FW: [Lexicog] Theoretical constructs vs. practical reference dictionaries

[Lou Hohulin]

Thank you, Dr. Sheynin, for your good description of Arabic dictionaries.
I think the principal of 'nest-based' dictionaries is, in general, one that can be applied with various modifications to languages with complex morphology.

We are 'nesting' certain types of inflectional possibilities within the senses of root entries in the Tuwali Ifugao dictionary. Of necessity, we have to restrict those possibilities, and place many of the patterned inflections in the grammar.

Thanks again for your contribution.

Lou Hohulin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hayim Sheynin [mailto:hsheynin at gratz.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 12:58 PM
> To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Lexicog] Theoretical constructs vs. practical reference
> dictionaries
>
> The Arabic dictionaries (as most of Semitic language dictionaries) are
> predominantly nest-based dictionaries. All the forms are following entry
> word which is usually a root (mostly trilateral), then follow verbs in
> different formations, than nouns and adjectives first without prefixes, then
> with prefixes.
> Arabic public usually has access only to the dictionaries of literary
> Arabic, while spoken dialect dictionaries are reserved for linguists. The
> dialects of Arabic vary very significantly, but speakers of each dialect
> know how to speak their language and do not feel necessity to use a
> dictionary of a spoken dialect. Most of the literature written now is
> still written in literary language with some admixture of dialect words.
> For generations educational policies in Arab countries limited the study
> of Arabic to language of Qu'raan (Koran), then dictionaries of wider
> varieties of literary language appeared. From the end of the 19th cent.
> the dialect dictionaries started to appear. Most of dialectology studies
> were published in the 20th century. This field still in need of a lot of
> work.
>
> Dr. Hayim Y. Sheynin
> Adjunct Professor of Jewish Literature
> Head of Reference Services
> Gratz College
> 7605 Old York Rd.
> Melrose Park, PA 19444
> USA
>
> Tel. 215 635-7300 ext. 161; Fax: 215 635-7320
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Maxwell [mailto:maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu]
> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:11 PM
> To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Lexicog] Theoretical constructs vs. practical reference
> dictionaries
>
> Kenneth C. Hill wrote:
> > Root dictionaries do work for really sophisticated individuals. A few
> > years ago at the University of Michigan, I was shown by a PhD student
> > from Libya how to use an Arabic dictionary. I was quite impressed,
> > but now I wonder how Libyan Arabic speakers not at the PhD level
> > handle a root dictionary of Arabic? (For those of you who know
> > something about Arabic on this list: Don't just say Arabic speakers
> > do or don't. Let's try to find out how good that approach really is.)
>
> I asked this of two of our local Arabic experts.  Tim Buckwalter is our
> (computational) lexicographer and morphological parser writer.  He says:
>
> > A curious thing happened in the early 70's: Arab lexicographers
> > started compiling alphabetically-arranged Arabic dictionaries (and
> > very good ones too, like Rohi Baalbaki, 1990) while Western
> > lexicographers stuck to the traditional root arrangement. The lookup
> > process in alphabetically-arranged lexicons requires some knowledge
> > of inflectional morphology (for finding the citation form of a verb,
> > or the singular form of a broken plural), but the look-up process in
> > root-based dictionaries demands additional knowledge of derivational
> > morphology. The root-based system is clearly superior for language
> > learners because it invites browsing among derivationally related
> > entries, and it forces them to learn Arabic derivational morphology,
> > which is one of the most rewarding aspects of Arabic to start with!
>
> Remember that when he's coming from the perspective of a very strong second
> language Arabic speaker.
>
> Mohamed Maamouri has worked in literacy in the Arab world (e.g. with the
> World Bank), and more recently in various aspects of computational
> processing of Arabic.  He was more skeptical than Tim about the usefulness
> of root based lexicons, and very "down" on their usefulness for native
> speakers.  I asked him whether there were real ("scientific") studies on the
> matter, and he was unaware of any.
>
> In summary, I think these responses are in agreement with Kenneth's
> reservations, although of course they don't constitute the sort of hard
> evidence he's looking for.
>
>     Mike Maxwell
>     Linguistic Data Consortium
>     maxwell at ldc.upenn.edu
>
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