From HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Tue May 1 16:29:15 2001 From: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:29:15 -0400 Subject: [language] Re: [Fwd: bez, bUz, burush] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Yusuf B Gursey wrote: > > as Umit has pointed out it entered as mongolian as bo"s with -s not -r > representing turkic -z so it can't be ancient. Sound changes usually go from unvoiced to voiced, thus we'd expect s > z. > now it is not "just one word". there are also numerous examples > of *dh* > z > r. kashgari (11th cent.) mentions the change > *dh* > z . a specific example given is a*dh*aq > azaq (probably > in actual pronounciation azax or azag~). there is also the azaq sea > (probably for a*dh*aq, i.e "foot" referring to the sea of azov). > however in chuvash it is ura~ (through *azIg~). another well known > loan exhibiting such *dh* > > r is middle persian a:*dh*i:na, > "friday" in volga bulghar i:rne, chuvash erne ("sunday" ?). > > the volghabulghars had trade and contacts with iranian speaking > khwarezm. The word is ayak in common Turkic so what I knew from reading was that /dh/ > y. But this is not the main problem at all. > > allegedly > > both come from Arabic bazz and ultimately from Greek byssos. > > it ultimately comes from ancient egyptian, according to rona tas > "chuvash studies". This is the main problem. See, there must have been a time in which weaving of clothing was invented. The earliest 'skirt' was found somewhere in the Mideast and the article said that it was a grass-skirt. I think that was circa 9,000 BC or so. So somewhere between then and now, humanity learned to twirl wool to get thread and then to weave it. The problem is that the word "bur" means "to rotate, to twirl". Secondly, as Dr. Tuna has shown convincincgly and as I demonstrated in my paper at the conference in Turkey, there are very ancient/archaic words in Turkic that go back to Sumerian or Mideast. For some reason the words are more archaic and the likelihood is that the original form is preserved. So Egyptian, Greek, Arabic forms are all from a version in which the sound was /r/ or /dh/ which changed to /r/. It does not also sound unreal to relate 'bur' to 'bu' (to grow, as in plants growing), especially if the original form was from grass. Also see below. > > > > However, the word for wrinkling in Turkish is burush. I think this has > > to be > > taken into consideration, and I think that as in other such pairs such > > as yUz/yUrU, and kOr/kOz, this is related to bUz. The word bez was > > you have to be careful about these pairs. they may be due to > different suffixes or may be unrelated, as possibly yUrU= > and yUz= As I already wrote this in Altainet. The likelihood is that the original verbal suffix in Turkic (or at least the earlier one) was -r or -rV not -lV as it is today. The word yUrU/cUrU seems to be an early form and thus derives from the root cU/yU. Since we know that Turkic c and y go back to d, this means the root was 'du'. That is the word for 'to walk' in Sumerian. And it originally could have meant travel in or via water since yul is "spring, water, brook". And yUz/cUz means "to swim". So it probably referred to early transportation via water and later came to be applied to land transport. We can see this from 'yol' (road). All fits together neatly. -- ....Mark hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Sat May 5 18:58:41 2001 From: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 14:58:41 -0400 Subject: [language] pilek Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Chuvash pilek (five) is related likely to CT bilek (wrist, arm) which likely originally meant hand (and like Farsi penj) gave the word for 5. Secondly, it is funny that they would take a word like "besh" and turn it into "pilek". So not only did "sh" become "r", but "b" became "p" and they added -ek for good measure. This is what is claimed. Thus similarly pir is likely the original form of bez (bOz) and likely gave rise to byssos, and bazz. The original form was likely related to "bur" and thus to "pir" (as in Chuvash). BTW, what is the word in Egyptian? Greek byssos and Arabic bazz are supposed to go back to original Egyptian? Similarly, the word for 7 (yedi, ceti, yetti) likely carries the original meaning of the word, i.e. "enough", "sufficient", "end", since that is the number of days in a week. Thus Chuvash s'itte is likely related to Hebrew, and IE for seven, and henc is older than CT (common Turkic) yedi/ceti/yetti. In the same way, the word for axe (bolek, balag, balta) etc is still in Turkic while the words pelekku and pelekus in Akkadian and Greek are only assumed to have come from a root which "must have existed". The word "bOl" still exists in Turkic and means "to cleave, to split, to divide". Furthermore the word "balta" (likely related to polat (steel)) is from the same root. The word "bile" (to sharpen) does not come from "bil" (to know) but is related to axe. These follow the old form "chalqi" (scythe) whereas the Turkish "chelik" (steel) is like orak (sickle). Obviously, "or" (to reap) is related to harvesting and dozen words or so relate it to the Mideast specifically Sumerian purely on the basis of the single root "or". I have gone over all these already too many times to be convinced by arguments like Sari Cizmeli Mehmet aga wrote this, S*kimbash Salih wrote that, etc etc. No matter what kind of rationalizations are used the truth peers out. Turkic for some strange reason happens to contain archaic words and meanings. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Thu May 10 14:18:46 2001 From: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:18:46 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: [evol-psych] Genome data helps reveal human population shifts] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> If this is true, then all European languages ultimately go back to a single language and spread from that. -------------------------------------------------------- Posted at 8:47 p.m. EDT Wednesday, May 9, 2001 Genome data helps reveal human population shifts By DAVID L. CHANDLER c.2001 The Boston Globe Most people of northern European ancestry are probably descended from a tiny prehistoric population of as few as 50 people, according to researchers at the Whitehead Institute in Cambridge, Mass. In a finding that could also have important implications for the discovery of genetic diseases, researchers used a new technique made possible by the human genome project to determine that Northern Europeans went through a so-called "population bottleneck" less than 53,000 years ago. While other research has shown signs of such a bottleneck in human prehistory, those were based on weak evidence, said David Reich, lead author of a paper on the new research being published in the current journal Nature. "This really demonstrates strongly that such an event occurred," he said. Full text: http://www.charlotte.com/topnews/pub/human.htm ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Tue May 1 16:29:15 2001 From: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:29:15 -0400 Subject: [language] Re: [Fwd: bez, bUz, burush] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Yusuf B Gursey wrote: > > as Umit has pointed out it entered as mongolian as bo"s with -s not -r > representing turkic -z so it can't be ancient. Sound changes usually go from unvoiced to voiced, thus we'd expect s > z. > now it is not "just one word". there are also numerous examples > of *dh* > z > r. kashgari (11th cent.) mentions the change > *dh* > z . a specific example given is a*dh*aq > azaq (probably > in actual pronounciation azax or azag~). there is also the azaq sea > (probably for a*dh*aq, i.e "foot" referring to the sea of azov). > however in chuvash it is ura~ (through *azIg~). another well known > loan exhibiting such *dh* > > r is middle persian a:*dh*i:na, > "friday" in volga bulghar i:rne, chuvash erne ("sunday" ?). > > the volghabulghars had trade and contacts with iranian speaking > khwarezm. The word is ayak in common Turkic so what I knew from reading was that /dh/ > y. But this is not the main problem at all. > > allegedly > > both come from Arabic bazz and ultimately from Greek byssos. > > it ultimately comes from ancient egyptian, according to rona tas > "chuvash studies". This is the main problem. See, there must have been a time in which weaving of clothing was invented. The earliest 'skirt' was found somewhere in the Mideast and the article said that it was a grass-skirt. I think that was circa 9,000 BC or so. So somewhere between then and now, humanity learned to twirl wool to get thread and then to weave it. The problem is that the word "bur" means "to rotate, to twirl". Secondly, as Dr. Tuna has shown convincincgly and as I demonstrated in my paper at the conference in Turkey, there are very ancient/archaic words in Turkic that go back to Sumerian or Mideast. For some reason the words are more archaic and the likelihood is that the original form is preserved. So Egyptian, Greek, Arabic forms are all from a version in which the sound was /r/ or /dh/ which changed to /r/. It does not also sound unreal to relate 'bur' to 'bu' (to grow, as in plants growing), especially if the original form was from grass. Also see below. > > > > However, the word for wrinkling in Turkish is burush. I think this has > > to be > > taken into consideration, and I think that as in other such pairs such > > as yUz/yUrU, and kOr/kOz, this is related to bUz. The word bez was > > you have to be careful about these pairs. they may be due to > different suffixes or may be unrelated, as possibly yUrU= > and yUz= As I already wrote this in Altainet. The likelihood is that the original verbal suffix in Turkic (or at least the earlier one) was -r or -rV not -lV as it is today. The word yUrU/cUrU seems to be an early form and thus derives from the root cU/yU. Since we know that Turkic c and y go back to d, this means the root was 'du'. That is the word for 'to walk' in Sumerian. And it originally could have meant travel in or via water since yul is "spring, water, brook". And yUz/cUz means "to swim". So it probably referred to early transportation via water and later came to be applied to land transport. We can see this from 'yol' (road). All fits together neatly. -- ....Mark hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Sat May 5 18:58:41 2001 From: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 14:58:41 -0400 Subject: [language] pilek Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Chuvash pilek (five) is related likely to CT bilek (wrist, arm) which likely originally meant hand (and like Farsi penj) gave the word for 5. Secondly, it is funny that they would take a word like "besh" and turn it into "pilek". So not only did "sh" become "r", but "b" became "p" and they added -ek for good measure. This is what is claimed. Thus similarly pir is likely the original form of bez (bOz) and likely gave rise to byssos, and bazz. The original form was likely related to "bur" and thus to "pir" (as in Chuvash). BTW, what is the word in Egyptian? Greek byssos and Arabic bazz are supposed to go back to original Egyptian? Similarly, the word for 7 (yedi, ceti, yetti) likely carries the original meaning of the word, i.e. "enough", "sufficient", "end", since that is the number of days in a week. Thus Chuvash s'itte is likely related to Hebrew, and IE for seven, and henc is older than CT (common Turkic) yedi/ceti/yetti. In the same way, the word for axe (bolek, balag, balta) etc is still in Turkic while the words pelekku and pelekus in Akkadian and Greek are only assumed to have come from a root which "must have existed". The word "bOl" still exists in Turkic and means "to cleave, to split, to divide". Furthermore the word "balta" (likely related to polat (steel)) is from the same root. The word "bile" (to sharpen) does not come from "bil" (to know) but is related to axe. These follow the old form "chalqi" (scythe) whereas the Turkish "chelik" (steel) is like orak (sickle). Obviously, "or" (to reap) is related to harvesting and dozen words or so relate it to the Mideast specifically Sumerian purely on the basis of the single root "or". I have gone over all these already too many times to be convinced by arguments like Sari Cizmeli Mehmet aga wrote this, S*kimbash Salih wrote that, etc etc. No matter what kind of rationalizations are used the truth peers out. Turkic for some strange reason happens to contain archaic words and meanings. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Thu May 10 14:18:46 2001 From: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu (H. Mark Hubey) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:18:46 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: [evol-psych] Genome data helps reveal human population shifts] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> If this is true, then all European languages ultimately go back to a single language and spread from that. -------------------------------------------------------- Posted at 8:47 p.m. EDT Wednesday, May 9, 2001 Genome data helps reveal human population shifts By DAVID L. CHANDLER c.2001 The Boston Globe Most people of northern European ancestry are probably descended from a tiny prehistoric population of as few as 50 people, according to researchers at the Whitehead Institute in Cambridge, Mass. In a finding that could also have important implications for the discovery of genetic diseases, researchers used a new technique made possible by the human genome project to determine that Northern Europeans went through a so-called "population bottleneck" less than 53,000 years ago. While other research has shown signs of such a bottleneck in human prehistory, those were based on weak evidence, said David Reich, lead author of a paper on the new research being published in the current journal Nature. "This really demonstrates strongly that such an event occurred," he said. Full text: http://www.charlotte.com/topnews/pub/human.htm ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu