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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">There seems to be some confusion or misunderstanding here. I believe that the examples that mentioned are from English monolingual children in Tsunoda's paper (he cites the examples provided by Melissa Bowerman
through personal communication).</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:.25in 27.0pt"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><i><span style="font-family: Calibri; ">I’m hitting on something.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri; ">
</span></i></span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><span style="font-family: Calibri; ">(Melissa Bowerman, p.c.)</span><span style="font-family: Calibri; "><o:p></o:p></span></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="tab-stops:.25in 27.0pt"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><i><span style="font-family: Calibri; ">My feet don’t touch to the ground.</span><span style="font-family: Calibri; ">
</span></i></span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><span style="font-family: Calibri; ">(Melissa Bowerman, p.c.)</span><span style="font-family: Calibri; "><o:p></o:p></span></span></font></p>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">My original intent to ask this includes (1) whether these are common, (2) if so, whether there are studies focusing on these.</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">My motivation, at least in part, comes from the use of transitive vs. intransitive verbs (and this is why I mentioned my English-Japanese bilingual children's data, "<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri; ">The
reindeer fell the boy to the pond," in which the intransitive verb "fell" instead of the transitive "drop" is used). Previous studies (e.g., </span>Fukuda & Choi, 2009; <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri; ">Nomura & Shirai, 1997; Tsujimura,
2006</span>) report that whereas c<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri; ">hildren’s early verbs are predominantly transitive verbs in some languages including English, in
</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri; ">Japanese-speaking children, in their early stages of language development, use more intransitive verbs than transitive verbs.</span></div>
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<div><span style="font-family: Calibri; "><br>
</span></div>
<span style="font-family: Calibri; ">Please note, however, that this is not directly related to the above two examples provided by Bowerman.</span><br>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri; "><br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Calibri; ">In any case, as has been discussed earlier, if you count the frequency of these, probably it is fairly low. And tank you for the suggestions.</span></div>
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<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "> </div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; ">Masahiko</div>
<div style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><br>
</div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">
<div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span>Guy Modica <<a href="mailto:guy.modica@gmail.com">guy.modica@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span><<a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 17:30:03 +1000<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span>"<a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>Re: Hierarchy of Two-Place Predicates<br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<div>
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<div>
<div>The children Masahiko mentions are clearly well beyond the two-word or telegraphic stage. This hasn't been addressed, but are these children Japanese-English sequential bilinguals by any chance? The well known phenomenon of negative transfer could have
an explanatory role here. Among Japanese L2 learners of English, the argument structure of Japanese verbs is often applied to English verbs. For example "I recommend you to go" - meaning "you should go" and not "I nominate you to go." This is well embedded
and widely found in Japanese English. <br>
<br>
In Masahiko's examples, *hit* could be identified with *ataru* - a lexeme acquired early. *Touch* is semantically close to *sawaru*. Both of these case mark the "patient" with *ni* - usually analyzed as heading a PP (postpositional). Another close synonym of
hit is *tataku* which does take the hitee as a DO with the particle *wo*. But I don't believe this is acquired as early as *ataru*.</div>
<div><br>
Regards and good health.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Guy Modica</div>
<div>Tokyo</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On Aug 17, 2012, at 2:24 AM, Brian MacWhinney <<a href="mailto:macw@cmu.edu">macw@cmu.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Tom,
<div><br>
<div> If we are talking about Japanese, I couldn't agree with you more. Nozomi Tanaka (student at Hawaii) did an (unpublished) search of the </div>
<div>parental input in the Japanese CHILDES database and the amount of case marker deletion, argument omission, and order variation was pretty</div>
<div>stunning. But a look at the Eve corpus for English shows a very different pattern. There are still omissions, to be sure, but if an NP (not PP) follows a transitive</div>
<div>verb, it is almost always the object of the verb. I don't think the English-learning child has to ask whether or not they are learning any particular type of language.</div>
<div>They just see where these nouns are occurring, what their role is, and they make the logical item-based conclusion that objects follow their verbs, whereas agents precede them.</div>
<div>If this cue were as unreliable as you suggest, they would hold off on that conclusion. In Japanese, they probably do, looking instead for cues from the discourse</div>
<div>or the situation, but also making note of the times when the case markers actually do appear.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--Brian MacWhinney</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Aug 16, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Tom Roeper <<a href="mailto:roeper@linguist.umass.edu">roeper@linguist.umass.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">Dear Brian and Masahiko---<br>
<br>
Assuming a role for English is the classic acquisition error of assuming that children<br>
already know what they have to learn. I take it that it is precisely the question of what<br>
first steps children take when they do not know if they are in a free word order language<br>
or not that we have to characterize. Although it may seem that the child must simply<br>
connect: John eats hotdog<br>
to context and the answer is clear, the child will also hear: the hotdog was eaten<br>
"here's your hotdog, now eat"<br>
"hotdogs you love"<br>
and so forth.<br>
<br>
Tom<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Brian MacWhinney <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:macw@cmu.edu" target="_blank">macw@cmu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear Masahiko and Tom,
<div><br>
<div> I am still not sure I understand Masahiko's question, but the claim that children make errors such as "I'm hitting on something" is an interesting one. My own child language error filters are telling me that errors of this type are quite rare. However,
I can they could arise occasionally from analogy with constructions found in the input such as "I'm pushing on the table" and "My feet don't touch to the ground" could arise from "My feet don't reach to the ground."</div>
<div> This level of analogic productivity is common, although the specific types mentioned here would seem rare, probably because of competition from the stronger pattern in English for placing the direct object after the verb.</div>
<div> But Masahiko also seems to suggest that children are in search of some method of disambiguating subject and object. But English has already provided them with this through its consistent and reliable placement of the subject or agent before the verb
and the object after the verb. I think one would have to turn to a language with freer word order to find any evidence that children are themselves in search of new methods for marking case. </div>
<div> Analyses of the introduction of new case markings and wider issues such as Differential Object Marking (DOM) typically involve historical processes, not particular child language errors or creations. This is not to say that children have no role
in historical change, but I doubt that they are the main contributors.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- Brian MacWhinney</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="im">
<div>On Aug 16, 2012, at 11:08 AM, Tom Roeper <<a href="mailto:roeper@linguist.umass.edu" target="_blank">roeper@linguist.umass.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="im">I think children are more likely to omit the prepositions and say things like:<br>
I cried stairs/ I'm going beach<br>
even in places where they are called for. There is some discussion of this<br>
in my book The Prism of Grammar--MIT<br>
<br>
</div>
Tom Roeper
<div class="im"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:39 PM, Masahiko Minami <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:mminami@sfsu.edu" target="_blank">mminami@sfsu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-size:14px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;word-wrap:break-word">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">Tasaku Tsunoda proposed a classification of predicates, in various versions, and its latest (1985) has been referred to as the hierarchy of two-place predicates (‘HTPP’).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">My understanding of HTPP is as follows:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">When a two-place predicate R(x,y) is used to describe an event involving two participants, usually an agent and a patient, it is of utmost importance to avoid ambiguity as to which noun phrase
corresponds to the first argument x (the agent) and which to the second argument y (the patient). For this purpose, case can be used to mark one of the arguments. If one argument is case marked, this already suffices for the purpose of disambiguation. Thus,
from the distinguishing perspective, there is no need to case mark both arguments. Neither would it be necessary to case mark the one and only argument of a one-place (intransitive) predicate.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">In Tsunoda’s recent paper, he presents the following:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">I’m hitting on something.</span></i><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">My feet don’t touch to the ground.</span></i><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">While </span>
<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">the above examples do not involve the preposition on or to<i></i>in adults’ English, children may initially include these prepositions but later abandon these prepositions, in accordance with the grammar of adults’
English.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">If there are papers referring to such phenomena, please let me know.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; ">Masahiko Minami</span></p>
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<span></span></div>
</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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