Hello all,<div>We have extensive unpublished data of object clitics in Spanish, comparing direct and indirect objects. Once again, tense is not considered in the analysis. We have found, in monolinguals, that object clitics are not that late....by 4 years, and even earlier, children use them appropriately. Our analysis, contrary to others exposed in other mails, is based on cognitive grammar models.</div>
<div>We do have data on verb tense and its relation to lexical aspect, but in that data we are not analyzing clitics.</div><div>The object data is not published but was presented at IASCL. The tense data is in Goldstein's 2012 book on Bilingualism.</div>
<div>Donna Jackson-Maldonado<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2013/4/24 Isa Barriere <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:barriere.isa@gmail.com" target="_blank">barriere.isa@gmail.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I generally agree with John's point: tense marking and the appropriate use of object clitics reflect different aspects of the grammar. You will find relevant discussions in the many papers that have contrasted subject and object clitics in the acquisition of French by Cornelia Hamman, Celia Jacubowicz, Geraldine Legendre, Marie-Therese Lenormand, Joanne Paradis, Phaedra Royle and my own on the acquisition of French SE (accessible at <a href="http://www.yeled.org/res.asp" target="_blank">www.yeled.org/res.asp</a>) in addition to the works cited below by John. <br>
<br>To the best of my knowledge the literature on the acquisition of Spanish and Italian also demontrate the realtively late acquisition of object clitics, in relation to tense marking- see the many papers by Bottari for Italian and on Spanish See the chapter by L.M. Bedore Morphosyntactic Development and references cited therein in B.A. Goldstein (2004) Bilingual Language Development and Disorders in Spanish-English Speakers. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Isabelle Barriere, PhD </div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">
<div> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 8:26 AM, Grinstead, John <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Grinstead.11@osu.edu" target="_blank">Grinstead.11@osu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
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<div>See "General and specific effects of lexicon in grammar: Determiner and object pronoun omissions in child Spanish" by Pérez-Leroux, Castilla & Brunner in Journal of Speech, Language and Hearing Research.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>It does not address the development of tense, which is likely to be relatively independent of the lexicon in its development (See Rice, Wexler and Hershberger 1998; Rice, Wexler and Redmond 1999), but it shows convincingly that missing objects are attributable to children's developing lexical knowledge (i.e whether a verb is optionally or obligatorily transitive is lexical knowledge of that verb), and not to their syntactic knowledge.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>Pérez-Leroux, A. T., Castilla, A. P., & Brunner, J. (2012). General and specific effects of lexicon in grammar: Determiner and object pronoun omissions in child Spanish. Journal of Speech, Language, and Hearing Research, 55(2), 313-327.</li>
<li>Rice, M. L., Wexler, K., & Hershberger, S. (1998). Tense over Time: The Longitudinal Course of Tense Acquisition in Children with Specific Language Impairment. Journal of Speech, Language, and Hearing Research, 41(6), 1412-1431.</li>
<li>Rice, M. L., Wexler, K., & Redmond, S. M. (1999). Grammaticality Judgments of an Extended Optional Infinitive Grammar: Evidence from English-Speaking Children with Specific Language Impairment. Journal of Speech, Language, and Hearing Research, 42(4), 943-961.</li>
</ul></div>
<div>On the view I am suggesting, the two types of errors you mention stem from different types of knowledge development.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Hope that helps,</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>John</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>-- </div>
<div>John Grinstead</div>
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<span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">From: </span>Aude Laloi <<a href="mailto:a.laloi@uva.nl" target="_blank">a.laloi@uva.nl</a>><br><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Reply-To: </span><<a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Date: </span>Wed, 24 Apr 2013 09:37:17 +0200<br><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">To: </span><<a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold">Subject: </span>tense and clitics in Romance languages<br></div>
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<div><br></div>
<div>
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt">Dear all<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt">I have a question concerning differences in acquisition/accuracy rate between grammatical constructions in (a)typical child learners.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt">In French, children with and without language disorders seem to perform better in terms of accuracy on past tense as opposed to object clitics. However, to my knowledge, the question as to why object ciltics would be more difficult/vulnerable than past tense in French has not been thoroughly addressed.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt">Does anyone know whether this discrepancy between tense and object clitics has been observed in (a)typical learners of any other (Romance) languages?<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt">I have my own ideas but would like to hear explanations from others as to why this is the case.<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt">Thanks a lot for your help!<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman',serif;FONT-SIZE:12pt">Aude</div>
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<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span style="TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;TEXT-INDENT:0px;BORDER-SPACING:0px;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT:medium Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px"><span style="TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;TEXT-INDENT:0px;BORDER-SPACING:0px;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT:medium Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word"><span style="TEXT-TRANSFORM:none;TEXT-INDENT:0px;BORDER-SPACING:0px;BORDER-COLLAPSE:separate;FONT:medium Helvetica;WHITE-SPACE:normal;LETTER-SPACING:normal;WORD-SPACING:0px">
<div style="WORD-WRAP:break-word">
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:small">Aude Laloi</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:small">Amsterdam Center for Language and Communication</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:small">Universiteit van Amsterdam<br>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:medium"><span style="FONT-SIZE:small">Laboratoire de psychopathologie et processus de santé</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:medium"><span style="FONT-SIZE:small">Université Paris Descartes</span></div><a href="http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/a.laloi/" target="_blank"></a></span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE:small"><a href="http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/a.laloi/" target="_blank">http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/a.laloi/</a><br></span></div>
<div><br></div></div></span></div></span></span></div></span></div></div><br></div><br></div><br><br></div><br></div></div>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Donna Jackson-Maldonado<br>Facultad de Lenguas y Letras<br>Universidad Autónoma de Querétaro<br>México<br>web: <a href="http://www.donnajackson.weebly.com" target="_blank">http://www.donnajackson.weebly.com</a><br>
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