From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 5 15:07:02 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 11:07:02 -0400 Subject: [language] What sound change can explain this? Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Common Turkic kan (blood); Chuvash yun (blood) [Krueger61:241] ; Common Turkic kar, (snow); Chuvash yur (snow) [Krueger61:242]. PS. *PIE *sang (blood). Persian xun (blood). -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Mon May 6 00:33:38 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:33:38 -0400 Subject: [language] Re: What sound change can explain this? Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Yusuf B Gursey wrote: > > > > Common Turkic kan (blood); > > Chuvash yun (blood) [Krueger61:241] ; > > > > regular developments from *q(i)a:n > > labialization of *a: weakening of q(i) to x(i) and palatization, > in chuvash. If the original had a *qi- perhaps this word was also related to "red". In any case, labialization can make a>u, and weakening makes q > x. How does x > y? > > s > h , s > x , z > x is known in iranian. That also shows up obviously in Common Turkic and Bolgaric, and I don't believe Common Turkic s changed to Bolgaric h. It looks like k > h , and k > s or t>k>h and t>s. Ditto for s > x. Obviously z> x is really s>z and something >....> h. I have asked for years for an attestation in a single language of k>s. Is there one? Or do they show up in sister languages? -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Tue May 7 13:38:37 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:38:37 -0400 Subject: [language] A Little Action Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> 1. sar (to write) Sumerian 2. s'Ir (to write) Chuvash (Bolgaric Turkic, also called l~r Turkic) 3. sIz (to draw) Karachay-Balkar (Kipchak Turkic) 4. saz (clay) Kar-Balk 5. sadIr (bog, clay) Kar-Balk 6. yaz (to write) Turkish 7. caz (to write) Kar-Balk Secondary meaning of yaz/caz is "to roll, to flatten, to spread as in rolling dough or rolling clay). 8. sar (to wrap) Turkish. 9. ser (to spread) Turkish Now "rolling dough" is completely unconnected with "writing", or is it? "Rolling dough" is completely unconnected with "clay" or is it? "Drawing" is completely unconnected with "writing", or is it? "To wrap" is completely unconnected with "writing" or is it? "To spread" is completely unconnected with "writing" or is it? Among others one sees here dh>d, (sadIr), dh > r (sar) and dh>z (saz). There are other examples in Turkic and I feel confident that zetaization and rhotacization are solved. The rule is I. dh > {d,r,z,y} Many of these can be found in Turkic, since dh exists in Turkut (Clauson). In parallel with this, using symmetry arguments (and solving similar problems) there is II> th > {t,l,s/sh,w} + {dh} The + is to be read as set union. The s/sh is there because whatever this change was about, it has apparently never completed, at least in Turkic. These laws hold for other languages in the ancient Mideast including Akkadian, Sumerian, and Hittite. As for why phonetic forms have small distances whereas the semantic forms seem to have large distances (dissimilarities) there is an obvious connection. I think some on the Indo-Iranian list have already seen it. More to follow. PS. Is there a clearly-attested case of k>s, something which is very definitive and something which is definitely not a case of t>s and t>k which looks like k=s and which at least one person has interpreted as k>s. I have been asking this question for many years, and there is a very good reason for it. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Tue May 7 23:27:58 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 19:27:58 -0400 Subject: [language] k>s Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> I just read on Khazaria news the word "khagan" and the twin rulership system and recalled the doublet in karachay-balkar "kaghun soghun" which seems to me to be "kagan shogun". I can't tell how it got to Japan (if it did), but it looks like it did. And here is that k=s problem again. I also read in at least a few places that t>s is common. What I cannot tell is if k=s is really a case of t>k and t>s. I would like a clear-cut historically observed precise example of a k>s change in a single language, unperturbed by new language learners. Still looking. Can anyone point in some direction? PS. Yusuf, here is why The Sardinian-Latin case is like the izafet construction in Ottoman. Officially Ottoman was Turkish but let's see and we can see why the Sardinian-Latin case is not sufficient. I want a smoking gun. Here are a few lines from Oztuna p. 180 vol 6 Shems-i asr idi asrda shemsin ZIlli memdud olur, zamani kasir Tac-u tahtiyle fahreder beyler Fahrederdi aninla tac-u serir. Here are the "Turkish" words line by line ..idi ... ...olur ... ... -eder beyler ...aninla... serir. Even the word fahreder is not Turkish; that is like English "make-perestroika" (imagine it is a single word); is that English? The point is that the Izafet construction (a morpological feature of Ottoman) is not Turkish at all and disappeared. It was not because the Turkmen peasants (Turks!) forgot it. It never existed in their language. It only existed in the court Ottoman language. So one cannot say that Ottoman Turkish "changed" to modern Turkish literally. Two related languages converged and parts of Ottoman just got dumped. I don't want too many unknowns. I want the smoking gun. I have no idea what Sardinian was like, and I have no ideas if what passes for Sardinian was not some local aberration used by Roman governors doing their duty in Sardinia. I have no idea what their (the peasants') language was like and how and why it changed. Besides Latin and Sardinian are not the same language. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 8 00:54:14 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 20:54:14 -0400 Subject: [language] Sorry for the absence Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Last time I posted to Indo-Iranian these lines (more or less): Sumerian sar ’schreiben’ (MSL, III, 113), ’to write’ (Grd. 403) ~ šar id. Turkic. yaz- ’ şaşmak, yanılmak, çözmek, yazmak’ [to write with other meanings] (DLT, I, 192; II, 20, III, 59); Let us look at Karachay-Balkar (a Kipchak Turkic, more or less). sadır bog saz I 1. clay ; 2. fig. yellow, pale; earthy (about a person); sazlı clay; ~ cer clay ground sazak Turkish (clay, bog, marsh) Chuvash s'ır to write[Krueger61:231]; sız 1) to draw; 2) to write, scribble; 4) fig. to steal; 5) to throw tall tales, exaggarate caz I to write caz II 1) to roll 2) to forge, flatten; laminate (iron) caz III to calm, to console And Turkish Turkish yaz to write; Turkish çiz to draw; Turkish ser, to lay flat, to spread Turkish sar, to wrap --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the explanation, as many of you have already guessed is: >From Chuvash Turkic we can clearly see the outline of the changes in the word. The word in Chuvash is s'ır*. With the well known Turkic equavalence of r and z, we obtain s'ız. The Karachay-Balkar for ‘to draw’ is the root sız, which in Turkish is çiz. The roots of the word for writing in Karachay-Balkar and Turkish are caz and yaz respectively. If all Turkic c/y come from *d, then this is problematic since the Sumerian should be *dar. However, the words in Sumerian date from different times, thus the changes that took place could have already taken place in the Mideast/Caucasus region before this change. Besides all this presumably the *d would go back to a *t and we should look for related words that begin with *t which we have (see the list above.) And of course, the ptk changes could also show *k. Phonetically, s' seems closer to c, than to y, therefore if the c/y changes took place in Turkic, then this is evidence for the c>y view. Comparison of Chuvash to Common Turkic shows many correspondances of s' and c. *Bolgaric (Chuvash) has a three was s(h)ibilance, s, s', and sh. (using ASCII representations which hopefully will be clear). Obviously this parallels Arabic s, sh, and s. (emphatic). Ooops, I almost forgot. The words bog (where clay may come from), clay (used in cuneiform), drawing (likely what "writing" was called by those who invented it), caz/yaz (to flatten viscoelastic materials such as clay, dough, and iron (after heating)), caz/yaz (to write), sar (to wrap), and ser (to spread, flatten out) obviously are all (except for 'to write') activities related to writing. And in all likelihood, those who borrowed the word would simply have the word "to write" but those who practiced it and indulged in it would have drawn the word out of the activities connected with writing. It is clear that Turkic preserves these words in pristine form. -------------------------------------------------------- And now let us add some more meat to the stew.' Please pardon my analogical and metaphorical extensions. Being a real scientist and using precise words as required whenever I do real science, when I see sloppy work parading around as science with all the pompous pretensions inherent in such play-work, I feel the urge to experience the freedom that one expects from being released of the constraints imposed by rules and methodology of "real science" and thus feel an urge to indulge in such freedoms. Let us now get on with real work. Sumerian silañ, sila11: to knead (dough or clay); to slay. #123. Hittite šalk “to knead” [GH-P:96]; [# refers to the numbering scheme in my upcoming book “ProtoTurkic and Hittite”. Let us also note that the second consonant is d, z, r, and t (except for Hittite and Sumerian sila, salk).. How is this possible? Let us recall th-->{t,l,s/sh,w} and dh-->{d,r,z,y}. One can now easily see the sound changes; th>t in one branch (Akkadian, Hittite, etc), and th>dh>r>z in Turkic. Let us also recall that Turkic is circa modern era (5,000 years after Sumerian), Akkadian is close to Sumerian era thus one change, th>t. Hittite is also close thus th>t. Now in addition to the problem of k>s(?) we have one more th>t (?) or t>th (?). This is a deep theoretical problem for historical linguistics and I do not wish to reveal its importance right now, but I have been thinking about it about as long as k>s (?). Let us also recall that Chuvash is in the Ural mountains and it got tucked away and preserved the words in magnificent isolation. Karachay-Balkar homeland is near Mount Elbruz, which along with Mount Kazbek are two of the highest mountains in Europe. Karachay-Balkar also preserves old Bolgaric words and some of the older words from the second Kipchak layer, unlike Turkish which got swamped by Farsi affectation by its upper classes who went thru Iran (Seljuks). Turkish also went thru a soaking bath of Arabic. To belabor the obvious, why are these words related? Anyone who knows anything about the ancient Mideast immediately knows. Clay was dredged from marshes/bogs or was dug up from the earth, mixed with water, then kneaded, flattened/rolled (as with a rolling pin), then written on (drawn on, incized) and then dried. Thus it was either baked in an oven (cooked?), or sun-baked, heated etc. And that is the obvious reason why all of these words are the way they are. This is obviously further proof (actually "evidence" not "proof", but I don't want linguists who don't know the difference to assume that if I use "evidence" my case is weaker) that the words go back far since the first writing was cuneiform, that is scratched/dug onto clay tablets. Furthermore, the second meaning, that of flattening, rolling is very strange for having the same phonetic form as writing, unless, it had something to do with working with a dough-like substance (i.e. clay) and flattening and rolling it in preparation for incising it. . Cylinders with engravings were used by Sumerians which they would “roll” over clay and they would serve as kind of “signature” of the person, hence the “rolling” and ‘wrapping”, along with “spreading” meanings of the related words in Turkic. Obviously, bog, marsh, clay etc are related to the material used, and the “rolling/spreading” being the same word as “writing” shows that these words were NOT borrowed into Turkic but came from the very people who were engaged in using this new technology. Let us continue. Now to add some spice to the meat and stew: §384. Hatrai* ‘write, send written word (about), report, declare, order, despatch’ (ŠAP?RU ‘send’ [not ŠATA:RU ‘write’] [Puhvel-3-91:269]; Hier. Hatur ‘letter’, Hatura(i) ‘write’ [Puhvel-3-91:273]; Hatrai denotes using writing as a form of communication, not as the physical act of inscribing (the latter being expressed by gulš-, Hazziya- [s.v. Hat(t)], or Hattarai- [s.v. Hattara]). It is denominative from a prehistoric noun *Hatra (cf. tarmai ‘to nail’ from tarma ‘nail’) meaning a piece of writing derived from Hat(t) (cf. e.g. Hupra ‘woven garment’ from *Hwebh). [Puhvel-3-91:273]; [Notice how everything is always claimed to be IE. No wonder I am always ranting against IEanists!] [Note: I use UC h i.e H for Hittite laryngeal which is represented by that strange h-looking letter. I can't find my Pullum et al otherwise I would have given you its name. HMH] [The sign § is my way of keeping track from which of the two Hittite dictionaries the word came e.g. Puhvel or Guterbock et al]. [*The suffix -ra is one of the verbal suffixes Turkic uses. The common one is actually -lV, but both -rV, and -nV are used and show up in words, e.g. oyna, kayna, ku're, etc. I hope everyone has noticed the verbal suffixes of Hittite in this paragraph e.g. Hatra, tarmai.] Karachay-Balkar xat handwriting, calligraphy (Siunchev and Tenishev). Wow, Turkic xat! Sounds a lot like Hat, doesn't it? We seem to be really going somewhere. For other words on writing, and its relationship to the Ancient Mideast, see the beginning. Chuvash has basically conserved Sumerian for writing intact. Flattening clay in preparation for writing has been preserved in Turkic caz/yaz (to write) also. We should also note the Akkadian ŠATA:RU ‘write’] [Puhvel-3-91:269]; We have been told by Turcologists (at least some of them) that Common Turkic (CT also called ş~z Turkic) s changed to h in Bolgaric/Chuvash (also called l~r Turkic). They also claim that this only happened a thousand years ago or thereabouts. There is a similar s=h equivalence in Iranian languages, but they don’t care about Turkic. They don't seem to care much about anything else either. Here we see Hittite (Hat-*) Akkadian ŠAT-, and Turkic xat. What else do we need? We need to know why these words are the way they are and where they came from. [Recall what I posted only a week ago: e.g. the words for fire *athur, *athar, *adhar (as in adhar patagan (Azerbaijan), and even Egyptian atun (as in Akhen-atun), and that Turkic as nominal suffixes of the type -Vr, and -Vn, etc. and that Hittite paHHur is really pa-aHHur. Thus we see that Hittite H is magnificently matching the *th I proposed. Furthermore I also showed that Sanskrit asan (meat) seems to be nothing more than protoTurkic "as" (Chuvash meat) with the typical old Turkic suffix -Vn (and also -Vr). There are also -Vm but that for later.And finally recall that these are merely extensions of Turkic ot (fire) and Sumerian ut(u) (fire, sun). ] Let us also recall, that there are claims of k=s, and k>h So is it true that k>s? Probably not. Assume that k>s. Then circa 3,000 BC we have s in Sumerian. We also have Š in Akkadian a little later. And yet circa 1,500 BC we have H in Hittite. So if k>s and k>H, and if we have H in Hittite circa 1,500 BC. Hhow long did Hittite preserve the H? Say k>s circa 4,000 BC. Then suppose in Hittite k>H circa 4,000 BC. How did Hittite preserve H for 2500 years no change? If sounds can be preserved for 1500 years right in the thick of the main theater of history how can it be said that relationships of languages disappear "after a few thousand years"? (For this asinine comment see Larry Trask's post on evol-psych. The poor slob has not yet learned not to boast that is background is "quantitive" and then skip out on my friendly invitation to join "Language", even after I invited him at least twice in front of thousands of readers of evol-psych.] [More on this later.] [Digression: What probably happened was t>k>H in one branch, and t>th> s in another branch. We (reader and writer, not the “royal we”) will leave this for later. Obviously, science is a cooperative venture and scientists write this way. That is how I learned to write this way. I wish some of the “pompous ignoramii” in linguistics would learn to write like human beings.] Well, we need a smoking gun. Actually, I need a smoking gun, and will keep looking. That is how science is done. Let’s ignore it for now. Let us also add in: satır (line of writing, Turkish < Arabic) But the word for “writing” in Arabic does not seem to be from the s-root. It is well known that it is KTB. Aha, the triconsonantal root. But wait, Clauson, the well-known and respected Turcologist arranged his book so that Turkic words were written as triconsonantal roots because according tohim, there is a “bewildering” variety of vowels in Turkic and very hard to sort out. We can look at Semitic later. But Akkadian which is much earlier than Arabic has ŠATA:RU which although sounds a lot lilke satır, is certainly not KTB which is the root in Arabic (and in many other Semitic languages). I will post on this later. I am always thorough, just like a real scientist. Damn! That k>s problem again. No wonder I have been asking about this for years. I asked on sci.lang, and on other lists. Still no solution. No hope from linguists. I think this is too long already. A few days is needed to digest. George, are you still there? How do you feel about an amateur doing this? -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 8 05:36:39 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 01:36:39 -0400 Subject: [language] IE word for tongue Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> I just found something very interesting and which is relevant. It is from Hock, Principles of Hist Ling, p. 304 I will first copy some material and then point out the obvious. --------------------------------- A case in point is the IE word for 'tongue'..... we can be sure that there must have been a word for 'tongue' in IE. ... However as far as phonological shape of this word is concerned (especially of its initial consonant) the comparative evidence is quite uncertain..... [Leaving out [most] diacritical marks] (49) Oscan fangva Lat. lingua OLat. dingua OIr teng(a)e Gmc *tungwo: OCS jezyku Lith. liezuvis Skt. jihva Av. hizu Toch. B. kantwo ------------------------------------------------- There are more interesting comments that follow this but maybe another time. First, throw out Old Church Slavonic. That is a clear-cut case of borrowing (of all languages) from Turkic. The root in Oguz is yaz, and in Kipchak caz/jaz. Today's Turkish yazı is from an earlier *yazık/*yazıgh. It might even exist exactly in this form in Clauson. The word for tongue in Turkic is 'til' and that for tooth is 'tish'. Secondly, Anttila has a famous example of "ti" in Sumerian and why and how it means both "arrow" and "life". I wrote a 60 page paper on this and it is probably floating around but it is hard to get people who spent their lives memorizing things to get them to view anything objectively or even view it at all except by a kind of a vote. They think that is how science is done. Anyway, let's go to why it is so. There are a zillion words derived from these. The main meaning of that (and that of a related word t>s, sig) is that it is a long pointed thing (Lahovary). Both Turkish til (tongue), and tish (teeth) are long pointed things. So is an arrow. But why "life" ? (Yes, in Turkic tiri (alive), and tin (life) come from this word.) And so does Iranian jan in all likelihood. The main reason is that in those old days, without metal tools, to make arrows (or spears) one would have had to start with something as nearly straight as possible. The closest thing would be a sapling (vertical standing thing) especially those trees that don't branch out but go straight up. The meaning tik (vertical) exists in Turkic also. And there are probably a hundred others. No matter. So there it is. th > {t,l,s/sh,w} and dh > {d,r,z,y} >From *thith we immediate can obtain til, tish, teeth (yep English), teng(a)e, *tungwo etc. Some will also recall my claim earlier (about a year ago) that there is a dh>ng in Turkic but that the evidence was slim. I posited that on the basis of the simplification it introduced into derivations in the same way James Clerk Maxwell added a term to the known equations governing electricity and magnetism purely for symmetric and aesthetic reasons and derived the Laws of Electromagnetism circa 1865, a feat that the Nobel Laureate Feynman called an event of much greater significance than the American Civil War. With the additional dh> ng these pose no problem at all. To boot we also get dent- . The lingua is no problem because of th>l. I showed earlier that th=Hittite H. We know that Russian uses f for th (e.g. Skif for Scyth) thus, we now also have explanation for fangwa and hizu. That only leaves Skt. jihva and Toch B kantwo. With a little manipulation that can also be done. The second consonant is almost all ng, and since th>dh>ng no problem at all. That leaves the hv of Skt and z of Av. But th>dh>z takes care of Av, and that only leaves Skt. And finally, the quote from the bottom of the page of Hock. "Finally, what remains unexplained is why this word should have undergone so many unusual, metathetical or contaminatory changes." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, I can also easily explain some of the other comments on the page, e.g. dacrima OLat vs lacrima. This is about as unusual as the names Tabarna and Labarna one finds in the Ancient Mideast. That is also quite easily explicable now. But in the book I also explain what these words mean and where they come from. Time to do some real work now. Stefan, why are you so quiet? Are you racing to beat me to publication? -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 8 13:43:56 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 09:43:56 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: A nice game] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> To Linguist list Your server is infected. PS. Maybe some subscribers on Language know the folks at the LinguistList.org. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: A nice game Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 21:31:20 +0800 (CST) From: linguist To: hubey at pegasus.montclair.edu This is a very nice game This game is my first work. You're the first player. I hope you would like it. ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sat May 11 21:01:45 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:01:45 -0400 Subject: [language] God Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Follow up to my previous posts on God, fire/sun/heat e.g. Atun (Akhen-Atun) Ahura (Mazda), Atar *athar, *adhar, ut(u) fire, sun, light Look at these developments th>dh>d Adonai = Adonis =~ Atun, etc th > l gives Allah, Elohim, El i.e Atun > Adon or *Athun > atun > adon- etc The smoking gun can be found in Berger's book on Semitic: Gadhamsi Berber o:fa (fire).. [The question is if oth > o:fa or, o:fa > *oth etc. Since o seems to be a late development we have to go with one of /iua/. The earliest branches seem to have split into /a/, and /u/. Then maybe /i/ or we just don't see it because the others got into writing. But then again, there are gods like Ishten, Ishtar, etc.] Thus the existence of some root *ath, or *uth, and the earliest can be, traced to Sumerian ut(u), and much later Turkic ot. There is also a k=m equivalence between Turkic and Sumerian (Tuna's book) This is likely due to the sound change paths p>t>k in one branch and p>b>m in another. Thus from Moloch=Melech = Malik in the other branch we expect *Koloch=*Kelech=*Kalik The roots of these can be found in: gal (high, Sumerian, as in lu-gal=high/great man=king, lord), and KalI: (high, Clauson), kalk (to rise, get up), kalka (to soar) in Turkic, and with some manipulation khakan, kaghan, shogun, etc.] "Mal" has to do with strength and "male" something in Hittite. I don't have the book here. To continue: th>sh produces Shaddai, thus shad < *shadh < *thadh possibility exists. Thus words such as *Tudh(a) (Tura, Turan). [Tura is the Chuvash God] But with dh>ng the other form(s) must have been; Tang, Tangri, Tenger, dingir (Sumer) [Then there is Torah, and Turkic to"r, both likely related to some concept of supernatural force/entity.] But then there is also *shad- > shar, tsar, cherig/cheriw And again, with t>k *Tudha > Kuda > Xuda. (Alleged Iranian gods) which somehow got into Turkic going in the wrong direction to sound flow. PS. There are hundreds of these. The only trick to finding these patterns is i) in NOT EXPECTING to find cognates that differ in a single sound but multiple ones. ii) secondly, to realize that the heuristic method of linguistics distorts reality by throwing out data. What we see is that words spread out accross traditional family boundaries. iii) he third is to always remember that regular sound change DOES NOT equal only descent from an ancestor but also takes place in borrowing. The real problem is in trying to distinguish between borrowing, massive borrowing, and effect of new language learners on the language vs slow-evolutionary changes in sounds in "real" descent from an ancestor. ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 12 01:37:27 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:37:27 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: Re: JQL-182 (fwd)] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: JQL-182 (fwd) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:06:21 -0500 From: "H. M. Hubey" To: Reinhard Koehler References: Reinhard Koehler wrote: > > Dear colleague, > the paper you submitted by email is under review. However, the form, i.e. > the pdf file, is hardly readable. I do not know why, but the letters are > printed overlapping so that one often has to guess the words. As it is a > pdf file, we cannot change the font or anything. > For the publisher - rather the printers - we would need anyway a machine > operable file format. Could you please provide a version in plain ascii or > a wordprocessor format (MS Word, preferably) with the diagrams and tables > separately? > Thank you very much for your cooperation! I mailed paper copies of both manuscripts and a CD that has .pdf, .ps, .doc and .txt versions of both manuscripts to Mr. Hans Holm earlier in the week. Everything you seek should be on the CD. If you need anything more please do not hesitate to email me. There is a postscript interpreter (for free) named Ghostscript for Windows platform. In addition the Acrobat Reader from Adobe (version 4.0) is also free and available from the Adobe.com website. As you probably know .pdf is now the standard used by NSF documents available on the WWW so like .ps (also from Adobe) it is a de facto standard (like LaTex). Of course, .doc format is the de facto standard for word processing. So I have included all three. A postscript compatible laser printer will make beautiful copies of text, equations and graphics from either Ghostscript or Acrobat Reader. Sincerely, -- M. Hubey, Computer Science /\/\/\/\...I love humanity. It's people I can't stand.../\/\/\/\/\/\/\ hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 12 01:38:21 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:38:21 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: Manuscripts] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Manuscripts Date: Fri, 31 Mar 00 10:32:00 GMT From: Hans_Holm at h2.maus.de (Hans Holm) Organization: MausNet (Mitglied im IN e.V.) To: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Dear Prof. Hubey, Of course I received 2 different manuscripts. 1. "Mathematical Methods in Historical Linguistics: their use, misuse and abuse" Question: Is this changed in respect to my version of may 23, 1999? 2. "The Comparative Method" - Dated 3/10/00; Question: What am I supposed to do with that? It seems really better than the first one. Regards Hans J. Holm D-30629 Hannover ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 12 01:40:13 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:40:13 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: mail] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Dear Dr. Koehler, I have heard nothing about my manuscripts and you do not answer my emails, yet the issues of IQLA journal keep coming out. What can possibly excuse holding manuscripts submitted to the journal for 3 years? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: mail Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:23:00 +0200 From: Hans_Holm at h2.maus.de (Hans Holm) Organization: MAUS Hannover 2 To: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Sir, HMH>Is there any news about the manuscripts? .. What do you mean by news? I sent the report on the manuscripts to Prof. Koehler, as required. He is the editor. Regards Hans J. Holm D-30629 Hannover ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 12 01:42:03 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:42:03 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: Re: JQL-182 (fwd)] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: JQL-182 (fwd) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:06:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Reinhard Koehler To: "H. M. Hubey" Dear colleague, I did not know that you were in contact with Hans Holm. Now I see that my message was superlfluous. > I mailed paper copies of both manuscripts and a CD that has > .pdf, .ps, .doc and .txt versions of both manuscripts to > Mr. Hans Holm earlier in the week. Everything you seek should > be on the CD. If you need anything more please do not hesitate > to email me. There is a postscript interpreter (for free) named > Ghostscript for Windows platform. In addition the Acrobat Reader > from Adobe (version 4.0) is also free and available from the > Adobe.com website. TZhank you. However, I do have Ghostscript and Acrobat Reader (as well as Acrobat Destiller, Acrobat Exchange and others). The problem was in fact that your paper was stored in the pdf file in an amlost anreadable way, and Ghostscript, Reader and everything could just reproduce this bad picture. As you probably know .pdf is now the standard > used by NSF documents available on the WWW so like .ps (also from > Adobe) it is a de facto standard (like LaTex). Of course, .doc > format is the de facto standard for word processing. So I have > included all three. A postscript compatible laser printer will > make beautiful copies of text, equations and graphics from either > Ghostscript or Acrobat Reader. Unfortunately not, as stated above. Hope that the new version will work. Best regards yours Reinhard Köhler ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 12 01:42:23 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:42:23 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: mail] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: mail Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:23:00 +0200 From: Hans_Holm at h2.maus.de (Hans Holm) Organization: MAUS Hannover 2 To: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Sir, HMH>Is there any news about the manuscripts? .. What do you mean by news? I sent the report on the manuscripts to Prof. Koehler, as required. He is the editor. Regards Hans J. Holm D-30629 Hannover ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Mon May 13 00:25:07 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 20:25:07 -0400 Subject: [language] Re: A Little Action Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> I wonder if list subscribers would not mind switching to the thing called "lexical diffusion", a term apparently coined by Wm. Wang and maybe co-author. This has theoretical serious repercussions for historical linguistics. > -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Mon May 13 00:51:04 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 20:51:04 -0400 Subject: [language] heoretical question Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Suppose I find that language X has some word ^%$#*^ which has N meanings. Then I find that language Y has N different (but similar) words which match these N meanings of language X. What does this mean? 1) The N words of langauge Y have collapsed into a single form in language X. 2) The word had only a single meaning, but got N meanings but retained its sound shape/form in language X but for some reason split into N different forms in language Y. Any others? -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Mon May 13 00:56:01 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 20:56:01 -0400 Subject: [language] (no subject) Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> I am curious about this entry. This word "yeli" must also exist in Iranian. What does it mean? #516. leli (mng unknown) Hurr. term in MH and NH festivals of Hurr. background, all NS [GHL-N:60]; eliya 1) lightning 2) pagan. ehlia (god of a lightning) Turkmen songs and Circassian Nart Stories have the refrain ‘Yeli, Yeli’. It seems to have spread around but apparently nobody knows what it is. In Saga 42 of the book on Circassian Nart stories Colarusso [2002] records Bzhedukh [West Circassian] hymn of the old men and women to the God of lightning in the form of a round dance. Yeli, Yeli, do not burn our village, Yeli, Yeli, do not strike the forest of God's grove, ... Yeli, Yeli, taking hold of one another we dance in a circle. Yeli, Yeli, we dance around the tree of God's grove. ... Yeli, Yeli, those who refuse to enter meet great lightning. ... According to Colarusso[2002], the name of the storm god, is also that for 'poisonous snake,' suggesting old cultic iconography. Among the Iroquoian speaking Huron or Wendat of Northeast North America the sign for lightning was also a snake.[Colarusso]. It is amazing that Turkish for snake is also cılan/yılan, (ilan in Azeri), and Illuyanka in Hittite. It is thought that the refrain 'Yeli, yeli' is from the name 'Elia' or 'Ilia', the prophet Elijah, widely worshipped as a sort of lightning/storm god in the Caucasus and the steppes to the north [Colarusso]. One Circassian name for Mount Elbruz is Yeli-place, that is, 'God's place ,' or 'Elijah's place,' which is also known in Circassian as mountain-blessed, 'The Blessed or Sacred Mountain' [Colarusso2002]. It is known as Mingngi Taw in Karachay-Balkar. The Minni (Manneans) are mentioned in ancient history of the Mideast and they show up in the Caucasus. See the beginning. In Karachay-Balkar july is eliya-ay. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Tue May 14 14:31:07 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:31:07 -0400 Subject: [language] Protoforms of IE words Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Can some IEanists please tell me the protoforms of these English words: kiln < *kilin < .......???? oven < * offen or *offnen? < ..... Thank you. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 15 02:38:21 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 22:38:21 -0400 Subject: [language] (no subject) Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Some words. Where they are not marked they are from Karachay-Balkar. The others from Turkut (clauson), Chuvash, Turkish, etc are marked. qatala furious qat 1) liter., figurative to harden, to get stronger; to become firm (strong); 2) to dry up; 3) tempered; qatxan qurç hardened steel 4) stick (into) eyes, to stare, to be fixated; 5) to stiffen; grow torpid; 6) to die (more often, child); qatı I 1) liter., figurative firm, strong, rigid; 2) abrupt; 3) hard, tight; 4) heavy, fast; 5) figurative severe, ruthless, rough 6) figurative strict; ~ ustaz strict teacher; qatışdırewük (-gü) karach. 1) mixed, hashed, confusing 2) chaotic, slovenly, disorderly, disorganised, slap-dash; ol ~ kibikdi he/she a little slovenly qatışdır 1) to prevent, to mix; 2) to confuse; başımı qatışdırma do not confuse me; 3) to entangle, to involve; bu işge meni kim qatışdırdı? who entangled me in this business? qatış 1) to be prevented, to mix up, to mix up with; 2) to be confused; qatışıb turama I am confused; 3) figurative to interfere, to get mixed up; to participate in; sözge ~– to interfere with conversation; qatışmaz?a to not interfere; 4) to be disarranged (about hair) qatışıw action name to qatışır?a participation, intervention qatışlı having an impurity, with an impurity, dirty qatışma mix; mess qatış-qura 1) chaos, disorder, mess chaotic 2) medley; ~ eterge to mix. to make medley kat- to mix (two things), to add (something acc.) see 1 kar-.[Clauson72:594] katıgh hard, firm, tough[Clauson72:597] katkı harsh, hard, hearted [Clauson72:598] katık (katuk) something mixed into something else the edge [Clauson72:598] katın e.g. ya:gh katındı the man pretended to mix the parched grain [Clauson72:603] kadhır grim, brutal, oppressive, dangerous[Clauson72:603] kadhır kış[Clauson72:603] [Notice that Turkut still had the phoneme dh [Clauson] circa 700 CE] kurut Dev. N. fr. kurı: dried curds used as a kind of hard cheese[Clauson72:648] kurı:- to be, or become dry[Clauson72:646] karım - a moat, town ditch, and the like; lit. (a moat filled by) a single overflow of water[Clauson72:659] kuyaş ‘the blazing heat of the sun, ‘the sun’[Clauson72:679] qawal gun (without rifling in a trunk), shot-gun qawdan dry herb (on a root), winter pasture; ~ mal cattle on pasture, to a forage (winter) qawgha 1) quarrel, scandal, abuse; turmoil; revolt; 2) alarm, excitement qawşa to perish; uruşda ~ to lose a fight; artı?a ~ to overturn qawursun dried, dry, ~ biçen the overdried hay Turkish kavur (to roast) qaynar hot; ~ suwda cuw wash up in hot water qayna 1) to boil; 2) to be cooked; 3) to be in a state of fermentation(unrest); 4) to grow together; sı??an süyek qayna?andı the broken bone has grown together, the bone has fused 5) liter., figurative to storm, to rage; 6) to be angry, to be indignant; qazan kettle (copper), cooking pot; kazan; et ~ (or aş) meat boiler;~ qara soot; Chuvash xuran kettle [Krueger61:240]; Turkish kazan, cooking pot. qız 1) to be heated, to speed up; have/run a temperature; rot , decay; figurative to burn, to inflame; get/fly into a passion, blaze up, fly into a rage; temir qız?andı iron is hot; tepseb qızghan ot the inflamed fire; qulaqlarım qızadıla my ears burn; qızar 1) liter., figurative to redden; közleri qızar?andıla his eyes have reddened; suwuqdan beti? qızar?andı your face reddened from the cold; beti qızardı he blushed; qıp-qızıl ~ to be heated to red; qızar?an közle inflamed eyes; qızarmış bolur?a to redden; qızarıb qalır?a to flush red; 3) to be angry; qızara-a?ara between worrying and excitement (reddening and whitening) qızıl 1) red; açı ~ , ~ ala bright red; scarlet; qız?an i. 1) partic. from qız; 2) hot; heated up, heated; [Serious attention should be paid to the last word and such words in Turkic. Notice how the word is derived from the root. I cannot show the consonant that shows up as ?. It is really gh in karachay-Balkar and soft-g in Turkish. In Turkish the word would be qızan. If there ever was a mystery as to the meaning of the -Vn, -Vl, and -Vr suffixes, the answer might lie here as unbelievable as it sounds, but I am still not sure whether I should believe it. I am still doing more research on this.] qızın refl. 1) to take a great interest, to be interested; 2) to be tempted; qızı??an tempted, charmed. qızınıw gerund from qızın enthusiasm, eagerness, stimulus, interest; [Recall the -U suffix of Akkadian e.g. ISHITU (heat)] [Recall Turkic k= m Sumerian e.g. p>t>k in Turkic but p>b>m in Sumerian.] Sumerian mir ’anger’ (MSL,IV,35) Turkic kız ’to be angry, cross’. Chuvash kerle to murmur, rustle, roar [Krueger61:222]. Chuvash xer to glow, become glowing [Krueger61:239]; Chuvash xerle red [Krueger61:239]; Chuvash xevel sun [Krueger61:240]; Chuvash xut to heat [Krueger61:240] There are dozens of related words. Now we move onto another vowel. qur?aq (-?ı) 1) dry; ~ biçen dry hay; ~ otun dry fire wood; 2) figurative dry, constrained, with restraint; 3) figurative empty, useless; ~ söz jabber, empty conversation, fine words; 4) rare dry, thin, lean; wiry, sinewy; ~ adam thin man 5) rare a drought, dry; qur?aqsı 1) to dry up; awuzum qur?aqsı?andı my throat is dry/parched; quw II tinder, match; ~ qabındı the tinder has lit up; ka:v tinder kav, kaw, ko:, ku:, kagh, kogh. l.-w. in Persian. ka:v tinder [Clauson72:579]; [There are Turcologists and others who read dictionaries who today claim that these words are from Iranian.] quw III 1) dry; ~ otunla dry fire wood; ~ eterge to dry; 2) liter., figurative dried up, dried, faded; ~ terek a dried tree; ~ bolur?a a) to dry up (for ex. about a tree); 3) gaunt, scrawny; lean; poor, emaciated, skinny; ~ bolghun! a damnation may you be gone! [This preterite form e.g. ( -ghun!) is identical to Hittite. See the book by Held.] quwur 1) to fry; et ~ to fry meat quwurma cook. fried food kükürt karach. sulfur (chemical element) sulfuric kül ashes; ashen; [It is possible that at one time, the –vl suffix behaved like the –vn suffix so that the changes might have been *küyül > kül, similar to *küyün > kün (sun). There is also a low-vowel version i.e. kuyaş] küllüm right in the sun, in the full blaze of the sun kün 1) sun; 2) [light] day, daytime; 3) day; kündüz I. day, day time; 2. day; küw karach. lit., mus. song - weeping; ~ le songs - weeping; küy balk. same as küw küydürgen 1) partic. from küydürürge; 2) sharp; burning; küg ‘song, melody’[Clauson72:709] küs- ‘to be angry, offended; to sulk’[Clauson72:748] küydürüwçü incendiary; fiery, incendiary, inflammatory; ~ bomba incendiary bomb küy 1) liter., figurative to burn; 2) to scald, to be burnt (for ex.. by tea) 3) to vanish in vain, to turn to ashes; qıyınım küydü my work was in vain; açham boşuna küyüb ketdi I lost all my money 4) to experience, grieve (for); grieve: içinden ~ a) to experience [internally]; b) bitterly to regret küygen 1) partic. from küy; 2) burnt; charred; burnt; kül ‘ashes, cinders’ [Clauson72:715] köz ‘burning embers’ ; kor in Trk see also koze i.e. [Clauson72:756] köze:- ‘to poke a fire, stir up the burning embers’[Clauson72:757] közeş - poke (fi tahrit) the fire’; [Clauson72:762] Now for what seems like a change of pace (but not really). kaz- and kaşı:’to carve, engrave’[Clauson72:681] kazgha:n ’a very old one, xuran ‘cauldron’ [Clauson72:682] küri- ‘to dig up (the ground); to shovel(snow)’, and the like.[Clauson72:737] kürtük ‘ snowdrift, deep snow’[Clauson72:739] qaz 1) to dig; to hollow 2) to extract; altın ~ to extract gold; 3) to rummage; The ‘unsolved’ problem of the meaning of ‘kazak’ and ‘kazar’, qazan (kazan) might also be found in the sound shifts of Turkic languages. It means ‘to dig’. Only in Turkish does gez mean ‘to wander’ (also kez, Clauson72:757). Herodotus [HerO97:327] states that the Scythians cooked meat by putting the meat in the stomach of the animal with some water, and then using that as the ‘cooking pot’ and using the bones and fat of the animal for fuel. Miziev [MizI96:48] gives references to this way of cooking observed relatively recently, except that he describes the process in more detail. A pit is dug, and a fire started in it using grass, and the bones of the animal. Then the stomach of the animal with the meat inside mixed with some water is put in the pit. This relates the word for digging with cooking, specifically with the word for a make-shift cooking pot. We already know that Sumerian har (meaning ‘to dig’) [TunO90:17] is cognate with Turkic kaz with the same meaning. The answer is very suggestive, some peoples who did not have cooking pots (not even ceramic ones) and who probably were on the move a lot (i.e. nomads) used this method of cooking. It is hardly worth pointing out that the common Turkic word for cooking pot which is qazan/kazan can hardly be obtained from kaz meaning ‘goose’ (which might even be a loan from IE if not protoworld) or from qaz/kaz meaning ‘to dig’ any other way. Once again this can be found to go back to Sumerian era [TunO90:13]. Kurgan is from Turkic and means ‘grave’ or ‘tumulus’ for a grave. Furthermore, the word for ‘stomach’ is qarın which seems to belong to a set of early words such as qoyun, qıyın, boyun, qalın, qatın, kırkın etc. Another alternative for Turkish gez meaning ‘to wander’ is from köç but this word also has the same kö root having to do with things like digging, burying (köm,göm), sinking (kömek, TunO90:12]), and underground things (kömür) which are again apparently related to the same idea. This idea explains why there are people called kashog, or kashogian north of the Caucasus when the Turkic peoples are all supposed to be east of the Altays according to standard history. Incidentally, the kar root must go back to quite ancient times since reflexes can be found in Proto-Korean as *kar-. Many such words can be found in present day languages: kar > karık (furrow in archaic Turkish); kazu (to dig, Tatar); xır (dig, Chuvash); qaru (to dig ,Classical Mongol); xaru (to dig, Khalkha); qır (to scrape in Karachay-Balkar, and Kazakh). We also have the names of instruments from the same roots: küre > kürek(shovel) ; kaşı> kaşık (spoon); kaz > kazık (peg) or kazı > kazık. There are related words; kurgan (burial grave/mound); kör (grave, Turkish, Karachay-Balkar, etc); kara (land, said to be Arabic); qora (to disappear, to die, Karachay-Balkar); Turkish doublet karma-karışık (from kar to mix, stir (overturn earth?). Therefore the word qazan (cooking pot) really is from qaz (to dig). Therefore the words kazak (>cossack), hussar (<><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 15 13:14:28 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:14:28 -0400 Subject: [language] The root of "sun" Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> What is the root of English "sun". It has the -Vn root, and seems remarkably related to other roots for "burning", "fire" etc. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 15 14:20:46 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:20:46 -0400 Subject: [language] Re: The root of "sun" Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> "H.M. Hubey" wrote: > <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> > > What is the root of English "sun". > > It has the -Vn root, and seems remarkably related to other roots for > "burning", "fire" etc. I can't resolve this problem. Many IE words have sun, sonne, zon, sunna, sol, sole etc. Even in Germanic there is sol. So once again we see almost free interchange of l=r=n. Then there is Turkic kan IE sang. Turkic ku"n, IE sun. There is much more. But there is evidence that it was earlier with t, e.g. tu"t (to smoke), tuman (smoke), tuban (mist), tIbIr (hearth), Sumerian tab, tamIdh (Clauson) but Turkic kab(in) etc. Nilo-Saharan also has something like *tu (for fire, smoke etc). So once again, is there a t>s and t>k or was it really k>s. Still looking for the smoking gun. BTW, others Celtic has gr roots (e.g. kIr/kIz etc e.g. red) like Slavic kr- for red. Sanskrit has aruna, and arusa (other words for sun) e.g. from *athun, *athur, etc. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Mon May 20 15:32:26 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:32:26 -0400 Subject: [language] Sensationalism in Science and Philosophy Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> The discussion is closed but there is no reason why others can't read what I wrote. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Sensationalism in Science and Philosophy Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 00:57:48 -0400 From: "H.M. Hubey" To: The LINGUIST Network ,ploch at languages.wits.ac.za, dan_everett at sil.org I would like to thank Dr. Ploch for his long post clearing the air and clarifying the confused state of matters. I would also like to add a few comments which are germane. First of all, these discussions are extremely important for linguistics. Around the 1930s people like Paul Samuelson were known as "mathematical economists". Today "economist" means "mathematical economist". And the term "literary economist" is reserved for those who would like to litter the landscape with tossed word salads. To me a person is a "literary economist" like Jules Verne is a "literary physicist". Obviously, Verne was a science fiction writer. One day there will also be "literary linguists". The times are changing, and they always did. Around 1950 "computer" was a human, like an engineer, or accountant. Hence the words for machines had the adjective "automatic" in front of it e.g. EDVAC, UNIVAC etc, because at that time sophisticated-machines were called "automatic". One day, the adjective "mathematical" will not be necessary when using the word "linguist". Over the last 300 years or so strange things have happened and strange ideas have become sold as 'truth'. I was shocked to find one of my students put on her web page that she 'practices wiccan'. All this is due to lack of knowledge about what science is. And it is not really very recent, but has been going on for centuries. The great [anti] hero of movies and films moved into the science field and usurped it. The earliest such event was the ridicule heaped upon Isaac Newton and his "mathematics" by the philosopher Berkeley (and his cronies who called Newton to their "court" and [allegedly] demolished his whole edifice) who today is not known for much more than what can best be explained as "what I don't see does not exist." The story of science has been told incorrectly by those who had a lot to lose from its successes. Let us not forget that Newton did "natural philosophy" (not "physics"). The best explanation of why science developed the way it did and why it had to essentially this deterministic path is in August Comte's book. (Unfortunately, I could only read the English translation by Andreski, not the original French.) But he too was put away by those who had much to lose, and who did not understand what was written. Then during this century we had Feyerabend who "proves" that witchcraft is science. When he gave this talk at Stanford a student asked him why he does not fly brooms instead of airplanes, and his answer was "I understand planes but not brooms."! How can this con-artist even show is face anywhere? Then finally, the dam burst when that ignoramus Searle decided to do one better and wrote his little work on why there will never be intelligent machines. There was a companion article in the Scientific American by the philosopher couple Mr/Ms Churchland. It is only too painfully clear that Searle does not even understand what was written, and has no ability to even think of complex issues in that article of his in Scientific American. But this is all what post-everything movement is about. There was a great deal of ridicule of Searle, which like a true con-man he merely termed "hostility". But it looks like the tide has turned. The big attack was launched by two physicists, Sokol and Bricmont, and it was the hoax article which they got published in a prestigious journal. In fact, one can find the website where there is a "postmodernism generator". It creates a new postmodernist article automatically everytime you click on the button. That is how much gibberish there is in that movement which, to me, includes people like Feyerabend, Searle, and Kuhn. Nothing succeeds like success, and it looks like things are going back to sanity. All of this is not much more than earlier replays of what Bill Gates did to the world (mostly America). A much more reliable operating system Linux is available for free. Just think a minute. If there were free cars outperforming Lexus, Benz, Infiniti and BMW, how long would these manufacturers stay in business? The WebServer Apache was so good that there is even a version of it that runs on Gates' Windows operating systems and yet he still sells his IIS. Why? Most people say that they use Windows only because they have to use MS-Office and that because their old files are in these packages. But there is Star-Office, which is probably still free and it produces basically MS-Office compatable files. So why does Bill Gates still hold the world by its testicles? That is the same reason why Feyerabend, Kuhn, Searle are still enjoying a kind of [anti] hero fame. Who are they fighting and why are they so popular? Obviously, I recommend reading Popper, Comte, and others who wrote on science like Mach, Frank, Paulos, Schroedinger, etc. Their works are less "heroic" than those of Feyerabend, Searle and Kuhn but they are much closer to the mark on how science is and was really done. And that is why linguists should broaden their readings to others than those who are greatly popular in the "mainstream". Look at Gates' Windows and Office? Free products are better than those. That speaks volumes about the mass marketing of products and ideas. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Tue May 28 01:03:50 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 21:03:50 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: [evol-psych] Report: chimps used simple tools 5 million years ago] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Report: chimps used simple tools 5 million years ago May 23, 2002 Posted: 2:13 PM EDT (1813 GMT) By Peter Dykstra CNN Sci-Tech WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An archaeological dig in West Africa has revealed evidence that chimpanzees used primitive tools as long as five million years ago, according to an international team of scientists. The evidence is in the form of 479 fragments of rudimentary stone hammers that the chimps used to crack open nuts at the close of what is known as the Miocene era, when Ice Age conditions cooled the planet, according to their report in this week's journal Science. The fragments -- found at a site in Tai National Park in the Ivory Coast -- closely resemble similar tools used by hominid (pre-human) species about the same time, offering opportunities to learn more about the history of human tools as well as providing a rare look into how other primate species developed, the researchers said. "This introduces the possibility of tracing the development of at least one aspect of ape culture through time," said Julio Mercader, an archaeologist at the George Washington University In Washington, D.C. Mercader and GWU colleagues conducted the investigation with researchers from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany. Full text http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/05/23/chimps.tools/index.html __________ ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Thu May 30 01:11:20 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 21:11:20 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: [evol-psych] Near Eastern languages came from Africa 10,000 years ago] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [evol-psych] Near Eastern languages came from Africa 10,000 years ago Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 17:22:04 +0100 From: Ian Pitchford Reply-To: Ian Pitchford Organization: http://human-nature.com/ To: evolutionary-psychology at yahoogroups.com ESHG 2002 - Day 4 - Tuesday 28 May 2002 Report: Near Eastern languages came from Africa 10,000 years ago Investigator: Ene Metspalu Tuesday May 28th, 2002 by Laura Spinney Analysis of thousands of mitochondrial DNA samples has led Estonian archeogeneticists to the origins of Arabic. Ene Metspalu of the Department of Evolutionary Biology at Tartu University and the Estonian Biocentre in Tartu, claims to have evidence that the Arab-Berber languages of the Near and Middle East came out of East Africa around 10,000 years ago. She has found evidence for what may have been the last sizeable migration out of Africa before the slave trade. Genetic markers transmitted through either the maternal or paternal line have been used to trace the great human migrations since Homo sapiens emerged in Africa. But attempts to trace the evolution of languages have met with less success, partly because of the impact on languages of untraceable political and economic upheavals. Full text http://news.bmn.com/conferences/list/view?rp=2002-ESHG-4-S3 __________ The Tending Instinct: How Nurturing Is Essential to Who We Are and How We Live by Shelley E. Taylor Hardcover: 320 pages; Dimensions (in inches): 1.15 x 9.80 x 6.14 Publisher: Times Books; ISBN: 0805068376; (May 8, 2002) AMAZON - US http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805068376/darwinanddarwini/ AMAZON - UK http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805068376/humannaturecom/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Thu May 30 01:17:46 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 21:17:46 -0400 Subject: [language] (no subject) Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Near Eastern languages came from Africa 10,000 years ago Investigator: Ene Metspalu Tuesday May 28th, 2002 by Laura Spinney Analysis of thousands of mitochondrial DNA samples has led Estonian archeogeneticists to the origins of Arabic. Ene Metspalu of the Department of Evolutionary Biology at Tartu University and the Estonian Biocentre in Tartu, claims to have evidence that the Arab-Berber languages of the Near and Middle East came out of East Africa around 10,000 years ago. She has found evidence for what may have been the last sizeable migration out of Africa before the slave trade. Genetic markers transmitted through either the maternal or paternal line have been used to trace the great human migrations since Homo sapiens emerged in Africa. But attempts to trace the evolution of languages have met with less success, partly because of the impact on languages of untraceable political and economic upheavals. Metspalu and colleagues analyzed inherited variations in a huge number of samples - almost 3000 - of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) taken from natives of the Near East, Middle East and Central Asia, as well as North and East Africa. mtDNA is inherited through the maternal line, and by comparing their data with existing data on European, Indian, Siberian and other Central Asian populations, the researchers were able to create a comprehensive phylogenetic map of maternal lineages diverging from Africa and spreading towards Europe and Asia. Working in collaboration with language specialists, they found that this movement 10,000 years ago, which was probably centred on Ethiopia, could well have been responsible for seeding the Afro-Asiatic language from which all modern Arab-Berber languages are descended. "This language was spoken in Africa 10,000 or 12,000 years ago," Metspalu told BioMedNet News. "We think it was around that time that carriers brought these Afro-Asiatic languages to the Near East." The language, or its derivatives, later spread much further afield. What could have triggered the movement she can only speculate. One possibility is that increasing desertification was causing famine in Africa and driving hunters further afield in search of animals. Interestingly, the lineages they traced through this 10,000-year-old migration didn't seem to get much further north than modern-day Syria or east of modern-day Iraq. There is no evidence of the lineages in the mtDNA of people from Turkey or Iran, says Metspalu. "We can't understand why this boundary [to the Arab-Berber speaking world] is so sharp," she said. "They came out of Africa, and when they reached Turkey they just stopped." She believes some kind of physical boundary, now vanished, must have impeded them. The same genetic detective work has confirmed archeological evidence that the biggest movement out of Africa occurred around 50,000 years ago - which is when Africans first settled in other continents - and that it originated in a small East African population. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Fri May 31 12:57:48 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:57:48 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: [evol-psych] One world, one tongue] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Sp!ked 30 May 2002 One world, one tongue Vive la différence Patrick West The publication of the book Language in Danger: How Language Loss Threatens Our Future, by Andrew Dalby, coincides with recent gloomy predictions from Manchester University that 90 percent of the world's 5000 languages are likely to disappear by 2050. 'The linguistic equivalent of an ecological disaster is looming', concluded the UK Guardian - following claims that in 50 years' time we will all be speaking English, Hindi, Arabic, Mandarin or Spanish (1). The wording here is revealing. 'Diversity' is considered to be marvellous, for ecologists, multiculturalists and linguists. But isn't the Guardian getting carried away with its metaphors? Diversity is certainly crucial ecologically. In a complex ecosystem, remove one part of the jigsaw and things may fall apart. If the frog has no flies to eat, there will be no frogs left. With no frogs, where will the crocodiles get their dinner? And so on. But diversity in the human world is not always a good thing. Like its evil sister uniformity, diversity poses problems as well as benefits. Full text http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/00000006D912.htm __________ The Dawn of Human Culture by Richard G. Klein, Blake Edgar Hardcover: 288 pages; Publisher: John Wiley & Sons; ISBN: 0471252522 AMAZON - US http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471252522/darwinanddarwini/ AMAZON - UK http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471252522/humannaturecom/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 5 15:07:02 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 11:07:02 -0400 Subject: [language] What sound change can explain this? Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Common Turkic kan (blood); Chuvash yun (blood) [Krueger61:241] ; Common Turkic kar, (snow); Chuvash yur (snow) [Krueger61:242]. PS. *PIE *sang (blood). Persian xun (blood). -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Mon May 6 00:33:38 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sun, 5 May 2002 20:33:38 -0400 Subject: [language] Re: What sound change can explain this? Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Yusuf B Gursey wrote: > > > > Common Turkic kan (blood); > > Chuvash yun (blood) [Krueger61:241] ; > > > > regular developments from *q(i)a:n > > labialization of *a: weakening of q(i) to x(i) and palatization, > in chuvash. If the original had a *qi- perhaps this word was also related to "red". In any case, labialization can make a>u, and weakening makes q > x. How does x > y? > > s > h , s > x , z > x is known in iranian. That also shows up obviously in Common Turkic and Bolgaric, and I don't believe Common Turkic s changed to Bolgaric h. It looks like k > h , and k > s or t>k>h and t>s. Ditto for s > x. Obviously z> x is really s>z and something >....> h. I have asked for years for an attestation in a single language of k>s. Is there one? Or do they show up in sister languages? -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Tue May 7 13:38:37 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 09:38:37 -0400 Subject: [language] A Little Action Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> 1. sar (to write) Sumerian 2. s'Ir (to write) Chuvash (Bolgaric Turkic, also called l~r Turkic) 3. sIz (to draw) Karachay-Balkar (Kipchak Turkic) 4. saz (clay) Kar-Balk 5. sadIr (bog, clay) Kar-Balk 6. yaz (to write) Turkish 7. caz (to write) Kar-Balk Secondary meaning of yaz/caz is "to roll, to flatten, to spread as in rolling dough or rolling clay). 8. sar (to wrap) Turkish. 9. ser (to spread) Turkish Now "rolling dough" is completely unconnected with "writing", or is it? "Rolling dough" is completely unconnected with "clay" or is it? "Drawing" is completely unconnected with "writing", or is it? "To wrap" is completely unconnected with "writing" or is it? "To spread" is completely unconnected with "writing" or is it? Among others one sees here dh>d, (sadIr), dh > r (sar) and dh>z (saz). There are other examples in Turkic and I feel confident that zetaization and rhotacization are solved. The rule is I. dh > {d,r,z,y} Many of these can be found in Turkic, since dh exists in Turkut (Clauson). In parallel with this, using symmetry arguments (and solving similar problems) there is II> th > {t,l,s/sh,w} + {dh} The + is to be read as set union. The s/sh is there because whatever this change was about, it has apparently never completed, at least in Turkic. These laws hold for other languages in the ancient Mideast including Akkadian, Sumerian, and Hittite. As for why phonetic forms have small distances whereas the semantic forms seem to have large distances (dissimilarities) there is an obvious connection. I think some on the Indo-Iranian list have already seen it. More to follow. PS. Is there a clearly-attested case of k>s, something which is very definitive and something which is definitely not a case of t>s and t>k which looks like k=s and which at least one person has interpreted as k>s. I have been asking this question for many years, and there is a very good reason for it. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Tue May 7 23:27:58 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 19:27:58 -0400 Subject: [language] k>s Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> I just read on Khazaria news the word "khagan" and the twin rulership system and recalled the doublet in karachay-balkar "kaghun soghun" which seems to me to be "kagan shogun". I can't tell how it got to Japan (if it did), but it looks like it did. And here is that k=s problem again. I also read in at least a few places that t>s is common. What I cannot tell is if k=s is really a case of t>k and t>s. I would like a clear-cut historically observed precise example of a k>s change in a single language, unperturbed by new language learners. Still looking. Can anyone point in some direction? PS. Yusuf, here is why The Sardinian-Latin case is like the izafet construction in Ottoman. Officially Ottoman was Turkish but let's see and we can see why the Sardinian-Latin case is not sufficient. I want a smoking gun. Here are a few lines from Oztuna p. 180 vol 6 Shems-i asr idi asrda shemsin ZIlli memdud olur, zamani kasir Tac-u tahtiyle fahreder beyler Fahrederdi aninla tac-u serir. Here are the "Turkish" words line by line ..idi ... ...olur ... ... -eder beyler ...aninla... serir. Even the word fahreder is not Turkish; that is like English "make-perestroika" (imagine it is a single word); is that English? The point is that the Izafet construction (a morpological feature of Ottoman) is not Turkish at all and disappeared. It was not because the Turkmen peasants (Turks!) forgot it. It never existed in their language. It only existed in the court Ottoman language. So one cannot say that Ottoman Turkish "changed" to modern Turkish literally. Two related languages converged and parts of Ottoman just got dumped. I don't want too many unknowns. I want the smoking gun. I have no idea what Sardinian was like, and I have no ideas if what passes for Sardinian was not some local aberration used by Roman governors doing their duty in Sardinia. I have no idea what their (the peasants') language was like and how and why it changed. Besides Latin and Sardinian are not the same language. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 8 00:54:14 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 20:54:14 -0400 Subject: [language] Sorry for the absence Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Last time I posted to Indo-Iranian these lines (more or less): Sumerian sar ?schreiben? (MSL, III, 113), ?to write? (Grd. 403) ~ ?ar id. Turkic. yaz- ? ?a?mak, yan?lmak, ??zmek, yazmak? [to write with other meanings] (DLT, I, 192; II, 20, III, 59); Let us look at Karachay-Balkar (a Kipchak Turkic, more or less). sad?r bog saz I 1. clay ; 2. fig. yellow, pale; earthy (about a person); sazl? clay; ~ cer clay ground sazak Turkish (clay, bog, marsh) Chuvash s'?r to write[Krueger61:231]; s?z 1) to draw; 2) to write, scribble; 4) fig. to steal; 5) to throw tall tales, exaggarate caz I to write caz II 1) to roll 2) to forge, flatten; laminate (iron) caz III to calm, to console And Turkish Turkish yaz to write; Turkish ?iz to draw; Turkish ser, to lay flat, to spread Turkish sar, to wrap --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the explanation, as many of you have already guessed is: >From Chuvash Turkic we can clearly see the outline of the changes in the word. The word in Chuvash is s'?r*. With the well known Turkic equavalence of r and z, we obtain s'?z. The Karachay-Balkar for ?to draw? is the root s?z, which in Turkish is ?iz. The roots of the word for writing in Karachay-Balkar and Turkish are caz and yaz respectively. If all Turkic c/y come from *d, then this is problematic since the Sumerian should be *dar. However, the words in Sumerian date from different times, thus the changes that took place could have already taken place in the Mideast/Caucasus region before this change. Besides all this presumably the *d would go back to a *t and we should look for related words that begin with *t which we have (see the list above.) And of course, the ptk changes could also show *k. Phonetically, s' seems closer to c, than to y, therefore if the c/y changes took place in Turkic, then this is evidence for the c>y view. Comparison of Chuvash to Common Turkic shows many correspondances of s' and c. *Bolgaric (Chuvash) has a three was s(h)ibilance, s, s', and sh. (using ASCII representations which hopefully will be clear). Obviously this parallels Arabic s, sh, and s. (emphatic). Ooops, I almost forgot. The words bog (where clay may come from), clay (used in cuneiform), drawing (likely what "writing" was called by those who invented it), caz/yaz (to flatten viscoelastic materials such as clay, dough, and iron (after heating)), caz/yaz (to write), sar (to wrap), and ser (to spread, flatten out) obviously are all (except for 'to write') activities related to writing. And in all likelihood, those who borrowed the word would simply have the word "to write" but those who practiced it and indulged in it would have drawn the word out of the activities connected with writing. It is clear that Turkic preserves these words in pristine form. -------------------------------------------------------- And now let us add some more meat to the stew.' Please pardon my analogical and metaphorical extensions. Being a real scientist and using precise words as required whenever I do real science, when I see sloppy work parading around as science with all the pompous pretensions inherent in such play-work, I feel the urge to experience the freedom that one expects from being released of the constraints imposed by rules and methodology of "real science" and thus feel an urge to indulge in such freedoms. Let us now get on with real work. Sumerian sila?, sila11: to knead (dough or clay); to slay. #123. Hittite ?alk ?to knead? [GH-P:96]; [# refers to the numbering scheme in my upcoming book ?ProtoTurkic and Hittite?. Let us also note that the second consonant is d, z, r, and t (except for Hittite and Sumerian sila, salk).. How is this possible? Let us recall th-->{t,l,s/sh,w} and dh-->{d,r,z,y}. One can now easily see the sound changes; th>t in one branch (Akkadian, Hittite, etc), and th>dh>r>z in Turkic. Let us also recall that Turkic is circa modern era (5,000 years after Sumerian), Akkadian is close to Sumerian era thus one change, th>t. Hittite is also close thus th>t. Now in addition to the problem of k>s(?) we have one more th>t (?) or t>th (?). This is a deep theoretical problem for historical linguistics and I do not wish to reveal its importance right now, but I have been thinking about it about as long as k>s (?). Let us also recall that Chuvash is in the Ural mountains and it got tucked away and preserved the words in magnificent isolation. Karachay-Balkar homeland is near Mount Elbruz, which along with Mount Kazbek are two of the highest mountains in Europe. Karachay-Balkar also preserves old Bolgaric words and some of the older words from the second Kipchak layer, unlike Turkish which got swamped by Farsi affectation by its upper classes who went thru Iran (Seljuks). Turkish also went thru a soaking bath of Arabic. To belabor the obvious, why are these words related? Anyone who knows anything about the ancient Mideast immediately knows. Clay was dredged from marshes/bogs or was dug up from the earth, mixed with water, then kneaded, flattened/rolled (as with a rolling pin), then written on (drawn on, incized) and then dried. Thus it was either baked in an oven (cooked?), or sun-baked, heated etc. And that is the obvious reason why all of these words are the way they are. This is obviously further proof (actually "evidence" not "proof", but I don't want linguists who don't know the difference to assume that if I use "evidence" my case is weaker) that the words go back far since the first writing was cuneiform, that is scratched/dug onto clay tablets. Furthermore, the second meaning, that of flattening, rolling is very strange for having the same phonetic form as writing, unless, it had something to do with working with a dough-like substance (i.e. clay) and flattening and rolling it in preparation for incising it. . Cylinders with engravings were used by Sumerians which they would ?roll? over clay and they would serve as kind of ?signature? of the person, hence the ?rolling? and ?wrapping?, along with ?spreading? meanings of the related words in Turkic. Obviously, bog, marsh, clay etc are related to the material used, and the ?rolling/spreading? being the same word as ?writing? shows that these words were NOT borrowed into Turkic but came from the very people who were engaged in using this new technology. Let us continue. Now to add some spice to the meat and stew: ?384. Hatrai* ?write, send written word (about), report, declare, order, despatch? (?AP?RU ?send? [not ?ATA:RU ?write?] [Puhvel-3-91:269]; Hier. Hatur ?letter?, Hatura(i) ?write? [Puhvel-3-91:273]; Hatrai denotes using writing as a form of communication, not as the physical act of inscribing (the latter being expressed by gul?-, Hazziya- [s.v. Hat(t)], or Hattarai- [s.v. Hattara]). It is denominative from a prehistoric noun *Hatra (cf. tarmai ?to nail? from tarma ?nail?) meaning a piece of writing derived from Hat(t) (cf. e.g. Hupra ?woven garment? from *Hwebh). [Puhvel-3-91:273]; [Notice how everything is always claimed to be IE. No wonder I am always ranting against IEanists!] [Note: I use UC h i.e H for Hittite laryngeal which is represented by that strange h-looking letter. I can't find my Pullum et al otherwise I would have given you its name. HMH] [The sign ? is my way of keeping track from which of the two Hittite dictionaries the word came e.g. Puhvel or Guterbock et al]. [*The suffix -ra is one of the verbal suffixes Turkic uses. The common one is actually -lV, but both -rV, and -nV are used and show up in words, e.g. oyna, kayna, ku're, etc. I hope everyone has noticed the verbal suffixes of Hittite in this paragraph e.g. Hatra, tarmai.] Karachay-Balkar xat handwriting, calligraphy (Siunchev and Tenishev). Wow, Turkic xat! Sounds a lot like Hat, doesn't it? We seem to be really going somewhere. For other words on writing, and its relationship to the Ancient Mideast, see the beginning. Chuvash has basically conserved Sumerian for writing intact. Flattening clay in preparation for writing has been preserved in Turkic caz/yaz (to write) also. We should also note the Akkadian ?ATA:RU ?write?] [Puhvel-3-91:269]; We have been told by Turcologists (at least some of them) that Common Turkic (CT also called ?~z Turkic) s changed to h in Bolgaric/Chuvash (also called l~r Turkic). They also claim that this only happened a thousand years ago or thereabouts. There is a similar s=h equivalence in Iranian languages, but they don?t care about Turkic. They don't seem to care much about anything else either. Here we see Hittite (Hat-*) Akkadian ?AT-, and Turkic xat. What else do we need? We need to know why these words are the way they are and where they came from. [Recall what I posted only a week ago: e.g. the words for fire *athur, *athar, *adhar (as in adhar patagan (Azerbaijan), and even Egyptian atun (as in Akhen-atun), and that Turkic as nominal suffixes of the type -Vr, and -Vn, etc. and that Hittite paHHur is really pa-aHHur. Thus we see that Hittite H is magnificently matching the *th I proposed. Furthermore I also showed that Sanskrit asan (meat) seems to be nothing more than protoTurkic "as" (Chuvash meat) with the typical old Turkic suffix -Vn (and also -Vr). There are also -Vm but that for later.And finally recall that these are merely extensions of Turkic ot (fire) and Sumerian ut(u) (fire, sun). ] Let us also recall, that there are claims of k=s, and k>h So is it true that k>s? Probably not. Assume that k>s. Then circa 3,000 BC we have s in Sumerian. We also have ? in Akkadian a little later. And yet circa 1,500 BC we have H in Hittite. So if k>s and k>H, and if we have H in Hittite circa 1,500 BC. Hhow long did Hittite preserve the H? Say k>s circa 4,000 BC. Then suppose in Hittite k>H circa 4,000 BC. How did Hittite preserve H for 2500 years no change? If sounds can be preserved for 1500 years right in the thick of the main theater of history how can it be said that relationships of languages disappear "after a few thousand years"? (For this asinine comment see Larry Trask's post on evol-psych. The poor slob has not yet learned not to boast that is background is "quantitive" and then skip out on my friendly invitation to join "Language", even after I invited him at least twice in front of thousands of readers of evol-psych.] [More on this later.] [Digression: What probably happened was t>k>H in one branch, and t>th> s in another branch. We (reader and writer, not the ?royal we?) will leave this for later. Obviously, science is a cooperative venture and scientists write this way. That is how I learned to write this way. I wish some of the ?pompous ignoramii? in linguistics would learn to write like human beings.] Well, we need a smoking gun. Actually, I need a smoking gun, and will keep looking. That is how science is done. Let?s ignore it for now. Let us also add in: sat?r (line of writing, Turkish < Arabic) But the word for ?writing? in Arabic does not seem to be from the s-root. It is well known that it is KTB. Aha, the triconsonantal root. But wait, Clauson, the well-known and respected Turcologist arranged his book so that Turkic words were written as triconsonantal roots because according tohim, there is a ?bewildering? variety of vowels in Turkic and very hard to sort out. We can look at Semitic later. But Akkadian which is much earlier than Arabic has ?ATA:RU which although sounds a lot lilke sat?r, is certainly not KTB which is the root in Arabic (and in many other Semitic languages). I will post on this later. I am always thorough, just like a real scientist. Damn! That k>s problem again. No wonder I have been asking about this for years. I asked on sci.lang, and on other lists. Still no solution. No hope from linguists. I think this is too long already. A few days is needed to digest. George, are you still there? How do you feel about an amateur doing this? -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 8 05:36:39 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 01:36:39 -0400 Subject: [language] IE word for tongue Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> I just found something very interesting and which is relevant. It is from Hock, Principles of Hist Ling, p. 304 I will first copy some material and then point out the obvious. --------------------------------- A case in point is the IE word for 'tongue'..... we can be sure that there must have been a word for 'tongue' in IE. ... However as far as phonological shape of this word is concerned (especially of its initial consonant) the comparative evidence is quite uncertain..... [Leaving out [most] diacritical marks] (49) Oscan fangva Lat. lingua OLat. dingua OIr teng(a)e Gmc *tungwo: OCS jezyku Lith. liezuvis Skt. jihva Av. hizu Toch. B. kantwo ------------------------------------------------- There are more interesting comments that follow this but maybe another time. First, throw out Old Church Slavonic. That is a clear-cut case of borrowing (of all languages) from Turkic. The root in Oguz is yaz, and in Kipchak caz/jaz. Today's Turkish yaz? is from an earlier *yaz?k/*yaz?gh. It might even exist exactly in this form in Clauson. The word for tongue in Turkic is 'til' and that for tooth is 'tish'. Secondly, Anttila has a famous example of "ti" in Sumerian and why and how it means both "arrow" and "life". I wrote a 60 page paper on this and it is probably floating around but it is hard to get people who spent their lives memorizing things to get them to view anything objectively or even view it at all except by a kind of a vote. They think that is how science is done. Anyway, let's go to why it is so. There are a zillion words derived from these. The main meaning of that (and that of a related word t>s, sig) is that it is a long pointed thing (Lahovary). Both Turkish til (tongue), and tish (teeth) are long pointed things. So is an arrow. But why "life" ? (Yes, in Turkic tiri (alive), and tin (life) come from this word.) And so does Iranian jan in all likelihood. The main reason is that in those old days, without metal tools, to make arrows (or spears) one would have had to start with something as nearly straight as possible. The closest thing would be a sapling (vertical standing thing) especially those trees that don't branch out but go straight up. The meaning tik (vertical) exists in Turkic also. And there are probably a hundred others. No matter. So there it is. th > {t,l,s/sh,w} and dh > {d,r,z,y} >From *thith we immediate can obtain til, tish, teeth (yep English), teng(a)e, *tungwo etc. Some will also recall my claim earlier (about a year ago) that there is a dh>ng in Turkic but that the evidence was slim. I posited that on the basis of the simplification it introduced into derivations in the same way James Clerk Maxwell added a term to the known equations governing electricity and magnetism purely for symmetric and aesthetic reasons and derived the Laws of Electromagnetism circa 1865, a feat that the Nobel Laureate Feynman called an event of much greater significance than the American Civil War. With the additional dh> ng these pose no problem at all. To boot we also get dent- . The lingua is no problem because of th>l. I showed earlier that th=Hittite H. We know that Russian uses f for th (e.g. Skif for Scyth) thus, we now also have explanation for fangwa and hizu. That only leaves Skt. jihva and Toch B kantwo. With a little manipulation that can also be done. The second consonant is almost all ng, and since th>dh>ng no problem at all. That leaves the hv of Skt and z of Av. But th>dh>z takes care of Av, and that only leaves Skt. And finally, the quote from the bottom of the page of Hock. "Finally, what remains unexplained is why this word should have undergone so many unusual, metathetical or contaminatory changes." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, I can also easily explain some of the other comments on the page, e.g. dacrima OLat vs lacrima. This is about as unusual as the names Tabarna and Labarna one finds in the Ancient Mideast. That is also quite easily explicable now. But in the book I also explain what these words mean and where they come from. Time to do some real work now. Stefan, why are you so quiet? Are you racing to beat me to publication? -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 8 13:43:56 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 09:43:56 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: A nice game] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> To Linguist list Your server is infected. PS. Maybe some subscribers on Language know the folks at the LinguistList.org. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: A nice game Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 21:31:20 +0800 (CST) From: linguist To: hubey at pegasus.montclair.edu This is a very nice game This game is my first work. You're the first player. I hope you would like it. ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sat May 11 21:01:45 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:01:45 -0400 Subject: [language] God Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Follow up to my previous posts on God, fire/sun/heat e.g. Atun (Akhen-Atun) Ahura (Mazda), Atar *athar, *adhar, ut(u) fire, sun, light Look at these developments th>dh>d Adonai = Adonis =~ Atun, etc th > l gives Allah, Elohim, El i.e Atun > Adon or *Athun > atun > adon- etc The smoking gun can be found in Berger's book on Semitic: Gadhamsi Berber o:fa (fire).. [The question is if oth > o:fa or, o:fa > *oth etc. Since o seems to be a late development we have to go with one of /iua/. The earliest branches seem to have split into /a/, and /u/. Then maybe /i/ or we just don't see it because the others got into writing. But then again, there are gods like Ishten, Ishtar, etc.] Thus the existence of some root *ath, or *uth, and the earliest can be, traced to Sumerian ut(u), and much later Turkic ot. There is also a k=m equivalence between Turkic and Sumerian (Tuna's book) This is likely due to the sound change paths p>t>k in one branch and p>b>m in another. Thus from Moloch=Melech = Malik in the other branch we expect *Koloch=*Kelech=*Kalik The roots of these can be found in: gal (high, Sumerian, as in lu-gal=high/great man=king, lord), and KalI: (high, Clauson), kalk (to rise, get up), kalka (to soar) in Turkic, and with some manipulation khakan, kaghan, shogun, etc.] "Mal" has to do with strength and "male" something in Hittite. I don't have the book here. To continue: th>sh produces Shaddai, thus shad < *shadh < *thadh possibility exists. Thus words such as *Tudh(a) (Tura, Turan). [Tura is the Chuvash God] But with dh>ng the other form(s) must have been; Tang, Tangri, Tenger, dingir (Sumer) [Then there is Torah, and Turkic to"r, both likely related to some concept of supernatural force/entity.] But then there is also *shad- > shar, tsar, cherig/cheriw And again, with t>k *Tudha > Kuda > Xuda. (Alleged Iranian gods) which somehow got into Turkic going in the wrong direction to sound flow. PS. There are hundreds of these. The only trick to finding these patterns is i) in NOT EXPECTING to find cognates that differ in a single sound but multiple ones. ii) secondly, to realize that the heuristic method of linguistics distorts reality by throwing out data. What we see is that words spread out accross traditional family boundaries. iii) he third is to always remember that regular sound change DOES NOT equal only descent from an ancestor but also takes place in borrowing. The real problem is in trying to distinguish between borrowing, massive borrowing, and effect of new language learners on the language vs slow-evolutionary changes in sounds in "real" descent from an ancestor. ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 12 01:37:27 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:37:27 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: Re: JQL-182 (fwd)] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: JQL-182 (fwd) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 16:06:21 -0500 From: "H. M. Hubey" To: Reinhard Koehler References: Reinhard Koehler wrote: > > Dear colleague, > the paper you submitted by email is under review. However, the form, i.e. > the pdf file, is hardly readable. I do not know why, but the letters are > printed overlapping so that one often has to guess the words. As it is a > pdf file, we cannot change the font or anything. > For the publisher - rather the printers - we would need anyway a machine > operable file format. Could you please provide a version in plain ascii or > a wordprocessor format (MS Word, preferably) with the diagrams and tables > separately? > Thank you very much for your cooperation! I mailed paper copies of both manuscripts and a CD that has .pdf, .ps, .doc and .txt versions of both manuscripts to Mr. Hans Holm earlier in the week. Everything you seek should be on the CD. If you need anything more please do not hesitate to email me. There is a postscript interpreter (for free) named Ghostscript for Windows platform. In addition the Acrobat Reader from Adobe (version 4.0) is also free and available from the Adobe.com website. As you probably know .pdf is now the standard used by NSF documents available on the WWW so like .ps (also from Adobe) it is a de facto standard (like LaTex). Of course, .doc format is the de facto standard for word processing. So I have included all three. A postscript compatible laser printer will make beautiful copies of text, equations and graphics from either Ghostscript or Acrobat Reader. Sincerely, -- M. Hubey, Computer Science /\/\/\/\...I love humanity. It's people I can't stand.../\/\/\/\/\/\/\ hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu =-=-=-= http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 12 01:38:21 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:38:21 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: Manuscripts] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Manuscripts Date: Fri, 31 Mar 00 10:32:00 GMT From: Hans_Holm at h2.maus.de (Hans Holm) Organization: MausNet (Mitglied im IN e.V.) To: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Dear Prof. Hubey, Of course I received 2 different manuscripts. 1. "Mathematical Methods in Historical Linguistics: their use, misuse and abuse" Question: Is this changed in respect to my version of may 23, 1999? 2. "The Comparative Method" - Dated 3/10/00; Question: What am I supposed to do with that? It seems really better than the first one. Regards Hans J. Holm D-30629 Hannover ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 12 01:40:13 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:40:13 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: mail] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Dear Dr. Koehler, I have heard nothing about my manuscripts and you do not answer my emails, yet the issues of IQLA journal keep coming out. What can possibly excuse holding manuscripts submitted to the journal for 3 years? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: mail Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:23:00 +0200 From: Hans_Holm at h2.maus.de (Hans Holm) Organization: MAUS Hannover 2 To: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Sir, HMH>Is there any news about the manuscripts? .. What do you mean by news? I sent the report on the manuscripts to Prof. Koehler, as required. He is the editor. Regards Hans J. Holm D-30629 Hannover ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 12 01:42:03 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:42:03 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: Re: JQL-182 (fwd)] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: JQL-182 (fwd) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 11:06:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Reinhard Koehler To: "H. M. Hubey" Dear colleague, I did not know that you were in contact with Hans Holm. Now I see that my message was superlfluous. > I mailed paper copies of both manuscripts and a CD that has > .pdf, .ps, .doc and .txt versions of both manuscripts to > Mr. Hans Holm earlier in the week. Everything you seek should > be on the CD. If you need anything more please do not hesitate > to email me. There is a postscript interpreter (for free) named > Ghostscript for Windows platform. In addition the Acrobat Reader > from Adobe (version 4.0) is also free and available from the > Adobe.com website. TZhank you. However, I do have Ghostscript and Acrobat Reader (as well as Acrobat Destiller, Acrobat Exchange and others). The problem was in fact that your paper was stored in the pdf file in an amlost anreadable way, and Ghostscript, Reader and everything could just reproduce this bad picture. As you probably know .pdf is now the standard > used by NSF documents available on the WWW so like .ps (also from > Adobe) it is a de facto standard (like LaTex). Of course, .doc > format is the de facto standard for word processing. So I have > included all three. A postscript compatible laser printer will > make beautiful copies of text, equations and graphics from either > Ghostscript or Acrobat Reader. Unfortunately not, as stated above. Hope that the new version will work. Best regards yours Reinhard K?hler ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Sun May 12 01:42:23 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 21:42:23 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: mail] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: mail Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:23:00 +0200 From: Hans_Holm at h2.maus.de (Hans Holm) Organization: MAUS Hannover 2 To: HubeyH at Mail.Montclair.edu Sir, HMH>Is there any news about the manuscripts? .. What do you mean by news? I sent the report on the manuscripts to Prof. Koehler, as required. He is the editor. Regards Hans J. Holm D-30629 Hannover ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Mon May 13 00:25:07 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 20:25:07 -0400 Subject: [language] Re: A Little Action Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> I wonder if list subscribers would not mind switching to the thing called "lexical diffusion", a term apparently coined by Wm. Wang and maybe co-author. This has theoretical serious repercussions for historical linguistics. > -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Mon May 13 00:51:04 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 20:51:04 -0400 Subject: [language] heoretical question Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Suppose I find that language X has some word ^%$#*^ which has N meanings. Then I find that language Y has N different (but similar) words which match these N meanings of language X. What does this mean? 1) The N words of langauge Y have collapsed into a single form in language X. 2) The word had only a single meaning, but got N meanings but retained its sound shape/form in language X but for some reason split into N different forms in language Y. Any others? -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Mon May 13 00:56:01 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Sun, 12 May 2002 20:56:01 -0400 Subject: [language] (no subject) Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> I am curious about this entry. This word "yeli" must also exist in Iranian. What does it mean? #516. leli (mng unknown) Hurr. term in MH and NH festivals of Hurr. background, all NS [GHL-N:60]; eliya 1) lightning 2) pagan. ehlia (god of a lightning) Turkmen songs and Circassian Nart Stories have the refrain ?Yeli, Yeli?. It seems to have spread around but apparently nobody knows what it is. In Saga 42 of the book on Circassian Nart stories Colarusso [2002] records Bzhedukh [West Circassian] hymn of the old men and women to the God of lightning in the form of a round dance. Yeli, Yeli, do not burn our village, Yeli, Yeli, do not strike the forest of God's grove, ... Yeli, Yeli, taking hold of one another we dance in a circle. Yeli, Yeli, we dance around the tree of God's grove. ... Yeli, Yeli, those who refuse to enter meet great lightning. ... According to Colarusso[2002], the name of the storm god, is also that for 'poisonous snake,' suggesting old cultic iconography. Among the Iroquoian speaking Huron or Wendat of Northeast North America the sign for lightning was also a snake.[Colarusso]. It is amazing that Turkish for snake is also c?lan/y?lan, (ilan in Azeri), and Illuyanka in Hittite. It is thought that the refrain 'Yeli, yeli' is from the name 'Elia' or 'Ilia', the prophet Elijah, widely worshipped as a sort of lightning/storm god in the Caucasus and the steppes to the north [Colarusso]. One Circassian name for Mount Elbruz is Yeli-place, that is, 'God's place ,' or 'Elijah's place,' which is also known in Circassian as mountain-blessed, 'The Blessed or Sacred Mountain' [Colarusso2002]. It is known as Mingngi Taw in Karachay-Balkar. The Minni (Manneans) are mentioned in ancient history of the Mideast and they show up in the Caucasus. See the beginning. In Karachay-Balkar july is eliya-ay. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Tue May 14 14:31:07 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:31:07 -0400 Subject: [language] Protoforms of IE words Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Can some IEanists please tell me the protoforms of these English words: kiln < *kilin < .......???? oven < * offen or *offnen? < ..... Thank you. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 15 02:38:21 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 22:38:21 -0400 Subject: [language] (no subject) Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Some words. Where they are not marked they are from Karachay-Balkar. The others from Turkut (clauson), Chuvash, Turkish, etc are marked. qatala furious qat 1) liter., figurative to harden, to get stronger; to become firm (strong); 2) to dry up; 3) tempered; qatxan qur? hardened steel 4) stick (into) eyes, to stare, to be fixated; 5) to stiffen; grow torpid; 6) to die (more often, child); qat? I 1) liter., figurative firm, strong, rigid; 2) abrupt; 3) hard, tight; 4) heavy, fast; 5) figurative severe, ruthless, rough 6) figurative strict; ~ ustaz strict teacher; qat??d?rew?k (-g?) karach. 1) mixed, hashed, confusing 2) chaotic, slovenly, disorderly, disorganised, slap-dash; ol ~ kibikdi he/she a little slovenly qat??d?r 1) to prevent, to mix; 2) to confuse; ba??m? qat??d?rma do not confuse me; 3) to entangle, to involve; bu i?ge meni kim qat??d?rd?? who entangled me in this business? qat?? 1) to be prevented, to mix up, to mix up with; 2) to be confused; qat???b turama I am confused; 3) figurative to interfere, to get mixed up; to participate in; s?zge ~? to interfere with conversation; qat??maz?a to not interfere; 4) to be disarranged (about hair) qat???w action name to qat???r?a participation, intervention qat??l? having an impurity, with an impurity, dirty qat??ma mix; mess qat??-qura 1) chaos, disorder, mess chaotic 2) medley; ~ eterge to mix. to make medley kat- to mix (two things), to add (something acc.) see 1 kar-.[Clauson72:594] kat?gh hard, firm, tough[Clauson72:597] katk? harsh, hard, hearted [Clauson72:598] kat?k (katuk) something mixed into something else the edge [Clauson72:598] kat?n e.g. ya:gh kat?nd? the man pretended to mix the parched grain [Clauson72:603] kadh?r grim, brutal, oppressive, dangerous[Clauson72:603] kadh?r k??[Clauson72:603] [Notice that Turkut still had the phoneme dh [Clauson] circa 700 CE] kurut Dev. N. fr. kur?: dried curds used as a kind of hard cheese[Clauson72:648] kur?:- to be, or become dry[Clauson72:646] kar?m - a moat, town ditch, and the like; lit. (a moat filled by) a single overflow of water[Clauson72:659] kuya? ?the blazing heat of the sun, ?the sun?[Clauson72:679] qawal gun (without rifling in a trunk), shot-gun qawdan dry herb (on a root), winter pasture; ~ mal cattle on pasture, to a forage (winter) qawgha 1) quarrel, scandal, abuse; turmoil; revolt; 2) alarm, excitement qaw?a to perish; uru?da ~ to lose a fight; art??a ~ to overturn qawursun dried, dry, ~ bi?en the overdried hay Turkish kavur (to roast) qaynar hot; ~ suwda cuw wash up in hot water qayna 1) to boil; 2) to be cooked; 3) to be in a state of fermentation(unrest); 4) to grow together; s???an s?yek qayna?and? the broken bone has grown together, the bone has fused 5) liter., figurative to storm, to rage; 6) to be angry, to be indignant; qazan kettle (copper), cooking pot; kazan; et ~ (or a?) meat boiler;~ qara soot; Chuvash xuran kettle [Krueger61:240]; Turkish kazan, cooking pot. q?z 1) to be heated, to speed up; have/run a temperature; rot , decay; figurative to burn, to inflame; get/fly into a passion, blaze up, fly into a rage; temir q?z?and? iron is hot; tepseb q?zghan ot the inflamed fire; qulaqlar?m q?zad?la my ears burn; q?zar 1) liter., figurative to redden; k?zleri q?zar?and?la his eyes have reddened; suwuqdan beti? q?zar?and? your face reddened from the cold; beti q?zard? he blushed; q?p-q?z?l ~ to be heated to red; q?zar?an k?zle inflamed eyes; q?zarm?? bolur?a to redden; q?zar?b qal?r?a to flush red; 3) to be angry; q?zara-a?ara between worrying and excitement (reddening and whitening) q?z?l 1) red; a?? ~ , ~ ala bright red; scarlet; q?z?an i. 1) partic. from q?z; 2) hot; heated up, heated; [Serious attention should be paid to the last word and such words in Turkic. Notice how the word is derived from the root. I cannot show the consonant that shows up as ?. It is really gh in karachay-Balkar and soft-g in Turkish. In Turkish the word would be q?zan. If there ever was a mystery as to the meaning of the -Vn, -Vl, and -Vr suffixes, the answer might lie here as unbelievable as it sounds, but I am still not sure whether I should believe it. I am still doing more research on this.] q?z?n refl. 1) to take a great interest, to be interested; 2) to be tempted; q?z???an tempted, charmed. q?z?n?w gerund from q?z?n enthusiasm, eagerness, stimulus, interest; [Recall the -U suffix of Akkadian e.g. ISHITU (heat)] [Recall Turkic k= m Sumerian e.g. p>t>k in Turkic but p>b>m in Sumerian.] Sumerian mir ?anger? (MSL,IV,35) Turkic k?z ?to be angry, cross?. Chuvash kerle to murmur, rustle, roar [Krueger61:222]. Chuvash xer to glow, become glowing [Krueger61:239]; Chuvash xerle red [Krueger61:239]; Chuvash xevel sun [Krueger61:240]; Chuvash xut to heat [Krueger61:240] There are dozens of related words. Now we move onto another vowel. qur?aq (-??) 1) dry; ~ bi?en dry hay; ~ otun dry fire wood; 2) figurative dry, constrained, with restraint; 3) figurative empty, useless; ~ s?z jabber, empty conversation, fine words; 4) rare dry, thin, lean; wiry, sinewy; ~ adam thin man 5) rare a drought, dry; qur?aqs? 1) to dry up; awuzum qur?aqs??and? my throat is dry/parched; quw II tinder, match; ~ qab?nd? the tinder has lit up; ka:v tinder kav, kaw, ko:, ku:, kagh, kogh. l.-w. in Persian. ka:v tinder [Clauson72:579]; [There are Turcologists and others who read dictionaries who today claim that these words are from Iranian.] quw III 1) dry; ~ otunla dry fire wood; ~ eterge to dry; 2) liter., figurative dried up, dried, faded; ~ terek a dried tree; ~ bolur?a a) to dry up (for ex. about a tree); 3) gaunt, scrawny; lean; poor, emaciated, skinny; ~ bolghun! a damnation may you be gone! [This preterite form e.g. ( -ghun!) is identical to Hittite. See the book by Held.] quwur 1) to fry; et ~ to fry meat quwurma cook. fried food k?k?rt karach. sulfur (chemical element) sulfuric k?l ashes; ashen; [It is possible that at one time, the ?vl suffix behaved like the ?vn suffix so that the changes might have been *k?y?l > k?l, similar to *k?y?n > k?n (sun). There is also a low-vowel version i.e. kuya?] k?ll?m right in the sun, in the full blaze of the sun k?n 1) sun; 2) [light] day, daytime; 3) day; k?nd?z I. day, day time; 2. day; k?w karach. lit., mus. song - weeping; ~ le songs - weeping; k?y balk. same as k?w k?yd?rgen 1) partic. from k?yd?r?rge; 2) sharp; burning; k?g ?song, melody?[Clauson72:709] k?s- ?to be angry, offended; to sulk?[Clauson72:748] k?yd?r?w?? incendiary; fiery, incendiary, inflammatory; ~ bomba incendiary bomb k?y 1) liter., figurative to burn; 2) to scald, to be burnt (for ex.. by tea) 3) to vanish in vain, to turn to ashes; q?y?n?m k?yd? my work was in vain; a?ham bo?una k?y?b ketdi I lost all my money 4) to experience, grieve (for); grieve: i?inden ~ a) to experience [internally]; b) bitterly to regret k?ygen 1) partic. from k?y; 2) burnt; charred; burnt; k?l ?ashes, cinders? [Clauson72:715] k?z ?burning embers? ; kor in Trk see also koze i.e. [Clauson72:756] k?ze:- ?to poke a fire, stir up the burning embers?[Clauson72:757] k?ze? - poke (fi tahrit) the fire?; [Clauson72:762] Now for what seems like a change of pace (but not really). kaz- and ka??:?to carve, engrave?[Clauson72:681] kazgha:n ?a very old one, xuran ?cauldron? [Clauson72:682] k?ri- ?to dig up (the ground); to shovel(snow)?, and the like.[Clauson72:737] k?rt?k ? snowdrift, deep snow?[Clauson72:739] qaz 1) to dig; to hollow 2) to extract; alt?n ~ to extract gold; 3) to rummage; The ?unsolved? problem of the meaning of ?kazak? and ?kazar?, qazan (kazan) might also be found in the sound shifts of Turkic languages. It means ?to dig?. Only in Turkish does gez mean ?to wander? (also kez, Clauson72:757). Herodotus [HerO97:327] states that the Scythians cooked meat by putting the meat in the stomach of the animal with some water, and then using that as the ?cooking pot? and using the bones and fat of the animal for fuel. Miziev [MizI96:48] gives references to this way of cooking observed relatively recently, except that he describes the process in more detail. A pit is dug, and a fire started in it using grass, and the bones of the animal. Then the stomach of the animal with the meat inside mixed with some water is put in the pit. This relates the word for digging with cooking, specifically with the word for a make-shift cooking pot. We already know that Sumerian har (meaning ?to dig?) [TunO90:17] is cognate with Turkic kaz with the same meaning. The answer is very suggestive, some peoples who did not have cooking pots (not even ceramic ones) and who probably were on the move a lot (i.e. nomads) used this method of cooking. It is hardly worth pointing out that the common Turkic word for cooking pot which is qazan/kazan can hardly be obtained from kaz meaning ?goose? (which might even be a loan from IE if not protoworld) or from qaz/kaz meaning ?to dig? any other way. Once again this can be found to go back to Sumerian era [TunO90:13]. Kurgan is from Turkic and means ?grave? or ?tumulus? for a grave. Furthermore, the word for ?stomach? is qar?n which seems to belong to a set of early words such as qoyun, q?y?n, boyun, qal?n, qat?n, k?rk?n etc. Another alternative for Turkish gez meaning ?to wander? is from k?? but this word also has the same k? root having to do with things like digging, burying (k?m,g?m), sinking (k?mek, TunO90:12]), and underground things (k?m?r) which are again apparently related to the same idea. This idea explains why there are people called kashog, or kashogian north of the Caucasus when the Turkic peoples are all supposed to be east of the Altays according to standard history. Incidentally, the kar root must go back to quite ancient times since reflexes can be found in Proto-Korean as *kar-. Many such words can be found in present day languages: kar > kar?k (furrow in archaic Turkish); kazu (to dig, Tatar); x?r (dig, Chuvash); qaru (to dig ,Classical Mongol); xaru (to dig, Khalkha); q?r (to scrape in Karachay-Balkar, and Kazakh). We also have the names of instruments from the same roots: k?re > k?rek(shovel) ; ka??> ka??k (spoon); kaz > kaz?k (peg) or kaz? > kaz?k. There are related words; kurgan (burial grave/mound); k?r (grave, Turkish, Karachay-Balkar, etc); kara (land, said to be Arabic); qora (to disappear, to die, Karachay-Balkar); Turkish doublet karma-kar???k (from kar to mix, stir (overturn earth?). Therefore the word qazan (cooking pot) really is from qaz (to dig). Therefore the words kazak (>cossack), hussar (<><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 15 13:14:28 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 09:14:28 -0400 Subject: [language] The root of "sun" Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> What is the root of English "sun". It has the -Vn root, and seems remarkably related to other roots for "burning", "fire" etc. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Wed May 15 14:20:46 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 10:20:46 -0400 Subject: [language] Re: The root of "sun" Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> "H.M. Hubey" wrote: > <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> > > What is the root of English "sun". > > It has the -Vn root, and seems remarkably related to other roots for > "burning", "fire" etc. I can't resolve this problem. Many IE words have sun, sonne, zon, sunna, sol, sole etc. Even in Germanic there is sol. So once again we see almost free interchange of l=r=n. Then there is Turkic kan IE sang. Turkic ku"n, IE sun. There is much more. But there is evidence that it was earlier with t, e.g. tu"t (to smoke), tuman (smoke), tuban (mist), tIbIr (hearth), Sumerian tab, tamIdh (Clauson) but Turkic kab(in) etc. Nilo-Saharan also has something like *tu (for fire, smoke etc). So once again, is there a t>s and t>k or was it really k>s. Still looking for the smoking gun. BTW, others Celtic has gr roots (e.g. kIr/kIz etc e.g. red) like Slavic kr- for red. Sanskrit has aruna, and arusa (other words for sun) e.g. from *athun, *athur, etc. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Mon May 20 15:32:26 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 11:32:26 -0400 Subject: [language] Sensationalism in Science and Philosophy Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> The discussion is closed but there is no reason why others can't read what I wrote. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Sensationalism in Science and Philosophy Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 00:57:48 -0400 From: "H.M. Hubey" To: The LINGUIST Network ,ploch at languages.wits.ac.za, dan_everett at sil.org I would like to thank Dr. Ploch for his long post clearing the air and clarifying the confused state of matters. I would also like to add a few comments which are germane. First of all, these discussions are extremely important for linguistics. Around the 1930s people like Paul Samuelson were known as "mathematical economists". Today "economist" means "mathematical economist". And the term "literary economist" is reserved for those who would like to litter the landscape with tossed word salads. To me a person is a "literary economist" like Jules Verne is a "literary physicist". Obviously, Verne was a science fiction writer. One day there will also be "literary linguists". The times are changing, and they always did. Around 1950 "computer" was a human, like an engineer, or accountant. Hence the words for machines had the adjective "automatic" in front of it e.g. EDVAC, UNIVAC etc, because at that time sophisticated-machines were called "automatic". One day, the adjective "mathematical" will not be necessary when using the word "linguist". Over the last 300 years or so strange things have happened and strange ideas have become sold as 'truth'. I was shocked to find one of my students put on her web page that she 'practices wiccan'. All this is due to lack of knowledge about what science is. And it is not really very recent, but has been going on for centuries. The great [anti] hero of movies and films moved into the science field and usurped it. The earliest such event was the ridicule heaped upon Isaac Newton and his "mathematics" by the philosopher Berkeley (and his cronies who called Newton to their "court" and [allegedly] demolished his whole edifice) who today is not known for much more than what can best be explained as "what I don't see does not exist." The story of science has been told incorrectly by those who had a lot to lose from its successes. Let us not forget that Newton did "natural philosophy" (not "physics"). The best explanation of why science developed the way it did and why it had to essentially this deterministic path is in August Comte's book. (Unfortunately, I could only read the English translation by Andreski, not the original French.) But he too was put away by those who had much to lose, and who did not understand what was written. Then during this century we had Feyerabend who "proves" that witchcraft is science. When he gave this talk at Stanford a student asked him why he does not fly brooms instead of airplanes, and his answer was "I understand planes but not brooms."! How can this con-artist even show is face anywhere? Then finally, the dam burst when that ignoramus Searle decided to do one better and wrote his little work on why there will never be intelligent machines. There was a companion article in the Scientific American by the philosopher couple Mr/Ms Churchland. It is only too painfully clear that Searle does not even understand what was written, and has no ability to even think of complex issues in that article of his in Scientific American. But this is all what post-everything movement is about. There was a great deal of ridicule of Searle, which like a true con-man he merely termed "hostility". But it looks like the tide has turned. The big attack was launched by two physicists, Sokol and Bricmont, and it was the hoax article which they got published in a prestigious journal. In fact, one can find the website where there is a "postmodernism generator". It creates a new postmodernist article automatically everytime you click on the button. That is how much gibberish there is in that movement which, to me, includes people like Feyerabend, Searle, and Kuhn. Nothing succeeds like success, and it looks like things are going back to sanity. All of this is not much more than earlier replays of what Bill Gates did to the world (mostly America). A much more reliable operating system Linux is available for free. Just think a minute. If there were free cars outperforming Lexus, Benz, Infiniti and BMW, how long would these manufacturers stay in business? The WebServer Apache was so good that there is even a version of it that runs on Gates' Windows operating systems and yet he still sells his IIS. Why? Most people say that they use Windows only because they have to use MS-Office and that because their old files are in these packages. But there is Star-Office, which is probably still free and it produces basically MS-Office compatable files. So why does Bill Gates still hold the world by its testicles? That is the same reason why Feyerabend, Kuhn, Searle are still enjoying a kind of [anti] hero fame. Who are they fighting and why are they so popular? Obviously, I recommend reading Popper, Comte, and others who wrote on science like Mach, Frank, Paulos, Schroedinger, etc. Their works are less "heroic" than those of Feyerabend, Searle and Kuhn but they are much closer to the mark on how science is and was really done. And that is why linguists should broaden their readings to others than those who are greatly popular in the "mainstream". Look at Gates' Windows and Office? Free products are better than those. That speaks volumes about the mass marketing of products and ideas. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Tue May 28 01:03:50 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 21:03:50 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: [evol-psych] Report: chimps used simple tools 5 million years ago] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Report: chimps used simple tools 5 million years ago May 23, 2002 Posted: 2:13 PM EDT (1813 GMT) By Peter Dykstra CNN Sci-Tech WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An archaeological dig in West Africa has revealed evidence that chimpanzees used primitive tools as long as five million years ago, according to an international team of scientists. The evidence is in the form of 479 fragments of rudimentary stone hammers that the chimps used to crack open nuts at the close of what is known as the Miocene era, when Ice Age conditions cooled the planet, according to their report in this week's journal Science. The fragments -- found at a site in Tai National Park in the Ivory Coast -- closely resemble similar tools used by hominid (pre-human) species about the same time, offering opportunities to learn more about the history of human tools as well as providing a rare look into how other primate species developed, the researchers said. "This introduces the possibility of tracing the development of at least one aspect of ape culture through time," said Julio Mercader, an archaeologist at the George Washington University In Washington, D.C. Mercader and GWU colleagues conducted the investigation with researchers from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany. Full text http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/05/23/chimps.tools/index.html __________ ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Thu May 30 01:11:20 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 21:11:20 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: [evol-psych] Near Eastern languages came from Africa 10,000 years ago] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [evol-psych] Near Eastern languages came from Africa 10,000 years ago Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 17:22:04 +0100 From: Ian Pitchford Reply-To: Ian Pitchford Organization: http://human-nature.com/ To: evolutionary-psychology at yahoogroups.com ESHG 2002 - Day 4 - Tuesday 28 May 2002 Report: Near Eastern languages came from Africa 10,000 years ago Investigator: Ene Metspalu Tuesday May 28th, 2002 by Laura Spinney Analysis of thousands of mitochondrial DNA samples has led Estonian archeogeneticists to the origins of Arabic. Ene Metspalu of the Department of Evolutionary Biology at Tartu University and the Estonian Biocentre in Tartu, claims to have evidence that the Arab-Berber languages of the Near and Middle East came out of East Africa around 10,000 years ago. She has found evidence for what may have been the last sizeable migration out of Africa before the slave trade. Genetic markers transmitted through either the maternal or paternal line have been used to trace the great human migrations since Homo sapiens emerged in Africa. But attempts to trace the evolution of languages have met with less success, partly because of the impact on languages of untraceable political and economic upheavals. Full text http://news.bmn.com/conferences/list/view?rp=2002-ESHG-4-S3 __________ The Tending Instinct: How Nurturing Is Essential to Who We Are and How We Live by Shelley E. Taylor Hardcover: 320 pages; Dimensions (in inches): 1.15 x 9.80 x 6.14 Publisher: Times Books; ISBN: 0805068376; (May 8, 2002) AMAZON - US http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805068376/darwinanddarwini/ AMAZON - UK http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805068376/humannaturecom/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Thu May 30 01:17:46 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Wed, 29 May 2002 21:17:46 -0400 Subject: [language] (no subject) Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Near Eastern languages came from Africa 10,000 years ago Investigator: Ene Metspalu Tuesday May 28th, 2002 by Laura Spinney Analysis of thousands of mitochondrial DNA samples has led Estonian archeogeneticists to the origins of Arabic. Ene Metspalu of the Department of Evolutionary Biology at Tartu University and the Estonian Biocentre in Tartu, claims to have evidence that the Arab-Berber languages of the Near and Middle East came out of East Africa around 10,000 years ago. She has found evidence for what may have been the last sizeable migration out of Africa before the slave trade. Genetic markers transmitted through either the maternal or paternal line have been used to trace the great human migrations since Homo sapiens emerged in Africa. But attempts to trace the evolution of languages have met with less success, partly because of the impact on languages of untraceable political and economic upheavals. Metspalu and colleagues analyzed inherited variations in a huge number of samples - almost 3000 - of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) taken from natives of the Near East, Middle East and Central Asia, as well as North and East Africa. mtDNA is inherited through the maternal line, and by comparing their data with existing data on European, Indian, Siberian and other Central Asian populations, the researchers were able to create a comprehensive phylogenetic map of maternal lineages diverging from Africa and spreading towards Europe and Asia. Working in collaboration with language specialists, they found that this movement 10,000 years ago, which was probably centred on Ethiopia, could well have been responsible for seeding the Afro-Asiatic language from which all modern Arab-Berber languages are descended. "This language was spoken in Africa 10,000 or 12,000 years ago," Metspalu told BioMedNet News. "We think it was around that time that carriers brought these Afro-Asiatic languages to the Near East." The language, or its derivatives, later spread much further afield. What could have triggered the movement she can only speculate. One possibility is that increasing desertification was causing famine in Africa and driving hunters further afield in search of animals. Interestingly, the lineages they traced through this 10,000-year-old migration didn't seem to get much further north than modern-day Syria or east of modern-day Iraq. There is no evidence of the lineages in the mtDNA of people from Turkey or Iran, says Metspalu. "We can't understand why this boundary [to the Arab-Berber speaking world] is so sharp," she said. "They came out of Africa, and when they reached Turkey they just stopped." She believes some kind of physical boundary, now vanished, must have impeded them. The same genetic detective work has confirmed archeological evidence that the biggest movement out of Africa occurred around 50,000 years ago - which is when Africans first settled in other continents - and that it originated in a small East African population. -- M. Hubey hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu /\/\/\/\//\/\/\/\/\/\/http://www.csam.montclair.edu/~hubey ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu From hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu Fri May 31 12:57:48 2002 From: hubeyh at mail.montclair.edu (H.M. Hubey) Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 08:57:48 -0400 Subject: [language] [Fwd: [evol-psych] One world, one tongue] Message-ID: <><><><><><><><><><><><>--This is the Language List--<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Sp!ked 30 May 2002 One world, one tongue Vive la diff?rence Patrick West The publication of the book Language in Danger: How Language Loss Threatens Our Future, by Andrew Dalby, coincides with recent gloomy predictions from Manchester University that 90 percent of the world's 5000 languages are likely to disappear by 2050. 'The linguistic equivalent of an ecological disaster is looming', concluded the UK Guardian - following claims that in 50 years' time we will all be speaking English, Hindi, Arabic, Mandarin or Spanish (1). The wording here is revealing. 'Diversity' is considered to be marvellous, for ecologists, multiculturalists and linguists. But isn't the Guardian getting carried away with its metaphors? Diversity is certainly crucial ecologically. In a complex ecosystem, remove one part of the jigsaw and things may fall apart. If the frog has no flies to eat, there will be no frogs left. With no frogs, where will the crocodiles get their dinner? And so on. But diversity in the human world is not always a good thing. Like its evil sister uniformity, diversity poses problems as well as benefits. Full text http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/00000006D912.htm __________ The Dawn of Human Culture by Richard G. Klein, Blake Edgar Hardcover: 288 pages; Publisher: John Wiley & Sons; ISBN: 0471252522 AMAZON - US http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471252522/darwinanddarwini/ AMAZON - UK http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471252522/humannaturecom/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ---<><><><><><><><><><><><>----Language----<><><><><><><><><><><><><> Copyrights/"Fair Use": http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. You are currently subscribed to language as: language at listserv.linguistlist.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-language-4283Y at csam-lists.montclair.edu