From Ben.Ambridge at liverpool.ac.uk Fri Jun 1 15:02:54 2012 From: Ben.Ambridge at liverpool.ac.uk (Ambridge, Ben) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 15:02:54 +0000 Subject: Postdoctoral Research Associate in Computational Modeling Message-ID: Dear colleagues I would be grateful if you could circulate the attached job advertisement ==================================================== http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/AEO142/postdoctoral-research-associate/ ==================================================== Postdoctoral Research Associate Computational Modeling: Child Language Acquisition University of Liverpool Faculty of Health and Life Sciences Institute Of Psychology, Health and Society £31,020 pa You will join a child language modeling project, led by Dr Franklin Chang. The project will involve the development of a connectionist model of syntax acquisition that will be fit to range of acquisition phenomena (e.g., grammaticality judgments, preferential looking, elicited production). You will be responsible for programming and analysing a neural network of syntax acquisition. You should have a PhD in psychology, computer science or a closely related field and have experience programming (C++, Java, statistical packages such as R) and an interest in connectionist models and syntactic development. The post is available for 2 years, commencing 1 October 2012. Job Ref: R-577723 Closing Date: 1 August 2012 For full details, or to request an application pack, please APPLY ONLINE below, or e-mail jobs at liv.ac.uk, please quote Job Ref in all enquiries -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From jean.berko.gleason at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 07:51:25 2012 From: jean.berko.gleason at gmail.com (Jean Berko Gleason) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 03:51:25 -0400 Subject: Amazon.com: Development of Language, The (8th Edition) (9780132612388): Jean Berko Gleason, Nan Bernstein Ratner: Books Message-ID: Hi everyone Here's Amazon's new ad for the 8th edition of our book! Jean -- http://www.amazon.com/Development-Language-The-8th-Edition/dp/0132612380/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338621461&sr=1-1#productPromotionscaro -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edy.veneziano at paris5.sorbonne.fr Sat Jun 2 09:47:26 2012 From: edy.veneziano at paris5.sorbonne.fr (edy veneziano) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:47:26 +0200 Subject: Announcement for LIA - A Journal on Language Acquisition Message-ID: We are pleased to announce that LIA, a new Journal on Language acquisition (see below), can publish, as of this month, both special issues and independent papers in non-thematic issues. LIA Language, Interaction & Acquisition Langage, Interaction & Acquisition New journal on language acquisition Aims and scope of LIA LIA is a bilingual English-French journal that publishes original theoretical and empirical research of high scientific quality at the forefront of current debates concerning language acquisition. It covers all facets of language acquisition among different types of learners and in diverse learning situations, with particular attention to oral language and/or to signed languages. Topics include the acquisition of one or more foreign languages, of one or more first languages, and of sign languages, as well as learners’ use of gestures during speech; the relationship between language and cognition during acquisition; bilingualism and situations of language contact, for example pidginisation and creolisation. It also welcomes contributions about language impairments, however with emphasis on oral language. LIA offers a unique space to cover all of these topics and their interrelations in an interdisciplinary perspective(linguistics, psycholinguistics, sociolinguistics). The bilingual nature of LIA aims at reaching a readership in a wide international community,while simultaneously continuing to attract intellectual and linguistic resources stemming from multiple scientific traditions in Europe, thereby remaining faithful to its original French anchoring. LIA is the direct descendant of the French-speaking journal AILE. It first appeared in 2009 under the transition name AILE...LIA and is published by John Benjamins since 2010. Website of LIA: http://www.benjamins.com/cgi-bin/t_seriesview.cgi?series=LIA Link for submissions : http://www.editorialmanager.com/lia. LIA appears twice a year. From 2012 on, it publishes not only special issues around particular topics, but also independent articles in non thematic issues. Articles must be written in French or in English and must provide abstracts in both languages. All articles are evaluated by at least two reviewers in a two-way blind procedure. Until the end of 2014, 50 copies of each issue of LIA are available at promotional prices (15€;10€ for students). Orders should be sent to the following address: lia at sfl.cnrs.fr. Editor-in-Chief: Maya HICKMANN Associate Editors: Dominique BASSANO, Sandra BENAZZO, Marion BLONDEL, Marianne GULLBERG, Daniel VÉRONIQUE. Summary of LIA Publications 2009-2011 2009 – AILE...LIA 1 (double issue) S. Benazzo (ed.) At the crossroads of different types of acquisition: why compare and how? Au croisement de différents types d’acquisition : pourquoi et comment comparer ? 2009 – AILE...LIA 2 J-Y. Dommergues (ed.) Phonology, bilingualism and second language acquisition Phonologie, bilinguisme & acquisition des langues secondes 2010 - LIA 1:1 M.-A. Sallandre & M. Blondel (eds.) Acquiring sign language as a first language Acquisition d’une langue des signes comme langue première 2010 - LIA 1:2 D. Véronique (ed.) The processing of input in second language acquisition Le traitement de l’input dans l’acquisition des langues étrangères 2011 - LIA 2:1 D. Bassano & M. Hickmann (eds.) Grammaticalization and language acquisition: Nouns and verbs across languages Grammaticalisation et acquisition du langage : noms et verbes à travers les langues 2011 - LIA 2:2 M. Schmid & B. Köpke (eds.) First language attrition L’attrition de la langue première 2012 - LIA 3:1 C. Linqvist & C. Bardel (eds.) The acquisition of French as a second language: New developmental perspectives / L’acquisition du français langue seconde : nouvelles perspectives développementales For more details and tables of contents: http://www.benjamins.com/cgi-bin/t_seriesview.cgi?series=LIA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adelepro at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 15:48:47 2012 From: adelepro at gmail.com (Adele Proctor) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 10:48:47 -0500 Subject: Announcement for LIA - A Journal on Language Acquisition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is very exciting!!! Merci, Adele P. On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 4:47 AM, edy veneziano < edy.veneziano at paris5.sorbonne.fr> wrote: > We are pleased to announce that LIA, a new Journal on Language acquisition > (see below), can publish, as of this month, both special issues and > independent papers in non-thematic issues. > > > * LIA* > *Language, Interaction & Acquisition > Langage, Interaction & Acquisition * > *New journal on language acquisition* > > *Aims and scope of LIA > *LIA is a bilingual English-French journal that publishes original > theoretical and empirical research of high scientific quality at the > forefront of current debates concerning language acquisition. It covers all > facets of language acquisition among different types of learners and > in diverse learning situations, with particular attention to oral language > and/or to signed languages. Topics include the acquisition of one or more > foreign languages, of one or more first languages, and of sign languages, > as well as learners’ use of gestures during speech; the relationship > between language and cognition during acquisition; bilingualism and > situations of language contact, for example pidginisation and creolisation. > It also welcomes contributions about language impairments, however with > emphasis on oral language. LIA offers a unique space to cover all of these > topics and their interrelations in an interdisciplinary > perspective(linguistics, psycholinguistics, sociolinguistics). > > The bilingual nature of LIA aims at reaching a readership in a wide > international community,while simultaneously continuing to > attract intellectual and linguistic resources stemming from multiple > scientific traditions in Europe, thereby remaining faithful to its original > French anchoring. LIA is the direct descendant of the French-speaking > journal AILE. It first appeared in 2009 under the > transition name AILE...LIA and is published by John Benjamins since 2010. > > Website of LIA: > http://www.benjamins.com/cgi-bin/t_seriesview.cgi?series=LIA > Link for submissions : http://www.editorialmanager.com/lia. > > LIA appears twice a year. From 2012 on, it publishes not only special > issues around particular topics, but also independent articles in > non thematic issues. Articles must be written in French or in English and > must provide abstracts in both languages. All articles are evaluated by at > least two reviewers in a two-way blind procedure. > > Until the end of 2014, 50 copies of each issue of LIA are available at > promotional prices (15€;10€ for students). Orders should be sent to the > following address: lia at sfl.cnrs.fr. > > Editor-in-Chief: Maya HICKMANN > Associate Editors: Dominique BASSANO, Sandra BENAZZO, Marion BLONDEL, > Marianne GULLBERG, Daniel VÉRONIQUE. > > > > *Summary of LIA Publications 2009-2011 > **2009 – AILE...LIA 1* (double issue) > S. Benazzo (ed.) > At the crossroads of different types of acquisition: why compare and how? > Au croisement de différents types d’acquisition : pourquoi et > comment comparer ? > > *2009 – AILE...LIA 2* > J-Y. Dommergues (ed.) > Phonology, bilingualism and second language acquisition > Phonologie, bilinguisme & acquisition des langues secondes > > *2010 - LIA 1:1* > M.-A. Sallandre & M. Blondel (eds.) > Acquiring sign language as a first language > Acquisition d’une langue des signes comme langue première > > *2010 - LIA 1:2* > D. Véronique (ed.) > The processing of input in second language acquisition > Le traitement de l’input dans l’acquisition des langues étrangères > > *2011 - LIA 2:1* > D. Bassano & M. Hickmann (eds.) > Grammaticalization and language acquisition: Nouns and verbs > across languages > Grammaticalisation et acquisition du langage : noms et verbes à > travers les langues > > *2011 - LIA 2:2* > M. Schmid & B. Köpke (eds.) > First language attrition > L’attrition de la langue première > > *2012 - LIA 3:1 > *C. Linqvist & C. Bardel (eds.) > The acquisition of French as a second language: New > developmental perspectives / > L’acquisition du français langue seconde : nouvelles > perspectives développementales > > For more details and tables of contents: > http://www.benjamins.com/cgi-bin/t_seriesview.cgi?series=LIA > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zhangjing19880202 at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 02:56:13 2012 From: zhangjing19880202 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?6Z2ZIOW8oA==?=) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:56:13 -0700 Subject: Can we run MLU function in Chinese? Message-ID: Hi, Is there anyone that how to run MLU in Chinese? I am not sure whether it can distinguish Chinese morphine in CLAN. Looking forward a reply. Thank you so much! Have a nice day! ZJ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From millieaine at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 02:50:37 2012 From: millieaine at hotmail.com (Amelia Manolescu) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:50:37 -0700 Subject: PsyScope Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone know if there is any way of using PsyScope on a PC rather than on a Mac? Thanks -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From macw at cmu.edu Wed Jun 6 07:38:45 2012 From: macw at cmu.edu (Brian MacWhinney) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 09:38:45 +0200 Subject: Can we run MLU function in Chinese? In-Reply-To: <9217f8f7-dba5-46df-888a-a182a6b3cde8@h10g2000pbi.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Dear ZJ, This is really a question for the chibolts at googlegroups.com list. However, the answer is simple. As long as you add spaces to Chinese, MLU and the various other aspects of CLAN will work fine. The decisions about where to add spaces are based on principles that are pretty much integrated into MOR. If you have further questions, please post to chibolts at googlegroups.com -- Brian MacWhinney On Jun 6, 2012, at 4:56 AM, 静 张 wrote: > Hi, > Is there anyone that how to run MLU in Chinese? I am not sure whether > it can distinguish Chinese morphine in CLAN. > Looking forward a reply. > Thank you so much! > Have a nice day! > ZJ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From zhangjing19880202 at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 07:52:59 2012 From: zhangjing19880202 at gmail.com (Sherry Zhang) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 15:52:59 +0800 Subject: Can we run MLU function in Chinese? In-Reply-To: <54A413BF-60DF-41D6-B786-58B242ACC7D2@cmu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Brian MacWhinney, Thank you so much for your reply. I added spaces in Chinese. And I tried other aspects of CLAN. They can work fine. However, MLU can't work. Do I need to do anything else to run MLU calculate? Again, Thank you so much! Bests, ZJ On 6 Jun, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Brian MacWhinney wrote: > Dear ZJ, > This is really a question for the chibolts at googlegroups.com list. However, the answer is simple. As long as you add spaces to Chinese, MLU and the various other aspects of CLAN will work fine. The decisions about where to add spaces are based on principles that are pretty much integrated into MOR. If you have further questions, please post to chibolts at googlegroups.com > > -- Brian MacWhinney > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 4:56 AM, 静 张 wrote: > >> Hi, >> Is there anyone that how to run MLU in Chinese? I am not sure whether >> it can distinguish Chinese morphine in CLAN. >> Looking forward a reply. >> Thank you so much! >> Have a nice day! >> ZJ >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. >> To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From spektor at andrew.cmu.edu Wed Jun 6 14:04:02 2012 From: spektor at andrew.cmu.edu (Leonid Spektor) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 10:04:02 -0400 Subject: Can we run MLU function in Chinese? In-Reply-To: <979F35F3-15B7-4C32-B0C8-19D93B0A4359@gmail.com> Message-ID: I will post answer to this email where is belongs on chibolts at googlegroups.com. Leonid. On Jun 6, 2012, at 03:52 , Sherry Zhang wrote: > Dear Brian MacWhinney, > > Thank you so much for your reply. > > I added spaces in Chinese. And I tried other aspects of CLAN. They can work fine. However, MLU can't work. > > Do I need to do anything else to run MLU calculate? > > Again, Thank you so much! > > Bests, > > ZJ > On 6 Jun, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Brian MacWhinney wrote: > >> Dear ZJ, >> This is really a question for the chibolts at googlegroups.com list. However, the answer is simple. As long as you add spaces to Chinese, MLU and the various other aspects of CLAN will work fine. The decisions about where to add spaces are based on principles that are pretty much integrated into MOR. If you have further questions, please post to chibolts at googlegroups.com >> >> -- Brian MacWhinney >> >> On Jun 6, 2012, at 4:56 AM, 静 张 wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> Is there anyone that how to run MLU in Chinese? I am not sure whether >>> it can distinguish Chinese morphine in CLAN. >>> Looking forward a reply. >>> Thank you so much! >>> Have a nice day! >>> ZJ >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From mbecker at email.unc.edu Wed Jun 6 17:15:40 2012 From: mbecker at email.unc.edu (Becker, Misha K) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 17:15:40 +0000 Subject: transitive verbs and 8-year-olds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A colleague of mine is looking for a list of unambiguously transitive verbs that would be known by 8-year-old (American) English-speakers. Does anyone know where I/he could find such a list? Thanks in advance, Misha -- Misha Becker Associate Professor UNC Linguistics Department 301 Smith Building, CB#3155 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3155 mbecker at email.unc.edu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From Roberta at udel.edu Wed Jun 6 17:19:58 2012 From: Roberta at udel.edu (Roberta Golinkoff) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 13:19:58 -0400 Subject: transitive verbs and 8-year-olds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Look at paper by Masterson et al. in Journal of Child Language for a start with younger kids in case you can't find a list for older kids: Masterson, J., Druks, J., & Gallienne, D. (2008). Object and action picture naming in 3- to 5-year-old children. Journal of Child Language, 35, 373-402. Best Roberta On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Becker, Misha K wrote: > A colleague of mine is looking for a list of unambiguously transitive > verbs that would be known by 8-year-old (American) English-speakers. Does > anyone know where I/he could find such a list? > > Thanks in advance, > Misha > -- > > Misha Becker > Associate Professor > UNC Linguistics Department > 301 Smith Building, CB#3155 > Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3155 > mbecker at email.unc.edu > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > -- Roberta Michnick Golinkoff, Ph. D. H. Rodney Sharp Professor School of Education and Departments of Psychology and Linguistics and Cognitive Science University of Delaware, Newark, DE 19716 Office: 302-831-1634; Fax: 302-831-4110 Web page: http://udel.edu/~roberta/ Author of "A Mandate for Playful Learning in Preschool: Presenting the Evidence" (Oxford) http://www.mandateforplayfullearning.com/ Please check out our doctoral program at http://www.udel.edu/education/graduate/index.html The late Mary Dunn said, "Life is the time we have to learn." -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smilingfla at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 16:21:00 2012 From: smilingfla at gmail.com (Flavia Adani) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 18:21:00 +0200 Subject: Call for abstracts: DGfS workshop: Specific conditions in language acquisition (deadline August 15th, 2012) Message-ID: We are accepting submissions for the following DGfS workshop, which will be held at the University of Potsdam on March 12-15, 2013, as part of the DGfS annual conference. Topic: The investigation of early language acquisition and its development under specific conditions has proven to be a powerful tool to learn more about the system of different languages and their acquisition mechanisms. Several studies have addressed the question of how children acquire one or more languages under specific conditions, such as developmental disorders, sensory disabilities, or different ages of onset in L2-acquisition. This line of comparative research (cross-population and/or cross-linguistic) is able to uncover subtle aspects of the language acquisition process that only emerge under some specific conditions and it also helps in providing a finer-grained characterization of language disorders. The papers in this workshop will focus on three topics: i) the comparison between different populations and different languages as a way to characterize the language acquisition process under specific conditions; ii) the distinction between “typical” and “atypical” language development and the discussion of different explanations for the latter (such as an impairment of the linguistic system or a performance deficit) and their potential interplay; and iii) the contribution of experimental data to inform the representation of grammar under specific conditions and vice versa. The workshop gives an opportunity to address also methodological questions, e.g. the factors that need to be controlled when discussing different groups and the criteria of matching in order to draw meaningful comparisons (e.g. matching based on age, length of exposure, or linguistic abilities). Towards this end, the workshop aims to bring together recent studies that examine two or more groups acquiring one language under different specific conditions or cross-linguistic research on children acquiring different languages under the same specific condition, namely: children with Specific Language Impairment (SLI), children with hearing impairment, L2-learners with different ages of onset and children with Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD). The research will include the acquisition of different aspects of language, such as phonetics/phonology, inflectional morphology, and syntax. Please send a one-page abstract (one anonymous version and one version with the authors' names and affiliations) by e-mail to Flavia Adani (e-mail: adani (at) uni-potsdam.de), Johannes Hennies (e-mail: johannes (at) hennies.org) and Eva Wimmer (e-Mail: eva.wimmer (at) uni-koeln.de) by August 15th, 2012. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From jo.vanherwegen at googlemail.com Wed Jun 13 10:42:34 2012 From: jo.vanherwegen at googlemail.com (Jo Van Herwegen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:42:34 +0100 Subject: Final reminder: neurodevelopmental disorders seminar series Message-ID: Dear all, We still have some spaces left for the first seminar in the neurodevelopmental disorders seminar series. This seminar will take place on Friday 29/06/2012 and will discuss co-morbidity, variability and sub-groups with neurodevelopmental disorders at Kingston University (20 minutes from central London on public transport). This workshop is part of a seminar series which explores recent findings in neurodevelopmental disorders, with a particular focus on 1) the new research tools and methods used, 2) discussion of the wider applicability of these new tools and methods across different neurodevelopmental disorders, 3) identifying future challenges or controversies when studying neurodevelopmental disorders using a developmental approach. This seminar series hopes to bring together specialists and established researchers as well as post-graduates, post-doctoral researchers and early career researchers in neurodevelopmental disorders. This series is sponsored by the BPS and Williams syndrome Foundation UK. More information about the seminar series and organising committee can be obtained from http://www.neurodevelopmentaldisorders-seminarseries.co.uk/ Final registration deadline Monday 25/06/2012 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From t.marinis at reading.ac.uk Wed Jun 13 20:57:18 2012 From: t.marinis at reading.ac.uk (Theodoros Marinis) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:57:18 +0000 Subject: Job openings in multilingual language learning/acquisition and/or literacy, University of Reading, UK In-Reply-To: <6A830A93D7D88F47A982868BF3F5264C1E266031@vime-mbx1.rdg.ac.uk> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guidetti at univ-tlse2.fr Thu Jun 14 13:37:53 2012 From: guidetti at univ-tlse2.fr (=?UTF-8?Q?Guidetti_Mich=C3=A8le?=) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:37:53 +0200 Subject: Book announcement : Gesture and Multimodal development Message-ID: Gesture and Multimodal Development Edited by Jean-Marc Colletta and Michèle Guidetti Université Stendhal - Grenoble 3 / Université Toulouse 2 We gesture while we talk and children use gestures prior to words to communicate during the first year. Later, as words become the preferred form of communication, children continue to gesture to reinforce or extend the spoken messages or even to replace them. This volume, originally published as a Special Issue of Gesture 10:2/3 (2010), brings together studies from language acquisition and developmental psychology. It provides a review of common theoretical, methodological and empirical themes, and the contributions address topics such as gesture use in prelinguistic infants with a special and new focus on pointing, the relationship between gestures and lexical development in typically developing and deaf children and even how gesture can help to learn mathematics. All in all, it brings additional evidence on how gestures are related to language, communication and mind development. [Benjamins Current Topics, 39] 2012. xii, 223 pp. http://benjamins.com/#catalog/books/bct.39/main Table of contents About the authors Introduction Gesture and multimodal development Michèle Guidetti and Jean-Marc Colletta Articles Pointing gesture in young children: Hand preference and language development Hélène Cochet and Jacques Vauclair Support or competition? Dynamic development of the relationship between manual pointing and symbolic gestures from 6 to 18 months of age Claire D. Vallotton >From gesture to sign and from gesture to word: Pointing in deaf and hearing children Aliyah Morgenstern, Stéphanie Caët, Marie Collombel-Leroy, Fanny Limousin and Marion Blondel How the hands control attention during early word learning Nancy de Villiers Rader and Patricia Zukow-Goldring Infant movement as a window into language processing Laurel Fais, Julia Leibowich, Ladan Hamadani and Lana Ohira Children’s lexical skills and task demands affect gestural behavior in mothers of late-talking children and children with typical language development Angela Grimminger, Katharina J. Rohlfing and Prisca Stenneken The type of shared activity shapes caregiver and infant communication Daniel Puccini, Mireille Hassemer, Dorothé Salomo and Ulf Liszkowski Transcribing and annotating multimodality: How deaf children’s productions call into the question the analytical tools Agnès Millet and Isabelle Estève Mathematical learning and gesture: Character viewpoint and observer viewpoint in students’ gestured graphs of functions Susan Gerofsky “This collection of papers presents a wonderful and vast overview of contemporary research on gesture and multimodal development, representing multiple theoretical and applied perspectives. [...] It constitutes a major contribution not only to the study of gestural and multimodal development, but also to the understanding of cognitive and communicative development in a more broad sense.” Olga Capirci, ISTC – CNR “Looking at a variety of languages, input conditions, and contexts of language use, these researchers demonstrate how language development is necessarily embodied and multimodal. These studies present exciting new insights into the dynamic relationships that are necessary for language development.” Elena Nicoladis, University of Alberta, Canada -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mccune at rci.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 14 14:15:11 2012 From: mccune at rci.rutgers.edu (Lorraine McCune) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:15:11 -0400 Subject: Book announcement : Gesture and Multimodal development In-Reply-To: <00d201cd4a32$e63fe620$b2bfb260$@univ-tlse2.fr> Message-ID: Dear Michelle, I will order this immediately! Very exciting. I will be in Paris working with Maya Hickman 2012/2013, so hopefully we will meet during that time. Sincerely, Lorraine On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Guidetti Michèle wrote: > ** ** > > *Gesture and Multimodal Development***** > > *Edited by Jean-Marc Colletta and Michèle Guidetti***** > > Université Stendhal - Grenoble 3 / Université Toulouse 2**** > > ** ** > > We gesture while we talk and children use gestures prior to words to > communicate during the first year. Later, as words become the preferred > form of communication, children continue to gesture to reinforce or extend > the spoken messages or even to replace them. This volume, originally > published as a Special Issue of *Gesture *10:2/3 (2010), brings together > studies from language acquisition and developmental psychology. It provides > a review of common theoretical, methodological and empirical themes, and > the contributions address topics such as gesture use in prelinguistic > infants with a special and new focus on pointing, the relationship between > gestures and lexical development in typically developing and deaf children > and even how gesture can help to learn mathematics. All in all, it brings > additional evidence on how gestures are related to language, communication > and mind development.**** > > * * > > *[Benjamins Current Topics, 39] 2012. xii, 223 pp.* > > * * > > http://benjamins.com/#catalog/books/bct.39/main**** > > * * > > ** ** > > *Table of contents***** > > *About the authors***** > > *Introduction***** > > Gesture and multimodal development**** > > *Michèle Guidetti and Jean-Marc Colletta***** > > *Articles***** > > Pointing gesture in young children: Hand preference and language > development**** > > *Hélène Cochet and Jacques Vauclair***** > > Support or competition? Dynamic development of the relationship between > manual pointing and symbolic gestures from 6 to 18 months of age**** > > *Claire D. Vallotton***** > > From gesture to sign and from gesture to word: Pointing in deaf and > hearing children**** > > *Aliyah Morgenstern, Stéphanie Caët, Marie Collombel-Leroy, Fanny > Limousin and Marion Blondel***** > > How the hands control attention during early word learning**** > > *Nancy de Villiers Rader and Patricia Zukow-Goldring***** > > Infant movement as a window into language processing**** > > *Laurel Fais, Julia Leibowich, Ladan Hamadani and Lana Ohira***** > > Children’s lexical skills and task demands affect gestural behavior in > mothers of late-talking children and children with typical language > development**** > > *Angela Grimminger, Katharina J. Rohlfing and Prisca Stenneken***** > > The type of shared activity shapes caregiver and infant communication**** > > *Daniel Puccini, Mireille Hassemer, Dorothé Salomo and Ulf Liszkowski***** > > Transcribing and annotating multimodality: How deaf children’s productions > call into the question the analytical tools**** > > *Agnès Millet and Isabelle Estève***** > > Mathematical learning and gesture: Character viewpoint and observer > viewpoint in students’ gestured graphs of functions**** > > *Susan Gerofsky* > > ** ** > > “This collection of papers presents a wonderful and vast overview of > contemporary research on gesture and multimodal development, representing > multiple theoretical and applied perspectives. [...] It constitutes a major > contribution not only to the study of gestural and multimodal development, > but also to the understanding of cognitive and communicative development in > a more broad sense.”**** > > *Olga Capirci*, *ISTC – CNR***** > > “Looking at a variety of languages, input conditions, and contexts of > language use, these researchers demonstrate how language development is > necessarily embodied and multimodal. These studies present exciting new > insights into the dynamic relationships that are necessary for language > development.”**** > > *Elena Nicoladis*, *University of Alberta, Canada***** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > -- Lorraine McCune, EdD Chair, Department of Educational Psychology Graduate School of Education Rutgers University 10 Seminary Place New Brunswick, NJ 08901 Ph: 732-932-7496 ex. 8310 FAX: 732932-6829 Web Page: www.gse.rutgers.edu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsnow at u.washington.edu Sat Jun 16 21:31:34 2012 From: lsnow at u.washington.edu (Laura Snow) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 14:31:34 -0700 Subject: pronoun errors of gender Message-ID: Dear all, I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do these errors occur? 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that they occur? 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and saying, "He has it") In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would also be useful! Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP University of Washington Center on Human Development and Disability Seattle, WA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aliyah.morgenstern at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 22:31:22 2012 From: aliyah.morgenstern at gmail.com (Aliyah MORGENSTERN) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 00:31:22 +0200 Subject: pronoun errors of gender In-Reply-To: <000901cd4c07$6791c1a0$36b544e0$@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Dear Laura, I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of feminine). As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when they are repaired by adults. I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which influence certain automatisms...). As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. Best, Aliyah Aliyah Morgenstern Professor of Linguistics Sorbonne Nouvelle University Le 16 juin 2012 à 23:31, Laura Snow a écrit : > Dear all, > > I’m trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse “he” and “she”), and if so, > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do these errors occur? > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that they occur? > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and saying, “He has it”) > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I’m mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would also be useful! > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > University of Washington > Center on Human Development and Disability > Seattle, WA > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 23:45:20 2012 From: dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com (Denis Donovan) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 19:45:20 -0400 Subject: pronoun errors in gender Message-ID: Hi Laura, Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne :xiii). Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this observation: In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a not uncommon case. Best, Denis Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. Director, EOCT Institute Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry St. Petersburg, Florida P.O Box 47576 St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 Phone: 727-641-8905 DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DONOVAN-What would a young ?essentially computational? mind look like.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 154886 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lise.menn at Colorado.EDU Sun Jun 17 16:41:51 2012 From: lise.menn at Colorado.EDU (Lise Menn) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:41:51 -0600 Subject: Digest for info-childes@googlegroups.com - 3 Messages in 2 Topics In-Reply-To: <90e6ba21241bbec3ec04c2aa909b@google.com> Message-ID: The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair makes them more vulnerable to error. Lise Menn On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, > > wrote: Today's Topic Summary Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics * pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] * pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] pronoun errors in gender Denis Donovan > Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 Hi Laura, Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne :xiii). Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this observation: In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a not uncommon case. Best, Denis Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. Director, EOCT Institute Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry St. Petersburg, Florida P.O Box 47576 St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 Phone: 727-641-8905 DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com pronoun errors of gender "Laura Snow" > Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 Dear all, I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do these errors occur? 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that they occur? 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and saying, "He has it") In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would also be useful! Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP University of Washington Center on Human Development and Disability Seattle, WA Aliyah MORGENSTERN > Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 Dear Laura, I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of feminine). As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when they are repaired by adults. I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which influence certain automatisms...). As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. Best, Aliyah Aliyah Morgenstern Professor of Linguistics Sorbonne Nouvelle University Le 16 juin 2012 à 23:31, Laura Snow a écrit : You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group info-childes. You can post via email. To unsubscribe from this group, send an empty message. For more options, visit this group. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 Boulder CO 80302 Professor Emerita of Linguistics Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science University of Colorado Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] Campus Mail Address: UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science Campus Physical Address: CINC 234 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sbraunwd at cox.net Sun Jun 17 18:44:17 2012 From: sbraunwd at cox.net (sbraunwd at cox.net) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 11:44:17 -0700 Subject: From Sue Braunwald Re: Pronoun errors in gender in early normal development. Message-ID: The Braunwald-Max Planck Corpus contains some early errors beginning at about 22-23 months of age. The data in CHILDES do not contain my context notes so I am sending this example from the original diary data. I have not specifically analyzed the data for this purpose, but this example illustrates one normal child's early confusion. As the example illustrates, there are two steps in the process. The first step is to learn the difference in gender between the referents of the nouns boy and girl. The second and concurrently emerging step is to figure out how the difference in the gender of a referent relates to the system of English pronouns. Laura, 01;10.26 is watching the family's male cat, Peanuts, climbing a screen to a patio door. I am with her. The following is my complete diary entry. L: He bad girl. M: He's a bad boy. M: Or she's a bad girl. (laughing) L: She bad boy. She [L] has great confusion now with 3rd person singular. She uses he for it as subject and he or she interchangeably. She uses it correctly as object, however. (J4-71 #317) This example of a pronoun gender error comes from a month during which Laura is more generally very confused about how to use English pronouns. From a longitudinal and developmental perspective, these errors appear to be part of a larger problem involving how pronouns work. Laura is also having trouble with first person singular pronouns. Laura, 01;10.18, "Great 1st person pronoun confusion. She uses predominately My but also an occasional I and Me. The rule--if there is one--however must be My + verb or + adjective. This my is beginning to generalize to verbs with which she used I so that I'm hearing 'My have/I have, My get/I get.' But she is clearly confused which suggests learning. The reason I think that she must use a rule is that she doesn't imitate the immediately preceding model (e.g., M: I'm pooped. L: My pooped too.)." J4-60 #217 It is important to note that these examples come from a toddler. Sue Braunwald -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From bpearson at research.umass.edu Sun Jun 17 19:38:13 2012 From: bpearson at research.umass.edu (Barbara Pearson) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:38:13 -0400 Subject: another gender anecdote In-Reply-To: <20120617144417.2PI9D.96784.imail@fed1rmwml303> Message-ID: Dear All, Since we're sharing anecdotes, here is one from Tom Roeper's book Prism of Grammar . Roeper is recounting a story from Patrick Griffiths, so this is now 3rd-hand--but it, too, contributes to answering Laura's original question with, "yes, typically-developing children make theses errors and no, there doesn't seem to be much systematic work on it yet." (p. 64) "PG has reported meeting a boy who called everyone he. To probe the boy's grammar further, he put out a male doll and a female doll and asked the boy to point to "she", which he obligingly did, (pointing to the female doll). Then Patrick .. pointed to the boy's mother and asked, "How about your mother?" --to which the boy confidently replied, "He's she." TR also points out that there are children who label everyone "she." Sounds like there's a study in there for someone. Cheers, Barbara On Jun 17, 2012, at 2:44 PM, wrote: > The Braunwald-Max Planck Corpus contains some early errors beginning at about 22-23 months of age. The data in CHILDES do not contain my context notes so I am sending this example from the original diary data. I have not specifically analyzed the data for this purpose, but this example illustrates one normal child's early confusion. As the example illustrates, there are two steps in the process. The first step is to learn the difference in gender between the referents of the nouns boy and girl. The second and concurrently emerging step is to figure out how the difference in the gender of a referent relates to the system of English pronouns. > > Laura, 01;10.26 is watching the family's male cat, Peanuts, climbing a screen to a patio door. I am with her. The following is my complete diary entry. > L: He bad girl. > M: He's a bad boy. > M: Or she's a bad girl. (laughing) > L: She bad boy. > She [L] has great confusion now with 3rd person singular. She uses he for it as subject and he or she interchangeably. She uses it correctly as object, however. (J4-71 #317) > > This example of a pronoun gender error comes from a month during which Laura is more generally very confused about how to use English pronouns. From a longitudinal and developmental perspective, these errors appear to be part of a larger problem involving how pronouns work. Laura is also having trouble with first person singular pronouns. > > Laura, 01;10.18, "Great 1st person pronoun confusion. She uses predominately My but also an occasional I and Me. The rule--if there is one--however must be My + verb or + adjective. This my is beginning to generalize to verbs with which she used I so that I'm hearing 'My have/I have, My get/I get.' But she is clearly confused which suggests learning. The reason I think that she must use a rule is that she doesn't imitate the immediately preceding model (e.g., M: I'm pooped. L: My pooped too.)." J4-60 #217 > > It is important to note that these examples come from a toddler. Sue Braunwald > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > ************************************************ Barbara Zurer Pearson, Ph.D. Research Associate, Depts of Linguistics and Communication Disorders c/o 226 South College University of Massachusetts Amherst Amherst MA 01003 bpearson at research.umass.edu http://www.umass.edu/aae/bp_indexold.htm http://www.zurer.com/pearson -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From csilva at usc.edu Mon Jun 18 16:35:06 2012 From: csilva at usc.edu (Silva-corvalan, Carmen: USC) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:35:06 -0700 Subject: pronoun errors of gender In-Reply-To: <000901cd4c07$6791c1a0$36b544e0$@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: The following is an excerpt from a chapter on subject realization in English and Spanish by two normally developing bilinguals (upcoming book is *Bilingual Language Acquisition: Spanish and English in the first six years. CUP).* These children did not make any gender errors, but they started using 3 person pronouns well into their 3rd year. Sensitivity to gender may have been helped by contact with Spanish, which marks gender on "everything". They both made the typical errors with 'me' as subject, though not frequently. I have only one example with "her" as subject, from Nico, who is an early acquirer and quite proficient in both languages. Notice mom's model and child correction: Mom: Where’s she going? [a cousin] N: [her's leaving] *2;1.25* Mom: Where’s she going? N: [Thrifty, she wants to buy stuff, shave for tío Fernando] "In English, Nico starts using pronouns at 1;8.2 in the utterance *I get it*(playing with a ball with an adult). The 94 overt pronouns in his English include: *I* (64 cases); *it* in the item *it’s* (21 cases); *you* (1 in the routine *How are you?*, and 6 in the frame *What (are) you V-ing?*); and 2 cases of *he*. These alternate with 8 unexpressed pronouns: *I* (4), * it* (3), and *you* (1). Only three different frames for the use of *I* are recorded in Nico’s data throughout the 20th month: *I get it*, *I don’t like it*, and *I want X*. Bren starts using the first singular pronoun *I*at 1;10. This is the only pronoun he uses during the early age period: 11 examples in the frame *I want (it) X*, 3 cases of *I did it*, and 1 in the routine *I coming!* (with a null auxiliary). Of the 10 cases of null subject in Bren’s English only one is in the context of a second person singular; all other null subjects correspond to *I *with a missing auxiliary (e.g., *No like it*, *All done*). Shared knowledge with the surrounding adults, and the physical and discourse context make up for the children's initial stage of subject omission." I do not have further dates for English pronouns. For what may be worth, here's information about the Spanish pronouns: AGE Pros (first appearance) 1;11 yo 2;3 tú 2;4 él (1 token) 2;6-2;11: several tú and él NO other pronouns. FOR NICO: 2;3: yo 2;4: tú, él 2;5-2;11: several tú and él 2;9: nosotros (1 token) "Ella" 'she' does not appear. The boys don't have a sister and they refer to mom and other females by name. Carmen Silva-Corvalán On Saturday, June 16, 2012 2:31:34 PM UTC-7, Snow, Laura wrote: > Dear all, > > > > I’m trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse “he” and “she”), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, “He has it”) > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., > “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I’m mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > On Saturday, June 16, 2012 2:31:34 PM UTC-7, Snow, Laura wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I’m trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse “he” and “she”), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, “He has it”) > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., > “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I’m mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/info-childes/-/WyZpLL65Xq8J. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eisenbergsl at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 17:05:22 2012 From: eisenbergsl at gmail.com (Sarita Eisenberg) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:05:22 -0700 Subject: pronoun errors of gender In-Reply-To: <4B14808C-B62E-40CC-8476-FA7787914761@gmail.com> Message-ID: Laura We looked at errors produced by 3-year-olds with typical language on a picture description task and did find gender errors. The reference is: Eisenberg, S., Guo, L., & Germezi, M., How grammatical are three-year-olds? Language, Speech, and Hearing Services in Schools, 43, 36-52, January 2012. Sarita Eisenberg On Saturday, June 16, 2012 6:31:22 PM UTC-4, Esther wrote: > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that children > mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when they are in > the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead of "elle" or > the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no more fillers, > there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to two > different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la mange" > (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead of "IL > la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and object and > semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the time > that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when they > are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only have > spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only make > qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I myself > continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data session > when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe under > the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure I've > heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of different > factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of referents, > prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which influence certain > automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd or > 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. There > is more literature on that, especially in English and it might inspire you, > but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 à 23:31, Laura Snow a écrit : > > Dear all, > > I’m trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse “he” and “she”), and if so, > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, “He has it”) > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., > “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I’m mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would > also be useful! > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > University of Washington > Center on Human Development and Disability > Seattle, WA > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/info-childes/-/vKJ-yQiFfI8J. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From csilva at usc.edu Mon Jun 18 17:58:02 2012 From: csilva at usc.edu (Silva-corvalan, Carmen: USC) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:58:02 -0700 Subject: Digest for info-childes@googlegroups.com - 3 Messages in 2 Topics In-Reply-To: <22F47EF9-0420-4B82-879E-F27B78145A52@colorado.edu> Message-ID: Dear all: The following is an excerpt from a chapter on subject realization in English and Spanish by two normally developing bilinguals (upcoming book is *Bilingual Language Acquisition: Spanish and English in the first six years. CUP).* These children did not make any gender errors, but they started using 3 person pronouns well into their 3rd year. Sensitivity to gender may have been helped by contact with Spanish, which marks gender on "everything". They both made the typical errors with 'me' as subject, though not frequently. I have only one example with "her" as subject, from Nico, who is an early acquirer and quite proficient in both languages. Notice mom's model and child correction: Mom: Where’s she going? [a cousin] N: [her's leaving] *2;1.25* Mom: Where’s she going? N: [Thrifty, she wants to buy stuff, shave for tío Fernando] "In English, Nico starts using pronouns at 1;8.2 in the utterance *I get it*(playing with a ball with an adult). The 94 overt pronouns in his English include: *I* (64 cases); *it* in the item *it’s* (21 cases); *you* (1 in the routine *How are you?*, and 6 in the frame *What (are) you V-ing?*); and 2 cases of *he*. These alternate with 8 unexpressed pronouns: *I* (4), * it* (3), and *you* (1). Only three different frames for the use of *I*are recorded in Nico’s data throughout the 20th month: *I get it*, *I don’t like it*, and *I want X*. Bren starts using the first singular pronoun *I*at 1;10. This is the only pronoun he uses during the early age period: 11 examples in the frame *I want (it) X*, 3 cases of *I did it*, and 1 in the routine *I coming!* (with a null auxiliary). Of the 10 cases of null subject in Bren’s English only one is in the context of a second person singular; all other null subjects correspond to *I *with a missing auxiliary (e.g., *No like it*, *All done*). Shared knowledge with the surrounding adults, and the physical and discourse context make up for the children's initial stage of subject omission." I have not yet listed further dates for English pronouns. For what may be worth, here's information about the Spanish pronouns: AGE Pros (first appearance) 1;11 yo 2;3 tú 2;4 él (1 token) 2;6-2;11: several tú and él NO other pronouns. FOR NICO: 2;3: yo 2;4: tú, él 2;5-2;11: several tú and él 2;9: nosotros (1 token) "Ella" 'she' does not appear. The boys don't have a sister and they refer to mom and other females by name. Carmen Silva-Corvalán On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 à 23:31, Laura Snow a écrit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 à 23:31, Laura Snow a écrit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 à 23:31, Laura Snow a écrit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 à 23:31, Laura Snow a écrit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 à 23:31, Laura Snow a écrit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., “her have it”). I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I’m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 à 23:31, Laura Snow a écrit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/info-childes/-/KML7yEEl3_AJ. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From csilva at usc.edu Mon Jun 18 17:55:42 2012 From: csilva at usc.edu (Carmen Silva-Corvalan) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:55:42 -0700 Subject: About pronoun gender errors Message-ID: Dear all: The following is an excerpt from a chapter on subject realization in English and Spanish by two normally developing bilinguals (Nico and Bren) (upcoming book is Bilingual Language Acquisition: Spanish and English in the first six years. CUP). These children did not make any gender errors, but they started using 3 person pronouns well into their 3rd year. Sensitivity to gender may have been helped by contact with Spanish, which marks gender on "everything". They both made the typical errors with 'me' as subject, though not frequently. I have only one example with "her" as subject, from Nico, who is an early acquirer and quite proficient in both languages. Notice mom's model and child's correction: Mom: Where’s she going? [a cousin] N: [her's leaving] 2;1.25 Mom: Where’s she going? [rising intonation] N: [Thrifty, she wants to buy stuff, shave for tío Nanno] "In English, Nico starts using pronouns at 1;8.2 in the utterance I get it (playing with a ball with an adult). The 94 overt pronouns in his English include: I (64 cases); it in the item it’s (21 cases); you (1 in the routine How are you?, and 6 in the frame What (are) you V-ing?); and 2 cases of he. These alternate with 8 unexpressed pronouns: I (4), it (3), and you (1). Only three different frames for the use of Iare recorded in Nico’s data throughout the 20th month: I get it, I don’t like it, and I want X. Bren starts using the first singular pronoun I at 1;10. This is the only pronoun he uses during the early age period: 11 examples in the frame I want (it) X, 3 cases of I did it, and 1 in the routine I coming! (with a null auxiliary). Of the 10 cases of null subject in Bren’s English only one is in the context of a second person singular; all other null subjects correspond to I with a missing auxiliary (e.g., No like it, All done). Shared knowledge with the surrounding adults, and the physical and discourse context make up for the children's initial stage of subject omission." I have not yet listed further dates for English pronouns. For what may be worth, here's information about the Spanish pronouns: AGE Pros (first appearance) BREN 1;11 yo 2;3 tú 2;4 él (1 token) 2;6-2;11: several tú and él NO other pronouns. FOR NICO: 2;3: yo 2;4: tú, él 2;5-2;11: several tú and él 2;9: nosotros (1 token) "Ella" 'she' does not appear to age 2;10. The boys don't have a sister and they refer to mom and other females by name. Carmen Silva-Corvalán __________________________________ Professor University of Southern California -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From karen.pollock at ualberta.ca Mon Jun 18 19:56:39 2012 From: karen.pollock at ualberta.ca (Karen Pollock) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:56:39 -0600 Subject: pronoun gender errors Message-ID: I have many examples of pronoun gender errors from my son at approx 33 mos. He seemed to have pronoun case sorted out, but often confused 3rd person female, male, and neutral pronouns. Here are some examples: *He*'s getting more food too. (referring to a female grad student) No, that's not your shirt, it's *hers*. (referring to his dad) I got *her* shirt wet. (referring to Ernie's shirt) It did it by *herself*. (when I asked how the toy train track came apart) I wanna go with *her*, mama. (referring to his dad) And *he* was one too. (referring to me, his mother) Michael wants to drive by *herself*. (referring to himself) (he later said "I wanna do it by *youself*.") *He* said yes. (referring to me, his mother) That's *his* track. (referring to the train) I want to see *it* too. (referring to a female babysitter) *He* put *her* nose in it. (referring to a pet duck - gender unknown - drinking water) I can attest that he had contrastive use of the fricatives (h/s/sh) at this age, so I don't think his errors at this time had a phonological basis. In part he may have been simply confused as to the actual gender of people/animals. I probed to see if he could identify friends & family members as "boys" or "girls." He was pretty accurate with children (with the exception of one tomboyish girl friend that he consistently said was a "boy"), but pretty random with adults - maybe he didn't think of them as "boys/girls" but as "mommies/daddies" or "men/women." I also probed his use of he/she with different people's names, using the frame "Where is *(Scooter, Miss Deborah, Candace, ...)*? *(He/She's)* at home/school/work/etc)." He used "he" all of the time males but also used "he" 60% of the time with females. Some females (interestingly, most with short hair) were consistently "he" while others alternated between "he" and "she." Another possibility is that from 12- 30 mos he spent 2 days/wk with a Mandarin-speaking nanny. Although it never appeared that much Mandarin was learned (he taught her more English than she taught him Chinese), it's possible that the lack of a gender contrast in 3rd person pronouns in Mandarin contributed to his confusion in English. These gender errors didn't last too long - a few months maybe. At 19 (almost 20 now) he has no problem correctly identifying gender [?] Karen Pollock > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 330.gif Type: image/gif Size: 96 bytes Desc: not available URL: From macw at cmu.edu Fri Jun 22 21:25:59 2012 From: macw at cmu.edu (Brian MacWhinney) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:25:59 -0400 Subject: childes.talkbank.org Message-ID: Dear Info-CHILDES, In order to more accurately reflect the relation between the CHILDES and TalkBank Projects, we have added the hostname childes.talkbank.org to the Internet DNS tables. The old name of childes.psy.cmu.edu will continue to work. However, in future communications and links, we will refer to the CHILDES host machine as childes.talkbank.org. This hostname change is intended to underscore the ways in which CHILDES, AphasiaBank, PhonBank, TBIBank, DementiaBank, and similar projects are sub-components of the overall TalkBank system. Best regards, -- Brian MacWhinney -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From nratner at umd.edu Sat Jun 23 14:24:33 2012 From: nratner at umd.edu (Nan Bernstein Ratner) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:24:33 -0400 Subject: Use of CHILDES samples in teaching child language disorders? Message-ID: Due to some staffing changes in my Department, I will be teaching a graduate speech-language pathology course in child language disorders this coming fall for the first time in ages. I am interested in knowing if anyone on the list has developed any class activities/assignments that use any of the corpora from children with language disorders? If you want to correspond with me directly, I will collect answers and post them back to the list. Best regards to all, Nan Ratner -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ageambasu at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 13:42:16 2012 From: ageambasu at gmail.com (ageambasu at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:42:16 +0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Ben.Ambridge at liverpool.ac.uk Fri Jun 1 15:02:54 2012 From: Ben.Ambridge at liverpool.ac.uk (Ambridge, Ben) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2012 15:02:54 +0000 Subject: Postdoctoral Research Associate in Computational Modeling Message-ID: Dear colleagues I would be grateful if you could circulate the attached job advertisement ==================================================== http://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/AEO142/postdoctoral-research-associate/ ==================================================== Postdoctoral Research Associate Computational Modeling: Child Language Acquisition University of Liverpool Faculty of Health and Life Sciences Institute Of Psychology, Health and Society ?31,020 pa You will join a child language modeling project, led by Dr Franklin Chang. The project will involve the development of a connectionist model of syntax acquisition that will be fit to range of acquisition phenomena (e.g., grammaticality judgments, preferential looking, elicited production). You will be responsible for programming and analysing a neural network of syntax acquisition. You should have a PhD in psychology, computer science or a closely related field and have experience programming (C++, Java, statistical packages such as R) and an interest in connectionist models and syntactic development. The post is available for 2 years, commencing 1 October 2012. Job Ref: R-577723 Closing Date: 1 August 2012 For full details, or to request an application pack, please APPLY ONLINE below, or e-mail jobs at liv.ac.uk, please quote Job Ref in all enquiries -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From jean.berko.gleason at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 07:51:25 2012 From: jean.berko.gleason at gmail.com (Jean Berko Gleason) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 03:51:25 -0400 Subject: Amazon.com: Development of Language, The (8th Edition) (9780132612388): Jean Berko Gleason, Nan Bernstein Ratner: Books Message-ID: Hi everyone Here's Amazon's new ad for the 8th edition of our book! Jean -- http://www.amazon.com/Development-Language-The-8th-Edition/dp/0132612380/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1338621461&sr=1-1#productPromotionscaro -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edy.veneziano at paris5.sorbonne.fr Sat Jun 2 09:47:26 2012 From: edy.veneziano at paris5.sorbonne.fr (edy veneziano) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 11:47:26 +0200 Subject: Announcement for LIA - A Journal on Language Acquisition Message-ID: We are pleased to announce that LIA, a new Journal on Language acquisition (see below), can publish, as of this month, both special issues and independent papers in non-thematic issues. LIA Language, Interaction & Acquisition Langage, Interaction & Acquisition New journal on language acquisition Aims and scope of LIA LIA is a bilingual English-French journal that publishes original theoretical and empirical research of high scientific quality at the forefront of current debates concerning language acquisition. It covers all facets of language acquisition among different types of learners and in diverse learning situations, with particular attention to oral language and/or to signed languages. Topics include the acquisition of one or more foreign languages, of one or more first languages, and of sign languages, as well as learners? use of gestures during speech; the relationship between language and cognition during acquisition; bilingualism and situations of language contact, for example pidginisation and creolisation. It also welcomes contributions about language impairments, however with emphasis on oral language. LIA offers a unique space to cover all of these topics and their interrelations in an interdisciplinary perspective(linguistics, psycholinguistics, sociolinguistics). The bilingual nature of LIA aims at reaching a readership in a wide international community,while simultaneously continuing to attract intellectual and linguistic resources stemming from multiple scientific traditions in Europe, thereby remaining faithful to its original French anchoring. LIA is the direct descendant of the French-speaking journal AILE. It first appeared in 2009 under the transition name AILE...LIA and is published by John Benjamins since 2010. Website of LIA: http://www.benjamins.com/cgi-bin/t_seriesview.cgi?series=LIA Link for submissions : http://www.editorialmanager.com/lia. LIA appears twice a year. From 2012 on, it publishes not only special issues around particular topics, but also independent articles in non thematic issues. Articles must be written in French or in English and must provide abstracts in both languages. All articles are evaluated by at least two reviewers in a two-way blind procedure. Until the end of 2014, 50 copies of each issue of LIA are available at promotional prices (15?;10? for students). Orders should be sent to the following address: lia at sfl.cnrs.fr. Editor-in-Chief: Maya HICKMANN Associate Editors: Dominique BASSANO, Sandra BENAZZO, Marion BLONDEL, Marianne GULLBERG, Daniel V?RONIQUE. Summary of LIA Publications 2009-2011 2009 ? AILE...LIA 1 (double issue) S. Benazzo (ed.) At the crossroads of different types of acquisition: why compare and how? Au croisement de diff?rents types d?acquisition : pourquoi et comment comparer ? 2009 ? AILE...LIA 2 J-Y. Dommergues (ed.) Phonology, bilingualism and second language acquisition Phonologie, bilinguisme & acquisition des langues secondes 2010 - LIA 1:1 M.-A. Sallandre & M. Blondel (eds.) Acquiring sign language as a first language Acquisition d?une langue des signes comme langue premi?re 2010 - LIA 1:2 D. V?ronique (ed.) The processing of input in second language acquisition Le traitement de l?input dans l?acquisition des langues ?trang?res 2011 - LIA 2:1 D. Bassano & M. Hickmann (eds.) Grammaticalization and language acquisition: Nouns and verbs across languages Grammaticalisation et acquisition du langage : noms et verbes ? travers les langues 2011 - LIA 2:2 M. Schmid & B. K?pke (eds.) First language attrition L?attrition de la langue premi?re 2012 - LIA 3:1 C. Linqvist & C. Bardel (eds.) The acquisition of French as a second language: New developmental perspectives / L?acquisition du fran?ais langue seconde : nouvelles perspectives d?veloppementales For more details and tables of contents: http://www.benjamins.com/cgi-bin/t_seriesview.cgi?series=LIA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adelepro at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 15:48:47 2012 From: adelepro at gmail.com (Adele Proctor) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2012 10:48:47 -0500 Subject: Announcement for LIA - A Journal on Language Acquisition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is very exciting!!! Merci, Adele P. On Sat, Jun 2, 2012 at 4:47 AM, edy veneziano < edy.veneziano at paris5.sorbonne.fr> wrote: > We are pleased to announce that LIA, a new Journal on Language acquisition > (see below), can publish, as of this month, both special issues and > independent papers in non-thematic issues. > > > * LIA* > *Language, Interaction & Acquisition > Langage, Interaction & Acquisition * > *New journal on language acquisition* > > *Aims and scope of LIA > *LIA is a bilingual English-French journal that publishes original > theoretical and empirical research of high scientific quality at the > forefront of current debates concerning language acquisition. It covers all > facets of language acquisition among different types of learners and > in diverse learning situations, with particular attention to oral language > and/or to signed languages. Topics include the acquisition of one or more > foreign languages, of one or more first languages, and of sign languages, > as well as learners? use of gestures during speech; the relationship > between language and cognition during acquisition; bilingualism and > situations of language contact, for example pidginisation and creolisation. > It also welcomes contributions about language impairments, however with > emphasis on oral language. LIA offers a unique space to cover all of these > topics and their interrelations in an interdisciplinary > perspective(linguistics, psycholinguistics, sociolinguistics). > > The bilingual nature of LIA aims at reaching a readership in a wide > international community,while simultaneously continuing to > attract intellectual and linguistic resources stemming from multiple > scientific traditions in Europe, thereby remaining faithful to its original > French anchoring. LIA is the direct descendant of the French-speaking > journal AILE. It first appeared in 2009 under the > transition name AILE...LIA and is published by John Benjamins since 2010. > > Website of LIA: > http://www.benjamins.com/cgi-bin/t_seriesview.cgi?series=LIA > Link for submissions : http://www.editorialmanager.com/lia. > > LIA appears twice a year. From 2012 on, it publishes not only special > issues around particular topics, but also independent articles in > non thematic issues. Articles must be written in French or in English and > must provide abstracts in both languages. All articles are evaluated by at > least two reviewers in a two-way blind procedure. > > Until the end of 2014, 50 copies of each issue of LIA are available at > promotional prices (15?;10? for students). Orders should be sent to the > following address: lia at sfl.cnrs.fr. > > Editor-in-Chief: Maya HICKMANN > Associate Editors: Dominique BASSANO, Sandra BENAZZO, Marion BLONDEL, > Marianne GULLBERG, Daniel V?RONIQUE. > > > > *Summary of LIA Publications 2009-2011 > **2009 ? AILE...LIA 1* (double issue) > S. Benazzo (ed.) > At the crossroads of different types of acquisition: why compare and how? > Au croisement de diff?rents types d?acquisition : pourquoi et > comment comparer ? > > *2009 ? AILE...LIA 2* > J-Y. Dommergues (ed.) > Phonology, bilingualism and second language acquisition > Phonologie, bilinguisme & acquisition des langues secondes > > *2010 - LIA 1:1* > M.-A. Sallandre & M. Blondel (eds.) > Acquiring sign language as a first language > Acquisition d?une langue des signes comme langue premi?re > > *2010 - LIA 1:2* > D. V?ronique (ed.) > The processing of input in second language acquisition > Le traitement de l?input dans l?acquisition des langues ?trang?res > > *2011 - LIA 2:1* > D. Bassano & M. Hickmann (eds.) > Grammaticalization and language acquisition: Nouns and verbs > across languages > Grammaticalisation et acquisition du langage : noms et verbes ? > travers les langues > > *2011 - LIA 2:2* > M. Schmid & B. K?pke (eds.) > First language attrition > L?attrition de la langue premi?re > > *2012 - LIA 3:1 > *C. Linqvist & C. Bardel (eds.) > The acquisition of French as a second language: New > developmental perspectives / > L?acquisition du fran?ais langue seconde : nouvelles > perspectives d?veloppementales > > For more details and tables of contents: > http://www.benjamins.com/cgi-bin/t_seriesview.cgi?series=LIA > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zhangjing19880202 at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 02:56:13 2012 From: zhangjing19880202 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?6Z2ZIOW8oA==?=) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:56:13 -0700 Subject: Can we run MLU function in Chinese? Message-ID: Hi, Is there anyone that how to run MLU in Chinese? I am not sure whether it can distinguish Chinese morphine in CLAN. Looking forward a reply. Thank you so much! Have a nice day! ZJ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From millieaine at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 02:50:37 2012 From: millieaine at hotmail.com (Amelia Manolescu) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:50:37 -0700 Subject: PsyScope Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone know if there is any way of using PsyScope on a PC rather than on a Mac? Thanks -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From macw at cmu.edu Wed Jun 6 07:38:45 2012 From: macw at cmu.edu (Brian MacWhinney) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 09:38:45 +0200 Subject: Can we run MLU function in Chinese? In-Reply-To: <9217f8f7-dba5-46df-888a-a182a6b3cde8@h10g2000pbi.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Dear ZJ, This is really a question for the chibolts at googlegroups.com list. However, the answer is simple. As long as you add spaces to Chinese, MLU and the various other aspects of CLAN will work fine. The decisions about where to add spaces are based on principles that are pretty much integrated into MOR. If you have further questions, please post to chibolts at googlegroups.com -- Brian MacWhinney On Jun 6, 2012, at 4:56 AM, ? ? wrote: > Hi, > Is there anyone that how to run MLU in Chinese? I am not sure whether > it can distinguish Chinese morphine in CLAN. > Looking forward a reply. > Thank you so much! > Have a nice day! > ZJ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From zhangjing19880202 at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 07:52:59 2012 From: zhangjing19880202 at gmail.com (Sherry Zhang) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 15:52:59 +0800 Subject: Can we run MLU function in Chinese? In-Reply-To: <54A413BF-60DF-41D6-B786-58B242ACC7D2@cmu.edu> Message-ID: Dear Brian MacWhinney, Thank you so much for your reply. I added spaces in Chinese. And I tried other aspects of CLAN. They can work fine. However, MLU can't work. Do I need to do anything else to run MLU calculate? Again, Thank you so much! Bests, ZJ On 6 Jun, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Brian MacWhinney wrote: > Dear ZJ, > This is really a question for the chibolts at googlegroups.com list. However, the answer is simple. As long as you add spaces to Chinese, MLU and the various other aspects of CLAN will work fine. The decisions about where to add spaces are based on principles that are pretty much integrated into MOR. If you have further questions, please post to chibolts at googlegroups.com > > -- Brian MacWhinney > > On Jun 6, 2012, at 4:56 AM, ? ? wrote: > >> Hi, >> Is there anyone that how to run MLU in Chinese? I am not sure whether >> it can distinguish Chinese morphine in CLAN. >> Looking forward a reply. >> Thank you so much! >> Have a nice day! >> ZJ >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. >> To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From spektor at andrew.cmu.edu Wed Jun 6 14:04:02 2012 From: spektor at andrew.cmu.edu (Leonid Spektor) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 10:04:02 -0400 Subject: Can we run MLU function in Chinese? In-Reply-To: <979F35F3-15B7-4C32-B0C8-19D93B0A4359@gmail.com> Message-ID: I will post answer to this email where is belongs on chibolts at googlegroups.com. Leonid. On Jun 6, 2012, at 03:52 , Sherry Zhang wrote: > Dear Brian MacWhinney, > > Thank you so much for your reply. > > I added spaces in Chinese. And I tried other aspects of CLAN. They can work fine. However, MLU can't work. > > Do I need to do anything else to run MLU calculate? > > Again, Thank you so much! > > Bests, > > ZJ > On 6 Jun, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Brian MacWhinney wrote: > >> Dear ZJ, >> This is really a question for the chibolts at googlegroups.com list. However, the answer is simple. As long as you add spaces to Chinese, MLU and the various other aspects of CLAN will work fine. The decisions about where to add spaces are based on principles that are pretty much integrated into MOR. If you have further questions, please post to chibolts at googlegroups.com >> >> -- Brian MacWhinney >> >> On Jun 6, 2012, at 4:56 AM, ? ? wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> Is there anyone that how to run MLU in Chinese? I am not sure whether >>> it can distinguish Chinese morphine in CLAN. >>> Looking forward a reply. >>> Thank you so much! >>> Have a nice day! >>> ZJ >>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From mbecker at email.unc.edu Wed Jun 6 17:15:40 2012 From: mbecker at email.unc.edu (Becker, Misha K) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 17:15:40 +0000 Subject: transitive verbs and 8-year-olds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A colleague of mine is looking for a list of unambiguously transitive verbs that would be known by 8-year-old (American) English-speakers. Does anyone know where I/he could find such a list? Thanks in advance, Misha -- Misha Becker Associate Professor UNC Linguistics Department 301 Smith Building, CB#3155 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3155 mbecker at email.unc.edu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From Roberta at udel.edu Wed Jun 6 17:19:58 2012 From: Roberta at udel.edu (Roberta Golinkoff) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 13:19:58 -0400 Subject: transitive verbs and 8-year-olds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Look at paper by Masterson et al. in Journal of Child Language for a start with younger kids in case you can't find a list for older kids: Masterson, J., Druks, J., & Gallienne, D. (2008). Object and action picture naming in 3- to 5-year-old children. Journal of Child Language, 35, 373-402. Best Roberta On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Becker, Misha K wrote: > A colleague of mine is looking for a list of unambiguously transitive > verbs that would be known by 8-year-old (American) English-speakers. Does > anyone know where I/he could find such a list? > > Thanks in advance, > Misha > -- > > Misha Becker > Associate Professor > UNC Linguistics Department > 301 Smith Building, CB#3155 > Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3155 > mbecker at email.unc.edu > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > -- Roberta Michnick Golinkoff, Ph. D. H. Rodney Sharp Professor School of Education and Departments of Psychology and Linguistics and Cognitive Science University of Delaware, Newark, DE 19716 Office: 302-831-1634; Fax: 302-831-4110 Web page: http://udel.edu/~roberta/ Author of "A Mandate for Playful Learning in Preschool: Presenting the Evidence" (Oxford) http://www.mandateforplayfullearning.com/ Please check out our doctoral program at http://www.udel.edu/education/graduate/index.html The late Mary Dunn said, "Life is the time we have to learn." -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From smilingfla at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 16:21:00 2012 From: smilingfla at gmail.com (Flavia Adani) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2012 18:21:00 +0200 Subject: Call for abstracts: DGfS workshop: Specific conditions in language acquisition (deadline August 15th, 2012) Message-ID: We are accepting submissions for the following DGfS workshop, which will be held at the University of Potsdam on March 12-15, 2013, as part of the DGfS annual conference. Topic: The investigation of early language acquisition and its development under specific conditions has proven to be a powerful tool to learn more about the system of different languages and their acquisition mechanisms. Several studies have addressed the question of how children acquire one or more languages under specific conditions, such as developmental disorders, sensory disabilities, or different ages of onset in L2-acquisition. This line of comparative research (cross-population and/or cross-linguistic) is able to uncover subtle aspects of the language acquisition process that only emerge under some specific conditions and it also helps in providing a finer-grained characterization of language disorders. The papers in this workshop will focus on three topics: i) the comparison between different populations and different languages as a way to characterize the language acquisition process under specific conditions; ii) the distinction between ?typical? and ?atypical? language development and the discussion of different explanations for the latter (such as an impairment of the linguistic system or a performance deficit) and their potential interplay; and iii) the contribution of experimental data to inform the representation of grammar under specific conditions and vice versa. The workshop gives an opportunity to address also methodological questions, e.g. the factors that need to be controlled when discussing different groups and the criteria of matching in order to draw meaningful comparisons (e.g. matching based on age, length of exposure, or linguistic abilities). Towards this end, the workshop aims to bring together recent studies that examine two or more groups acquiring one language under different specific conditions or cross-linguistic research on children acquiring different languages under the same specific condition, namely: children with Specific Language Impairment (SLI), children with hearing impairment, L2-learners with different ages of onset and children with Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD). The research will include the acquisition of different aspects of language, such as phonetics/phonology, inflectional morphology, and syntax. Please send a one-page abstract (one anonymous version and one version with the authors' names and affiliations) by e-mail to Flavia Adani (e-mail: adani (at) uni-potsdam.de), Johannes Hennies (e-mail: johannes (at) hennies.org) and Eva Wimmer (e-Mail: eva.wimmer (at) uni-koeln.de) by August 15th, 2012. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From jo.vanherwegen at googlemail.com Wed Jun 13 10:42:34 2012 From: jo.vanherwegen at googlemail.com (Jo Van Herwegen) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 11:42:34 +0100 Subject: Final reminder: neurodevelopmental disorders seminar series Message-ID: Dear all, We still have some spaces left for the first seminar in the neurodevelopmental disorders seminar series. This seminar will take place on Friday 29/06/2012 and will discuss co-morbidity, variability and sub-groups with neurodevelopmental disorders at Kingston University (20 minutes from central London on public transport). This workshop is part of a seminar series which explores recent findings in neurodevelopmental disorders, with a particular focus on 1) the new research tools and methods used, 2) discussion of the wider applicability of these new tools and methods across different neurodevelopmental disorders, 3) identifying future challenges or controversies when studying neurodevelopmental disorders using a developmental approach. This seminar series hopes to bring together specialists and established researchers as well as post-graduates, post-doctoral researchers and early career researchers in neurodevelopmental disorders. This series is sponsored by the BPS and Williams syndrome Foundation UK. More information about the seminar series and organising committee can be obtained from http://www.neurodevelopmentaldisorders-seminarseries.co.uk/ Final registration deadline Monday 25/06/2012 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From t.marinis at reading.ac.uk Wed Jun 13 20:57:18 2012 From: t.marinis at reading.ac.uk (Theodoros Marinis) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2012 20:57:18 +0000 Subject: Job openings in multilingual language learning/acquisition and/or literacy, University of Reading, UK In-Reply-To: <6A830A93D7D88F47A982868BF3F5264C1E266031@vime-mbx1.rdg.ac.uk> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guidetti at univ-tlse2.fr Thu Jun 14 13:37:53 2012 From: guidetti at univ-tlse2.fr (=?UTF-8?Q?Guidetti_Mich=C3=A8le?=) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 15:37:53 +0200 Subject: Book announcement : Gesture and Multimodal development Message-ID: Gesture and Multimodal Development Edited by Jean-Marc Colletta and Mich?le Guidetti Universit? Stendhal - Grenoble 3 / Universit? Toulouse 2 We gesture while we talk and children use gestures prior to words to communicate during the first year. Later, as words become the preferred form of communication, children continue to gesture to reinforce or extend the spoken messages or even to replace them. This volume, originally published as a Special Issue of Gesture 10:2/3 (2010), brings together studies from language acquisition and developmental psychology. It provides a review of common theoretical, methodological and empirical themes, and the contributions address topics such as gesture use in prelinguistic infants with a special and new focus on pointing, the relationship between gestures and lexical development in typically developing and deaf children and even how gesture can help to learn mathematics. All in all, it brings additional evidence on how gestures are related to language, communication and mind development. [Benjamins Current Topics, 39] 2012. xii, 223 pp. http://benjamins.com/#catalog/books/bct.39/main Table of contents About the authors Introduction Gesture and multimodal development Mich?le Guidetti and Jean-Marc Colletta Articles Pointing gesture in young children: Hand preference and language development H?l?ne Cochet and Jacques Vauclair Support or competition? Dynamic development of the relationship between manual pointing and symbolic gestures from 6 to 18 months of age Claire D. Vallotton >From gesture to sign and from gesture to word: Pointing in deaf and hearing children Aliyah Morgenstern, St?phanie Ca?t, Marie Collombel-Leroy, Fanny Limousin and Marion Blondel How the hands control attention during early word learning Nancy de Villiers Rader and Patricia Zukow-Goldring Infant movement as a window into language processing Laurel Fais, Julia Leibowich, Ladan Hamadani and Lana Ohira Children?s lexical skills and task demands affect gestural behavior in mothers of late-talking children and children with typical language development Angela Grimminger, Katharina J. Rohlfing and Prisca Stenneken The type of shared activity shapes caregiver and infant communication Daniel Puccini, Mireille Hassemer, Doroth? Salomo and Ulf Liszkowski Transcribing and annotating multimodality: How deaf children?s productions call into the question the analytical tools Agn?s Millet and Isabelle Est?ve Mathematical learning and gesture: Character viewpoint and observer viewpoint in students? gestured graphs of functions Susan Gerofsky ?This collection of papers presents a wonderful and vast overview of contemporary research on gesture and multimodal development, representing multiple theoretical and applied perspectives. [...] It constitutes a major contribution not only to the study of gestural and multimodal development, but also to the understanding of cognitive and communicative development in a more broad sense.? Olga Capirci, ISTC ? CNR ?Looking at a variety of languages, input conditions, and contexts of language use, these researchers demonstrate how language development is necessarily embodied and multimodal. These studies present exciting new insights into the dynamic relationships that are necessary for language development.? Elena Nicoladis, University of Alberta, Canada -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mccune at rci.rutgers.edu Thu Jun 14 14:15:11 2012 From: mccune at rci.rutgers.edu (Lorraine McCune) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:15:11 -0400 Subject: Book announcement : Gesture and Multimodal development In-Reply-To: <00d201cd4a32$e63fe620$b2bfb260$@univ-tlse2.fr> Message-ID: Dear Michelle, I will order this immediately! Very exciting. I will be in Paris working with Maya Hickman 2012/2013, so hopefully we will meet during that time. Sincerely, Lorraine On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Guidetti Mich?le wrote: > ** ** > > *Gesture and Multimodal Development***** > > *Edited by Jean-Marc Colletta and Mich?le Guidetti***** > > Universit? Stendhal - Grenoble 3 / Universit? Toulouse 2**** > > ** ** > > We gesture while we talk and children use gestures prior to words to > communicate during the first year. Later, as words become the preferred > form of communication, children continue to gesture to reinforce or extend > the spoken messages or even to replace them. This volume, originally > published as a Special Issue of *Gesture *10:2/3 (2010), brings together > studies from language acquisition and developmental psychology. It provides > a review of common theoretical, methodological and empirical themes, and > the contributions address topics such as gesture use in prelinguistic > infants with a special and new focus on pointing, the relationship between > gestures and lexical development in typically developing and deaf children > and even how gesture can help to learn mathematics. All in all, it brings > additional evidence on how gestures are related to language, communication > and mind development.**** > > * * > > *[Benjamins Current Topics, 39] 2012. xii, 223 pp.* > > * * > > http://benjamins.com/#catalog/books/bct.39/main**** > > * * > > ** ** > > *Table of contents***** > > *About the authors***** > > *Introduction***** > > Gesture and multimodal development**** > > *Mich?le Guidetti and Jean-Marc Colletta***** > > *Articles***** > > Pointing gesture in young children: Hand preference and language > development**** > > *H?l?ne Cochet and Jacques Vauclair***** > > Support or competition? Dynamic development of the relationship between > manual pointing and symbolic gestures from 6 to 18 months of age**** > > *Claire D. Vallotton***** > > From gesture to sign and from gesture to word: Pointing in deaf and > hearing children**** > > *Aliyah Morgenstern, St?phanie Ca?t, Marie Collombel-Leroy, Fanny > Limousin and Marion Blondel***** > > How the hands control attention during early word learning**** > > *Nancy de Villiers Rader and Patricia Zukow-Goldring***** > > Infant movement as a window into language processing**** > > *Laurel Fais, Julia Leibowich, Ladan Hamadani and Lana Ohira***** > > Children?s lexical skills and task demands affect gestural behavior in > mothers of late-talking children and children with typical language > development**** > > *Angela Grimminger, Katharina J. Rohlfing and Prisca Stenneken***** > > The type of shared activity shapes caregiver and infant communication**** > > *Daniel Puccini, Mireille Hassemer, Doroth? Salomo and Ulf Liszkowski***** > > Transcribing and annotating multimodality: How deaf children?s productions > call into the question the analytical tools**** > > *Agn?s Millet and Isabelle Est?ve***** > > Mathematical learning and gesture: Character viewpoint and observer > viewpoint in students? gestured graphs of functions**** > > *Susan Gerofsky* > > ** ** > > ?This collection of papers presents a wonderful and vast overview of > contemporary research on gesture and multimodal development, representing > multiple theoretical and applied perspectives. [...] It constitutes a major > contribution not only to the study of gestural and multimodal development, > but also to the understanding of cognitive and communicative development in > a more broad sense.?**** > > *Olga Capirci*, *ISTC ? CNR***** > > ?Looking at a variety of languages, input conditions, and contexts of > language use, these researchers demonstrate how language development is > necessarily embodied and multimodal. These studies present exciting new > insights into the dynamic relationships that are necessary for language > development.?**** > > *Elena Nicoladis*, *University of Alberta, Canada***** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > -- Lorraine McCune, EdD Chair, Department of Educational Psychology Graduate School of Education Rutgers University 10 Seminary Place New Brunswick, NJ 08901 Ph: 732-932-7496 ex. 8310 FAX: 732932-6829 Web Page: www.gse.rutgers.edu -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lsnow at u.washington.edu Sat Jun 16 21:31:34 2012 From: lsnow at u.washington.edu (Laura Snow) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 14:31:34 -0700 Subject: pronoun errors of gender Message-ID: Dear all, I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do these errors occur? 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that they occur? 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and saying, "He has it") In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would also be useful! Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP University of Washington Center on Human Development and Disability Seattle, WA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aliyah.morgenstern at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 22:31:22 2012 From: aliyah.morgenstern at gmail.com (Aliyah MORGENSTERN) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 00:31:22 +0200 Subject: pronoun errors of gender In-Reply-To: <000901cd4c07$6791c1a0$36b544e0$@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: Dear Laura, I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of feminine). As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when they are repaired by adults. I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which influence certain automatisms...). As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. Best, Aliyah Aliyah Morgenstern Professor of Linguistics Sorbonne Nouvelle University Le 16 juin 2012 ? 23:31, Laura Snow a ?crit : > Dear all, > > I?m trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse ?he? and ?she?), and if so, > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do these errors occur? > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that they occur? > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and saying, ?He has it?) > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I?m mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would also be useful! > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > University of Washington > Center on Human Development and Disability > Seattle, WA > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 23:45:20 2012 From: dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com (Denis Donovan) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2012 19:45:20 -0400 Subject: pronoun errors in gender Message-ID: Hi Laura, Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne :xiii). Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this observation: In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a not uncommon case. Best, Denis Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. Director, EOCT Institute Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry St. Petersburg, Florida P.O Box 47576 St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 Phone: 727-641-8905 DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: DONOVAN-What would a young ?essentially computational? mind look like.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 154886 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lise.menn at Colorado.EDU Sun Jun 17 16:41:51 2012 From: lise.menn at Colorado.EDU (Lise Menn) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 10:41:51 -0600 Subject: Digest for info-childes@googlegroups.com - 3 Messages in 2 Topics In-Reply-To: <90e6ba21241bbec3ec04c2aa909b@google.com> Message-ID: The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair makes them more vulnerable to error. Lise Menn On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, > > wrote: Today's Topic Summary Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics * pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] * pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] pronoun errors in gender Denis Donovan > Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 Hi Laura, Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne :xiii). Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this observation: In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a not uncommon case. Best, Denis Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. Director, EOCT Institute Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry St. Petersburg, Florida P.O Box 47576 St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 Phone: 727-641-8905 DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com pronoun errors of gender "Laura Snow" > Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 Dear all, I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do these errors occur? 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that they occur? 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and saying, "He has it") In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would also be useful! Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP University of Washington Center on Human Development and Disability Seattle, WA Aliyah MORGENSTERN > Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 Dear Laura, I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of feminine). As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when they are repaired by adults. I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which influence certain automatisms...). As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. Best, Aliyah Aliyah Morgenstern Professor of Linguistics Sorbonne Nouvelle University Le 16 juin 2012 ? 23:31, Laura Snow a ?crit : You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group info-childes. You can post via email. To unsubscribe from this group, send an empty message. For more options, visit this group. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 Boulder CO 80302 Professor Emerita of Linguistics Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science University of Colorado Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] Campus Mail Address: UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science Campus Physical Address: CINC 234 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sbraunwd at cox.net Sun Jun 17 18:44:17 2012 From: sbraunwd at cox.net (sbraunwd at cox.net) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 11:44:17 -0700 Subject: From Sue Braunwald Re: Pronoun errors in gender in early normal development. Message-ID: The Braunwald-Max Planck Corpus contains some early errors beginning at about 22-23 months of age. The data in CHILDES do not contain my context notes so I am sending this example from the original diary data. I have not specifically analyzed the data for this purpose, but this example illustrates one normal child's early confusion. As the example illustrates, there are two steps in the process. The first step is to learn the difference in gender between the referents of the nouns boy and girl. The second and concurrently emerging step is to figure out how the difference in the gender of a referent relates to the system of English pronouns. Laura, 01;10.26 is watching the family's male cat, Peanuts, climbing a screen to a patio door. I am with her. The following is my complete diary entry. L: He bad girl. M: He's a bad boy. M: Or she's a bad girl. (laughing) L: She bad boy. She [L] has great confusion now with 3rd person singular. She uses he for it as subject and he or she interchangeably. She uses it correctly as object, however. (J4-71 #317) This example of a pronoun gender error comes from a month during which Laura is more generally very confused about how to use English pronouns. From a longitudinal and developmental perspective, these errors appear to be part of a larger problem involving how pronouns work. Laura is also having trouble with first person singular pronouns. Laura, 01;10.18, "Great 1st person pronoun confusion. She uses predominately My but also an occasional I and Me. The rule--if there is one--however must be My + verb or + adjective. This my is beginning to generalize to verbs with which she used I so that I'm hearing 'My have/I have, My get/I get.' But she is clearly confused which suggests learning. The reason I think that she must use a rule is that she doesn't imitate the immediately preceding model (e.g., M: I'm pooped. L: My pooped too.)." J4-60 #217 It is important to note that these examples come from a toddler. Sue Braunwald -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From bpearson at research.umass.edu Sun Jun 17 19:38:13 2012 From: bpearson at research.umass.edu (Barbara Pearson) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:38:13 -0400 Subject: another gender anecdote In-Reply-To: <20120617144417.2PI9D.96784.imail@fed1rmwml303> Message-ID: Dear All, Since we're sharing anecdotes, here is one from Tom Roeper's book Prism of Grammar . Roeper is recounting a story from Patrick Griffiths, so this is now 3rd-hand--but it, too, contributes to answering Laura's original question with, "yes, typically-developing children make theses errors and no, there doesn't seem to be much systematic work on it yet." (p. 64) "PG has reported meeting a boy who called everyone he. To probe the boy's grammar further, he put out a male doll and a female doll and asked the boy to point to "she", which he obligingly did, (pointing to the female doll). Then Patrick .. pointed to the boy's mother and asked, "How about your mother?" --to which the boy confidently replied, "He's she." TR also points out that there are children who label everyone "she." Sounds like there's a study in there for someone. Cheers, Barbara On Jun 17, 2012, at 2:44 PM, wrote: > The Braunwald-Max Planck Corpus contains some early errors beginning at about 22-23 months of age. The data in CHILDES do not contain my context notes so I am sending this example from the original diary data. I have not specifically analyzed the data for this purpose, but this example illustrates one normal child's early confusion. As the example illustrates, there are two steps in the process. The first step is to learn the difference in gender between the referents of the nouns boy and girl. The second and concurrently emerging step is to figure out how the difference in the gender of a referent relates to the system of English pronouns. > > Laura, 01;10.26 is watching the family's male cat, Peanuts, climbing a screen to a patio door. I am with her. The following is my complete diary entry. > L: He bad girl. > M: He's a bad boy. > M: Or she's a bad girl. (laughing) > L: She bad boy. > She [L] has great confusion now with 3rd person singular. She uses he for it as subject and he or she interchangeably. She uses it correctly as object, however. (J4-71 #317) > > This example of a pronoun gender error comes from a month during which Laura is more generally very confused about how to use English pronouns. From a longitudinal and developmental perspective, these errors appear to be part of a larger problem involving how pronouns work. Laura is also having trouble with first person singular pronouns. > > Laura, 01;10.18, "Great 1st person pronoun confusion. She uses predominately My but also an occasional I and Me. The rule--if there is one--however must be My + verb or + adjective. This my is beginning to generalize to verbs with which she used I so that I'm hearing 'My have/I have, My get/I get.' But she is clearly confused which suggests learning. The reason I think that she must use a rule is that she doesn't imitate the immediately preceding model (e.g., M: I'm pooped. L: My pooped too.)." J4-60 #217 > > It is important to note that these examples come from a toddler. Sue Braunwald > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > ************************************************ Barbara Zurer Pearson, Ph.D. Research Associate, Depts of Linguistics and Communication Disorders c/o 226 South College University of Massachusetts Amherst Amherst MA 01003 bpearson at research.umass.edu http://www.umass.edu/aae/bp_indexold.htm http://www.zurer.com/pearson -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From csilva at usc.edu Mon Jun 18 16:35:06 2012 From: csilva at usc.edu (Silva-corvalan, Carmen: USC) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 09:35:06 -0700 Subject: pronoun errors of gender In-Reply-To: <000901cd4c07$6791c1a0$36b544e0$@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: The following is an excerpt from a chapter on subject realization in English and Spanish by two normally developing bilinguals (upcoming book is *Bilingual Language Acquisition: Spanish and English in the first six years. CUP).* These children did not make any gender errors, but they started using 3 person pronouns well into their 3rd year. Sensitivity to gender may have been helped by contact with Spanish, which marks gender on "everything". They both made the typical errors with 'me' as subject, though not frequently. I have only one example with "her" as subject, from Nico, who is an early acquirer and quite proficient in both languages. Notice mom's model and child correction: Mom: Where?s she going? [a cousin] N: [her's leaving] *2;1.25* Mom: Where?s she going? N: [Thrifty, she wants to buy stuff, shave for t?o Fernando] "In English, Nico starts using pronouns at 1;8.2 in the utterance *I get it*(playing with a ball with an adult). The 94 overt pronouns in his English include: *I* (64 cases); *it* in the item *it?s* (21 cases); *you* (1 in the routine *How are you?*, and 6 in the frame *What (are) you V-ing?*); and 2 cases of *he*. These alternate with 8 unexpressed pronouns: *I* (4), * it* (3), and *you* (1). Only three different frames for the use of *I* are recorded in Nico?s data throughout the 20th month: *I get it*, *I don?t like it*, and *I want X*. Bren starts using the first singular pronoun *I*at 1;10. This is the only pronoun he uses during the early age period: 11 examples in the frame *I want (it) X*, 3 cases of *I did it*, and 1 in the routine *I coming!* (with a null auxiliary). Of the 10 cases of null subject in Bren?s English only one is in the context of a second person singular; all other null subjects correspond to *I *with a missing auxiliary (e.g., *No like it*, *All done*). Shared knowledge with the surrounding adults, and the physical and discourse context make up for the children's initial stage of subject omission." I do not have further dates for English pronouns. For what may be worth, here's information about the Spanish pronouns: AGE Pros (first appearance) 1;11 yo 2;3 t? 2;4 ?l (1 token) 2;6-2;11: several t? and ?l NO other pronouns. FOR NICO: 2;3: yo 2;4: t?, ?l 2;5-2;11: several t? and ?l 2;9: nosotros (1 token) "Ella" 'she' does not appear. The boys don't have a sister and they refer to mom and other females by name. Carmen Silva-Corval?n On Saturday, June 16, 2012 2:31:34 PM UTC-7, Snow, Laura wrote: > Dear all, > > > > I?m trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse ?he? and ?she?), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, ?He has it?) > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., > ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I?m mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > On Saturday, June 16, 2012 2:31:34 PM UTC-7, Snow, Laura wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I?m trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse ?he? and ?she?), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, ?He has it?) > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., > ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I?m mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/info-childes/-/WyZpLL65Xq8J. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eisenbergsl at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 17:05:22 2012 From: eisenbergsl at gmail.com (Sarita Eisenberg) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:05:22 -0700 Subject: pronoun errors of gender In-Reply-To: <4B14808C-B62E-40CC-8476-FA7787914761@gmail.com> Message-ID: Laura We looked at errors produced by 3-year-olds with typical language on a picture description task and did find gender errors. The reference is: Eisenberg, S., Guo, L., & Germezi, M., How grammatical are three-year-olds? Language, Speech, and Hearing Services in Schools, 43, 36-52, January 2012. Sarita Eisenberg On Saturday, June 16, 2012 6:31:22 PM UTC-4, Esther wrote: > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that children > mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when they are in > the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead of "elle" or > the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no more fillers, > there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to two > different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la mange" > (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead of "IL > la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and object and > semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the time > that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when they > are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only have > spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only make > qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I myself > continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data session > when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe under > the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure I've > heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of different > factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of referents, > prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which influence certain > automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd or > 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. There > is more literature on that, especially in English and it might inspire you, > but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 ? 23:31, Laura Snow a ?crit : > > Dear all, > > I?m trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse ?he? and ?she?), and if so, > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, ?He has it?) > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case (e.g., > ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I?m mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages would > also be useful! > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > University of Washington > Center on Human Development and Disability > Seattle, WA > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/info-childes/-/vKJ-yQiFfI8J. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From csilva at usc.edu Mon Jun 18 17:58:02 2012 From: csilva at usc.edu (Silva-corvalan, Carmen: USC) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:58:02 -0700 Subject: Digest for info-childes@googlegroups.com - 3 Messages in 2 Topics In-Reply-To: <22F47EF9-0420-4B82-879E-F27B78145A52@colorado.edu> Message-ID: Dear all: The following is an excerpt from a chapter on subject realization in English and Spanish by two normally developing bilinguals (upcoming book is *Bilingual Language Acquisition: Spanish and English in the first six years. CUP).* These children did not make any gender errors, but they started using 3 person pronouns well into their 3rd year. Sensitivity to gender may have been helped by contact with Spanish, which marks gender on "everything". They both made the typical errors with 'me' as subject, though not frequently. I have only one example with "her" as subject, from Nico, who is an early acquirer and quite proficient in both languages. Notice mom's model and child correction: Mom: Where?s she going? [a cousin] N: [her's leaving] *2;1.25* Mom: Where?s she going? N: [Thrifty, she wants to buy stuff, shave for t?o Fernando] "In English, Nico starts using pronouns at 1;8.2 in the utterance *I get it*(playing with a ball with an adult). The 94 overt pronouns in his English include: *I* (64 cases); *it* in the item *it?s* (21 cases); *you* (1 in the routine *How are you?*, and 6 in the frame *What (are) you V-ing?*); and 2 cases of *he*. These alternate with 8 unexpressed pronouns: *I* (4), * it* (3), and *you* (1). Only three different frames for the use of *I*are recorded in Nico?s data throughout the 20th month: *I get it*, *I don?t like it*, and *I want X*. Bren starts using the first singular pronoun *I*at 1;10. This is the only pronoun he uses during the early age period: 11 examples in the frame *I want (it) X*, 3 cases of *I did it*, and 1 in the routine *I coming!* (with a null auxiliary). Of the 10 cases of null subject in Bren?s English only one is in the context of a second person singular; all other null subjects correspond to *I *with a missing auxiliary (e.g., *No like it*, *All done*). Shared knowledge with the surrounding adults, and the physical and discourse context make up for the children's initial stage of subject omission." I have not yet listed further dates for English pronouns. For what may be worth, here's information about the Spanish pronouns: AGE Pros (first appearance) 1;11 yo 2;3 t? 2;4 ?l (1 token) 2;6-2;11: several t? and ?l NO other pronouns. FOR NICO: 2;3: yo 2;4: t?, ?l 2;5-2;11: several t? and ?l 2;9: nosotros (1 token) "Ella" 'she' does not appear. The boys don't have a sister and they refer to mom and other females by name. Carmen Silva-Corval?n On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 ? 23:31, Laura Snow a ?crit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 ? 23:31, Laura Snow a ?crit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 ? 23:31, Laura Snow a ?crit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 ? 23:31, Laura Snow a ?crit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 ? 23:31, Laura Snow a ?crit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > On Sunday, June 17, 2012 9:41:51 AM UTC-7, Lise Menn wrote: > > The pronoun gender confusion issue in English can probably be settled > fairly quickly by looking at the CHILDES data base, but i want to offer a > caveat: the nominative he/she pair can also be subject to phonological > errors if the child hasn't yet learned to control the 'esh' sound. > For what it's worth, English-speaking agrammatic aphasics, who usually > have articulation problems, have he/she errors, but I don't know if there > are documented gender errors on possessive (his/her) or accusative > (him/her) forms; I suspect that the closeness in sound of the he/she pair > makes them more vulnerable to error. > Lise Menn > > > On Jun 17, 2012, at 6:55 AM, < > info-childes at googlegroups.com> wrote: > > Today's Topic Summary > > Group: http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes/topics > > - pronoun errors in gender [1 Update] > - pronoun errors of gender [2 Updates] > > pronoun errors in gender > > Denis Donovan Jun 16 07:45PM -0400 > > Hi Laura, > > Just a few thoughts on the subject you have raised. > > One of the problems with posing categorical problems is that they may, > or may not, present quite the same challenges to practical understanding in > different language worlds. In English, we can certainly refer to a city > such as Paris, as Alistair Horne did in his marvelous history, SEVEN AGES > OF PARIS, as a woman. And it is standard to refer to ships as feminine. No > one would ever say of the Titanic "He sunk." > > Whereas London, through the ages, has always betrayed clearly male > orientations, and New York has a certain ambivalence, has any sensible > person ever doubted that Paris is fundamentally a woman? It was thus that I > first conceived this book--not as any arrogant attempt to write an > all-embracing history of Paris, but rather as a series of linked > biographical essays, depicting seven ages (capriciously selected at the > whim of the author) in the long, exciting life of a sexy and beautiful, but > also turbulent, troublesome and sometimes excessively violent woman (Horne > :xiii). > > Horne, Alistaire (2004). Seven Ages of Paris. New York: Vintage. > > But languages that mark the gender of things other than people -- > objects, places, concepts, etc. -- and those that typically do not present > very different psychological or psycholinguistic challenges. You make this > observation: > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., ?her have it?). I can?t say that I?ve ever seen a child make a > pronoun gender error who did NOT have autism, but I?m having trouble > finding anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > I've attached a clinical example from a book that I'm finishing up > that does not fit your pattern. The example is a good 15 years old, > although it won't be published until the book is completed shortly. Notice > that the issue is both linguistically and clinically complex. Yet it's a > not uncommon case. > > Best, > > Denis > > Denis M. Donovan, M.D., M.Ed., F.A.P.S. > Director, EOCT Institute > > Medical Director, 1983 - 2006 > The Children's Center for Developmental Psychiatry > St. Petersburg, Florida > > P.O Box 47576 > St. Petersburg, FL 33743-7576 > Phone: 727-641-8905 > DenisDonovan at EOCT-Institute.org > dmdonovan1937 at gmail.com > > > pronoun errors of gender > > "Laura Snow" Jun 16 02:31PM -0700 > > Dear all, > > > > I'm trying to determine whether typically developing children ever make > errors in pronoun gender (e.g., reverse "he" and "she"), and if so, > > > > 1. at what point in their language development (and for how long) do > these errors occur? > > 2. are these errors consistent or intermittent during the time that > they > occur? > > 3. Do the errors occur mainly in cases of long-distance reference or > also with relatively simple utterances (e.g., pointing to a girl and > saying, > "He has it") > > In my clinical experiences, I have seen many children with autism who > make > errors in pronoun gender, and many kids with language disorders (as > well as > younger, typically developing kids) who make errors in pronoun case > (e.g., > "her have it"). I can't say that I've ever seen a child make a pronoun > gender error who did NOT have autism, but I'm having trouble finding > anything in the literature to back up that blanket statement. > > > > I'm mainly interested in finding formal studies of children learning > English, but evidence that is anecdotal and/or from other languages > would > also be useful! > > > > > > Laura Snow, Ph.D., CCC-SLP > > University of Washington > > Center on Human Development and Disability > > Seattle, WA > > > > Aliyah MORGENSTERN Jun 17 12:31AM +0200 > > > Dear Laura, > > I can only report anecdotal errors in French data. > We haven't made any specific study on this topic in our data of French > typical children (the Paris corpus) but I do have anecdotical evidence of > pronoun and determiner "errors" in gender. You might not consider it as > being the same issue (in the case of determiner, mostly grammatical gender, > in the case of pronouns referential or personal gender). I must say that > grammatical gender errors in French exist and are quite impressive when we > find them and also fun to analyze since the developmental pattern could be > similar to past tense with irregular verbs in English ("la fleur" feminine > flower instead of masculine, "un poule" - masculine chicken instead of > feminine). > > As far as personal pronouns are concerned, we have noticed that > children mostly produce non standard "proto-uses" of "proto-forms" when > they are in the filler syllable stage with fillers closer to "il" instead > of "elle" or the reverse... When the full pronoun stage is reached with no > more fillers, there are still some odd gender reversals... > Older children (3 or 4) get mixed up when they are trying to refer to > two different characters or persons in the same speech turn: "elle la > mange" (she eats her) speaking of the wolf eating the little girl, instead > of "IL la mange" (he eats her) with the added complexity of subject and > object and semantic roles of eater and "eatee"... > > As far as I know these errors are not consistent at all during the > time that they occur. I think it is interesting to study whether and when > they are repaired by adults. > > I'm sorry if this is really too vague...and of course since we only > have spontaneous data, the occurrences will be really scarce, we could only > make qualitative analyses. But I'm sure we have them. And actually, I > myself continue to make that type of "error". I can remember a whole data > session when I kept referring to the child as she when it was a he... Maybe > under the influence of scientific papers on language acquisition. I'm sure > I've heard adults get mixed up as well. I think there are a lot of > different factors (cognitive overload, semantic complexity, number of > referents, prototypical gender for certain roles or functions which > influence certain automatisms...). > > As far as the psychotic and autistic children I have worked with are > concerned, I have not filmed them, so can only speak from direct experience > with no data, but the errors were much more systematic when they existed. > > I think you could compare this phenomenon to pronominal reversal (3rd > or 2nd person instead of first person) in typical and autistic children. > There is more literature on that, especially in English and it might > inspire you, but you have probably already thought of it. > > Best, > Aliyah > > > > > Aliyah Morgenstern > Professor of Linguistics > Sorbonne Nouvelle University > > > Le 16 juin 2012 ? 23:31, Laura Snow a ?crit : > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group > info-childes. > You can post via email . > To unsubscribe from this group, sendan empty message. > For more options, visitthis group. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Info-CHILDES" group. > To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. > > > Lise Menn Home Office: 303-444-4274 > 1625 Mariposa Ave Fax: 303-413-0017 > Boulder CO 80302 > > Professor Emerita of Linguistics > Fellow, Institute of Cognitive Science > University of Colorado > > Secretary, AAAS Section Z [Linguistics] > > Campus Mail Address: > UCB 594, Institute of Cognitive Science > > Campus Physical Address: > CINC 234 > 1777 Exposition Ave, Boulder > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/info-childes/-/KML7yEEl3_AJ. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From csilva at usc.edu Mon Jun 18 17:55:42 2012 From: csilva at usc.edu (Carmen Silva-Corvalan) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:55:42 -0700 Subject: About pronoun gender errors Message-ID: Dear all: The following is an excerpt from a chapter on subject realization in English and Spanish by two normally developing bilinguals (Nico and Bren) (upcoming book is Bilingual Language Acquisition: Spanish and English in the first six years. CUP). These children did not make any gender errors, but they started using 3 person pronouns well into their 3rd year. Sensitivity to gender may have been helped by contact with Spanish, which marks gender on "everything". They both made the typical errors with 'me' as subject, though not frequently. I have only one example with "her" as subject, from Nico, who is an early acquirer and quite proficient in both languages. Notice mom's model and child's correction: Mom: Where?s she going? [a cousin] N: [her's leaving] 2;1.25 Mom: Where?s she going? [rising intonation] N: [Thrifty, she wants to buy stuff, shave for t?o Nanno] "In English, Nico starts using pronouns at 1;8.2 in the utterance I get it (playing with a ball with an adult). The 94 overt pronouns in his English include: I (64 cases); it in the item it?s (21 cases); you (1 in the routine How are you?, and 6 in the frame What (are) you V-ing?); and 2 cases of he. These alternate with 8 unexpressed pronouns: I (4), it (3), and you (1). Only three different frames for the use of Iare recorded in Nico?s data throughout the 20th month: I get it, I don?t like it, and I want X. Bren starts using the first singular pronoun I at 1;10. This is the only pronoun he uses during the early age period: 11 examples in the frame I want (it) X, 3 cases of I did it, and 1 in the routine I coming! (with a null auxiliary). Of the 10 cases of null subject in Bren?s English only one is in the context of a second person singular; all other null subjects correspond to I with a missing auxiliary (e.g., No like it, All done). Shared knowledge with the surrounding adults, and the physical and discourse context make up for the children's initial stage of subject omission." I have not yet listed further dates for English pronouns. For what may be worth, here's information about the Spanish pronouns: AGE Pros (first appearance) BREN 1;11 yo 2;3 t? 2;4 ?l (1 token) 2;6-2;11: several t? and ?l NO other pronouns. FOR NICO: 2;3: yo 2;4: t?, ?l 2;5-2;11: several t? and ?l 2;9: nosotros (1 token) "Ella" 'she' does not appear to age 2;10. The boys don't have a sister and they refer to mom and other females by name. Carmen Silva-Corval?n __________________________________ Professor University of Southern California -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From karen.pollock at ualberta.ca Mon Jun 18 19:56:39 2012 From: karen.pollock at ualberta.ca (Karen Pollock) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 13:56:39 -0600 Subject: pronoun gender errors Message-ID: I have many examples of pronoun gender errors from my son at approx 33 mos. He seemed to have pronoun case sorted out, but often confused 3rd person female, male, and neutral pronouns. Here are some examples: *He*'s getting more food too. (referring to a female grad student) No, that's not your shirt, it's *hers*. (referring to his dad) I got *her* shirt wet. (referring to Ernie's shirt) It did it by *herself*. (when I asked how the toy train track came apart) I wanna go with *her*, mama. (referring to his dad) And *he* was one too. (referring to me, his mother) Michael wants to drive by *herself*. (referring to himself) (he later said "I wanna do it by *youself*.") *He* said yes. (referring to me, his mother) That's *his* track. (referring to the train) I want to see *it* too. (referring to a female babysitter) *He* put *her* nose in it. (referring to a pet duck - gender unknown - drinking water) I can attest that he had contrastive use of the fricatives (h/s/sh) at this age, so I don't think his errors at this time had a phonological basis. In part he may have been simply confused as to the actual gender of people/animals. I probed to see if he could identify friends & family members as "boys" or "girls." He was pretty accurate with children (with the exception of one tomboyish girl friend that he consistently said was a "boy"), but pretty random with adults - maybe he didn't think of them as "boys/girls" but as "mommies/daddies" or "men/women." I also probed his use of he/she with different people's names, using the frame "Where is *(Scooter, Miss Deborah, Candace, ...)*? *(He/She's)* at home/school/work/etc)." He used "he" all of the time males but also used "he" 60% of the time with females. Some females (interestingly, most with short hair) were consistently "he" while others alternated between "he" and "she." Another possibility is that from 12- 30 mos he spent 2 days/wk with a Mandarin-speaking nanny. Although it never appeared that much Mandarin was learned (he taught her more English than she taught him Chinese), it's possible that the lack of a gender contrast in 3rd person pronouns in Mandarin contributed to his confusion in English. These gender errors didn't last too long - a few months maybe. At 19 (almost 20 now) he has no problem correctly identifying gender [?] Karen Pollock > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 330.gif Type: image/gif Size: 96 bytes Desc: not available URL: From macw at cmu.edu Fri Jun 22 21:25:59 2012 From: macw at cmu.edu (Brian MacWhinney) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2012 17:25:59 -0400 Subject: childes.talkbank.org Message-ID: Dear Info-CHILDES, In order to more accurately reflect the relation between the CHILDES and TalkBank Projects, we have added the hostname childes.talkbank.org to the Internet DNS tables. The old name of childes.psy.cmu.edu will continue to work. However, in future communications and links, we will refer to the CHILDES host machine as childes.talkbank.org. This hostname change is intended to underscore the ways in which CHILDES, AphasiaBank, PhonBank, TBIBank, DementiaBank, and similar projects are sub-components of the overall TalkBank system. Best regards, -- Brian MacWhinney -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. To post to this group, send email to info-childes at googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to info-childes+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/info-childes?hl=en. From nratner at umd.edu Sat Jun 23 14:24:33 2012 From: nratner at umd.edu (Nan Bernstein Ratner) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:24:33 -0400 Subject: Use of CHILDES samples in teaching child language disorders? Message-ID: Due to some staffing changes in my Department, I will be teaching a graduate speech-language pathology course in child language disorders this coming fall for the first time in ages. I am interested in knowing if anyone on the list has developed any class activities/assignments that use any of the corpora from children with language disorders? If you want to correspond with me directly, I will collect answers and post them back to the list. Best regards to all, Nan Ratner -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Info-CHILDES" group. 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