It is pretty simple---if language is an autonomous system--we can form non-sense sentences---and <br>possibly worlds. All of creativity involves imagining and distorting how things are--going against <br>context and reality----sometimes in a possible world, or may be an impossible one. <br>
this is what Jabberwocky showed about a century ago. It is the moment of liberation from context<br>that we have to capture.<br><br>Tom<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 12:29 PM, suse <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sgrass@gmx.net">sgrass@gmx.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
i wouldn't eve have thought that "anti-pragmatic ability is the
sign of true acquisition"... <br>
<br>
Does that mean that one fully acquired language only when one is
able to use it inappropriately? <br>
If this is what is meant, then i wonder how humankind was able to
maintain the ability to communicate linguistically. Or does the
above statement mean that true acquisition relates to the ability to
understand sentences which make no or little sense in our world (but
may be true in other worlds in which mice get eaten by cheese rather
than the other way round and in which Chomsky is an advocate of
pragmatic bootstrapping?)<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
Suse<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Am 22-03-11 17:03, schrieb Tom Roeper:
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><blockquote type="cite">Sorry---you know I was typing fast, and it is
1976---but I guess if we went back to Panini, one<br>
could probably find the idea earlier.<br>
<br>
Tom<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Matthew
Saxton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:M.Saxton@ioe.ac.uk" target="_blank">M.Saxton@ioe.ac.uk</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-GB">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">></span></font> ...... <i><font face="Arial"><span style="font-style: italic;">embedded
in Chomsky's remark in 1076 ......</span></font></i><font face="Arial"><span></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I realise Chomsky has been
around for some time, but who’d’ve though it? He
precedes the invention of the printing press......</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Best wishes,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Matthew Saxton.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">*********************************************************************************************************</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><img src="cid:part1.02030600.05070500@gmx.net" height="228" width="513"></span></font><font face="Arial"><span></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><a href="http://www.ioe.ac.uk/staff/PHDT/PHDT_71.html" target="_blank"><font color="blue"><span style="color: blue;">Saxton Academic Homepage</span></font></a></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Calibri" size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-weight: bold;" lang="EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;" lang="EN-US"> <a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Tom
Roeper<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
22 March 2011 12:37<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
<a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: pragmatic bootstrapping</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Anat---<br>
in the paper I wrote in 1981 for the Wanner
Gleitman volume, I argued that children needed
pragmatic<br>
mapping onto syntax to justify transformations.
That means a simultaneous syntactic and
pragmatic <br>
information. It is in my book as well---and
actually embedded in Chomsky's remark in 1076
Reflections<br>
on Language, that acqusition must be consistent
with "trigtering experience" I said to him that
must include<br>
pragmatics and he agreed.<br>
It is obvious that it is hard to understand:<br>
the cat was chased by the dog.<br>
but the chld has a big semantic.pragmatic
advantage when they hear:<br>
<br>
the milk was drunk by the boy<br>
<br>
because they know that milk cannot drink boy.
If there is syntax is ready to project a
transformation,<br>
then they use that information and visual
support to say "milk has to get into the object
position somehow,<br>
do I have a mental operation to do it".<br>
Once acquired, it will be autonomous and
apply without pragmatics, so if I tell a 3yr
old:<br>
<br>
the cheese ate the mouse<br>
<br>
they laugh, because they know,
anti-pragmatically, that it is true. An
anti-pragmatic ability is the<br>
sign of true acquisition.<br>
<br>
best, Tom Roeper</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Mon,
Mar 21, 2011 at 6:17 PM, parisa Daftarifard
<<a href="mailto:pdaftaryfard@gmail.com" target="_blank">pdaftaryfard@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Dear
Anat,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Very
interesting topic.....I am not sure but lack
of language development or language
development delay can occur because of
problems in pragmatic bootstrapping in some
children. Kids with low possibility of being
involved in interaction-- when mothers or
fathers are busy or when kids live in a
poor-interaction environment-- showed to
have language delay. This is especially
interesting when we consider that TVs are
always on and they can get enough input in a
unilateral way.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Best.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Parisa Daftarifard</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On
Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 7:37 AM, Anat Ninio
<<a href="mailto:msninio@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">msninio@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New
Roman" size="4"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Dear List,<br>
<br>
Sorry to have sent this to the whole list
by mistake, but actually I'd love to hear
from anybody who knows of studies that can
be said to test the hypothesis that
children learn syntax by "pragmatic
bootstrapping". <br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Anat Ninio<br>
<br>
</span></font><br>
On 17-03-11 06:01, Anat Ninio wrote: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New
Roman" size="4"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Hi Nameera,<br>
<br>
Thanks a lot! Absolutely coincidentally
this very minute I'm reading your 2008 (or
is it 2009?) encyclopedia entry </span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Akhtar, N., & Herold, K.
(2008). Pragmatic development. In M. M.
Haith & J. B. Benson (Eds.), <i><span style="font-style: italic;">Encyclopedia
of infant and early childhood
development,</span></i> Vol. <i><span style="font-style: italic;">2</span></i>
(pp. 572-581). San Diego, CA: Academic
Press.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New
Roman" size="4"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">which I want to cite for a
research proposal for an European grant.
First, is it 2008 or 2009? Second, you say
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">"We know of no empirical research,
however, that has directly addressed the
question of whether children learn
syntactic constructions in the same way as
they learn words; that is, through
"pragmatic bootstrapping" or attention to
speakers' intentions."</span></font><font size="2"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">
(p.319)</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New
Roman" size="4"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Would you still say so? Or is
there some new study that you know of that</span></font><font size="5"><span style="font-size: 18pt;"> </span></font><font size="4"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">I
should mention?</span></font> <font size="4"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Any
newer publication of yours on this point?</span></font><br>
<br>
Thanks a lot and see you in SRCD for sure, <br>
<br>
Anat<br>
<br>
<br>
On 17-03-11 05:14, nameera akhtar wrote: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">congratulations,
anat!<br>
<br>
hope to see you at srcd,<br>
<br>
nameera</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New
Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 7:44 PM,
Anat Ninio <<a href="mailto:msninio@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">msninio@pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il</a>>
wrote:</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="4"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">Dear Friends and Colleagues,
<br>
<br>
I'm very happy to be able to announce
the publication of my new book by
Oxford University Press. It is
entitled</span></font> <font size="4"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;">
"Syntactic development, its input and
output" and a description of it, as
well as a link to the Introduction,
can be found on the publisher's
on-line catalogue at <a href="http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199565962.do" target="_blank">http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199565962.do</a><br>
<br>
I hope you'll like it! <br>
<br>
Anat Ninio </span></font></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Parisa
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Phd
Student of TEFL </span></font></p>
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UMass South College<br>
Amherst, Mass. 01003 ISA<br>
<a href="tel:413%20256%200390" target="_blank">413
256 0390</a></span></font></p>
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