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<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">It is true that individuals</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> who are learning a second language (L2) often struggle to understand the idioms of the L2 (Liu, 2008). This is because idioms do not translate easily from one language to another and are culturally specific. For example, a literal translation of the French idiom</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><I></I></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><I> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">avoir le cafard</FONT></I></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> (to have the cockroach) would not make sense to the English-speaking person whose L2 is French until the individual learns that the expression means to be bored and depressed (Delp, 2013) or</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><I></I></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><I> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">down in the dumps</FONT></I></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> (Cousin, 1989). Conversely, a literal translation of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><I></I></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><I> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">down in the dumps</FONT></I></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> might confuse the native French speaker who is learning English as an L2.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">This is in contrast to proverbs, which are more easily translated from one language to another. For example, the following proverb is Russian, but we all understand it</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> instantly</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">“The church is near but the road is all ice. The tavern is far, but I’ll walk very carefully</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">”</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">That’s just the nature of different types of figurative expressions (and human beings).</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Marilyn Nippold</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">University of Oregon</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">USA</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
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<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma">From:</FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma"> info-childes@googlegroups.com [<A HREF="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com">mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com</A>]</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma">On Behalf Of</FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma">Gordon, Peter<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma">Sent:</FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma"> Friday, June 06, 2014 7:39 AM<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma">To:</FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma"> info-childes@googlegroups.com<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma">Subject:</FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Tahoma"> Re: Nelson update on Idiom comprehension in child language</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">One interesting observation that I've heard is that people who are (late) L2 learners will have problems in using and understanding idioms in the non-native language. This appears to be true in speakers who have perfect phonology and grammar and might be otherwise indistinguishable from native speakers. It suggests that the acquisition of idioms is somehow linked to mechanisms that differentiate between L1 and L2 processing.</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Peter Gordon</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Keith Nelson <</SPAN><A HREF="mailto:k1n@psu.edu"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">k1n@psu.edu</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us">> wrote:</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">HI all. Here is the specific reference on the the intervention study (also discussed in the JSLHR research paper) with ASD children for idioms. Best regards, Keith N<BR>
</SPAN></P>
<UL DIR=LTR><UL DIR=LTR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><FONT FACE="Times">Whyte, E. M., Nelson, K. E, & Khan, K. S. (2013). Learning of idiomatic language expressions in a group intervention for children with autism,</FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B><I> <FONT FACE="Times">Autism,</FONT></I></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><B> <FONT FACE="Times">17, 449-464.</FONT></B></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
</UL></UL>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">---------- Forwarded message ----------<BR>
From:<B> Keith Nelson</B> <</SPAN><A HREF="mailto:k1n@psu.edu"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">k1n@psu.edu</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us">><BR>
Date: Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:44 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Idiom comprehension in child language<BR>
To: </SPAN><A HREF="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">info-childes@googlegroups.com</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us">, Keith Nelson <</SPAN><A HREF="mailto:keithnelsonart@gmail.com"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">keithnelsonart@gmail.com</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us">><BR>
</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Hi all. I m attaching a JSLHR paper just out from our lab that reviews lit and presents an intervention study on idiom comprehension. Cheers, Keith </SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Tom Roeper <</SPAN><A HREF="mailto:roeper@linguist.umass.edu"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">roeper@linguist.umass.edu</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us">> wrote:</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Hi folks--</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">just to mention a couple of things--an example I just heard:</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"> "I know a shortcut"</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"> "well, I know a shorter cut"</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">and cases like "you're a slowpoke, but I'm a fastpoke".</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">I wrote a paper on idioms with Zvi Penner that appears</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">in the volume for Jüregen Weisenborn by Mouton--it</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">relates to complex sentences.</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"> Work by Ellen Winner on Metaphor seems pertinent</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">to children's comprehension of them. A child with</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">a stomache who said"</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"> "there's a fireengine in my stomach"</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">or a child with a stuffed nose who said:</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"> "there's paint in my nose".</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Deviations from compositionality can still be logically</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">motivated.</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Tom Roeper</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:09 AM, Mehmet ÖZCAN <</SPAN><A HREF="mailto:mehozcan20@gmail.com"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">mehozcan20@gmail.com</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us">> wrote:</SPAN></P>
<UL DIR=LTR><UL DIR=LTR>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Dear Hüseyin,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">(I answer all of the questions you posed me personally here thinking that other colleagues might want to comment on them as well)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Symbol">·</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=1> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us">(Concerning your question about the location of data collection</SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=1>)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">The location you are going to collect the data depends totally on the location of the study carried out by Gokmen and her student (as you mentioned) to find out the words determined as “prototype words”; watermelon which is found to be 8</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><SUP><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">th</FONT></SUP></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial"> item on the list in Ankara may be the first or third in Urfa or Adana; or orange the first in Mediterranean Region, if you are going to construct your sentences depending on their list. In a nutshell, prototypicality is idiosyncratic and a common sense of prototypicality occurs when the personal senses of prototypicalities overlap to the sufficient extent.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> </SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Symbol">·</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=1> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">One problem with the hypothesis: As far as I understood, you assume that idiomatic expressions are processed within the framework of compositionality theory: the meaning of a phrase or a larger linguistic unit can be grasped by knowing the meaning/function of each element the whole unit contains. This may be the case in most cases, especially when it comes to accessing the literal meaning. As you know, Compositionality Theory has been criticized for not being able to explain the processing of pragmatics in the expressions. Thus, you may revise your assumptions.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Symbol">·</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=1> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Another thing to concentrate on may be the prototypicality of the idiomatic expression (among other idiomatic expressions) itself rather than the expressions’ containing prototypical elements. You know, </FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><I></I></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><I><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">some birds are birder than other birds</FONT></I></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">. Some idiomatic expressions may have some prototypical features structurally or regarding other qualities.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Symbol">·</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=1> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Integrating infant directed speech to this study would be too much to my understanding. You will have to carry out longitudinal observations to measure the exposition of a child to idiomatic expressions or the words in the list determined by the previous studies. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">I am looking forward to hearing about the findings of your demanding study. Good luck in all ways.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
</UL></UL>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 12:56:54 AM UTC+3, </SPAN><A HREF="mailto:huy...@gmail.com"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">huy...@gmail.com</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"> wrote:</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT COLOR="#444444" FACE="Georgia">Dear all,<BR>
<BR>
First of all, I would like to express my excitement about posting my first question in this group (Of course, after reading the older posts).<BR>
<BR>
I have been reading about Prototype Theory of Eleanor Rosch, which is the point of departure for my M.A thesis, within the frame of child language development. Then I suddenly found myself trying to design steps for (an) experiment(s) in idiom comprehension. I am partly aware of the literature in figurative language processing (thanks to the comprehensive chapter by Gibbs and Colston in</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> </SPAN><A HREF="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780123693747"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" FACE="Georgia">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780123693747</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT COLOR="#444444" FACE="Georgia">). So my questions are as follows:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT COLOR="#444444" SIZE=2 FACE="Symbol">·<FONT FACE="Courier New"> </FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"> <FONT COLOR="#444444" FACE="Georgia">What is the direction of research in idiom comprehension in child language?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT COLOR="#444444" SIZE=2 FACE="Symbol">·<FONT FACE="Courier New"> </FONT></FONT> <FONT COLOR="#444444" FACE="Georgia">Could you suggest me some seminal works in idiom comprehension, or more generally figurative language?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT COLOR="#444444" SIZE=2 FACE="Symbol">·<FONT FACE="Courier New"> </FONT></FONT> <FONT COLOR="#444444" FACE="Georgia">Is there anyone to help me revise my experimental design?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT COLOR="#444444" SIZE=2 FACE="Symbol">·<FONT FACE="Courier New"> </FONT></FONT> <FONT COLOR="#444444" FACE="Georgia">What kind of an effect could prototypicality of concepts in idioms have on children's comprehension? (Feel free to share your criticism or advice, if you prefer to look at this research question from another perspective.)</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT COLOR="#444444" SIZE=2 FACE="Symbol">·<FONT FACE="Courier New"> </FONT></FONT> <FONT COLOR="#444444" FACE="Georgia">A third research field having just popped into my mind is child directed speech. In what way can I integrate it into my research?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT COLOR="#444444" FACE="Georgia">Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us"><FONT COLOR="#444444" FACE="Georgia">Huseyin</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
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<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">-- </SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Peter Gordon, Associate Professor</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Biobehavioral Sciences Department, Box 180</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Teachers College, Columbia University</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">1152 Thorndike Hall</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">525 W120th St. </SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">New York, NY 10027</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Phone: 212 678-8162</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Fax: 212 678-8233</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">E-mail: </SPAN><A HREF="mailto:pgordon@tc.edu"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">pgordon@tc.edu</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=LTR><SPAN LANG="en-us">Web Page:</SPAN><A HREF="http://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/index.htm?facid=pg328"><SPAN LANG="en-us"><U><FONT COLOR="#0000FF">http://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/index.htm?facid=pg328</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG="en-us"></SPAN></P>
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