<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">I did an experiment with Japanese learners of English and English learners of Russian once to try to work on this, but most of the combinations that were novel to the learners involved 'r' consonant clusters (e.g. /tr/ for japanese speakers, /vstr/ for English speakers) and the newness of the phonetics of the respective /r/ phones was still so much of an issue that we never got to the phonotactic demands themselves. Bad design on my part, of course, not to have thought of that in advance, so we never submitted it for publication.<DIV> But since phonotactic constraints play such a huge role in L1 (see almost anything I've written on child phonology!), one has to expect that the same will be true in L2.</DIV><DIV> Lise Menn </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>kids who can say <BR><DIV><DIV>On May 17, 2005, at 3:42 PM, Ping Li wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande">Dear Colleagues,</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Lucida Grande; min-height: 15px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande">A student of mine is interested in doing some work on L2 phonological acquisition/production. So far it seems that most of the literature on perceived accent in a foreign language is on the segmental level such as the vowel quality or VOT of consonants (e.g., James Flege's work). There is also recent evidence that prosodic structure may be an important dimension.</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Lucida Grande; min-height: 15px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande">One intuitive impression of mine is that often a L2 speaker is able to pronounce the individual phonemes accurately in isolation, but when it comes to assemble the phonemes in a word, or to put several words together, problems would occur that make the speaker sound non-native. In other words, individual vowels or consonants can be produced to near native accuracy, but the coordination of sound sequences causes the trouble in perceived accent. I have communicated this idea with several colleagues in L2 phonological acquisition, and they seem to indicate that there might be some truth to the idea. Unfortunately I could not find<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>solid studies that would confirm or disconfirm this impression. I myself am not very well informed of studies in L2 phonological acquisition. Hence I am writing to ask if you could provide some pointers or references.</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Lucida Grande; min-height: 15px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande">If the problem of L2 accent lies in the sequential articulation (more so than in producing individual phonemes), then one can hypothesize that there may be some maturational constraints to the ability of motor planning and programming, or control of speech apparatus, in early vs. late bilingual learners. One can also predict that children are better at saying tongue twisters than adults. A wide open question...</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Lucida Grande; min-height: 15px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande">Thanks for any pointers or insights.</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Lucida Grande; min-height: 15px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande">Ping Li</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Lucida Grande; min-height: 15px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Lucida Grande; min-height: 15px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier">---------------------------------------------------------- <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier">Ping Li, Ph.D.</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier">Associate Professor</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier">Graduate Program Coordinator</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier">Department of Psychology</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier">University of Richmond</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier">Richmond, VA 23173, USA<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier">Email: <A href="mailto:pli@richmond.edu">pli@richmond.edu</A></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier"><A href="http://www.richmond.edu/~pli/">http://www.richmond.edu/~pli/</A> <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier"><A href="http://cogsci.richmond.edu">http://cogsci.richmond.edu</A>/</FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier">Bilingualism: Language and Cognition:<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier"><A href="http://cogsci.richmond.edu/bilingualism/bilingualism.html">http://cogsci.richmond.edu/bilingualism/bilingualism.html</A></FONT></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><FONT face="Courier" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Courier">---------------------------------------------------------- <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 13.0px Lucida Grande; color: #6e008e; min-height: 16.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 13.0px Lucida Grande; color: #6e008e; min-height: 16.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 13.0px Lucida Grande; color: #6e008e; min-height: 16.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="4" color="#6e008e" style="font: 13.0px Lucida Grande; color: #6e008e">Beware Procrustes bearing Occam's razor.</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 13.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080; min-height: 16.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080">Prof. Lise Menn </FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080">University of Colorado/Boulder;<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>University of Hunan/Changsha</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080">Secretary, AAAS Section Z (Linguistics)</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080"> <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN></SPAN>office phone 303-492-1609</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080">Department of Linguistics<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN></SPAN>home fax 303-413-0017</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080"> <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN></SPAN>Office: Hellems 293</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080">Mailing address:<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN></SPAN>295<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN></SPAN>UCB <SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN></SPAN>University of Colorado<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN></SPAN>Boulder, CO 80309-0295<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"><SPAN class="Apple-converted-tab"> </SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080; min-height: 15.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080">Lise Menn's home page</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080"><A href="http://www.colorado.edu/linguistics/faculty/lmenn/">http://www.colorado.edu/linguistics/faculty/lmenn/</A></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080; min-height: 15.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080">"Shirley Says: Living with Aphasia"</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080"><A href="http://spot.colorado.edu/~menn/Shirley4.pdf">http://spot.colorado.edu/~menn/Shirley4.pdf</A></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080; min-height: 15.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080">Japanese version of "Shirley Says"</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080"><A href="http://www.bayget.com/inpaku/kinen9.htm">http://www.bayget.com/inpaku/kinen9.htm</A></FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080; min-height: 15.0px"><BR></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080">Academy of Aphasia</FONT></P> <P style="margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px"><FONT face="Lucida Grande" size="3" color="#000080" style="font: 12.0px Lucida Grande; color: #000080"><A href="http://www.academyofaphasia.org">http://www.academyofaphasia.org</A>/</FONT></P> </DIV><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>