Genetic Descent

[Hans-Werner Hatting]

Original message:

>From: "David L. White" <dlwhite at texas.net>
>Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:30:40 -0500

(snip)

>> First, Anglo-Romani.  According to T and K, this consists of wholly Romani
>> lexis plus wholly English grammar.  According to David White's proposal,
>> then, Anglo-Romani is English, since it has English verbal morphology.  Is
>> this a satisfactory conclusion so far?

>     Yes.

>> Now, consider how Anglo-Romani came into existence.  I assume it didn't
>> spring into being overnight, but must have evolved gradually.  So there are
>> broadly two possibilities.

>> First, Anglo-Romani started off as plain English, but was gradually
>> relexified from Romani until no English lexis was left.  According to
>> David's proposal, this *must* be what happened, since the alternative below
>> seems to be impossible.

>         Yes.

>> Second, Anglo-Romani started off as Romani, but it gradually borrowed more
>> and more grammar from English, until there was no Romani grammar left.
>> Under David's proposal, this appears to be impossible, since the language,
>> in this scenario, has shifted from having Romani verbal morphology to having
>> English verbal morphology -- seemingly in conflict with the proposal on the
>> table, which sees verbal morphology as inviolate.  It also, of course, has
>> the peculiar consequence that Anglo-Romani has changed from being Romani to
>> being English -- an outcome surely more bizarre than anything contemplated
>> in T and K.

>         Yes, that is why I favor the first.

(snip)

Let me put in some information I recollect from a seminary on Romani I
attended way back at university:

1. English gypsies were speaking a version of Romani with *Romani* grammar
when they immigrated into England;

2. Gradually, they started to use English among themselves, and English also
became the language taught to children;

3. Nowadays, English Romani (with Romani lexicon and English morphology) is
a "secret" group languages into which speakers - who have English as first
language - are initiated by older speakers.

If this information is correct, English Romani is indeed basically English
relexified with Romani vocabulary. We have a case of language change where
the lexicon of the old language is preserved for special purposes. English
Romani goes farther than most other secret languages (like German
"Rotwelsch" or Russsian "blat", in which the basic function words (pronouns,
conjunctions, auxiliaries etc.) are normally from the "base" language which
provides the morphology), but essentially the same principle is at work - a
secret language is formed by relexifying a "base language" from other
sources.

Best regards,
H. W. Hatting