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We've also morphologized Sesotho - also on the CHILDES database.<br>
<br>
And Kamil Ud Deen used an 'MLU' criteria for Swahili - number of
morphemes per verb, that works well across Bantu languages, and
might for other morphologically rich null subject (and object)
languages. <br>
<br>
KD<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/09/13 1:11 PM, Yvan Rose wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:AA36BDEE-3655-4952-9AD0-807713750314@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<base href="x-msg://464/">Dear Shanley, everyone,
<div>MLU counts by syllables would potentially work for Inuktitut.
However, I wonder whether a morpheme count wouldn't work even
better, closer to the original spirit of MLUs, as the syllable
count would elude anything meaning-related.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Building on Nan's suggestion, I confirm that we could easily
rig both a syllabification algorithm (for Inuktitut), and a
(general-purpose) syllable-based MLU count in Phon. I would be
happy to work with you towards both objectives. This also raises
the question of converting your data into the Phon format,
something that shouldn't pose any serious problem either given
our advances on this front over the last year. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A morpheme-based one would require the utterances to be
morphologically analyzed first. We did this for Cree a few years
ago. Attached is a screen shot illustrating this. Please feel
free to contact me separately to discuss the specifics.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Yvan</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><img id="5884c511-7903-41f1-b33c-3678cbc4a5bc"
apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes"
src="cid:part1.01070508.00040409@gmail.com" height="659"
width="789"></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>On 2013-09-09, at 22:12, Nan Bernstein Ratner <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nratner@umd.edu">nratner@umd.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family:
Baskerville; font-size: medium; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align:
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; " lang="EN-US">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; ">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">OK, then,
pragmatic issues satisfied, Shelley Brundage and I
tried this a while back for English and came up with
a conversion factor of about 1.5 for American
English speaking kids’ speech from about 3-8 (JFD,
1989). But you are asking about norms? Because you
seem to have identified that the conversion is
closer to 1:1 for Inuktitut. This seems to be a
question Phon users might be able to compute for
longitudinal samples in the database. I guess Brian
could say whether any dataset in TalkBank is
pre-syllabified. If so, one could theoretically do
this on archival data.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Best regards
to all,<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Nan<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "> </span></div>
<div>
<div style="border-style: solid none none;
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225,
225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in; ">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; "><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline; ">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:info">mailto:info</a>-<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:childes@googlegroups.com"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline; ">childes@googlegroups.com</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Shanley
Allen<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday,
September 09, 2013 6:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline; ">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: MLU
in syllables?<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">No, it's a
good question. I wouldn't try this for English, but
it makes sense for Inuktitut because Inuktitut is
written with a syllabic script. So anyone who writes
Inuktitut (98% literacy rate!) is forced to think in
syllables, and native speakers of Inuktitut who are
assisting in the assessment can easily transcribe
the child's speech in syllabics and then simply
count the number of characters in each utterance.
Those same native speakers would have a very hard
time dividing Inuktitut into morphemes to calculate
a traditional MLU. And assessing MLU in words (as is
done for Irish, for example) is uninformative for
Inuktitut because it is polysynthetic and has
rampant argument ellipsis so all the interesting
linguistic development at early ages happens in the
morphology.<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Shanley.<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On
Sep 9, 2013, at 11:48 PM, Nan Bernstein Ratner
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom:
5pt; ">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; ">This may seem like a stupid question, but
do pediatricians know what a syllable is? My
spouse, who is a doctor, probably would prefer
something based on a literate unit, like words. I
am afraid to ask what he thinks about counting
syllables in any language, but I will go home
tonight and ask.<br>
Nan Bernstein Ratner<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline; ">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline; ">mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com</a>]
On Behalf Of Shanley Allen<br>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2013 5:25 PM<br>
To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com"
style="color: purple; text-decoration:
underline; ">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a><br>
Subject: MLU in syllables?<br>
<br>
I'm wondering if anyone has tried to calculate MLU
in syllables for any language, or knows of any
study like this. I'm working with an SLP colleague
to devise tests that would be suitable for
assessing language delay in Inuktitut. The target
user group is pediatricians who don't know
Inuktitut well enough to do a morphological
analysis, but want to use measures that are
appropriate for the language. This idea seems a
little crazy, but our preliminary results show
that MLU in syllables correlates very highly with
MLU in morphemes in Inuktitut data, so it might
just work.<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance,<br>
Shanley Allen.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 13.5pt;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
serif; "><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Shanley
Allen<br>
Professor, Psycholinguistics and
Language Development<br>
Dept. of Social Sciences, University
of Kaiserslautern<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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