<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dear Peter,<div><br></div><div>This is an interesting new strand to the discussion! Without being a neuro specialist at all, I'd just like to comment on your idea about the second hypothesis. Based on the work of Bates, Thal and their group on language learning in children with focal lesions - as well as on much other work on hemispheric specialization - it seems that in at least in L1 novel expressions will first be picked up by the RH because it is attuned to what is novel and is the first port for holistic processing. This all fits well enough with what you say, except for the 'shunting…into RH'. A difference from L2 would be that the linguistic analysis by the LH is likely not to function at all in L1 until some criterial amount of holistic word/phrase knowledge has been picked up by the RH (John Locke had an interesting 1994 paper about the transfer of early L1 linguistic knowledge to LH; I doubt that it is quite right, but I don't know of an alternative view). (I realise that the LH has been shown to be active in consonant discrimination more or less from birth, but that is not the same thing as processing lexical items, of course.) In L2, on the other hand, the LH is already functional for sublexical analysis - even in very young L2 learners, so idioms, on your 2nd hypothesis, could begin to be (mistakenly) analysed into components wherever the individual lexical items are known before the idiom as a whole is encountered - again, more likely in L2 than in L1. </div><div><br></div><div>One thing to add is that very young L2 learners, whose phonological memory has already begun to be constructed with linguistic memory (see Keren-Portnoy et al. 2010, <i>JSLHR</i>), tend generally to <i>begin</i> L2 learning with chunks or formulaic language - i.e., with longer lexical units than single words - unlike most L1 learners (see Vihman 1982, in Obler & Menn's book on <i>Exceptional Language</i>). I'm not sure how to follow out the implications of this in relation to idiom learning…but yes, this is a fun topic to brainstorm about!</div><div><br></div><div>-marilyn vihman</div><div><br><div><div>On 8 Jun 2014, at 01:58, "Gordon, Peter" <<a href="mailto:pgordon@tc.edu">pgordon@tc.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">Hi Marilyn,<div><br></div><div>I think the problem with this explanation for L2 learners' problems with idiom comprehension is that the same problems should arise for L1 learners. "kick the bucket" etc. should be just as opaque to the child learning their first language as it is for the L2 learner. So, the question is: Is it the nature of the learning environment that allows L1 learners to "crack the code", so to speak, or is it in the nature of the learner? In the case of the first hypothesis, it might simply be the case that the L1 learner just has more exposure to language and idioms and more opportunity to figure the idiomatic meaning. However, L2 speakers who live full time in the country of the L2 seem to have just as much opportunity to interface in this way. So maybe it's the second hypothesis, and it's about being a young learner, possibly some form of the "less is more" hypothesis could explain this (right now, I don't see a clear line with that explanation). One interesting possibility might be related to the fact that idioms are processed in the Right Hemisphere analogue of language areas. This suggests that, at some point in the L1 learning process, the brain shunts idiomatic material (perhaps due to its non-compositional nature) into RH, where it is processed as chunks, but that this sorting process is not possible for L2 learners because they, in some sense, can only learn bits of language that conform to certain kinds of rule structures that are candidates for Left Hemisphere representation.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Fun to think about!</div><div><br></div><div>Peter</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Marilyn Nippold <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nippold@uoregon.edu" target="_blank">nippold@uoregon.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: auto; "><u></u>
<div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">It is true that individuals</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> who are learning a second language (L2) often struggle to understand the idioms of the L2 (Liu, 2008). This is because idioms do not translate easily from one language to another and are culturally specific. For example, a literal translation of the French idiom</font></span><span lang="en-us"><i></i></span><span lang="en-us"><i> <font face="Arial">avoir le cafard</font></i></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> (to have the cockroach) would not make sense to the English-speaking person whose L2 is French until the individual learns that the expression means to be bored and depressed (Delp, 2013) or</font></span><span lang="en-us"><i></i></span><span lang="en-us"><i> <font face="Arial">down in the dumps</font></i></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> (Cousin, 1989). Conversely, a literal translation of</font></span><span lang="en-us"><i></i></span><span lang="en-us"><i> <font face="Arial">down in the dumps</font></i></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> might confuse the native French speaker who is learning English as an L2.</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Arial">This is in contrast to proverbs, which are more easily translated from one language to another. For example, the following proverb is Russian, but we all understand it</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> instantly</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">:</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">“The church is near but the road is all ice. The tavern is far, but I’ll walk very carefully</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">.</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">”</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"></font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Arial">That’s just the nature of different types of figurative expressions (and human beings).</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">Marilyn Nippold</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">University of Oregon</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">USA</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><b></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b><font face="Tahoma">From:</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> <a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a> [<a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com</a>]</font></span><span lang="en-us"><b></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b> <font face="Tahoma">On Behalf Of</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Tahoma">Gordon, Peter<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-us"><b></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b><font face="Tahoma">Sent:</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> Friday, June 06, 2014 7:39 AM<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-us"><b></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b><font face="Tahoma">To:</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> <a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a><br>
</font></span><span lang="en-us"><b></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b><font face="Tahoma">Subject:</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> Re: Nelson update on Idiom comprehension in child language</font></span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">One interesting observation that I've heard is that people who are (late) L2 learners will have problems in using and understanding idioms in the non-native language. This appears to be true in speakers who have perfect phonology and grammar and might be otherwise indistinguishable from native speakers. It suggests that the acquisition of idioms is somehow linked to mechanisms that differentiate between L1 and L2 processing.</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Peter Gordon</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Keith Nelson <</span><a href="mailto:k1n@psu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">k1n@psu.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">> wrote:</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">HI all. Here is the specific reference on the the intervention study (also discussed in the JSLHR research paper) with ASD children for idioms. Best regards, Keith N<br>
</span></p>
<ul dir="LTR"><ul dir="LTR"><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><b><font face="Times">Whyte, E. M., Nelson, K. E, & Khan, K. S. (2013). Learning of idiomatic language expressions in a group intervention for children with autism,</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b><i> <font face="Times">Autism,</font></i></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b> <font face="Times">17, 449-464.</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
</ul></ul><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From:<b> Keith Nelson</b> <</span><a href="mailto:k1n@psu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">k1n@psu.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">><br>
Date: Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:44 AM<br>
Subject: Re: Idiom comprehension in child language<br>
To: </span><a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">info-childes@googlegroups.com</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">, Keith Nelson <</span><a href="mailto:keithnelsonart@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">keithnelsonart@gmail.com</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">><br>
</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Hi all. I m attaching a JSLHR paper just out from our lab that reviews lit and presents an intervention study on idiom comprehension. Cheers, Keith </span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Tom Roeper <</span><a href="mailto:roeper@linguist.umass.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">roeper@linguist.umass.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">> wrote:</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Hi folks--</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">just to mention a couple of things--an example I just heard:</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"> "I know a shortcut"</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"> "well, I know a shorter cut"</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">and cases like "you're a slowpoke, but I'm a fastpoke".</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">I wrote a paper on idioms with Zvi Penner that appears</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">in the volume for Jüregen Weisenborn by Mouton--it</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">relates to complex sentences.</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"> Work by Ellen Winner on Metaphor seems pertinent</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">to children's comprehension of them. A child with</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">a stomache who said"</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"> "there's a fireengine in my stomach"</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">or a child with a stuffed nose who said:</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"> "there's paint in my nose".</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Deviations from compositionality can still be logically</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">motivated.</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Tom Roeper</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:09 AM, Mehmet ÖZCAN <</span><a href="mailto:mehozcan20@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">mehozcan20@gmail.com</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">> wrote:</span></p>
<ul dir="LTR"><ul dir="LTR"><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">Dear Hüseyin,</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">(I answer all of the questions you posed me personally here thinking that other colleagues might want to comment on them as well)</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Symbol">·</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font size="1"> </font></span><span lang="en-us">(Concerning your question about the location of data collection</span><span lang="en-us"><font size="1">)</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Arial">The location you are going to collect the data depends totally on the location of the study carried out by Gokmen and her student (as you mentioned) to find out the words determined as “prototype words”; watermelon which is found to be 8</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><sup><font face="Arial">th</font></sup></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> item on the list in Ankara may be the first or third in Urfa or Adana; or orange the first in Mediterranean Region, if you are going to construct your sentences depending on their list. In a nutshell, prototypicality is idiosyncratic and a common sense of prototypicality occurs when the personal senses of prototypicalities overlap to the sufficient extent.</font></span><span lang="en-us"> </span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Symbol">·</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font size="1"> </font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">One problem with the hypothesis: As far as I understood, you assume that idiomatic expressions are processed within the framework of compositionality theory: the meaning of a phrase or a larger linguistic unit can be grasped by knowing the meaning/function of each element the whole unit contains. This may be the case in most cases, especially when it comes to accessing the literal meaning. As you know, Compositionality Theory has been criticized for not being able to explain the processing of pragmatics in the expressions. Thus, you may revise your assumptions.</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Symbol">·</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font size="1"> </font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">Another thing to concentrate on may be the prototypicality of the idiomatic expression (among other idiomatic expressions) itself rather than the expressions’ containing prototypical elements. You know, </font></span><span lang="en-us"><i></i></span><span lang="en-us"><i><font face="Arial">some birds are birder than other birds</font></i></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">. Some idiomatic expressions may have some prototypical features structurally or regarding other qualities.</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Symbol">·</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font size="1"> </font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">Integrating infant directed speech to this study would be too much to my understanding. You will have to carry out longitudinal observations to measure the exposition of a child to idiomatic expressions or the words in the list determined by the previous studies. </font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">I am looking forward to hearing about the findings of your demanding study. Good luck in all ways.</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</ul></ul><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 12:56:54 AM UTC+3, </span><a href="mailto:huy...@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">huy...@gmail.com</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us"> wrote:</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Georgia">Dear all,<br>
<br>
First of all, I would like to express my excitement about posting my first question in this group (Of course, after reading the older posts).<br>
<br>
I have been reading about Prototype Theory of Eleanor Rosch, which is the point of departure for my M.A thesis, within the frame of child language development. Then I suddenly found myself trying to design steps for (an) experiment(s) in idiom comprehension. I am partly aware of the literature in figurative language processing (thanks to the comprehensive chapter by Gibbs and Colston in</font></span><span lang="en-us"> </span><a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780123693747" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Georgia">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780123693747</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Georgia">). So my questions are as follows:</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Symbol">·<font face="Courier New"> </font></font></span><span lang="en-us"> <font color="#444444" face="Georgia">What is the direction of research in idiom comprehension in child language?</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Symbol">·<font face="Courier New"> </font></font> <font color="#444444" face="Georgia">Could you suggest me some seminal works in idiom comprehension, or more generally figurative language?</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Symbol">·<font face="Courier New"> </font></font> <font color="#444444" face="Georgia">Is there anyone to help me revise my experimental design?</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Symbol">·<font face="Courier New"> </font></font> <font color="#444444" face="Georgia">What kind of an effect could prototypicality of concepts in idioms have on children's comprehension? (Feel free to share your criticism or advice, if you prefer to look at this research question from another perspective.)</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Symbol">·<font face="Courier New"> </font></font> <font color="#444444" face="Georgia">A third research field having just popped into my mind is child directed speech. In what way can I integrate it into my research?</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Georgia">Thanks,</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Georgia">Huseyin</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#888888">--<br>
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</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">-- </span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Peter Gordon, Associate Professor</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Biobehavioral Sciences Department, Box 180</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Teachers College, Columbia University</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">1152 Thorndike Hall</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">525 W120th St. </span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">New York, NY 10027</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Phone: <a href="tel:212%20678-8162" value="+12126788162" target="_blank">212 678-8162</a></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Fax: <a href="tel:212%20678-8233" value="+12126788233" target="_blank">212 678-8233</a></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">E-mail: </span><a href="mailto:pgordon@tc.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">pgordon@tc.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Web Page:</span><a href="http://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/index.htm?facid=pg328" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">http://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/index.htm?facid=pg328</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us"></span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">--<br>
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</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Peter Gordon, Associate Professor<div>Biobehavioral Sciences Department, Box 180</div><div>Teachers College, Columbia University</div>
<div>1152 Thorndike Hall</div><div>525 W120th St. </div><div>New York, NY 10027</div><div>Phone: 212 678-8162</div><div>Fax: 212 678-8233</div><div>E-mail: <a href="mailto:pgordon@tc.edu" target="_blank">pgordon@tc.edu</a></div>
<div>Web Page:<a href="http://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/index.htm?facid=pg328" target="_blank">http://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/index.htm?facid=pg328</a></div><div><br></div></div>
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>Marilyn Vihman</div><div>Language and Linguistic Science</div><div>Vanbrugh College V/C/207</div><div>University of York</div><div>Heslington</div><div>YO10 5DD</div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">tel +44 (0)1904 323612</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; "><a href="http://www.yorkphondev.org">http://www.yorkphondev.org</a></span></div><div><br></div></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; "><br></span></div><div><br></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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