Genetic Descent

[Leo A. Connolly]

Maria Anna Calamia wrote:
>
> I am not sure that all of your examples are relavent. In the first
> example the more accurate translation would be "the books are pleasing
> to me". The corresponding verb in Italian "piacere" follows the same
> pattern: Mi piacciono i libri. There is nothing preventing one from
> saying: Los libros me gustan or I libri mi piacciono, therefore
> creating an SOV order. The only reason for this type of word order as
> you point out is that the verb is passive. Maria Anna Calamia > Me
> gustan los libros. > "To me please (3p) the books." > "I like books."
> [ moderator snip ] >Rick Mc Callister >W-1634 >Mississippi University
> for Women >Columbus MS 39701

How is 'the books are pleasing to me' "more accurate"?  The most
accurate translation is that which, in its own language, most closely
corresponds to the original in meaning *and* in the psychological
impression made on the hearer/reader.  The original is natural; your
translation is weird.  Superficial grammatical structure has nothing to
do with it.  Nothing!

BTW, apart from the grammatical subject, the structure of your "more
accurate" translation is not parallel to that of the original.
"Pleasing" must be construed as a predicate adjective, not as part of a
progressive verb form; and "to me" is dependent on this adjective rather
than being an argument of the verb, as in Spanish or Italian.

Neither can we say that _gustar_ and _piacere_ are "passive".  What
activity is performed, and by whom or what?  If neither the meaning nor
the form is passive, in what sense can one say that these verbs are?

The best explanation I know is the Case Grammar analysis based on
Fillmore: English _like_, Sp. _gustar_, Italian _piacere_, and German
_gefallen_, have two arguments: an "Experiencer" and a "Patient" or
"Theme".  The "normal" subject in this configuration is the Experiencer,
which is now (but not formerly) the choice for the grammatical subject
of _like_.  But _gustar_, _piacere_, and _gefallen_, like many verbs of
similar meaning in other languages, make the Patient (Theme) the
grammatical subject.  This, however, causes complications.  In both
Spanish and Italian, the Experiencer precedes the verb; _los libros me
gustan_ is just barely possible and cannot in any sense be called good
Spanish, whereas _A Carlos no le gustan los libros_ is perfect.  But
this makes sense if we reflect a bit.  Even though Spanish _gustar_ has
the "wrong" grammatical subject, it nevertheless places the Experiencer
PP _A Carlos_ ahead of the verb, where the subject "ought" to go.  Ditto
Italian. -- Most modern linguists have taken note of such facts and
declared that forms such as _A Carlos_ in such sentences actually *are*
subjects.  While I strongly disagree on that point, it is more
defensible than a claim that _gustar_ is somehow "passive".

Leo Connolly