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<DIV>hi Katie,</DIV>
<DIV>I only know of an article written in 2005 regarding this matter.</DIV>
<DIV>Kind regards,</DIV>
<DIV>Véronique Devianne</DIV>
<DIV>Speech therapist</DIV>
<DIV>Doctorante Sciences du Langage, Université Sorbonne Nouvelle Paris 3</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=msyonata@huji.ac.il
href="mailto:msyonata@huji.ac.il">Yonata Levy</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 20, 2013 3:30 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=info-childes@googlegroups.com
href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com">CHILDES</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: MLU for languages with complex
morphology</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=gmail_default style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,153)">
<DIV class=gmail_default
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34)"><FONT
color=#000099>Since MLU is a heuristic measure, seems to me the solution
to this problem cannot be universal. Rather, it is necessary to establish a
method of counting which will be verified against theoretically-motivated
developmental trajectories to achieve comparative standards. In our studies of
Hebrew speaking children (Hebrew being a root-based, rich morphological
language) we are using a method of counting MLU that takes into consideration
the structure of Hebrew along with the need to guard against an inflated MLU.
Our way of calculating MLU could perhaps inform other root-based languages such
as Arabic but probably not languages with a different typology.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_default
style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34)"><FONT
color=#000099>Yonata.</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 2:47 PM, marilyn vihman <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:marilyn.vihman@york.ac.uk"
target=_blank>marilyn.vihman@york.ac.uk</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">I think one of the key problems with
calculating MLU in morphemes - although it seems the right way to compare
across languages, in principle - is the productivity problem: How do we know
which morphemes the child really has any kind of mastery over? Is it sensible
or appropriate to count all morphemes as if the child were using them
productively, without any test to see if that is true or not? This may give an
artificially high count to languages with synthetic morphology, lots of
morphemes packed into a single affix...or is a morpheme only counted based on
form? Even then, if the presence or absence of a single consonant means having
one morpheme or two...less of an issue for English, say, than for many other
Indo-European languages...then we probably need much more careful
transcription of the phonetics of the child's speech than is usually thought
necessary in morphosyntactic studies...
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-marilyn</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 20 maj <A href="tel:2013" target=_blank value="+9722013">2013</A>, at
13.40, Isa Barriere wrote:</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">I meant to
add:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">In
contrast with a mophologically impoverished/poor language, the number of
morphemes will tend to be positively correlated with the number of words,
which is why it is not as crucial to calculate MLU in morphemes.
</SPAN></DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">
<DIV><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>Good
morning,</SPAN>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">Isn't there a
negative correlation between morphological complexity of a given language
and the average number of words that an utterance contains in the same
language?</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">If we take the
examples in Inuktitut (given Shanley Allen's book based on her dissertation-
Allen 1989 or 1990, in the appendix), looking at the utterances taking into
account the # of words, many of them would only 1 word. However this
does not capture the complexity of the meaning and the structure- that MLU
does.</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">So for different
stages of devlpt and in the adult language the number of word per utterance
may be limited and pretty stable and the progression is therefore best
assessed taking into account number of morphemes (less stable across ages
and stages). </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial,sans-serif">Isabelle
Barriere, PhD</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, May 20, <A href="tel:2013" target=_blank
value="+9722013">2013</A> at 7:37 AM, Isa Barriere <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:barriere.isa@gmail.com"
target=_blank>barriere.isa@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV dir=ltr>Good morning,
<DIV>Isn't there a negative correlation between morphological complexity
of a given language and the average number of words that an utterance
contains in the same language?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If we take the examples in Inuktitut (given Shanley Allen's book
based on her dissertation- Allen 1989 or 1990, in the appendix), looking
at the utterances taking into account the # of words, many of them would
only 1 word. However this does not capture the complexity of the
meaning and the structure- that MLU does.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So for different stages of devlpt and in the adult language the
number of word per utterance may be limited and pretty stable and the
progression is therefore best assessed taking into account number of
morphemes (less stable across ages and stages). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Isabelle Barriere, PhD</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>-- <BR>
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<DIV><FONT color=#000099><STRONG><EM>Prof. Yonata
Levy</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000099><STRONG><EM>Psychology Department
</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000099><STRONG><EM>and Hadassah-Hebrew University Medical
School</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000099><STRONG><EM>Mount Scopus</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000099><STRONG><EM>Jerusalem 91905,
ISRAEL</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000099><STRONG><EM></EM></STRONG></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000099><STRONG><EM>tel:972-2-5883408
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