S France > I've also seen claims that the Sikani themselves were Ligurians >based on toponymic similarities between names in Sicily and Liguria Actually, I have not seen Alessio mention Lusitanians in his papers which I have read so far, and his Ligurians (or Balkano-Ligurians) are non-IE-speakers responsible for substratal material like the examples above. In one of his papers Alessio quotes Festus (414 L.) "Reate orti [Sacrani] qui a Septimontio Ligures Siculosque exegerunt" and argues that this shows the identity of Ligures and Siculi. I don't see this; Festus seems to be referring to two distinct nations. Likewise Alessio reads the identity of Ligues and Sikanoi into Thucydides (VI.2.2), who actually states the Sikanoi claimed to have been driven away from the Sikanos by the Ligues. In my own humble view, the Siculi probably represent the first wave of IE-speakers into Italy, responsible for forms in which PIE medial *dh has become /t/ (Aitne/Aetna, Rutuli, Liternum/Leuternon, and probably the source of Etr. lautni 'freedman'). Thucydides (VI.2.4) says there were still some Siculi in Italy in his time. The Sicani claimed to be Iberians, but if this term is understood geographically, they might be identifiable with the non-Celtic, non-Italic IE-speakers of Liguria, and their later migration to Sicily might explain the similarity of toponyms. Provisionally I prefer to retain "Ligurian" for one of the well-defined pre-IE substrates in Italy, the other being "Pelasgian" (citrus, menta, rosa <- *wrodia, vaccinium, viola, etc.). Etruscan is non-IE but not pre-IE and does not qualify as a substrate. Not that any of this is likely to clear the air... DGK From X99Lynx at aol.com Sat Jan 13 07:16:53 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:16:53 EST Subject: Early Goths as Drinkers Message-ID: In a message dated 1/12/2001 7:16:16 PM, dlwhite at texas.net writes: << It could be an "other-name" (if that is the opposite of "self-name") from other Germans.>> That's a possibility, but it could have been a name given by Celts or Sarmatians or Finns, too. The idea of looking to Greek is simply based on the fact that the name first appears in Greek, and there's a fair lists of tribal names in Greek that seem to or clearly do mean something in Greek, or at least have a folk or conjectured etymology in Greek. Add to the heavy influence that Greek had on the first writing in Gothic (including its script), and it seems reasonable at least to take a look. <> Well, it's a bit more subtle than that. There were strong religious and cultural implications in alcohol among certain groups in that place and time, and one might see them transposed into Christian rituals, for example. The notion of pouring libations over the dead was an old one among the Greeks, mentioned in Homer. Other rituals at meals and certain times of the year also involved offering a pour (maybe a , Gothic, vessels for liquids) to the dead or to spirits. A book which I have not seen came out recently about evidence of feasting in connection with Cernjachov ("Gothic") burials, perhaps something like an Irish wake. The notion suggested by some scholars that the Goths were a religious grouping as much as an ethnic one might suggest that the name might refers to specific, characteristic rituals (as, e.g., "Baptist"). Some connection may be made to the practice of pouring libations to the dead or other such rituals reflected in Greek words like , , and (offering "choai" to the dead, as in the tragedy Choe:phoroi, where the Chorus pours choai to the shade of Agamemnon.) Because our direct knowledge of Gothic is after Christianization in primarily Christian texts, perhaps we only see the remnants of these practices in Gothic words like , , and even perhaps a satemized , sacrifice, burnt-offering. But in all there isn't much sense in betting on any of these interpretations, including the ones about floods and semen, because one appears to be as likely or unlikely as the other. Which is to some degree the point I'm making. Regards, Steve Long From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sat Jan 13 20:25:20 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:25:20 -0500 Subject: cat < ? In-Reply-To: <92.ed95e36.278eb425@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanx for the impressive inventory of feline knowledge Buck [1949: 181] suggests that Greek aie/louros, ai/louros "cat, marten, ferret, weasel, etc." may be from aio/los "quick" + oura/: "tail" In my notes, Buck offers no etymology for Latin fe:le:s "cat, marten, ferret", although Buck says to see Welsh beleu "marten" Someone, maybe Partridge 1958, links feles to Latin meles "badger" I suppose Hindi bhili "cat" would be too fortuitous to suggest a connection based on *bhil-, *bhel-? [snip] >The earlier term for cats in Greek was or . Herodotus >describes them in Egypt in a way that seems to indicate that domestic cats >were not very familiar to his readers. Aristophanes mentions cats as part of >a grabbag of wild game that is to be eaten. Yum! > might be some kind of a contraction, + , >guardian. Or a compound, , ship watcher. (A study in the >'70's showed that the spread of the currently dominant feral breed of >domestic cat, the blotched tabby, can be traced back to European sea port >towns. Associating cats with ships might be the first impression - >especially since they served the purpose of protecting grain cargoes against >mice and rats.) is also a word in Greek refering to Egyptian desert >country and the Libyan desert wildcat is very closely related to the European >domestic cat. So is there a Greek Dick Whittington tale? > also brings up the Lynx and , a kind of >amber, the word derived by both Latins and Greeks "from lunx, ouron, and >supposed to be the coagulated urine of the lynx." Finally there is >wailing, cry of anguish. (Cf., Latin , cat; weeping; >, to neigh as a horse does). > >, the original Latin word for domestic cat, is often derived from >, referring either to the fecundity of cats or to the good effect they >have on preserving growing things and grains against rodents and birds. From what I gather, feles was originally applied to a ferret, mongoose or other type of weasel. I like your ailouros etymology a lot more > >Lidell-Scott give the first citation of for cat as Aristophanes, but >this is ambiguous and may be too early. appears in Greek as >rooster, horse and two varieties of fish. may have been a rooster. > refers in general to ferrets, martens, polecats and weasels. The >lynx is the main wildcat in the Greek world, drawing the chariot of >Bacchus and such. In Latin, it is the ferret that gets the job of mouser by >name, or , indicating maybe that cats were not that >common early on. Are there any known IE roots for these words? > >One possibility, though slightly distasteful to a cat appreciator like >myself, is that the cat got its name from the use of its parts. > >Gr , Att. , to sew, to stitch together like a shoemaker. >, a piece of leather (or animal skin.) , stretch, draw >tigth, especially a cord or strip of animal skin. Perhaps this is somehow >the source of "catgut", for which I haven't seen a decent explanation. >(Attested is a Persian or Babylonian fur prepared from mouse skins, > or , so anything was possible.) My intuition is that cats would have been too valuable but in a society that feasted on lark's tongues, anything's possible [snip] >Genetically, many domestic cat shows very close ties to the North African >breed. [snip] So, if we could only find a Berber word of sufficient antiquity linked both semantically and phonologically. But I suppose if one existed, it would already be cited in OED Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Sat Jan 13 20:46:48 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:46:48 -0500 Subject: dulcis/lac? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember seeing something like that bruited about and rejected for whatever reason --too long? too complex? It may have been in a post by Alexis Manaster Ramer, I'm not sure If [something like] *dlak- were indeed possible I'm wondering 1. If there were a possibility of a semantic link to Buck's proposed *dluk- [if it is indeed valid] based on "sweet, sweetness, sweet liquid" 2. If this works, then if milk might not spring a type of calque based on *mel- "honey" > *mlak-, *melgh-, etc. meaning something like "sweet, sweet liquid, honeyed, honey liquid" I believe there are proposed Nostratic roots for "milk" & "honey" based on [off the top of my head] something like *ml-, *mlk-/mlgh-; so such a connection would not necessarily upset the Nostratic apple cart --but that's something we can discuss on FM :> >> I noticed that Buck [among others] suggests >> Latin dulcis & Greek gluku/s < *dluk- >> I'm wondering if there's any possibility of >> Latin lac, lact- & Greek gala, galakt- < *dlak- >> I've also seen Latin loquor linked to [something like] Gaelic tlu-, >> and English talk >OTOH, *gmlkt has the advantage of, with suitable snippage, >giving also the Germanic form... >--And. Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From dlwhite at texas.net Sun Jan 14 14:58:01 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:58:01 -0600 Subject: IE 'wolf' Message-ID: > What are to make of Gaulish Louernios (*loup-ern-io), "fox," which may stem > from the same root as Indic lopasa, Avestan raopi ? These words are related > to Latin lupus in Pokorny. > -Chris Gwinn I supose that the 'wolf' and 'fox' words are ultimately splits from a single word, and that both were subject to tabu deformation. Re-stating, hopefully more clearly, what I originally said, it appears that we have 1) a variation between /lu/ and /wl/, and 2) a variation between /k(w)/ and /p/. All four possibilities are found meaning 'wolf' in some IE language. I hope this attempt at a table makes it. It probably won't ... /lu/ /wl/ /k(w)/ luka vlka /p/ lupo wolf These variations do not, as far as I know, seem to be due to sound-change or borrowing, as they are not generally characteristic of the various branches in question. The first part, /lu/ or /wl/, may well be relatable by sound-symbolism to various words for 'howl' (which itself is, or was, an example), or 'be destroyed' (Greek 'olumi'), or the sound made by modern Middle Eastern women at funerals and what not. Dr. David L. White From alderson at xkl.com Thu Jan 18 19:03:42 2001 From: alderson at xkl.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 14:03:42 -0500 Subject: [juhani.klemola@helsinki.fi: Call for Papers] Message-ID: I am forwarding the following announcement with the permission of Dr. Klemola. Requests for further information should be sent to the conference addresses below. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Message-ID: <3A64630B.6891.134BE56 at localhost> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:22:17 EST Reply-To: juhani.klemola at helsinki.fi From: Juhani Klemola Subject: Call for Papers To: HISTLING at VM.SC.EDU ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Call for Papers International Colloquium on Early Contacts between English and the Celtic Languages University of Joensuu Research Station, Mekrijarvi, Finland 24-26 August, 2001 Scholars interested in historical and linguistic contacts between English and the Celtic languages are invited to offer contributions to the "International Colloquium on Early Contacts between English and the Celtic Languages", which will be held from August 24 to 26, 2001, at the University of Joensuu Research Station in Mekrijarvi, North Karelia, Finland. The aim of the Colloquium is to bring together distinguished scholars =96 historians, Celticists, Anglicists, and general linguists =96 to discuss the nature and extent of the historical and linguistic contacts between speakers of Celtic languages and speakers of Germanic languages and their impact on the development of the English language. Despite the recent rise of interest in the possibility of Celtic substratum influences in English, there have so far been few opportunities for scholars working on different aspects of this question to come together and exchange their findings. It is the purpose of this Colloquium to provide a forum for such discussion. A selection of the papers will be published. The contributions are expected to address questions relating to the following broad topics: (i) the historical background to the early (i.e. medieval and early modern) contacts between speakers of Celtic and Germanic languages; (ii)the linguistic outcomes of the early contacts in phonology, grammar and lexis. The following speakers are already confirmed: Anders Ahlqvist (Galway), Andrew Breeze (Navarra), Richard Coates (Sussex), Nick Higham (Manchester), Cathair =D3 Dochairtaigh (Glasgow), Erich Poppe (Marburg), Peter Schrijver (Munich), Hildegard L.C. Tristram (Potsdam), Theo Vennemann (Munich), and Kalevi Wiik (Turku). The Colloquium will be organised by the project group =93English and Celtic in Contact=94, whose members are Prof. Markku Filppula (University of Joensuu), Dr. Juhani Klemola (University of Helsinki), and Ms Heli Pitkanen (University of Joensuu). Funded by the Academy of Finland, this project is run jointly by the Department of English, University of Joensuu, and the Research Unit for Variation and Change in English, University of Helsinki. (For more information about the project please check the website http://www.joensuu.fi/fld/ecc/) Please note that only a limited number of papers (20+10 minutes) can be accepted because of the limitations of space at the Mekrijarvi Research Station. The conference fee of FIM 1000 (approx. =A3100 sterling) will cover 3 nights' full board and lodging at Mekrijarvi from Thursday evening to Sunday afternoon, and coach transportation from Joensuu to Mekrijarvi on the evening of Thursday 23 August and back to Joensuu on Sunday 26 August. The programme will run from Friday morning till Sunday afternoon. Abstracts (maximum 1 page) and all enquiries should be sent to Dr Juhani Klemola, e-mail juhani.klemola at helsinki.fi (conventional mail: Department of English, University of Helsinki, P.O. Box 3, FIN-00014 University of Helsinki, Finland). The deadline for submission is 15 March, 2001. ------- End of forwarded message ------- From xavier.delamarre at free.fr Tue Jan 16 08:35:28 2001 From: xavier.delamarre at free.fr (Xavier Delamarre) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:35:28 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We must thank Douglas G. Kilday for his extremely clear, balanced and convincing presentation of Etruscan origins. X. Delamarre From stevegus at aye.net Tue Jan 16 04:49:20 2001 From: stevegus at aye.net (Steve Gustafson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:49:20 -0500 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Douglas G. Kilday wrote: > Etruscan nominal morphology is agglutinative and allows redetermination: an > oblique case may be substantivized and may serve as the base for further > inflection. E.g.: > tus' n. 'niche' > tus't(h)i loc. 'in the niche' TLE 630,631,655 > tus'ur pl. 'niches' > tus'urthi loc. 'in the niches' TLE 586,627 > tus'urthir pl. 'those (dead spouses) in the niches' TLE 587 > papa n. 'grandfather' > papals abl. 'from the grandfather' = 'grandchild' TLE 437 > papalser pl. 'grandchildren (of male)' TLE 169; Tab. Cort. > Calu n. 'god of Death' > Calus gen. 'belonging to Calu' cf. TLE 642 > Calusur pl. 'those belonging to Calu' = 'the dead' > Calusurasi dat. 'to those etc.' = 'to the dead' TLE 172 > Can your favorite IE language do that? Not often, no. But my understanding is that the business of the reconstruction of the IE noun case system reveals a number of both stillborn and fossil cases that, had they been generalised, would have added to the number of cases recoverable. Moreover, my recollection is that the existence of languages with otherwise conservative morphology, like Greek, Gothic, and Hittite, that never seem to have had the full complement of Sanskrit cases, and the strongly different system that prevails in the Tocharian languages, has led some to suggest that the PIE cases may have been added to, rather than subtracted from. The Sanskrit, Celtic, and Latin cases that are formed in the plural on *-bh- seem to be elaborations on a common suffix, at least somewhat comparable to the Etruscan cases. Germanic and Slavic apparently used a different suffix, *-m-, and Slavic may have worked it the same way. This suggests to me, that the PIE cases may once have had agglutinative features, and that we can still see part of the process by which they were built up. Moreover, the *bh- suffix has been fossilized in Greek words like -thyrephi-, "outside." This was once a productive instrumental style case in Greek, as revealed in Mycenean ko-ru-pi, "with helmets," and po-ni-ki-pi, "using purple dye." Of course, you now have N. English fossil case forms like "seldom" and "random." This last, at least, can be nouned as well, and made the base of new formations like "randomize." English and Scandinavian also exhibit the interesting trait of vagrant case markers, of the "Queen of England's knickers" type. PIE can't do this either. I may be a certifiable kook [and I cheerfully confess, no more than an interested amateur], but it seems that the Etruscan noun morphology --- though it has obviously been substantially reshaped --- does not rule out that there may be a common ancestor between PIE and Etruscan. I would not speculate that Etruscan is a direct descendant of PIE. Etruscan strikes me as interesting, in that it seems a logical place to -test- theories about super-families. -- Farouche et raffolant des donjons moyen bge, J'irais m'ensevelir au fond d'un vieux manoir: Comme je humerais le mysthre qui nage Entre de vastes murs tendus de velours noir! --- Maurice Rollinat From proto-language at email.msn.com Tue Jan 16 16:06:31 2001 From: proto-language at email.msn.com (proto-language) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:06:31 -0600 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Dear Rick and IEists: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Mc Callister" Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 1:09 PM Off the top of my head, he, and many other general writers linked Apollo to a word meaning "to destroy"; while Steven Zimmer, in Markey & Greppin [1990: 311 ff] offers the following [PR] Some may be interested in my attempt to etymologize Apollo as *apa-, 'father' + *leun-, 'lion', at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/apollo.htm Pat PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE at email.msn.com (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindg? mei?i a netr allar n?o, geiri vnda?r . . . a ?eim mei?i, er mangi veit, hvers hann af r?tom renn." (H?vam?l 138) From mcv at wxs.nl Tue Jan 16 19:30:05 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:30:05 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Jan 2001 03:21:09 -0000, "Douglas G Kilday" wrote: >Examination of the Lemnian stele does not favor the hypothesis of Etruscan >emigration from Anatolia. The alphabet of the stele and similar minor >inscriptions found on Lemnos belongs to the Euboico-Chalcidian family, not >directly related to the Phrygian alphabet used in NW Anatolia and Gordium, >and out of place among the East Ionian and Cycladic alphabets typical of the >Aegean. Features include the Lemnian use of the zigzag sign as a sibilant >(not a vowel as in Phrygian), the fricative value of H (vocalic in East >Ionian), the psi-shaped chi (X-shaped in Cycladic and EI), and the existence >of vau (digamma, already extinct in EI). The Lemnian alphabet is clearly an >intrusion from the West. Indeed it is difficult to derive this alphabet >directly from Euboea without going through the Chalcidian models of Greek >communities in Italy. For details see Carlo de Simone, "I Tirreni a Lemnos: >l'alfabeto" in Studi Etruschi LX, 1994, pp. 145-63. But Lemnos is only 50km or so off the Chalcidian coast. It is definitely not an Ionian, Aeolic or Cycladic island. In fact, the surprising thing would be if the alphabet did *not* belong to the Euboico-Chalcidian family. >The stele contains the phrase which is plausibly >'grandson of Holaie'; Lemn. Holaie = Hylaeus (A. Trombetti, "La lingua >etrusca", Firenze 1928, pp. 188-92). corresponds to Etr. , > which is a loanword from Umbrian (A.J. Pfiffig, "Die etruskische >Sprache", Graz 1969, p. 297). Larissa Bonfante says the word was borrowed in Etruscan from Latin, and in fact it might have been borrowed from any Indo-European language having a reflex of *nepot-, including Greek (Homeric ) or even Carian ( or "child", if I can trust Woudhuizen's sources [Meriggi]). So this word is rather inconclusive, except that it's obviously easier to go from to than the other way around. >The stele also contains vanalasial>, evidently the name of the honored/deceased in regular Etruscan >form: Aker = praenomen, Tavars'io = gentilicium, Vanalasial = metronymic. The two lines are usually read: "vanalasial s'eronai morinail / aker tavars'io" (I'm sure there's a reason for reading "vanalasial", but on every copy I've seen, what I read is: "va.m.ala.sial: s'eronaimorinail"). There is no compelling reason not to accept your alternative reading "Aker Tavars'io / Vanalasial S'eronai Morinail", but if the first 3 words are the name of the deceased, what is the meaning of , apparently the genitive of "in Seruna, in Murina"? I'm personally convinced that the name of the deceased is "S'ivai", as the central message of the stele seems to be (repeated twice: in the front center, and on the side): S'ivai evistho S'eronaith sialchveis' avis' maras'm av[is' ais'] / S'ivai avis' sialchvis' maras'm avis' aomai [approxiamtely: "Sivai, "evistho" in Seruna, of years 60[?] and[?] 5[?] years died[?]"]. >Other features of the inscription indicate that "Lemnian" should be regarded >as a dialect of Archaic Etruscan, not a separate language, and hence not >sufficiently remote from mainland Etruscan to serve for reconstruction of >"Uretruskisch" or "Proto-Tyrrhenian". The Lemnian phrase >corresponds to Recent Etr. 'of sixty years (of age)' (or >40 if you follow Torp's numeral scheme; cf. TLE 98). Note that Etr. >is a genitive sg./pl. 'of year(s)'. The Lemnian dative phrase phokiasiale> 'to Hylaeus the Phocaean' corresponds in form to Recent Etr. > (TLE 84) and several Arch. Etr. dedicatory >inscriptions. On the other hand, Lemnian shows little or no trace of the ubiquitous Etruscan 3rd.p. preterit ending -ce (there is , but in view of , one can doubt whether this is a verb or a reference to Phocaea), and it is in fact impossible to recognize any verbal form in Lemnian (maybe -io ?). The gap between and has already been commented on. Neither nor occur in this short fragment (and how would Lemnian have rendered ?), and Etr. (no ) is Lemnian (no ) [this might merely be an orthographic issue, in view of Morina=Murina]. Lemnian in the formula must surely be a numeral, but fits none of the Etruscan ones (the only one that comes even remotely close is "5", a little bit closer [but still remote] if we consider the derivative "50", showing that the -ch was not part of the root, but probably identical to -c(h) "and" [cf. PIE *pen-kwe "... and 5"], so something like *mawa-k(h) "[... and ]5", *mawa-alkh "50"). In sum, I see little reason to think that Lemnian differs only trivially from Etruscan, despite the fact that it is clearly related to it. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From kcummings at iprimus.com.au Thu Jan 18 01:17:45 2001 From: kcummings at iprimus.com.au (Katherine Cummings) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 12:17:45 +1100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Ref Hercle, Zimite Message-ID: Attic cognates in Etruscan 1 Herakles = Hercle Hercle is a mild profanity in the plays of TERENTIVS. This demotic form was considered to derive, not from Lt HERCVLES, but from Gk Herakles, Approximately, Godammit! / Bloody Hell! But is it Etruscan? Did Roman citizens of the mid-2nd BPE all swear in Etruscan? 2 Pat Ryan (6 Jan 2001) wrote: >Could you tell me the source for the opinion that Roma is derived from >Etruscan Ruma? And what is it supposed to mean? This opinion is brought to you by the "can't-find-plausible-IE-cognates-so-it-must-be-Etruscan" school of Latin etymology. The Etruscan form Ruma is inferred from Cneve Tarchunies Rumach (equiv. to Lat. Gnaeus Tarquinius Romanus), slain by the Vulcentine warrior Marce Camitlnas as depicted in paintings from the "Francois" tomb of Vel Saties (TLE 297-300; CIE 5266-75). There is also a gentilicium Rumate/Rumathe (CIE 1944,4883,4885) meaning 'from Rome'. Ruma is most likely an adaptation of Roma, not the other way around. Etruscan does not distinguish /o:u/ and generally uses U to replace O in borrowed roots. On the other hand when native Etruscan names having U before a single consonant in the root are borrowed into Latin, the U is retained (e.g. Spurinna, Fusios/Furius). Hence if Ruma were Etruscan in origin, one would expect Latin Ruma as well. The name Roma probably predates Etruscan influence in the area and comes from some other source. The most plausible conjecture for the meaning of Roma is 'ford, crossing', since it was the most practical site for traffic between Etruria and Latium to cross the Tiber. 'Bridge' is out, as there was no bridge here before the Pons Sublicius, and there is no evidence that the city's name was changed when the bridge was built. DGK From dlwhite at texas.net Mon Jan 15 22:13:26 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:13:26 -0600 Subject: Etruscan Deonyms Message-ID: I guess probably most of those wgod-names are manglings from Greek, perhaps even "Aplu". Still, I venture to wonder (having no etymological dictionaries of any kind here to guide me) whether some of these etymologies may not be specifically Greek rather than generally IE. I have not been able, in my somewhat pathetic efforts, to find "laos" outside of Greek, for example, though it's probably out there, somewhere ... Dr. David L. White From dlwhite at texas.net Mon Jan 15 22:18:45 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:18:45 -0600 Subject: Greek Gods Message-ID: >>I have heard that of the Greek gods only Zeus is IE. > I wouldn't go that far - surely we have a few more Sorry. The statement I was thinking of referred only to the major (12?) gods of the pantheon. Dr. David L. White From dlwhite at texas.net Tue Jan 16 03:19:21 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:19:21 -0600 Subject: Early Goths as Drinkers Message-ID: Harking back to an earlier emissive, I would like to know more about how the name of the Goths is supposed to have been from two different agent nouns, each from a different ablaut grade. It would also be good to know how the /o/ got there in Latin. One possibility is that the name (as it reached Latin) is indeed an "other-name" from other Germanic, in which case /o/ rather than /u/ in a past-participle of /geutan/ (more or less) would in fact be regular. Or, to put it perhaps more clearly, the from with /o/ would be the non-Gothic Germanic, whereas the form with /u/ would be the Gothic version. That the Greeks were in contact with the Goths whereas the Romans were in contact with other Germanic tribes might explain this difference, which as far as I can see has no other explanation. Dr. David L. White From dlwhite at texas.net Tue Jan 16 03:28:55 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:28:55 -0600 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: > From what I gather, feles was originally applied to a ferret, mongoose or > other type of weasel. I like your ailouros etymology a lot more A truly minor point ... Mongooses (-geese?) are viverrids, not mustelids, and only one type of viverrid, the genet (not mongoose) of Iberia (spreading recently to France and even western Germany), occurs in Europe. For the Romans to call a mongoose a cat would have been more or less as for us to call skunks 'polecats' or a kind of racoon 'ringtail cats'. Not that that stops us. Speaking of deplorable, or understandable, vagueness in terms for animal, it is within the realm of possibility the word for 'fox' and 'wolf' were not originally distinguished, which would explain a few things. Dr. David L. White From X99Lynx at aol.com Tue Jan 16 13:20:09 2001 From: X99Lynx at aol.com (X99Lynx at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 08:20:09 EST Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: In a message dated 1/15/2001 9:52:56 PM, rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu writes: << Buck [1949: 181] suggests that Greek aie/louros, ai/louros "cat, marten, ferret, weasel, etc." may be from aio/los "quick" + oura/: "tail" >> Yes, but it's exactly the ferret connection to this and other cat words that suggest the concept of the animals was functional rather than descriptive, ferrets not looking a lot like cats except perhaps in size. The tail idea also occurs in squirrel, interpreted as 'shadow-tail.' But the shadow part , sometimes land overgrown with bushes, scrub.) Without going into gory details, also seems to refer to the variegated or glistening pieces of clothing, embroidery, sheen, the making of multi-colored garments, embellishments or adornments, like fur collars; cf. , "glittering girdle",in Homer; multi-colored turban; , man's upper garment. However, wagtail; stump-tailed. There are a lot of Gr words that refer to snake or serpents, of course, with similar forms, e.g., , , and one wonders if 'tail' and 'snake' originally shared just a descriptive element or whether a common function was involved. Regards, S. Long From kastytis.beitas at gf.vu.lt Wed Jan 17 05:51:18 2001 From: kastytis.beitas at gf.vu.lt (Kastytis Beitas) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 06:51:18 +0100 Subject: cat < ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can propose other possible origin for some 'non-cat' cat words. I think it is a rather frequent case when predatory animal is named according its prey. For example, in Lithuanian: peleda "owl" <-- pele "mous" + eda "to eat", zhuvedra "tern on gull" <-- zhuvis 'fish' + eda "to eat" (or edrus "voracious") In English: polecat or polcat at 1320 "ferret" <-- Old French poule, pol "fowl, hen" + cat It is semantically plausible that rodents names can be transformed to mouse hunter's (cat's or some Mustellidae mammal's) name. Similarity of motivation of these predator naming is seen in English polecat "ferret; Mustella putorius". And names of small rodents (and sometimes of shrew though shrew isn't a rodent but is similar to mice) are related to words with meanings "to make a hole; to peck etc". For example, Lithuanian kirstukas "shrew" <-- kirsti "to hack, to cut" or English shrew (etymology unknown?) and to shred. This relation is based on holes that are made by mices in pelts, clothes etc. or shredding or chapping straw or similar material to small litter... The part of semantic niche net is similar to this: "cat" "marten" <-- "mouse" A | "to peck; to make hole; to hit etc" --> "to beat to pulp" | | V V "to smash to parts, to make small" "pulp; gruel etc; material of similar consistence" For example: 1. Latin feles 'cat' reminds of Lithuanian pele 'mouse'. In Watkins Dictionary of Indo-European Roots pel- means "to thrust, to strike". >I suppose Hindi bhili "cat" would be too fortuitous to suggest a connection >based on *bhil-, *bhel-? 2. Hindi bhili 'cat' <-> Russian bilo 'thing for beating', Eng. beat etc. (maybe this bhili is cognate to Lithuanian pele) > >In Latin, it is the ferret that gets the job of mouser by > >name, or , indicating maybe that cats were not that > >common early on. 3. So mustella 'marten' <-> Latin mus, English mouse, German Maus, Polish mysz, Russian mysh' Chernykh in his 'Historically-Etymological Dictionary of Modern Russian Language' writes that Latin mus, Polish mysz, Russian mysh' may be origined from IE word with meanings "plunderer, spoiler". Chernykh states that mus and mysh' are cognates with Russian mukha 'fly' /and Latin musca 'fly'/. This comparison of mouse anf fly supports my hypothesis, because other possible meaning for 'fly-words' is a "bitter; one who bites". This fits to "bee-words" too: in Lithuanian bite "bee" etc. Armenian muk 'mouse' is similar to Russian muka "flour; what is grinded' and Russian muka "suffering"... English mouse and German Maus are similar to Russian musor "debris; litter". Chernykh states that musor is cognate with Russian musolit' "slabber, slaver" and both them are originated from IE *meu-, *mou- "damp, moist" and "liquid dirt; mud". But this cognateness is between musor and mud, moist is more distant in my opinion: musor is originated as "litter, produced by chapping (or by mice?)"... >Someone, maybe Partridge 1958, links feles to Latin meles "badger" 4. Latin meles "badger" <-> words with meanings 'to grind; to transfor to small parts' English mill Lithuanian male is past tense verb with meaning 'grind, mill' (but Lithuanian meleta means a few species of woodpecker) Russian melet 'to mill (present tense)', molot 'hammer' > >Gr , Att. , to sew, to stitch together like a shoemaker. > >, a piece of leather (or animal skin.) , stretch, draw > >tigth, especially a cord or strip of animal skin. Perhaps this is somehow > >the source of "catgut", for which I haven't seen a decent explanation. > >(Attested is a Persian or Babylonian fur prepared from mouse skins, > > or , so anything was possible.) So there is some basis to state that this all-Indo-European word cat in all its variations may by descendant of some Indo-European root with meaning "to hit, to strike, to make hole etc". Distant cognate of this hypothetical (?) root may be Watkins's kat- "to fight" and kat- "down". May be distant relatives of this are Lithuanian kietas and Latvian ciets "hard (vs. soft)". Or cut in Chambers Dictionary of Etymology: ,,Probably before 1300 either as: cutten <...>, kitten <...>; of uncertain orrigin (possibly borrowed from Scandinavian source; compare Swedish dialect kuta, kata "to cut", kuta "knife", and Icelandic kuti "knife". '' This excerpt from Chambers Dict.of Etym. reminds on my old posting (Lith. peilis "knife" <-> Lith. pele "mous"): >The similar case is with Lithuanian "peilis" 'knife'. It is similar to >Russian "pila" 'saw', Lat. "pilum" 'heavy javelin, pestle', OHG "pfil" '>arrow, stake'. >In this context OE "pil" 'stake, shaft, spike' and Eng "pile" 'arrow, dart' >may be not borrowings as it is stated in Chambers Dict. of Etym. ( p.794)] >but words of common Indo-European origin. So distant relativeof English cat or Lithuanian kate "male cat" or Russian kot "male cat" may be English kettle, Lithuanian katilas "kettle": In Chambers Dict.of Etym.: ,,kettle -- <...> borrowed directly from Latin catillus "small bowl, dish or plate", diminutive of catinus "bowl, dish, pot"; perhaps cognate with Greek kotyle "small vessel, cup" <...>. '' Hypothetical chain of semantic changes from kettle to cat: cat "hunter of mouse" <-> ?? "who makes holes" <-> "to strike" <-> "to hollow out" <-> "vessel, plate, cup, made by hollowing" <-> "kettle". ********************************** Kastytis Beitas ---------------------------------- Department of Biochemistry and Biophysics Faculty of Natural Sciences Vilnius University Ciurlionio 21 Vilnius 2009, Lithuania ---------------------------------- Fax: (370 2)235409 E-Mail: kastytis.beitas at gf.vu.lt ********************************** From dlwhite at texas.net Tue Jan 16 03:33:07 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:33:07 -0600 Subject: Origin of Cats Message-ID: > Do domestic cats only descend from North African cats? Or did they > also interbreed with various species of small local wildcats? Not various species, as 1) the African wildcat, 2) the European wildcat, and 3) the domestic cat are all these days considered sub-species of a single species. A little genetic inflow from European wild cats would, I think, have been virtually inevitable, though perhaps there is something in the genetic information supplied by others that contradicts this. Dr. David L. White From r.clark at auckland.ac.nz Tue Jan 16 04:29:01 2001 From: r.clark at auckland.ac.nz (Ross Clark (FOA LING)) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 17:29:01 +1300 Subject: Calcutta/Kolkatta Message-ID: Can you explain exactly what sorts of phonological difficulties "Kolkatta", "Mumbai", "Chennai" or "Basu" would have presented for "early Brits"? Ross Clark -----Original Message----- From: Shilpi Misty Bhadra [mailto:evenstar at mail.utexas.edu] Sent: Saturday, 13 January 2001 10:39 a.m. [ moderator snip ] Calcutta is now Kolkatta in the latest Indian news. Mumbai has been around for a long time, as Chennai for Madras. The early Brits had a hard time with pronouncing Indian names, although they didn't to have much trouble with Delhi (which hasn't changed). ;) My family is from Calcutta/Kolkatta. My mother's maiden name was Basu, but changed to Bose, because it would be easier for the Brits to pronounce. But she hasn't changed her maiden name spelling ... yet! ;) From rohan.oberoi at cornell.edu Wed Jan 17 13:10:55 2001 From: rohan.oberoi at cornell.edu (rohan.oberoi at cornell.edu) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:10:55 -0500 Subject: Calcutta/Kolkatta Message-ID: [ moderator edited ] >Calcutta is now Kolkatta in the latest Indian news. Mumbai has been around >for a long time, as Chennai for Madras. The early Brits had a hard time >with pronouncing Indian names, although they didn't to have much trouble >with Delhi (which hasn't changed). ;) My family is from Calcutta/Kolkatta. >My mother's maiden name was Basu, but changed to Bose, because it would be >easier for the Brits to pronounce. But she hasn't changed her maiden name >spelling ... yet! ;) > >Shilpi Misty Bhadra The problematic nature of these exercises is well illustrated by Shilpi's transcription of the new name as Kolkatta. While her double 't' is more (though hardly completely) faithful to the Bengali pronunciation, it's wrong. The new 'official' name is 'Kolkata'. Transcribing it in what many see (wrongly) as India's 'national' language would give something closer to 'Kalkatta'. But, since there is no good mapping of the sounds of Indian languages to a Roman alphabet that is in general use for writing (other than in a few specialised applications, like the names of Hindi films), no solution based on a Roman alphabet will work. I think it is therefore an extreme oversimplification, Shilpi, to say that this is a matter of Brits having trouble with Indian names. They certainly did, but Indians have as much trouble with Indian names; I have yet to meet an Indian non-Bengali-speaker who uses an 'o' instead of an 'a' in the first syllable of Calcutta (however spelt). I have tried (and failed) to understand why changing the 'official' English version is such an issue in India. It definitely has something to do with the unique linguistic/political status of English in South Asia, and probably with some national insecurities tied in to that. After all, you don't see the the Russians agitating for Moscow to be changed to Moskva, the Poles for Warsaw to be changed to Varshava, or the Italians for Rome to be changed to Roma. In those cases, I believe, the authoritative and official version is regarded as the the one in the local language and script, and all other versions in foreign languages are accepted as convenience dictates. But, for Calcutta, declaring that the official name will be the city's name as written in the Bengali (sorry, Bangla) script is not an option because the Central government would never accept the precedent. Nor is declaring it the name as written in Hindi in the Devanagari script, because the Bengalis would never accept that. Hence the unsatisfactory compromise of Kolkata. Most Indians had never heard of Chennai before the name was changed, and the majority of non-Maharashtrians do not seem to use the name 'Mumbai' to this day. (Also, Punjabis generally refer to all South Indians as 'Madrasis', a perfectly reasonable nomenclature derived from the time when most of South India was part of the Madras Presidency, and Chennai is very unlikely to make much headway against this). Finally, the Brits quite certainly did have trouble with Delhi, which is the only city in India that could make a good case for a reversion, precisely because it was the only one of the four (Bangalore being a recent upstart) that became a metropolis before and without British occupation. (Calcutta, Madras and Bombay were all 'greenfield' developments by the British -- there was nothing there before the development of British factories and administrative capitals, to say nothing of the security offered to traders by British arms -- it is not a coincidence that Bombay eclipsed Surat precisely at the time when the Mughals were no longer there to defend the latter city, which was twice sacked by Shivaji). The old pronunciation of Delhi could be roughly transcribed 'Dehli' (Urdu poets from Delhi would take the name Dehlavi); this pronunciation, I can report, is still the standard one in use by West Punjabis. The new one in Indian languages is more like 'Dilli' (or Dylli). As an aside, Shilpi, the Bengalis really don't have much of a case against the British for being unable to pronounce 'Basu' (or 'Chattopadhyay'), considering that most Bengalis still refer to Sikhs as "Shiks". Sorry, this is probably more appropriate for an Indology list, though the languages are all certainly Indo-European. :) cheers, Rohan. From connolly at memphis.edu Mon Jan 15 22:59:27 2001 From: connolly at memphis.edu (Leo A. Connolly) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:59:27 +0000 Subject: la leche (was: Re: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro..).. Message-ID: > Leo Connolly wrote: > >The larger question is why we have _leche_ (as well as It. _latte_, Fr. > >_lait_ when there was no **_lactem_ so long as the word was neuter. But if > >_lactem_ developed, then gender reassignment would be a must, and formally > >there would have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. Why > >shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, it's > >the masculine forms that need explaining. > Diogo Almeida wrote: > I'm no specialist and I don't know what was the vulgar latin or the early > romance word for milk on the Peninsula at that time, but my latin dictionary > gives "lacte, is" for milk (and "lac" as an archaic form). I think that > "lactem" then, would have been the accusative form (I have to rely on my > memory, though, since I don't have any Latin grammar with me :) ). > Portuguese, as a general rule, got the accusative form of latin words. So > "lactem" being the accusative, it seems likely that the word in Portuguese > developed from that form (I don't have an etymological dictionary with me, > though). And since neuter was absorbed by the masculine gender in general > (at least in Portuguese, I don't know about Spanish), i don't see any > problems with "leite" being masculine. On the other hand, "leche" as > feminine is strange to me, especially because Portuguese and Spanish > normally agree when it comes to the gender of the words. I'm no specialist either (Germanic philology is my thing, at least officially). But my Latin dictionary (an old Cassell's from the 1930s) lists only _lac_, not _lacte_. Still, it is conceivable that _lacte_ arose in Vulgar Latin, and it would be a perfectly good ancestor of _leche_ et al. Connolly again: >"formally there would have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. > >Why shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, > >it's the masculine forms that need explaining." Diogo again: > If the gender systems of Portuguese and Spanish were mainly semantically > driven, maybe. But they aren't. There is a strong formal element in gender > assingment in these languages. And as I said before, I think that neuter > words become masculine in Portuguese most of the time (and I guess this is > also true for Spanish). Well, yes -- the point is that in the Latin third declension, masculine and feminine forms are normally indistinguishable, so that the word for 'forehead' is _frons, frontis_ (feminine) and for 'mountain' _mons, montis_ (masculine). The reason why Latin neuters usually become masculine in Romance is that most belong to the second declension, otherwise the home of many masculine nouns and only a few feminines, from which they differed only in the nominative singular and nominative accusative plural. There were no first-declension neuters, so they had no particular to turn feminine along with most of the rest of that declension. Some third-declension neuters ended up *looking* masculine: _corpus_ 'body' looked suspiciously like a second-declension masculine nominative, so it is no surprise to find Spanish _cuerpo_ masculine rather than feminine. But there were no third-declension neuters that *looked* feminine. Still, I had no trouble finding one that is now feminine in Spanish: _u:ber_ (gen. _u:beris_) 'udder, teat, breat' has yielded _la ubre_ 'udder'. Are we surprised? We shouldn't be, just as we are not surprised that the formally ambiguous Latin _penis_ is masculine rather than feminine. This from a non-specialist. What do the experts say? Leo begin:vcard n:Connolly;Leo A. tel;fax:901-678-5338 tel;work:901-362-9178 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:connolly at memphis.edu x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Leo A. Connolly end:vcard From edsel at glo.be Tue Jan 16 12:23:06 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:23:06 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G Kilday" Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 12:19 PM [snip] > 3 of the 4 possible variations of /a:e/ > correspondence are found in presumed substratal words: > Lat. cerrus, It. cerro, Sp. carrasco 'holm-oak' > Lat. larix, It. larice, Sp. alerce 'larch' > Lat. betula, It. betulla, Sp. abedul 'birch' > It. cheppia, Sp. sa'balo, saboga, saboca 'shad' > These are practically the only examples I have, so I don't know whether the > vowel-alternation and prosthetic /a/ are strictly determined by phonetic > environment. [snip] > DGK [Ed] In the case of Castilian you have to take into account the Arab influence: sometimes words of Romance origin were adopted by the Spanish-Arab population and then got back into Castilian in their arabicized form, often with the definite article al- (and its alternate forms, depending on the assimilation of the initial "sun" consonant of the following word) attached to it. is such a case: actually , possibly via some Arabic form **al-lars vel sim.. is possibly a simplification of *al-bedul (no assimilation: b is a "moon" letter). I don't think these a's are prosthetic/epenthetic like the e of . Note also that Arabic has not really a vowel /e/, except in some regional speech, nor /o/. In the transition to Spanish, the Arabic vowels often undergo surprising changes, or are added. Examples: from Lat. castra, via al-kasr. Cast. Alicante from Lat. Lucentum, via al-(lu)kant, but in Catalan: Alacant; it is pretty strange that Lat. c suvived as /k/, since the Arabs came there (713 A.D.) after the palatalization of Lat. c (unless some regional peculiarity intervened, like an early dialectal /e/ > /a/, or maybe the Iberian name that served as a substrate to Latin had an /a/ - I really don't know). has all the characteristics of a somewhat complicated origin: it is almost certainly a compound, with the suffix -(V)sco, which can be IE but just as well Iberian or Basque, even though that wouldn't affect its meaning. I would guess that the Latin form is derived from a substrate word with /a/. The Spanish word cannot possibly be derived directly from the late-Latin form, because the Latin c would have become /T/ (English th), not /k/ [In Sp. cerro means 'small mountain, hill']. On the other hand, no such objection exists for It. cerro. Could and Lat. cerrus /kerrus/ be related to a pre-IE root and/or Celtic, for a certain type of mountain landscape? In such case, the suffix -sko would make a lot of sense. Just a thought. Ed. Selleslagh From miskec4096 at hotmail.com Tue Jan 16 21:25:15 2001 From: miskec4096 at hotmail.com (Kreso Megyeral) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 22:25:15 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: >I'm no specialist and I don't know what was the vulgar latin or the early >romance word for milk on the Peninsula at that time, but my latin dictionary >gives "lacte, is" for milk (and "lac" as an archaic form). I think that >"lactem" then, would have been the accusative form (I have to rely on my >memory, though, since I don't have any Latin grammar with me :) ). It can't, since all the nouns ending on -e are still neuter in Latin. From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Tue Jan 16 21:54:49 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:54:49 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [snip] >>[RMCC] >> [snip] re: Spanish sabueso "bloodhound" [snip] >I would guess directly from substrate. Otherwise the /a/ of the first >syllable is also hard to derive from Latin /e/. The first "u" of segusius is >presumed long on the basis of "grecizzato" egousia, which I neglected to >mention in my posting. 3 of the 4 possible variations of /a:e/ >correspondence are found in presumed substratal words: > Lat. cerrus, It. cerro, Sp. carrasco 'holm-oak' > Lat. larix, It. larice, Sp. alerce 'larch' > Lat. betula, It. betulla, Sp. abedul 'birch' > It. cheppia, Sp. sa'balo, saboga, saboca 'shad' carrasco is a real can of worms It resembles Latin quercus "oak" and various *garr-, *karr- words for "hard" enough to fire people up but the clues are complicated. also Spanish la/rice for "larch" I'm guessing that both alerce and abedul are via Mozarabic Here's what I've found on "larch" l?rice, alerce "larch" < Latin larix, larice (f., m.) "m?l?ze", "resin de m?l?ze" [Ernout & Meillet 1939: 524; Migliorini 1966: 60] < Latin larix, laricem (acc.) "larch" [Partridge 1958: 337] < ? Alpine language, Celtic? [Ernout & Meillet 1939: 524] < larik- [Partridge 1958: 337] < Celtic, Alpine language [Partridge 1958: 337] see German L?rche, MHG lerche < Latin [Partridge 1958: 337] I'd expect something like *bedoja or *bedolla as cognate to Italian betulla or maybe *bedola from Latin *betula (with short /i/) Here's what Corominas has to say re: Spanish sa/balo sa/balo "shad" c. 1330 [Corominas 1980] savalus 961 [Corominas 1980] see Portuguese s?vel 1223; Catalan & Aragonese savoga 1335, saboca [Corominas 1980] < ? Celtic samos "summer" [Corominas 1980] < *sabolos [Corominas 1980] < *sabauca [Corominas 1980] < samauca; -m- > -b- typical of Celtic [Corominas 1980] < ? Great Britain [Corominas 1980] Italian cheppia definitely looks out of place in regard to Corominas's entry If they came into Spanish via Mozarabic, the vowels may have been affected by the Arabic vowel system. But someone more versed in Mozarabic would have to confirm [or deny] that. [snip] >> So Alessio proposed the Lusitanians = "IE Ligurians" = Illyrians >>hypothesis? By "IE Ligurians", I mean the non-Celtic, non-Italic IE >>speakers of N Italy & S France >> I've also seen claims that the Sikani themselves were Ligurians >>based on toponymic similarities between names in Sicily and Liguria The IE vs. non-IE "Ligurians" are a headache. I liked Corominas's use of Sorotaptic but does anyone else use it? [snip] I think Pallottini equated non-Celtic, non-Italic IE-speakers with "Ligurians" back in the 30s or 40s >In my own humble view, the Siculi probably represent the first wave of >IE-speakers into Italy, responsible for forms in which PIE medial *dh has >become /t/ (Aitne/Aetna, Rutuli, Liternum/Leuternon, and probably the source >of Etr. lautni 'freedman'). Thucydides (VI.2.4) says there were still some >Siculi in Italy in his time. The Sicani claimed to be Iberians, but if this >term is understood geographically, they might be identifiable with the >non-Celtic, non-Italic IE-speakers of Liguria, and their later migration to >Sicily might explain the similarity of toponyms. [snip] >DGK Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From miskec4096 at hotmail.com Wed Jan 17 23:10:10 2001 From: miskec4096 at hotmail.com (Kreso Megyeral) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:10:10 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: Rick McAllister wrote: >How common is this phenomenon in other Romance >languages and other other languages with grammatical gender? Interesting thing with disappearing of Latin neuter nouns happens in Romanian. Romanian actually has neuter gender, but in singular forms it's equal to masculine, while in plural to feminine. Even the definite article, which is postpositive in Romanian, doesn't have its own form, but follows the same pattern. In one Spanish grammar written in Croatian I found that there are still some words in Spanish considered neuter (of course, not "leche") that express collectives or some young animals. The article quoted is LO. Is it indeed, or is it some interpretation of the author? From acnasvers at hotmail.com Sun Jan 21 03:54:24 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:54:24 -0000 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: Leo A. Connolly (10 Jan 2001) wrote: >The larger question is why we have _leche_ (as well as It. _latte_, Fr. _lait_ >when there was no **_lactem_ so long as the word was neuter. But if _lactem_ >developed, then gender reassignment would be a must, and formally there would >have been no reason to choose masculine over feminine. Why shouldn't a >product of the female breast become feminine? If anything, it's the masculine >forms that need explaining. Some brief comments: First, *lactem is not required to explain the /t/ in the Romance forms. Varro used the neuter : lactuca [dicitur] a lacte, quod holus id habet lact (L.L. V.21.3). Caesar reputedly scoffed at on the grounds that no Latin word could end in two stops, but it is reasonable that was the form in common use while belonged strictly to the urban dialect of Rome. Second, if the word for 'milk' had been de-neutered to *lactis, it would have had the same form as the established word for 'intestine': ita cibi vacivitate venio lassis lactibus (Plaut. Curc. 319); fundolum a fundo, quod non ut reliquae lactes, sed ex una parte sola apertum (Varr. L.L. V.22.7). Third, terms denoting products, attributes, or appendages of a particular "natural" gender which carry a different "grammatical" gender are too numerous to list here (and some are inappropriate for general audiences). DGK From anthony.appleyard at UMIST.AC.UK Fri Jan 19 08:41:41 2001 From: anthony.appleyard at UMIST.AC.UK (anthony.appleyard@umist.ac.uk) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:41:41 -0500 Subject: Pre-PIE as a PIE substrate? Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 18:44:37 +0200, Ante Aikio wrote: > However, there are lexical correspondences between western Uralic and > Germanic which have no further etymologies in either language family, e.g. > Germ. *saiwa- ~ Samic *saajv? 'fresh water', > Finnic *kauka- 'long' ~ Germ. *hauha- 'high', > Germ. *ailda- 'fire' ~ Samic *aalt?-nk?-ss? 'lightning'. > But all of these can be explained as borrowings in one direction or the > other, so there is no special reason to asssume separate borrowing from > some substrate language in these cases. Please where can I find a complete list of these words which are found in both Germanic and western Uralic? Someone said in gothic-l at egroups.com that archaeologies ancestral to the modern South Saami (= Lappish) culture have been found in all of Scandinavia dand as far south as Hamburg in Germany. If so, then perhaps in South Saamic we have a living descendant of one of the many aboriginal substratum languages that incoming Indo-European overrode so long ago, and the above words and their like are pre-IE substratum words. If Finno-Ugrian languages were once spoken in all Scandinavia and Denmark and a long way into Schleswig-Holstein, then their speakers in those southern areas would have changed from tundra hunters to a denser population and more settled mode of life as the climate got warmer as the Ice Age ended and then farming and livestock herding came in. That increases the chance that Germanic started as Indo-European spoken with a "south coast of the Baltic" type Finno-Ugrian accent. That might also explain peculiar Germanic features such as weak-type adjectives declining different from 1st and 2nd declension nouns. Perhaps also, Balto-Slavonic (Lithuanian etc) started as IE spoken with a "south-east coast of the Baltic" Finno-Ugrian accent; Estonian and Livonian would be the nearest living relatives of that area's pre-IE substratum. From mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk Tue Jan 23 08:37:37 2001 From: mclssaa2 at fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk (Anthony Appleyard) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:37:37 GMT Subject: words specific to Saamic / Finnish and Germanic Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Rick Mc Callister wrote: > Does any of this substrate overlap with the so-called "Baltic" > substrate in Germanic; i.e. words of non-IE, non-Uralic origin such as > ship, sea, seal (animal), etc.? English "ship", Germanic "skip-", seems to have a relative in Greek: {skaphos}. Also, Greek {skapto:} = "I dig"; the connection is likely via dugout canoes (made by hollowing out a big single log). Ante Aikio wrote on Mon 6 Nov 2000 at 18:44:37 +0200 (Subject: Re: Pre-PIE as a PIE substrate?):- > However, there are lexical correspondences between western Uralic and > Germanic which have no further etymologies in either language family, e.g. > Germ. *saiwa- ~ Samic *saajv? 'fresh water', > Finnic *kauka- 'long' ~ Germ. *hauha- 'high', > Germ. *ailda- 'fire' ~ Samic *aalt?-nk?-ss? 'lightning'. ... Please where can I get a complete list of these "Germanic and Finno-Ugrian only" words? Someone on Gothic-L says that archaeology which is a lineal ancestor of modern Saamic (= Lappish) has been found as far south as Hamburg in Germany. If this means that an ancestor of Saamic was once spoken in all Scandinavia and Denmark and well into Schleswig-Holstein, then Germanic could have started as IE spoken with a Saami accent even if it developed south of the Baltic Sea. From acnasvers at hotmail.com Tue Jan 23 20:04:06 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:04:06 -0000 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. Message-ID: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (10 Jan 2001) wrote: >[DGK] > >I would add the tail-end of "five"; Goth. suggests Early PIE *pempwe. >[MCV] >It would be a candidate, were it not that I rather like the idea of >*pen-kwe "...and five" (an etymology similar to that of "ampersand"). [DGK] If the second syllable is indeed the enclitic 'and', the first syllable is more likely in my opinion to be 'one', with a "full hand" of four (*oktom?) understood. I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't *perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have *firf-trees. Is there any objection to *-kwe coming from *-pwe? Does this enclitic appear in Hittite? From jer at cphling.dk Thu Jan 25 15:38:16 2001 From: jer at cphling.dk (Jens Elmegaard Rasmussen) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:38:16 +0100 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Douglas G Kilday wrote: > I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic > forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the > Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't > *perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have > *firf-trees. > Is there any objection to *-kwe coming from *-pwe? Does this enclitic appear > in Hittite? Hitt. has (at least) kuis-ki 'every' = Lat. quis-que, cf. Luvian kuis-ha (-ha 'and'; also Lycian tise : se 'and'). Whatever the full history, the protoform must have contained a velar element in the enclitic part. The story of Germanic *fimf is different from *pen{kw}e > Italo-Celtic *{kw}en{kw}e and *pe{kw}- > *{kw}e{kw}-. The Germanic event is restricted to the one word 'five' which of course follows 'four' in counting, this giving the array *xw-{th}w--f-xw in which the xw's changed to f, no doubt by assimilation, given the nature of [f] as something very close to a "rounded thorn". Jens From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 25 16:11:07 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:11:07 -0600 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. Message-ID: > I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic > forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the > Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't > *perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have > *firf-trees. What about Greek /pente/ and Sanskrit /panca/, which do indeed seem to contain the respective reflexes of PIE /que/ (more or less) meaning 'and'? As for the non-existence of "firf" trees, all I can suggest is that numbers are sometimes subject to processes (mostly analogical) that do not affect ordinary words. In this case, the "sing-song" rhythm of counting may have encouraged something not unlike reduplication (or internal alliteration). (/ini, mini, maini, mo/). Dr. David L. White From mcv at wxs.nl Thu Jan 25 17:42:52 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:42:52 +0100 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:04:06 -0000, "Douglas G Kilday" wrote: >I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic >forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the >Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't >*perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have >*firf-trees. >Is there any objection to *-kwe coming from *-pwe? Does this enclitic appear >in Hittite? If we assume, as is reasonable, that it's the same suffix: Hitt. kuiski "whosoever", Goth. hwaz-uh/hwo:-h/hwa-h, Lat. quisque. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 25 18:23:02 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:23:02 +0100 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G Kilday" Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 9:04 PM > Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (10 Jan 2001) wrote: >> [DGK] >>> I would add the tail-end of "five"; Goth. suggests Early PIE >>> *pempwe. >> [MCV] >> It would be a candidate, were it not that I rather like the idea of *pen-kwe >> "...and five" (an etymology similar to that of "ampersand"). > [DGK] > If the second syllable is indeed the enclitic 'and', the first syllable is > more likely in my opinion to be 'one', with a "full hand" of four (*oktom?) > understood. [Ed] Why not 'and [a] thumb'? > I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic > forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the > Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't > *perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have > *firf-trees. [Ed] In P-Italic you have p_p_('pompe'). On the other hand, not all Germanic has f_f_: Swedish 'femt', mirroring Greek 'pente' (NGr. 'pende'), where t < *kw. As a non-specialist, I'm really confused. Help! Ed Selleslagh From cjustus at mail.utexas.edu Sat Jan 27 13:54:31 2001 From: cjustus at mail.utexas.edu (Carol F. Justus) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 07:54:31 -0600 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ moderator snip ] >Is there any objection to *-kwe coming from *-pwe? Does this enclitic appear >in Hittite? *-kwe appears in Hittite as the suffix -ku ... -ku 'whether ... or'. Carol Justus From hwhatting at hotmail.com Tue Jan 30 12:03:16 2001 From: hwhatting at hotmail.com (Hans-Werner Hatting) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:03:16 +0100 Subject: *gwh in Gmc. Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 20:04:06 -0000 Douglas G Kilday wrote: >I still think *pempwe is a better fit for Early PIE. Otherwise the Germanic >forms require an ad-hoc assimilation of *p__kw__ to *p__p__ mirroring the >Italo-Celtic assimilation to *kw__kw__. But if this happened, why wasn't >*perkw- affected (Lat. quercus, OE fyrh, OHG forha)? We don't have >*firf-trees. >From the reflexes in IE languages I can remember offhand, Indo-Iranian, Greek, q-Italic, and q-Celtic require a PIE */kw/. Of course, one can operate with different stages of PIE to account for irregularities, to unite forms which seem to belong together, or to establish links to other language families. But in the case of "5", we do not really need a Pre-PIE */pw/. To me, the assimilation theory looks satisfyingly convincing, and we have the correspondent assimilation (only the other way round) in Latin and q-Celtic. And assimilations are often singular items, not being consequently applied to all the material in a language. Anyway, the proposed sound change **/pw/ > */kw/ looks unusual to me. We have a lot of /kw/ > /p/ in IE languages, but does anybody know of instances (except assimilation) for the change proposed by Douglas Kilday? A further argument for an old /kw/ is the nasal. By PIE phonological rules, we would expect /m/ before /p/. But the Gmc. languages have mostly the reflexes of /n/, which is possible before labiovelars like /kw/ (probably being realised as (ng)), but not before true labials. Later occurences of /m/ in Gmc. languages can be easily explained as assimilations. DGK: >Is there any objection to *-kwe coming from *-pwe? If You don4t accept Gmc. /f/ out of */kw/, but retract all instances of it to a */pw/, You cannot link the second element of "5" with the eclitic PIE *-kwe, as it is conserved in Gmc. as Gothic _-uh_, so it should contain PIE /kw/ even in Your model. For my part, I think it4s simpler to assume that the reflexes of PIE /kw/ occasionally merged with those of /p/ in some stage of Proto-Gmc. under the influence of labial consonants in the same word. Best regards, Hans-Werner Hatting From dlwhite at texas.net Thu Jan 25 17:34:55 2001 From: dlwhite at texas.net (David L. White) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:34:55 -0600 Subject: Etruscans Message-ID: The argument that the Lemnians were from Etruria is convincing only if we disregard one principle and three facts. The principle is that shared archaisms are not indicative of close connection. To make it clear why this is so, let us imagine that we have three groups, A-B-C, arrayed in approximately that geographic order. If group B then innovates away from groups A and C, leaving these with (relatively) archaic features in common, then failure to recognize the validity of the principle just given will result in the belief that A and C share some close connection, when they do not. I cannot resist (re-)noting that the principle applies to living things as much as to languages (and alphabets). For example, recent opinion inclines toward the view that the stripes of zebras are an archaism, that at some point in the past all equids had stripes. If this is so, then zebras (there are at least three species) do not form a sub-group within equids, and are not to be connected with each other. The principle is therefore valid in a manner that might be called "modality independent". The three facts are that 1) the use of a zig-zag sibilant, 2) the use of "H" as a fricative, and 3) the use of vau (or anything) for /w/ are all archaisms. (The use of a psi-shaped sign for "chi" may well be too, I don't know.) The use of a zig-zag sign for a sibilant (apparently /ts/) appears also in Mantinean, where to my knowledge nobody connects it with influence from Italy, or even Euboea. It is simply an archaism, due largely to Mantinea's somewhat isolated position in the interior of the Peloponessus. The innovations noted were all characteristic of what might be called Aegean Greek, and there is no reason to think that they should have made it across the language boundary into Lemnian, anymore than that they should have made it into Italian Greek or Mantinean. They are also too late to have much to do with a posited migration from the Aegean (or its eastern coast) to Italy. The Phrygians and the Trojans (or their displaced descendants) belong to significantly different periods of NW Anatolian history, and there is little reason to think that their alphabets would have showed any especially close relation. In any event, as MCV notes, the attempt to argue that because the alphabet is Euboean it must be Italian is more than a little strained to begin with. Furthermore, the view presented totally ignores the presence of the Turshas, who seem to bear the same name as the Tursenoi, raiding in the Nile Delta (and perhaps under the name Philistines similarly distresing the Hebrews) during the Aegean Dark Ages, roughly 1200-800. I have not exactly memorized Egyptian historical records, but I think they rule out the possibility that the Turshas were the descendants of Italian colonizers of Lemnos about 600, and it is scarcely likely that true Tuscans were raiding the Eastern Mediterranean at any period. Under the view presented, the time and place of the Turshas do not match up, for if one is right the other is wrong, so that we are left with little alternative but to deny that there is any connection between the names. The seemingly Italian features in Lemnian could be due, as MCV suggests, to independent influences. The change of /pt/ to /ft/ is fairly natural (is is known from Icelandic) and could have occurred in virtually any IE language. Likewise feminine /i/ is known from both Greek and Sanskrit, and so is hardly a reliable indicator of Italian provenance. Nonetheless, I would guess that in this case the things noted are borrowing from Italian Etruscan into Lemnian, due to continuned contact between colonies and "mother-city" of a sort well-attested from this period. The Greek colonies generally made a point of keeping in contact with their mother cities, and so did Carthage. There is no reason to think that Lemnian (or "Turshan") colonies in Italy would not have done the same. In other words, just as with modern British and American English, it is not necessarily the case that true separation has occurred, and borrowings might well have jumped the gap. It is a little odd that a word for grandson/nephew should be one of them, since this would appear to be a semi-basic kinship term, but there is no denying that English borrowed its version of the word in question from French, so however strange it may seem, such borowing has been known to happen. And a change of /ft/ to /fot/ (if /f/ is what "ph" means) would not be that strange: for vowels to be inserted into sequences regarded as difficult, taking on the color (in this case labial) of an adjacent consonant is fairly normal. But I return to the names. If the original name was /trosha/ or /trusha/ (in a language that did not distinguish /u/ and /o/ there is no meaningful distinction), then we might expect some difference of opinion about 1) what to do with the /r/ in languages that did not permit /tr/, 2) whether to borrow with /o/ or /u/, and 2) how to render /sh/ in languages that did not have /sh/. Among the options for the first might be 1) to metathsize (Tursha, Tursenoi (from Egyptian?)), to delete (Tuscan), or to prefix (Etruscan, Etruria). Among the options for the last might be 1) /sk/ (Etruscan, Tuscan), 2 /si/ (Etruria, Troia (with later loss of /s/), and 3) /s/ (Tursenoi). All these are variants of the same name. To split off "Tursha" and "Troia" from the rest is unwarranted. They fit in as well as any of the others, which are universally acknowledged to represent variants of the same name. Nor is it necessarily naive to imagine that the legends in question, like Icelandic sagas, medieval Saints' Lives, or for that matter the Homeric epics, might well have a considerable element of truth in them, without being wholly true. It would be nice to imagine that such works could either be regarded as wholly reliable or wholly unreliable, nice but also simplistic. The legends are evidence, just of an annoyingly equivocal sort. It should be noted as well that much of Herodotus is technically in indirect discourse. No particular disbelief is necessarily implied by any given instance. Dr. David L. White From mcv at wxs.nl Fri Jan 26 15:07:33 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 16:07:33 +0100 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:30:05 +0100, Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote: >I'm personally convinced that the name of the deceased is "S'ivai", as >the central message of the stele seems to be (repeated twice: in the >front center, and on the side): S'ivai evistho S'eronaith sialchveis' >avis' maras'm av[is' ais'] / S'ivai avis' sialchvis' maras'm avis' >aomai [approxiamtely: "Sivai, "evistho" in Seruna, of years 60[?] >and[?] 5[?] years died[?]"]. One further thought: if we link the words and on the stele to Etruscan "referee, judge", a plausible hypothesis would be that the deceased's function (performed "for Holaie the Phokaian", whose "naphoth" he was, in a place called "Serona") would have something to do with the administration of justice (despite the spear and shield(?) with which he is depicted). Now <(h)isto:r> (*wid-tor-) is (Homeric) Greek for "judge", but I wonder if there is an attestation in Ancient Greek of a magistrature *, as this would fit very well with Lemnian (the -r may have been weak in the Greek source dialect, or dispensed with in Lemnian if the plural suffix in that language was -r, as it is in Etruscan). ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From acnasvers at hotmail.com Sun Jan 28 04:47:56 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 04:47:56 -0000 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Steve Gustafson (15 Jan 2001) wrote: >But my understanding is that the business of the reconstruction of the IE >noun case system reveals a number of both stillborn and fossil cases that, >had they been generalised, would have added to the number of cases >recoverable. Moreover, my recollection is that the existence of languages >with otherwise conservative morphology, like Greek, Gothic, and Hittite, >that never seem to have had the full complement of Sanskrit cases, and the >strongly different system that prevails in the Tocharian languages, has led >some to suggest that the PIE cases may have been added to, rather than >subtracted from. Yes, Tocharian shows that (Early) PIE must have had a rich variety of morphemes capable of forming case-suffixes and verbal endings. >The Sanskrit, Celtic, and Latin cases that are formed in the plural on *-bh- >seem to be elaborations on a common suffix, at least somewhat comparable to >the Etruscan cases. Germanic and Slavic apparently used a different suffix, >*-m-, and Slavic may have worked it the same way. This suggests to me, that >the PIE cases may once have had agglutinative features, and that we can still >see part of the process by which they were built up. This is certainly reasonable; some of the suffixes look like composites. The real puzzle is why PIE (or its descendents) should have abandoned agglutinative morphology in favor of a mixed bag of suffixes, apparently discarding perfectly good composites. Do any Uralists have examples of agglutinative languages moving toward "fusional" case-morphology? Or perhaps PIE was never fully agglutinative, the process of establishing composite suffixes as case-markers being interrupted before completion? >Moreover, the *bh- suffix has been fossilized in Greek words like -thyrephi-, >"outside." This was once a productive instrumental style case in Greek, as >revealed in Mycenean ko-ru-pi, "with helmets," and po-ni-ki-pi, "using purple >dye." This suffix was still productive in Epic Greek; e.g. 'with horses and chariots' (Hom. Od. IV.533). >I may be a certifiable kook [and I cheerfully confess, no more than an >interested amateur], but it seems that the Etruscan noun morphology --- though >it has obviously been substantially reshaped --- does not rule out that there >may be a common ancestor between PIE and Etruscan. I would not speculate that >Etruscan is a direct descendant of PIE. Etruscan strikes me as interesting, >in that it seems a logical place to -test- theories about super-families. What I mean by "certifiable kooks" are those who derive Etruscan from Hebrew, Serbian, Ukrainian, Turkish, etc. on the basis of arbitrary and capricious impressionism. Serious comparative work requires systematic tables of sound-correspondences. Kooks have no comprehension of seriousness and their theories turn sound-change into a haphazard chaos which, as we know from IE studies, does not reflect reality. Wherever the Etruscans may have been between (say) 2500 BCE and 700, when their inscriptions started, it is likely that they were never very far from communities of IE-speakers. Etruscan words that look like IE may have been borrowed from IE. This is why I say that a "deeper knowledge" of the Etruscan vocabulary is required. In order to set up sound-tables between PIE and Proto-Tyrrhenian, we need a set of words which we reasonably believe to be "native" Etruscan, so that we are not just comparing PIE sounds with their own reflexes in borrowed form. I think that not only Etruscan but also pre-IE substrates must be taken into account when attempting to construct super-families which include IE. Neglecting these lesser-known languages amounts to (pardon the expression) not playing with a full deck. DGK From acnasvers at hotmail.com Tue Jan 30 20:55:32 2001 From: acnasvers at hotmail.com (Douglas G Kilday) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 20:55:32 -0000 Subject: Etruscans (was: minimal pairs) Message-ID: Miguel Carrasquer Vidal (16 Jan 2001) wrote: [snip of DGK's material on Lemnian alphabet] >But Lemnos is only 50km or so off the Chalcidian coast. It is >definitely not an Ionian, Aeolic or Cycladic island. In fact, the >surprising thing would be if the alphabet did *not* belong to the >Euboico-Chalcidian family. Lemnos is about the same distance from the Troad, so the Phrygian alphabet would not be surprising here. In fact, if the Lemno-Tyrrhenians were the relic of a great migration from Anatolia (which I have been arguing against) it would be surprising if they had severed all ties with their homeland and gone in the other direction to get an alphabet. I now think the Lemno-Tyrrhenians were probably the offshoot of a Tyrrhenian community living in Acte, the easternmost peninsula of Chalcidice, along with other non-Hellenes (Thuc. IV.109). Despite de Simone's doubts, I find it most plausible that they acquired the alphabet in Chalcidice (or perhaps Euboea), not in Italy. To my knowledge, no Etruscan inscriptions found in Italy use the peculiar conventions of the Lemnian alphabet (O instead of U, L with upper stroke, treatment of sibilants). >Larissa Bonfante says the word [nefts] was borrowed in Etruscan from Latin, >and in fact it might have been borrowed from any Indo-European >language having a reflex of *nepot-, including Greek (Homeric >) or even Carian ( or "child", if I can >trust Woudhuizen's sources [Meriggi]). So this word is rather >inconclusive, except that it's obviously easier to go from >to than the other way around. Good point. I can't prove that was picked up in Italy. Given the proximity of other IE languages from which it might have been borrowed, I must admit its presence on the stele is inconclusive. >> The stele also contains , evidently the name of >> the honored/deceased in regular Etruscan form: Aker = praenomen, Tavars'io >> = gentilicium, Vanalasial = metronymic. >The two lines are usually read: "vanalasial s'eronai morinail / aker >tavars'io" (I'm sure there's a reason for reading "vanalasial", but on >every copy I've seen, what I read is: "va.m.ala.sial: >s'eronaimorinail"). There is no compelling reason not to accept your >alternative reading "Aker Tavars'io / Vanalasial S'eronai Morinail", >but if the first 3 words are the name of the deceased, what is the >meaning of , apparently the genitive of "in Seruna, >in Murina"? My reading of these two lines follows Ribezzo and Buffa. The reverse order is the "lectio difficilior". Looking at the crude copy in my possession, I see that is compressed with respect to in order to fit between the latter and the horizontal . It is clear that was written before the vertical inscriptions, and that the writer considered top-to-bottom (from his viewpoint) the normal order for lines of text. (The vertical inscriptions, both etc. and etc., show that the writer regarded right-to-left as the default direction, so cannot start the horizontal inscription and must end it.) Had been written first, it is unlikely that the writer would have stopped with and taken the chance on running out of room with in a closed space. On my crude copy, the third letter of exhibits a slight extension which might, but probably shouldn't, be interpreted as an additional stroke making it into M. Most authors who have seen the stele concur on reading N (for me, of course, "autopsia" is out of the question). As for the apparent interpuncts within words Pauli, in the first edition of the inscription (1886), did not regard them as functional. Lejeune (1957) thought they represented the syllabic punctuation characteristic of South Etrurian and Campanian inscriptions in the VI cent. BCE and argued for an interdependence between Etrurian and Lemnian writing systems. However, the points visible on my copy, particularly within , do not agree well with true syllabic punctuation, in which the points usually follow the first letter of a word (especially a vowel), divide two consonants within a word, or follow the whole word. They are best attributed here to the porosity of the stone. I don't *know* the meaning of , but if etc. is read as a man's name in PN-GN-MN format, what follows probably indicates his locality. We agree that is probably a locative and probably refers to the Lemnian town of Murina. is plausibly a proximate use of the comitative (cf. Rec. Etr. murce Capue 'served near Capua'). might stand for the genitive *morinaial. The meaning could be something like 'near S'eruna of Murina' = 'born near S'eruna which is in the district, or under the jurisdiction, of Murina'. >I'm personally convinced that the name of the deceased is "S'ivai", as >the central message of the stele seems to be (repeated twice: in the >front center, and on the side): S'ivai evistho S'eronaith sialchveis' >avis' maras'm av[is' ais'] / S'ivai avis' sialchvis' maras'm avis' >aomai [approxiamtely: "Sivai, "evistho" in Seruna, of years 60[?] >and[?] 5[?] years died[?]"]. I'm inclined to regard as cognate to Etr. , as several authors have suggested. has been controversial for over a century. Bugge, who considered Etruscan to be IE (closest to Armenian), rendered it 'lebend' on the basis of resemblance to , , etc. Cortsen scoffed at this and countered with 'tot'. Pallottino regarded as gen. pl. 'dei morti'. IMHO is most likely the gen. sg. of an abstract noun *ziva meaning 'sepulture, burial, funeral' or the like, or the honor of the funerary ritual. If so, Lemn. is probably an instrumental (or similar) use of the comitative meaning something like 'with interment', 'with a funeral', perhaps 'with honor'. >On the other hand, Lemnian shows little or no trace of the ubiquitous >Etruscan 3rd.p. preterit ending -ce (there is , but in view of >, one can doubt whether this is a verb or a >reference to Phocaea), and it is in fact impossible to recognize any >verbal form in Lemnian (maybe -io ?). Ubiquitous? Where do you find the suffix -ce on the Cippus Perusinus? (Okay, unfair question, the CP isn't a funerary monument.) I doubt that refers to Phocaea, as *Phokia would have constituted a single morpheme for the Lemnians. Had they borrowed the Greek word for 'seal', it is unlikely they would have used it in a solemn funerary inscription. I think is most likely a preterit, though I can't prove it. > The gap between and > has already been commented on. Neither nor occur in >this short fragment (and how would Lemnian have rendered ?), and >Etr. (no ) is Lemnian (no ) [this might merely be an >orthographic issue, in view of Morina=Murina]. The letter is found elsewhere on Lemnos, at Kabirion in the fragmentary inscription . If is indeed cognate with Etr. , it indicates that the convention at Kaminia was to hypodifferentiate the sibilants, using the zigzag which we choose to write for both phonemes written and in standard North Etr. orthography. Not having the sign 8 (transcribed ), the Lemnians might have used the digraphs FH or HF (transcribed , ) as in Etruscan of the VII cent. BCE, or they might have used phi (again hypodifferentiating, as later Greeks did with Latin ). The phoneme , however written, is not common in Archaic Etruscan and its absence from known Lemnian texts is not surprising. If /o/ and /u/ are not phonemically distinct, their representation is initially a matter of taste, subsequently one of custom. These are all orthographic issues. What they indicate is that the Lemno-Tyrrhenians acquired the alphabet independently of their relatives in Etruria. No sweeping conclusions about phonologic divergence should be attempted. > Lemnian in the >formula must surely be a numeral, but >fits none of the Etruscan ones (the only one that comes even remotely >close is "5", a little bit closer [but still remote] if we >consider the derivative "50", showing that the -ch was not >part of the root, but probably identical to -c(h) "and" [cf. PIE >*pen-kwe "... and 5"], so something like *mawa-k(h) "[... and ]5", >*mawa-alkh "50"). Surely a numeral? Surely non-numeric terms can stand next to words for 'year'! I'm personally skeptical about being derived from . Rix has suggested *machvalch <- *machv (the is superscript indicating labialization), but the process *uv <- *achv is otherwise unrecognized in Etruscan, hence completely "ad hoc". and are probably from distinct roots; likewise 'two' and 'twenty'. > In sum, I see little reason to think that Lemnian >differs only trivially from Etruscan, despite the fact that it is >clearly related to it. Whoa! I didn't intend by the term "dialect" to imply that the differences between Lemnian and mainland Archaic Etruscan should be dismissed as "trivial". The Lemnian stele fills in some of our knowledge of Archaic Etruscan, for example by providing the Archaic form of the decile suffix, which is unattested in Italy. From the comparative standpoint Lemnian is an *effective* dialect of Archaic Etruscan, whatever its *functional* status might have been in terms of mutual intelligibility with the Etrurians. My argument that the Lemno-Tyrrhenians came from Italy stands or falls with the interpretation of . If this is indeed a name in PN-GN-MN format, its only reasonable origin is west-central Italy. If these words mean something else, I would argue that the probable source of these Tyrrhenians was the upper Adriatic region. By far the most plausible hypothesis IMHO has the Etruscans entering Italy by the NE land-route. I repeat my contention that sea-migration from Anatolia has no solid evidence behind it. DGK From JoatSimeon at aol.com Thu Jan 25 20:00:59 2001 From: JoatSimeon at aol.com (JoatSimeon at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:00:59 EST Subject: Greek Gods Message-ID: In a message dated 1/25/01 1:54:41 AM Mountain Standard Time, dlwhite at texas.net writes: > more > Sorry. The statement I was thinking of referred only to the major > (12?) gods of the pantheon. > -- the JIES gave a PIE derivation for Hera some time ago, and for Hercules. Something to do with *iera, if my memory serves me correctly. From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Thu Jan 25 20:23:47 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:23:47 -0500 Subject: Pre-PIE as a PIE substrate? In-Reply-To: <200101251156.FAA04029@sunmuw1.MUW.Edu> Message-ID: I've come across references to (the animal) < OE seolh < Germanic *selhaz < ? Finnic (and I think maybe also , the Scottish sea critter) and < *airo < ? Finnic Maybe Ante can give us a Uralic opinion on these >Please where can I find a complete list of these words which are found in >both Germanic and western Uralic? [snip] Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From anaikio at mail.student.oulu.fi Fri Jan 26 08:08:52 2001 From: anaikio at mail.student.oulu.fi (Ante Aikio) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:08:52 +0200 Subject: Pre-PIE as a PIE substrate? In-Reply-To: <200101251216.OAA5082949@paju.oulu.fi> Message-ID: [I wrote] >>However, there are lexical correspondences between western Uralic and >>Germanic which have no further etymologies in either language family[.] [Anthony Appleyard] >Please where can I find a complete list of these words which are found in >both Germanic and western Uralic? Regrettably, nowhere. If you're interested in this, you must compile it yourself. You could e.g. start with going through the material in "Lexikon der ?lteren germanischen Lehnw?rter in den ostseefinnischen Sprachen" by A.D. Kylstra et al, 1991-. But this dictionary does not present the etymologies of the Germanic loan originals, so you would need to check them in other sources. Moreover, only the first two volumes have been published so far, so only Finnish words from A to O are included. The rest could be checked in e.g. the new etymological dictionary "Suomen sanojen alkuper?" ('The origin of Finnish words'); however, the dictionary is in Finnish, so you have to know some Finnish in order to effectively use it. However, SSA does not include all the Germanic loan words, as its attitude towards loan etymologies seems to be a bit overcritical in general. However, an excellent book on the research of Germanic loan words in Finnic is Jorma Koivulehto's book "Verba Mutuata" (M?moires de la Soci?t? Finno-Ougrienne #237) The book is in German and it contains 16 articles (some 450 pages in total) by him, dealing with IE-U contacts and focusing mostly on Finnic and Germanic. I can recommend this as the best introduction on the topic. >Someone said in gothic-l at egroups.com that archaeologies ancestral to the >modern South Saami (= Lappish) culture have been found in all of Scandinavia >dand as far south as Hamburg in Germany. If so, then perhaps in South Saamic >we have a living descendant of one of the many aboriginal substratum >languages that incoming Indo-European overrode so long ago, and the above >words and their like are pre-IE substratum words. If Finno-Ugrian languages >were once spoken in all Scandinavia and Denmark and a long way into >Schleswig-Holstein, then their speakers in those southern areas would have >changed from tundra hunters to a denser population and more settled mode of >life as the climate got warmer as the Ice Age ended and then farming and >livestock herding came in. Actually, the most coherent theory explains the Sami as Iron Age newcomers in the north and Scandinavia that spread from Southern / Mid-Finland and Carelia. This theory is supported by both archeological and linguistic evidence. And even though some scholars (notably Pekka Sammallahti) maintain that a Uralic language ancestral to Samic was spoken in Mid-Scandinavia, Northern Finland, and the Kola Peninsula already in the stone age, there is no evidence pointing to an earlier "Samic" inhabitation in Southern Scandinavia, let alone Denmark. But instead, there is overwhelming evidence (e.g. substrate toponyms borrowed into Finnic from Samic) for the view that the Samic "original home" stretched in the Bronze Age from inland Southern Finland to the east, at least to Lake Ladoga and Onega (the exact northern eastern borders have not been determined, as no one has done any systematic research on this; however, there seem to be several very Samic-looking toponyms even east of Onega). Moreover, the ideas you refer to above seem to be linguistically anachronistic in the sense that it does not make sense to speak of "Samic" (let alone "South Sami", which is one of the ten Sami languages which quite recently diverged from Proto-Samic) on these time levels (the end of the Ice Age). Actually, even Proto-Uralic must be dated later, and it is quite certain that by the end of the Ice Age there were no Uralians anywhere in the vicinity of the Baltic Sea. Some researchers (e.g. Dolukhanov, Wiik, Nu?ez) have proposed quite different scenarios, but these have been rejected by the majority of Uralists, as criticism has pointed out fatal flaws in the thoery. >That increases the chance that Germanic started >as Indo-European spoken with a "south coast of the Baltic" type Finno-Ugrian >accent. E.g. Kalevi Wiik has proposed several Uralic substrate features in Germanic, but his theory is very unconvincing; for criticism see e.g. Petri Kallio: "Uralic Substrate Features in Germanic?", Journal de la Soc?t? Finno-Ougrienne 87. >That might also explain peculiar Germanic features such as weak-type >adjectives declining different from 1st and 2nd declension nouns. Could you elaborate, as my knowledge of Proto-Germanic is quite superficial? >Perhaps also, Balto-Slavonic (Lithuanian etc) started as IE spoken with a >"south-east coast of the Baltic" Finno-Ugrian accent; Estonian and Livonian >would be the nearest living relatives of that area's pre-IE substratum. The case for a Uralic substrate in Proto-Slavic is much stronger, but the evidence cannot be (at least as yet) concidered compelling. Regards, Ante Aikio From hwhatting at hotmail.com Tue Jan 30 08:40:09 2001 From: hwhatting at hotmail.com (Hans-Werner Hatting) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:40:09 +0100 Subject: words specific to Saamic / Finnish and Germanic Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 08:37:37 GMT Anthony Appleyard wrote: >English "ship", Germanic "skip-", seems to have a relative in Greek: >{skaphos}. Also, Greek {skapto:} = "I dig"; the connection is likely via >dugout canoes (made by hollowing out a big single log). The Gmc. cognates of these Greek words come most likely from the family of Engl. _shave_, German _schaben_ (Gk. /ph/ < PIE /bh/,/gwh/). If Gmc. _skip_ had a cognate in Greek, it ought to be along the lines of *sk(e/o)ib- . As _skip_ is one of the candidates for a loan from a substrate in Gmc., which is made more likely by the fact that PIE /b/ was very rare, so any Gmc. word with /p/ is suspect of being a loan from another (IE or non-IE language). For an IE substrate, we could accept a connection to _skapto:_. As I see this problem, it would be good if we were able to reconstruct one substrate or at least a sufficiently small number of substrate layers, with clear rules for their phonological relationship with PIE (or some other European language family). Otherwise we risk inventing a substrate for every word in Gmc. which cannot be accounted by with the normal sound changes from PIE, but which has a PIE feel about it. In a variation of an old rule - substrata non sunt multiplicanda. Best regards, H. W. Hatting From hwhatting at hotmail.com Tue Jan 30 07:29:55 2001 From: hwhatting at hotmail.com (Hans-Werner Hatting) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:29:55 +0100 Subject: Goths Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:19:21 -0600, David White wrote: >Harking back to an earlier emissive, I would like to know more about >how the name of the Goths is supposed to have been from two different > >agentnouns, each from a different ablaut grade. > It would also be good to know how the /o/ got there in Latin. > >One possibility is that the name (as it reached Latin) is indeed an >"other-name" from other Germanic, in which case /o/ rather than /u/ in a >past-participle of /geutan/ (more or less) would in fact be regular. Or, >to put it perhaps more clearly, the from with /o/ would be the non-Gothic >Germanic, whereas the form with /u/ would be the Gothic version. That the >Greeks were in contact with the Goths whereas the Romans were in contact >with other Germanic tribes might explain this difference, which as far as I >can see has no other explanation. Just a suggestion: We could have an o-Stem *gauta- (with o-grade of the root, a type widely attested for PIE and Gmc.),denoting the tribe, and an idividualising derived n-stem *guton-, denoting the members of the tribe. I would not worry much about Latin /o/ for Gmc. /u/, as at that time short /u/ and /o/ probably already had merged in Vulgar Latin. Best regards, H. W. Hatting From evenstar at mail.utexas.edu Fri Jan 26 00:59:24 2001 From: evenstar at mail.utexas.edu (Shilpi Misty Bhadra) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:59:24 -0600 Subject: Calcutta/Kolkatta In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ moderator snip ] Dear Rohan, That was an excellent commentary on Kolkata. I have seen it written both Kolkatta and Kolkata (already), so that made it confusing. The fundamental problem is transcription of the language to Roman letters/sounds. Of course there are political issues. In Budapest, after the Hungarians got rid of communism and Soviet influence, they renamed every street that had a Russian name to a Hungarian one. I have been told by many a Hungarian that the older generation spoke and knew Russian, but most refuse to speak Russian now. They will speak in Hungarian or German. The Shik pronunciation is news to me. But then again, I don't know that many Bengalis and more of them say it than I know. No one (Brits, Bengalis, etc.)can pronounce every phoneme or sound in the world perfectly, and I fully understand that. That is why studying loanwords and how different cultures transliterate words is interesting. I hope I didn't offend anyone. I myself cannot do the -dn- cluster in Dnieper among many other sounds. I think that regardless of the name change, most people will pronounce or mispronounce the names. I think if people have been using a name for many years, most people will continue using that name out of habit, and the real generation that it will affect are those learning the language or word for the first time or early in their life (i.e. children). I apologize for my lack of knowledge. You handled the question much better. And you are right, it was better for the Indo-Iranian or Indology list. Shilpi Misty Bhadra University of Texas at Austin Ancient History, Classics, and Humanities (focus: Indo-European Studies) senior undergraduate evenstar at mail.utexas.edu 512-320-0229 (ph) 512-476-3367 (fax) From maxdashu at LanMinds.Com Thu Jan 25 21:21:37 2001 From: maxdashu at LanMinds.Com (Max Dashu) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:21:37 -0800 Subject: la leche In-Reply-To: <3A6380CE.39C23231@memphis.edu> Message-ID: >>> Why shouldn't a product of the female breast become feminine? >> If anything, it's the masculine forms that need explaining. What, then, are we to make of a feminine form for "penis" in Greek (i psoli)? Max Dashu From r.piva at swissonline.ch Thu Jan 25 22:45:32 2001 From: r.piva at swissonline.ch (Renato Piva) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 23:45:32 +0100 Subject: la leche (was: Re: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro..).. Message-ID: >> Leo Connolly wrote: > But my Latin dictionary (an old Cassell's from the 1930s) lists only _lac_, > not _lacte_. Still, it is conceivable that _lacte_ arose in Vulgar Latin, > and it would be a perfectly good ancestor of _leche_ et al. In Petron's Satyricon (1st AD), Trimalchio, the rich libertus from Asia Minor who, being a foreigner, speaks a vulgar variety of Latin (with many 'errors' as compared to classical Latin), says 'bonum lactem' (I can't tell where exactly, as I have no text at hand, but I'm sure it's there). R. Piva From g_sandi at hotmail.com Fri Jan 26 14:24:54 2001 From: g_sandi at hotmail.com (Gabor Sandi) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:24:54 -0000 Subject: la leche (was: Re: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro..).. Message-ID: >From: "Leo A. Connolly" >Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:59:27 +0000 [ moderator snip ] >I'm no specialist either (Germanic philology is my thing, at least >officially). But my Latin dictionary (an old Cassell's from the 1930s) lists >only _lac_, not _lacte_. Still, it is conceivable that _lacte_ arose in >Vulgar Latin, and it would be a perfectly good ancestor of _leche_ et al. Although I am no specialist either, I do have a life-long interest in Romance linguistics, so let me share my thoughts on this topic: 1. I think that the main reason for Latin neuter nouns turning into masculines in the Romance languages is that in the singular, neuter adjectives of the -o declension (by far the most common) were identical to their masculine counterparts in all cases except the nominative even in Classical Latin: Nom. bonus bonum Acc. bonum Gen. boni Dat. bono Abl. bono Once phonetic attrition (loss of final d) achieved the same for the definite article-to-be ille (ille/*illu *illu illi illo illo), the general impression must have been that masculine and neuter nouns mostly take the same qualifiers and are replaced by the same pronouns, therefore they must belong to the same category. The loss of final -s in the precursors of Italian and Romanian must have reinforced this trend in eastern dialects, since then the nominative also became identical: *bonu. 2. The word "lac" must have been felt to be an isolate in the language. Correct me if I am wrong, but no other noun with final -c survived into Vulgar Latin. It would have been natural for the nominative/accusative singular to be re-formed based on the genitive lactis, especially because of analogy with the similar-sounding nox/noctis, replaced in Vulgar Latin by *noctis/noctis. 3. To continue this trend of thought, the fact that lac became feminine leche in Spanish is not so much a matter of a neuter noun becoming feminine. Instead, we should see it as one of several examples of masculine nouns of the Latin third declension becoming feminine (and vice versa?). Leche, sal, sangre, flor are feminine in Spanish; fleur, dent and mer are feminine in French; ponte is feminine in Portuguese. With dictionaries and some time on my hands I am sure I could provide more examples. What I cannot provide is a reason: analogy, semantic associations, sub- or superstratum influence? Any thoughts by real experts? 4. On corpus and tempus, we should remember that the final -s in these two words was very resilient in those dialects of Vulgar Latin that kept word-final -s. Old Spanish still had cuerpos and tiempos in the singular for these words (masculine of course), although the language eventually left off the final s through analogy with all other nouns. And Old French had an -s in these words in both the cas sujet and cas rigime in the singular, still kept today in the orthography (corps, temps), and even in speech if we consider the nouns in expressions like "de temps en temps" as in the singular. Best wishes to all, Gabor From mcv at wxs.nl Thu Jan 25 17:50:10 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:50:10 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jan 2001 03:54:24 -0000, "Douglas G Kilday" wrote: >Some brief comments: First, *lactem is not required to explain the /t/ in >the Romance forms. But it is to explain the -e. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 25 18:29:23 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:29:23 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreso Megyeral" Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 10:25 PM >> I'm no specialist and I don't know what was the vulgar latin or the early >> romance word for milk on the Peninsula at that time, but my latin dictionary >> gives "lacte, is" for milk (and "lac" as an archaic form). I think that >> "lactem" then, would have been the accusative form (I have to rely on my >> memory, though, since I don't have any Latin grammar with me :) ). > It can't, since all the nouns ending on -e are still neuter in Latin. [Ed] I'd like to add that my (Dutch) Latin dictionary says 'lacte' is archaic, and 'lac' is the regular nominative in Classic Latin. Anyway, it is a neuter, so 'lactem' is impossible as you said, since all neuters have identical nominatives and accusatives. But, of course, an accusative 'lacte' is possible. It also says that it is derived from a root (g)lact-. Ed. Selleslagh From mcv at wxs.nl Thu Jan 25 17:45:35 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:45:35 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: <003901c07fb7$1bbeb680$4e05703e@edsel> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 13:23:06 +0100, "Eduard Selleslagh" wrote: > has all the characteristics of a somewhat complicated origin: it is >almost certainly a compound, with the suffix -(V)sco, which can be IE but just >as well Iberian or Basque, even though that wouldn't affect its meaning. I >would guess that the Latin form is derived from a substrate word with /a/. The >Spanish word cannot possibly be derived directly from the late-Latin form, >because the Latin c would have become /T/ (English th), not /k/ [In Sp. cerro >means 'small mountain, hill']. On the other hand, no such objection exists for >It. cerro. Could and Lat. cerrus /kerrus/ be related to a pre-IE >root and/or Celtic, for a certain type of mountain landscape? In such case, >the suffix -sko would make a lot of sense. Just a thought. Carrasca's grow on stony ground (the Dutch name is "steeneik"), so a connection with *KARR- "stone" is not unlikely. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From centrostudilaruna at libero.it Fri Jan 26 19:26:06 2001 From: centrostudilaruna at libero.it (Alberto Lombardo) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:26:06 +0100 Subject: R: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: ES wrote: " has all the characteristics of a somewhat complicated origin: it is almost certainly a compound, with the suffix -(V)sco, which can be IE but just as well Iberian or Basque, even though that wouldn't affect its meaning. I would guess that the Latin form is derived from a substrate word with /a/. The Spanish word cannot possibly be derived directly from the late-Latin form, because the Latin c would have become /T/ (English th), not /k/ [In Sp. cerro means 'small mountain, hill']. On the other hand, no such objection exists for It. cerro. Could and Lat. cerrus /kerrus/ be related to a pre-IE root and/or Celtic, for a certain type of mountain landscape? In such case, the suffix -sko would make a lot of sense. Just a thought." I'd like just add that the suffix -asko is the more tipycal locative ligurian suffix; it seems to have had IE links. The meaning must have been "high, elevated place". Alberto Lombardo Italy From mcv at wxs.nl Thu Jan 25 17:48:24 2001 From: mcv at wxs.nl (Miguel Carrasquer Vidal) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:48:24 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:10:10 +0100, "Kreso Megyeral" wrote: >In one Spanish grammar written in Croatian I found that there are still some >words in Spanish considered neuter (of course, not "leche") that express >collectives or some young animals. The article quoted is LO. Is it indeed, >or is it some interpretation of the author? LO as an article (i.e. preceding a noun) is completely unknown to me. ======================= Miguel Carrasquer Vidal mcv at wxs.nl From edsel at glo.be Thu Jan 25 18:59:12 2001 From: edsel at glo.be (Eduard Selleslagh) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:59:12 +0100 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kreso Megyeral" Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 12:10 AM > In one Spanish grammar written in Croatian I found that there are still some > words in Spanish considered neuter (of course, not "leche") that express > collectives or some young animals. The article quoted is LO. Is it indeed, > or is it some interpretation of the author? [Ed] LO is a definite article for the neuter sg., derived from Lat. demonstrative (acc.) ILLUD (like LA < ILLAM, and EL < ILLUM). It is usually used in phrases like 'hacer lo necesario' ('faire le n?cessaire', 'do what's needed/the necessary things') where it designates collectives, or in more abstract ones : a characteristic like 'lo bello, lo bonito es que...' ('the beautiful/nice thing [about it] is that...'). In some regions - the one I know for certain is Murcia - it appears in place names like 'Lo Pag?n', apparently referring originally to a property of some family; in the same region you find also toponyms like Los Urrutias (Basque settlers in the Campo de Cartagena when it was still largely a 'secano') or Los Velones, where such reference cannot be doubted. I would guess that LO has then a collective meaning 'all that belongs to...' LO can also be used separately as a general indication of 'the things': 'lo que hay que hacer...' ('that what has to be done...'), similar to Fr. 'ce [que]'. I am not aware of any neuter nouns in Spanish. If my memory serves me right, there are some southern Italian family names like Lo Vecchio, that might be based upon similar toponyms, but I leave that to the specialists in S. Italian dialects. Of course, LO is an article in regular Italian, but only as a replacement before sp-, sc- etc,. for euphonic reasons ('lo sport'). Ed. Selleslagh From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Thu Jan 25 20:11:34 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:11:34 -0500 Subject: txakur/dzhagaru/cachorro.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ moderator edited ] >Rick Mc Callister wrote: >>How common is this phenomenon in other Romance >>languages and other other languages with grammatical gender? >Interesting thing with disappearing of Latin neuter nouns happens in >Romanian. Romanian actually has neuter gender, but in singular forms it's >equal to masculine, while in plural to feminine. Even the definite article, >which is postpositive in Romanian, doesn't have its own form, but follows >the same pattern. >In one Spanish grammar written in Croatian I found that there are still some >words in Spanish considered neuter (of course, not "leche") that express >collectives or some young animals. The article quoted is LO. Is it indeed, >or is it some interpretation of the author? Spanish neuter lo is used with adjectives to express abstract qualities; e.g. bueno "good (masc.)" el bueno "the good (person, thing, place) (masc.)" lo bueno "that which is good, the good (thing, part, aspect, etc.)" there are also the neuter demonstratives esto "this one", eso "that one", aquello "that one (far away in space or time; or last in a series)". These are used to refer to abstract thoughts or things without antecedents such as a "one-eyed, one-horned flying purple people-eater" regarding collectives or baby animals, you just use the normal masculine or feminine article; e.g. el ternero "the calf", el cachorro "the puppy, cub, whelp", el gatito "the kitten"; el pinal, el pinar "the pine grove", los pinos "the pines" Asturian, on the other hand, does have a neuter that's used for collectives and, I think, "topic" or "generic" use. Posner talks about it and I have an Asturian student who's heard it used. Regarding masculine singular, feminine plural. Off the top of the head, the example in Spanish is el arte, las artes. Some speakers (and most dictionaries), however, use el arte (masc.) to mean "art" in a generic sense and el arte (fem.) to mean "art" in a specific sense. I've only come across the plural as las artes (fem.). The form el, normally masculine, is, of course, also used with feminine nouns beginning with a stressed /a/ Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu Thu Jan 25 17:58:28 2001 From: rmccalli at sunmuw1.MUW.Edu (Rick Mc Callister) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:58:28 -0500 Subject: cat < ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [snip] >The tail idea also occurs in squirrel, interpreted as >'shadow-tail.' But the shadow part sense. (Perhaps, , sometimes land overgrown with bushes, scrub.) If they look like American squirrels, their long thick tails shade them like umbrellas --but I admit that I'm getting into folk etymology. "Scrub tail, brush tail, bushy tail" describe squirrels even better --that is, if skiros + ouros actually means that in Greek Rick Mc Callister W-1634 Mississippi University for Women Columbus MS 39701 From jharvey at ucla.edu Sat Jan 27 01:32:14 2001 From: jharvey at ucla.edu (Jasmin Harvey) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:32:14 -0800 Subject: cat < ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: [ Moderator's note: I am setting aside the general prohibition against CC'd messages in this one instance, since there may be some interest on the part of the non-members who have contributed. Please be circumspect in replies, since they will not be used to the volume this list can generate. --rma ] I forwarded parts of this discussion to a friend who forwarded it onward and this response came back which may be of interest. Jasmin Harvey Germanic Linguistics C.Phil. http://www.germanic.ucla.edu jharvey at ucla.edu ------------------------------------- The source for the Celtic Cat information ... was Alexei Kondratiev, via Brenda Daverin. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fwd: Re: Of human cattage Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 23:18:18 -0800 From: "B. Daverin" To: "Birrell Walsh" Here is my source's response to the origins of the word "cat" taken back to Indo-European through Old/Common Celtic. I know that it's possible that someone else on that list has already pointed this out, but in case not, here's more for the discussion. Sla/n, Brenda ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- The Celtic word for "cat" is perfectly reconstructible as _kattos_ (also feminine _katta_). This gives _cat_ in both Irish and Scots Gaelic, _kayt_ in Manx, _cath_ in Welsh, _kath_ in Cornish, and _kazh_ in Breton. Many etymological dictionaries say that it's a borrowing from Latin _cattus_, but it seems completely obvious to me that the reverse is true, that _cattus_ in Latin (which appears rather late) is in fact a borrowing from a Celtic or other northern European source, displacing the original _felis_. That the word is native there is confirmed by the Gaulish name _Cattos_ and the tribal name _Chatti_ or _Chattes_ ("the Cats" -- ie, "the Wildcats") from the Celtic-Germanic border country. The word is thought to come from an IE stem *_kat-_ or *_qat-_ meaning "to cast down", in a specialised meaning of "what is cast down = offspring of an animal". An independent derivation in Latin is _catulus_ "puppy". The Celtic word evidently began with the sense of "baby animal", then specialised as "kitten", and eventually came to mean the animal at any age. From miskec4096 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 28 15:45:05 2001 From: miskec4096 at hotmail.com (Kreso Megyeral) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:45:05 +0100 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: Kastytis Beitas wrote: >I can propose other possible origin for some 'non-cat' cat words. >I think it is a rather frequent case when predatory animal is named >according its prey. >For example, in Lithuanian: >peleda "owl" <-- pele "mous" + eda "to eat", >zhuvedra "tern on gull" <-- zhuvis 'fish' + eda "to eat" (or edrus >"voracious") >In English: >polecat or polcat at 1320 "ferret" <-- Old French poule, pol "fowl, hen" + >cat Typical example are taboo-words, for example Slavic medvld - "honey eater", meaning that direct mentioning of the animal would bring bad luck. >2. Hindi bhili 'cat' <-> Russian bilo 'thing for beating', Eng. beat etc. >(maybe this bhili is cognate to Lithuanian pele) Russian "bilo" is a noun derived from the verb "bit'" - to beat, meaning that it CAN be related to Hindi, but it could be clear only if someone knew the Sanskrit word. >This comparison of mouse anf fly supports my hypothesis, because other >possible meaning for 'fly-words' is a "bitter; one who bites". This fits to >"bee-words" too: in Lithuanian bite "bee" etc. Armenian muk 'mouse' is >similar to Russian muka "flour; what is grinded' and Russian muka >"suffering"... Similar, yes, but if you don't pay attention on vocal laws, showing that Russian "u" comes from older "9" (nasalysed o), thus "m9ka". From miskec4096 at hotmail.com Sun Jan 28 15:55:26 2001 From: miskec4096 at hotmail.com (Kreso Megyeral) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 16:55:26 +0100 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: David White wrote: >A truly minor point ... Mongooses (-geese?) are viverrids, not mustelids, and >only one type of viverrid, the genet (not mongoose) of Iberia (spreading >recently to France and even western Germany), occurs in Europe. > For the Romans to call a mongoose a cat would have been more or less as for >us to call skunks 'polecats' or a kind of racoon 'ringtail cats'. >Not that that stops us. Speaking of deplorable, or understandable, vagueness >in terms for animal, it is within the realm of possibility the word for 'fox' >and 'wolf' were not originally distinguished, which would explain a few >things. Another good example occurs in Hungarian, where the word for turtle actually means "frog in shield", showing that even two different classes of vertebrates can merge. But mongooses are more similar to martens then to cats, and the marten is also quite usual species in Europe. From vistasjy at md.prestige.net Tue Jan 30 03:55:49 2001 From: vistasjy at md.prestige.net (JohnYY) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:55:49 -0500 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: The classical solution to the "mongoose plural" problem is embodied in the old (and probably apocryphal) message sent to the e-tailer by the poor chap beset by a plethora of cobras: "Please send me a mongoose; by the way, send me another one.". Since it stems from Marathi 'mong{s', perhaps a more elegant solutiion would be to use the plural form from that language (Does anyone know it?) (cf. "cherubim") ---------- > From: David L. White > Date: Monday, January 15, 2001 10:28 PM > Mongooses (-geese?) [ moderator snip ] From hwhatting at hotmail.com Tue Jan 30 07:19:25 2001 From: hwhatting at hotmail.com (Hans-Werner Hatting) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 08:19:25 +0100 Subject: cat < ? Message-ID: Dear List members, I think Kaystytis Beitas has made a valid point in suggesting a further source for the name of the cat. But there are problems with some of the links he proposes: 1. KB wrote: >For example: 1. Latin feles 'cat' reminds of Lithuanian pele 'mouse'. In >Watkins Dictionary of Indo-European Roots pel- means "to thrust, to >strike". >>I suppose Hindi bhili "cat" would be too fortuitous to suggest a >>connection based on *bhil-, *bhel-? >2. Hindi bhili 'cat' <-> Russian bilo 'thing for beating', Eng. beat > etc. >(maybe this bhili is cognate to Lithuanian pele) I don't know the origin of Hindi *bhili. Based on what KB suggests, a link to the root behind Engl. bite, Gm. beissen etc. might be possible. Certainly it is not linked to Lith. pele, as Indian /bh/ corresponds to Baltic /b/ (if we don't pull out the magic wand of taboo changes, of course). The vocalism (Hindi /i/ - Latin /e/ should not correspond)makes it also problematic to link bhili to feles. If we want to find a cognate for "pele", we would have to look for something like *pel/pol- in Latin and like *pal/par/p.r- in Indo-Aryan. 2. KB: >English mouse and German Maus are similar to Russian musor "debris; >litter". Chernykh states that musor is cognate with Russian musolit' >"slabber, slaver" and both them are originated from IE *meu-, *mou- >"damp, >moist" and "liquid dirt; mud". But this cognateness is between >musor and >mud, moist is more distant in my opinion: musor is >originated as "litter, >produced by chapping (or by mice?)"... As KB himself notes, the Gmc. mouse words are related to Slavic mysh', going back to PIE *muHs- or sim. As PIE /s/ became /sh/ in Slavic after /u/, /i/, /r/, /k/, "musor" cannot go back to PIE *muHs-; the /s/ goes either back to PIE /k'/, or the word is a compund of the root quoted by Chernykhov and the root contained in Russian _ssorit'sja_ "quarrel". I don't have an etymological dictionary here to check that question. 3. KB: >So there is some basis to state that this all-Indo-European word cat >in >all its variations may by descendant of some Indo-European root >with >meaning "to hit, to strike, to make hole etc". Distant cognate of >this >hypothetical (?) root may be Watkins's kat- "to fight" and kat- >"down". >Or cut in Chambers Dictionary of Etymology: ,,Probably before 1300 either >as: cutten <...>, kitten <...>; of >uncertain orrigin (possibly borrowed >from Scandinavian source; >compare Swedish dialect kuta, kata "to cut", >kuta "knife", and >Icelandic kuti "knife". '' Well, "cut" cannot be a Gmc. cognate of a PIE *kat-, as PIE */k/ gives /h/ in Gmc. in Anlaut position, and /t/ should give /T/ or /D/. The same reason speaks against deriving the Gmc. cat words from such a PIE root. One aside - are there any data available for the first recordings of the _katto- / gatto- _ - word? As already has been stated by Rick Mc Callister at the start of this thread, the words look too much alike to be of PIE origin, and I would add that the k/g variation in Greek, as well as between individual Romance languages (e.g., It. gatto vs. French chat) also are arguments against an inheritance from PIE. My preference is to see the word as a loan from a non-IE source, maybe on such a route: (Source language) > Greek > Romance, Celtic, Gmc, Slavic etc. 4. KB: >So distant relativeof English cat or Lithuanian kate "male cat" or >Russian >kot "male cat" may be English kettle, Lithuanian katilas >"kettle": In >Chambers Dict.of Etym.: ,,kettle -- <...> borrowed directly from Latin >catillus "small bowl, >dish or plate", diminutive of catinus "bowl, dish, >pot"; perhaps >cognate with Greek kotyle "small vessel, cup" <...>. '' Concerning the impossibility of Gmc. /k/ being from PIE /k/ (except if one uses that other magic wand, a IE substrate language influence), see above. Lith. "katilas" is most probably a loan from Latin, via Slavic (v. Russian "kotel", Common Slavic *koti0lu0-) (i0, u0 denoting the front and back yers, respectively). 5. KB: >This excerpt from Chambers Dict.of Etym. reminds on my old posting (Lith. >peilis "knife" <-> Lith. pele "mous"): >>The similar case is with Lithuanian "peilis" 'knife'. It is similar >>to >>Russian "pila" 'saw', Lat. "pilum" 'heavy javelin, pestle', OHG "pfil" >>'arrow, stake'. In this context OE "pil" 'stake, shaft, spike' and Eng >>"pile" 'arrow, >>dart' >may be not borrowings as it is stated in Chambers >>Dict. of >>Etym. ( p.794)] but words of common Indo-European origin. The vocalism speaks against pele and peilis being cognates - there is no PIE ablaut pattern e-ei. The link peilis - pilum - pila looks possible. Because of the initial p/pf the English and OHG words have to be loans from Latin. I hope I did not spoil too much fun by insisting on the observance of sound laws. But I think if one disregards them, one should give good reasons for doing so, otherwise we'll very soon arrive again in a state where "in etymology, vowels mean nothing, and consonants very little". Best regards, Hans-Werner Hatting