From HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Tue Oct 10 19:22:44 2000 From: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:22:44 -0400 Subject: [language] Quantification and Reconstruction Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Here is an example of what might be a start of reconstruction for Turkic languages. Turkish Kazak Uighur ------- ------ ------ useful faydali paydali paydilig notebook defter dapter daptar idea fikir pikir pikir elephant fil pil pil lid kapak qaqpaq qapqaq book kitap kitap kitab cost paha bagha baha cook pishir pisir pishur flea pire bUrge bUrga Now let us reconstruct what prototurkic was for the /pbf/ that we see in the words above. Method 1:: There must have been a consonant cluster /pf/. In Turkish pf > f and in Kazak and Uighur pf>p. Doerfer does this when he reconstructs *pokurz (ox,bull). From this, it is possible to derive OkUz and hOkUr. Method 2:: There were two p's in Turkic, p1 and p2. Thus all p1 > p in all Turkic languages but p2>p in Kazak and Uighur and p2> f in Turkish. We can find such words attested in various languages, for example, a name like Pfeister, or pflug. This also seems to be a popular mode of reconstruction, and Turkic is allegedly have had l1,l2,r1,and r2. Method 3:: There was a special phoneme in Turkic languages that was neither p, nor f, nor even a bilabial fricative like in Japanese. It was similar to the IE larygeals except it was a cross between a fricative and a plosive and a cross between a bilabial and a labio-dental. Let's call this /$/. This sound gave rise to Turkic p, and f depending on what followed this sound. In some cases it became p in all Turkic. In other cases it became f in Turkish. The latter case might have been due to an accent which Turkish had innovated. This seems to be important for reconstruction of *PIE. The Hittite laryngeals might belong to this method. Method 4::: Turkic did not have an /f/. The /f/s that were in Arabic and Farsi that Turkic borrowed became /p/. However in Anatolian Turkish because of the long period of living amongst people who had /f/ (Iranians, Kurds, Arabs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians) Turkish eventually did pick up an /f/. This was accomplished in about 150 years in Kazak because, the people became bilingual (Russian as a second language). Of course, the older words borrowed from Farsi/Arabic did not change. It is the Russian words that were copied that have the /f/ in them. i.e. physics fizik fizika fizika geography cografya geografiya jughrapiya paralysis felch paralich palachlik This also happens to be the truth of what happened. This we know, because it happened in historical times, and Arabic and Farsi still exist. What if Farsi was a dead language. Ditto for Arabic and its relatives, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc, and if Akkadian was not known. What would have been the results of reconstruction? What reasons are there to prefer various rules (heuristics) as above? I think these are all very interesting questions which could possibly be quantifiable. This does not seem to be used at all in reconstruction. If it is used, it does not seem to be used often. I call this the "getting rich" scenario. PS. Please notice that this is cross-posted. I'd prefer that the discussion continue on the Language list probably because I think it belongs there. The real questions are not really Turkic. That was merely an example. -- ....Mark hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Tue Oct 24 00:14:05 2000 From: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:14:05 -0400 Subject: [language] Palaeolithic discovery in Japan Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> On last night's NHK news and in today's JAPAN TIMES, Japanese archaeologists announced the discovery of what is probably the oldest structure in the world---at least 600,000 years old. It was found at the site of Kamitakamori in Miyage Prefecture. Evidence for a round structure, nearly 2 m in diameter was found with evidence for post-holes. Several pits were also found, and one contained stone tools. Dating is based on tephra layers. An English language article can be found at: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20001024a1.htm ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Tue Oct 10 19:22:44 2000 From: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 15:22:44 -0400 Subject: [language] Quantification and Reconstruction Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Here is an example of what might be a start of reconstruction for Turkic languages. Turkish Kazak Uighur ------- ------ ------ useful faydali paydali paydilig notebook defter dapter daptar idea fikir pikir pikir elephant fil pil pil lid kapak qaqpaq qapqaq book kitap kitap kitab cost paha bagha baha cook pishir pisir pishur flea pire bUrge bUrga Now let us reconstruct what prototurkic was for the /pbf/ that we see in the words above. Method 1:: There must have been a consonant cluster /pf/. In Turkish pf > f and in Kazak and Uighur pf>p. Doerfer does this when he reconstructs *pokurz (ox,bull). From this, it is possible to derive OkUz and hOkUr. Method 2:: There were two p's in Turkic, p1 and p2. Thus all p1 > p in all Turkic languages but p2>p in Kazak and Uighur and p2> f in Turkish. We can find such words attested in various languages, for example, a name like Pfeister, or pflug. This also seems to be a popular mode of reconstruction, and Turkic is allegedly have had l1,l2,r1,and r2. Method 3:: There was a special phoneme in Turkic languages that was neither p, nor f, nor even a bilabial fricative like in Japanese. It was similar to the IE larygeals except it was a cross between a fricative and a plosive and a cross between a bilabial and a labio-dental. Let's call this /$/. This sound gave rise to Turkic p, and f depending on what followed this sound. In some cases it became p in all Turkic. In other cases it became f in Turkish. The latter case might have been due to an accent which Turkish had innovated. This seems to be important for reconstruction of *PIE. The Hittite laryngeals might belong to this method. Method 4::: Turkic did not have an /f/. The /f/s that were in Arabic and Farsi that Turkic borrowed became /p/. However in Anatolian Turkish because of the long period of living amongst people who had /f/ (Iranians, Kurds, Arabs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Armenians) Turkish eventually did pick up an /f/. This was accomplished in about 150 years in Kazak because, the people became bilingual (Russian as a second language). Of course, the older words borrowed from Farsi/Arabic did not change. It is the Russian words that were copied that have the /f/ in them. i.e. physics fizik fizika fizika geography cografya geografiya jughrapiya paralysis felch paralich palachlik This also happens to be the truth of what happened. This we know, because it happened in historical times, and Arabic and Farsi still exist. What if Farsi was a dead language. Ditto for Arabic and its relatives, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc, and if Akkadian was not known. What would have been the results of reconstruction? What reasons are there to prefer various rules (heuristics) as above? I think these are all very interesting questions which could possibly be quantifiable. This does not seem to be used at all in reconstruction. If it is used, it does not seem to be used often. I call this the "getting rich" scenario. PS. Please notice that this is cross-posted. I'd prefer that the discussion continue on the Language list probably because I think it belongs there. The real questions are not really Turkic. That was merely an example. -- ....Mark hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Tue Oct 24 00:14:05 2000 From: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:14:05 -0400 Subject: [language] Palaeolithic discovery in Japan Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> On last night's NHK news and in today's JAPAN TIMES, Japanese archaeologists announced the discovery of what is probably the oldest structure in the world---at least 600,000 years old. It was found at the site of Kamitakamori in Miyage Prefecture. Evidence for a round structure, nearly 2 m in diameter was found with evidence for post-holes. Several pits were also found, and one contained stone tools. Dating is based on tephra layers. An English language article can be found at: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20001024a1.htm ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu