<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Peter, Brian, Marilyn, all. I believe that there is an additional complication for these issues. Namely, tho L2 learners often find idioms difficult, so do L1 learners. That is, relative to the difficulty/age of acquisition for idioms and metaphors the vast majority of lexical and syntactic structures are less difficult--idioms, metaphors, and a small set of syntactic structures are "late acquisitions."<br>
<br></div> As regards the relevant interactions that Brian has mentioned, in naturalistic work the literature appears pretty silent. We have shown in the Autism paper cited earlier that for children with ASD idioms are indeed very late acquisitions, but that a small number of engaging and varied interactions about idiom meaning lead to rapid mastery.<br>
<br></div>Cheers, Keith <br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 8, 2014 at 2:43 AM, Brian MacWhinney <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:macw@cmu.edu" target="_blank">macw@cmu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Peter,<div><br><div> There is indeed a lot of evidence that second language learners adopt an analytic approach that short-circuits chunking. However, often the source of their errors and incomplete learning is transfer, rather than inadequate episodic encoding or chunking. </div>
<div> Of course, L2 learners have a perfectly intact RH, so perhaps we want to trace at least some of the problems L2 learners have with idioms to inadequate input. I am thinking about the interactions I had recently with my granddaughter about the idioms of “pain in the neck” and “pain in the butt”. I must have spent about 10 minutes explaining to her that these were not literally pains, but rather difficult situations or people. She found it all quite amusing. If I had spent the same amount of time indulging a second language learner with all the same explanations, I think they would have benefitted just the same. But, typically, we are not as patient with second language learners as we are with our children and grandchildren. </div>
<div> I realize that one anecdote does not prove a point, but trying to find examples of parental tutorials on idioms in even the richest transcript database is going to be difficult. Instead, I would point to Chukovskij’s “From Two to Five” and similar diary-type materials to see how children work together with adults to dig out the meanings of idioms.</div>
<div><br></div><div>— Brian MacWhinney</div><div><br></div><div>On Jun 8, 2014, at 12:58 AM, Gordon, Peter <<a href="mailto:pgordon@tc.edu" target="_blank">pgordon@tc.edu</a>> wrote:<div><br><blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Marilyn,<div><br></div><div>I think the problem with this explanation for L2 learners' problems with idiom comprehension is that the same problems should arise for L1 learners. "kick the bucket" etc. should be just as opaque to the child learning their first language as it is for the L2 learner. So, the question is: Is it the nature of the learning environment that allows L1 learners to "crack the code", so to speak, or is it in the nature of the learner? In the case of the first hypothesis, it might simply be the case that the L1 learner just has more exposure to language and idioms and more opportunity to figure the idiomatic meaning. However, L2 speakers who live full time in the country of the L2 seem to have just as much opportunity to interface in this way. So maybe it's the second hypothesis, and it's about being a young learner, possibly some form of the "less is more" hypothesis could explain this (right now, I don't see a clear line with that explanation). One interesting possibility might be related to the fact that idioms are processed in the Right Hemisphere analogue of language areas. This suggests that, at some point in the L1 learning process, the brain shunts idiomatic material (perhaps due to its non-compositional nature) into RH, where it is processed as chunks, but that this sorting process is not possible for L2 learners because they, in some sense, can only learn bits of language that conform to certain kinds of rule structures that are candidates for Left Hemisphere representation.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Fun to think about!</div><div><br></div><div>Peter</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 2:03 PM, Marilyn Nippold <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nippold@uoregon.edu" target="_blank">nippold@uoregon.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">It is true that individuals</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> who are learning a second language (L2) often struggle to understand the idioms of the L2 (Liu, 2008). This is because idioms do not translate easily from one language to another and are culturally specific. For example, a literal translation of the French idiom</font></span><span lang="en-us"><i></i></span><span lang="en-us"><i> <font face="Arial">avoir le cafard</font></i></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> (to have the cockroach) would not make sense to the English-speaking person whose L2 is French until the individual learns that the expression means to be bored and depressed (Delp, 2013) or</font></span><span lang="en-us"><i></i></span><span lang="en-us"><i> <font face="Arial">down in the dumps</font></i></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> (Cousin, 1989). Conversely, a literal translation of</font></span><span lang="en-us"><i></i></span><span lang="en-us"><i> <font face="Arial">down in the dumps</font></i></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> might confuse the native French speaker who is learning English as an L2.</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Arial">This is in contrast to proverbs, which are more easily translated from one language to another. For example, the following proverb is Russian, but we all understand it</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> instantly</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">:</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">“The church is near but the road is all ice. The tavern is far, but I’ll walk very carefully</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">.</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">”</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"></font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Arial">That’s just the nature of different types of figurative expressions (and human beings).</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">Marilyn Nippold</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">University of Oregon</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">USA</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<div><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><div><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><div><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><b></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b><font face="Tahoma">From:</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> <a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a> [<a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com</a>]</font></span><span lang="en-us"><b></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b> <font face="Tahoma">On Behalf Of</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Tahoma">Gordon, Peter<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-us"><b></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b><font face="Tahoma">Sent:</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> Friday, June 06, 2014 7:39 AM<br>
</font></span><span lang="en-us"><b></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b><font face="Tahoma">To:</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> <a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">info-childes@googlegroups.com</a><br>
</font></span><span lang="en-us"><b></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b><font face="Tahoma">Subject:</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Tahoma"> Re: Nelson update on Idiom comprehension in child language</font></span></p>
<div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">One interesting observation that I've heard is that people who are (late) L2 learners will have problems in using and understanding idioms in the non-native language. This appears to be true in speakers who have perfect phonology and grammar and might be otherwise indistinguishable from native speakers. It suggests that the acquisition of idioms is somehow linked to mechanisms that differentiate between L1 and L2 processing.</span></p>
<div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Peter Gordon</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Keith Nelson <</span><a href="mailto:k1n@psu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">k1n@psu.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">> wrote:</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">HI all. Here is the specific reference on the the intervention study (also discussed in the JSLHR research paper) with ASD children for idioms. Best regards, Keith N<br>
</span></p>
<ul dir="LTR"><ul dir="LTR"><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><b><font face="Times">Whyte, E. M., Nelson, K. E, & Khan, K. S. (2013). Learning of idiomatic language expressions in a group intervention for children with autism,</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b><i> <font face="Times">Autism,</font></i></b></span><span lang="en-us"><b> <font face="Times">17, 449-464.</font></b></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
</ul></ul><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From:<b> Keith Nelson</b> <</span><a href="mailto:k1n@psu.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">k1n@psu.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">><br>
Date: Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:44 AM<br>
Subject: Re: Idiom comprehension in child language<br>
To: </span><a href="mailto:info-childes@googlegroups.com" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">info-childes@googlegroups.com</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">, Keith Nelson <</span><a href="mailto:keithnelsonart@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">keithnelsonart@gmail.com</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">><br>
</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Hi all. I m attaching a JSLHR paper just out from our lab that reviews lit and presents an intervention study on idiom comprehension. Cheers, Keith </span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br>
</div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Tom Roeper <</span><a href="mailto:roeper@linguist.umass.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">roeper@linguist.umass.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">> wrote:</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Hi folks--</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">just to mention a couple of things--an example I just heard:</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"> "I know a shortcut"</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"> "well, I know a shorter cut"</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">and cases like "you're a slowpoke, but I'm a fastpoke".</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br>
</div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">I wrote a paper on idioms with Zvi Penner that appears</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">in the volume for Jüregen Weisenborn by Mouton--it</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">relates to complex sentences.</span></p>
<div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"> Work by Ellen Winner on Metaphor seems pertinent</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">to children's comprehension of them. A child with</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">a stomache who said"</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"> "there's a fireengine in my stomach"</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">or a child with a stuffed nose who said:</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"> "there's paint in my nose".</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Deviations from compositionality can still be logically</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">motivated.</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Tom Roeper</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:09 AM, Mehmet ÖZCAN <</span><a href="mailto:mehozcan20@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">mehozcan20@gmail.com</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us">> wrote:</span></p>
<ul dir="LTR"><ul dir="LTR"><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">Dear Hüseyin,</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">(I answer all of the questions you posed me personally here thinking that other colleagues might want to comment on them as well)</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Symbol">·</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font size="1"> </font></span><span lang="en-us">(Concerning your question about the location of data collection</span><span lang="en-us"><font size="1">)</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Arial">The location you are going to collect the data depends totally on the location of the study carried out by Gokmen and her student (as you mentioned) to find out the words determined as “prototype words”; watermelon which is found to be 8</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><sup><font face="Arial">th</font></sup></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial"> item on the list in Ankara may be the first or third in Urfa or Adana; or orange the first in Mediterranean Region, if you are going to construct your sentences depending on their list. In a nutshell, prototypicality is idiosyncratic and a common sense of prototypicality occurs when the personal senses of prototypicalities overlap to the sufficient extent.</font></span><span lang="en-us"> </span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Symbol">·</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font size="1"> </font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">One problem with the hypothesis: As far as I understood, you assume that idiomatic expressions are processed within the framework of compositionality theory: the meaning of a phrase or a larger linguistic unit can be grasped by knowing the meaning/function of each element the whole unit contains. This may be the case in most cases, especially when it comes to accessing the literal meaning. As you know, Compositionality Theory has been criticized for not being able to explain the processing of pragmatics in the expressions. Thus, you may revise your assumptions.</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Symbol">·</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font size="1"> </font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">Another thing to concentrate on may be the prototypicality of the idiomatic expression (among other idiomatic expressions) itself rather than the expressions’ containing prototypical elements. You know, </font></span><span lang="en-us"><i></i></span><span lang="en-us"><i><font face="Arial">some birds are birder than other birds</font></i></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">. Some idiomatic expressions may have some prototypical features structurally or regarding other qualities.</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Symbol">·</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font size="1"> </font></span><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">Integrating infant directed speech to this study would be too much to my understanding. You will have to carry out longitudinal observations to measure the exposition of a child to idiomatic expressions or the words in the list determined by the previous studies. </font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"></span><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial">I am looking forward to hearing about the findings of your demanding study. Good luck in all ways.</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><div>
<span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div>
</ul></ul><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 12:56:54 AM UTC+3, </span><a href="mailto:huy...@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">huy...@gmail.com</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us"> wrote:</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Georgia">Dear all,<br>
<br>
First of all, I would like to express my excitement about posting my first question in this group (Of course, after reading the older posts).<br>
<br>
I have been reading about Prototype Theory of Eleanor Rosch, which is the point of departure for my M.A thesis, within the frame of child language development. Then I suddenly found myself trying to design steps for (an) experiment(s) in idiom comprehension. I am partly aware of the literature in figurative language processing (thanks to the comprehensive chapter by Gibbs and Colston in</font></span><span lang="en-us"> </span><a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780123693747" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Georgia">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780123693747</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Georgia">). So my questions are as follows:</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Symbol">·<font face="Courier New"> </font></font></span><span lang="en-us"> <font color="#444444" face="Georgia">What is the direction of research in idiom comprehension in child language?</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Symbol">·<font face="Courier New"> </font></font> <font color="#444444" face="Georgia">Could you suggest me some seminal works in idiom comprehension, or more generally figurative language?</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Symbol">·<font face="Courier New"> </font></font> <font color="#444444" face="Georgia">Is there anyone to help me revise my experimental design?</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Symbol">·<font face="Courier New"> </font></font> <font color="#444444" face="Georgia">What kind of an effect could prototypicality of concepts in idioms have on children's comprehension? (Feel free to share your criticism or advice, if you prefer to look at this research question from another perspective.)</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Symbol">·<font face="Courier New"> </font></font> <font color="#444444" face="Georgia">A third research field having just popped into my mind is child directed speech. In what way can I integrate it into my research?</font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Georgia">Thanks,</font></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font color="#444444" face="Georgia">Huseyin</font></span><span lang="en-us"></span></p><p dir="LTR">
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<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><br>
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</span></p><div><span lang="en-us"></span><br></div><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">-- </span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Peter Gordon, Associate Professor</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Biobehavioral Sciences Department, Box 180</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Teachers College, Columbia University</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">1152 Thorndike Hall</span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">525 W120th St. </span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">New York, NY 10027</span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Phone: <a href="tel:212%20678-8162" value="+12126788162" target="_blank">212 678-8162</a></span></p><p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Fax: <a href="tel:212%20678-8233" value="+12126788233" target="_blank">212 678-8233</a></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">E-mail: </span><a href="mailto:pgordon@tc.edu" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">pgordon@tc.edu</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us">Web Page:</span><a href="http://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/index.htm?facid=pg328" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><u><font color="#0000FF">http://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/index.htm?facid=pg328</font></u></span><span lang="en-us"></span></a><span lang="en-us"></span></p>
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</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Peter Gordon, Associate Professor<div>Biobehavioral Sciences Department, Box 180</div><div>Teachers College, Columbia University</div>
<div>1152 Thorndike Hall</div><div>525 W120th St. </div><div>New York, NY 10027</div><div>Phone: <a href="tel:212%20678-8162" value="+12126788162" target="_blank">212 678-8162</a></div><div>Fax: <a href="tel:212%20678-8233" value="+12126788233" target="_blank">212 678-8233</a></div>
<div>E-mail: <a href="mailto:pgordon@tc.edu" target="_blank">pgordon@tc.edu</a></div>
<div>Web Page:<a href="http://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/index.htm?facid=pg328" target="_blank">http://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/index.htm?facid=pg328</a></div><div><br></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
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