[Lexicog] Lexical obsolescence and politeness: the case of 'Fr äule in'

[Patrick Hanks]

Fritz (and Rudy, and Bill) -- 

Thanks for your comments, in particur for the warning about "das Mensch".  
I had no idea....  Our brief discussion really does remind one (if reminding 
were necessary) how difficult it is for non-native speakers to appreciate all 
the subtle pragmatic implicatures that native speakers largely share without 
conscious consideration. 

I checked with younger female colleagues here in Berlin about "Fräulein". 
In particular, picking up Fritz's comment, I asked:

  1. At what age does a  young woman start to be addressed as "Frau'?

  2. How is she addressed before that (e.g. would a young teenager in class
      be addressed by the teacher as "Fräulein")?

  3. Can you think of ANY circumstances in which 'Fräulein' would be used  
      nowadays?

Consensus answers (German speakers on the list no doubt know all this 
already, but for me it's a fascinating glimpse of the pragmatics of lexical 
politeness in another culture): 

1. As Fritz suggests, women become "Frau" from about the age of 16/17, 
i.e. at the age when they leave Realschule or move up to Oberstufe (senior 
classes) in a Gymnasium classes.  Many Gymnasium teachers take a few 
moments at the beginning of a first Oberstufe semester with a class to agree 
explicitly on the forms of address that will be used. Only in very few cases 
does this involve reversing from an established "Du" relationship to the more 
formal "Sie". Thus, in some Oberstufe classes there is a mixture of "Du" (for 
students who have an established relationship with this teacher) and "Sie" 
(students new to this teacher). 

2. Younger children in school, up to the age of 16 or so, are addressed by 
their given names (not as "Fräulein") and by the familiar form "Du". This is 
not reciprocal: the teacher says "Du" to the child but the child says "Sie" 
to the teacher. 

3. My colleagues could only think of joky and facetious uses of "Fräulein",
trading on its obsolete status for humorous effect. However, one young 
woman did say that her mother used to use it when telling her off.  

Your point about "mademoiselle" reminds me of Italian "professoressa", 
which sounds derogatory to my English ears (thinking of English "poetess", 
"sculptress", etc.), a connotation which apparently does not exist for 
Italian native speakers. 

I'll write separately about DWDS -- and I'll try to plug the gap in my cultural 
experience by finding a DVD of Hogan's Heroes.

Regards, 


Patrick
 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Fritz Goerling 
  To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 10:14 PM
  Subject: RE: [Lexicog] Gender neutrality in German


  Hi there Patrick, 

  Thanks for your questions and remarks. I answer below.

  Greetings,
  Fritz



    > the beautiful gender-neutral word "Mensch",

    Ah, Fritz, yes -- but how curious that the grammatical gender of "Mensch" 
    is masculine - "der Mensch".   

         Grammatical gender in German cannot be changed. It is
         totally irregular, and the fact that "Mensch" has the masculine
         article does not mean that every "Mensch" has to be a "Mann" 
        (man).  So when I say "Mensch" is gender-neutral in German, 
         I mean that it can refer to both genders.

     Don't you feel that, for the sake of consistency, 
    it ought to be neuter - "das Mensch"?   

         Good joke. Apart from that, "das Mensch" is a severe insult
         in German. It dehumanizes the person and makes him/her
         to be something undefinable, "neither fish nor fowl."

     Maybe we could start a movement
    in favour of "das Mensch und die (singular) Mädchen"?  

        Good joke again. "Mädchen" (girl) is grammatically neuter
        but that does not make the "Mädchen" neuter.

     Or are my intution 
    about this based on the fact that, as a native speaker of English, I am 
    insensitive to the truly arbitrary nature of grammatical gender in those 
    languages that have it?   

        You are right, at least for German I can say that grammatical
        gender is very arbitrary.

     I.e. does the fact that Mensch is grammatically 
    masculine and Mädchen is grammatically neuter bother only English 
    speakers -- or only me -- and not German native speakers? 

        No it does not bother German speakers. 
        We know that a "Mädchen" is feminine.

    Returning to Germany in 2003 after a 40-year absence (I spent a few months
    in Berlin when I was a student), I was struck by several language changes, for 
    example:
      
    "Fräulein" had become politically incorrect during my 40-year absence. 
    Now all women are addressed and referred to as "Frau X", without regard
    to age or marital status.  Progress?  I think so. 

        Not quite. Age stills plays a role. I don't know the exact age when
        you start to address a representative of the feminine gender by
        "Frau" but there is a cut-off age in the teenager years.
        What one calls progress another one might see in a different light.
        I have met unmarried French women over sixty who insist on
        being called "mademoiselle" (Fräulein).
         

    Considerable ingenuity is used to maintain gender-neutrality in communications 
    like emails, using slashes, parentheses, and word-internal capitals.  So, 
    someone wanting to start an email. gender-neutrally with the words "Dear 
    Colleagues" (plural) will write "Liebe KollegInnen" with a capital I in the middle 
    of the word.  The singular of this is "Liebe(r) Kolleg(in)".  Probably there is a 
    study of all this somewhere but if there is,  I don't know it.  

         These monstrous solutions you are mentioning show the difficulty
         to make German gender-neutral. 

    The problems of using English "they" as a gender-neutral singular pronoun
    (which goes back at least to the 18th century and the use of which in a 
    lexicographical context was pioneered in the Cobuild dictionary in the 1980s)
    pale into insignificance compared with equivalent problems in German.  

        You seem to be well informed. Indeed, they pale into 
        insignificance ... You can try a google search for "frauengerechte
        Sprache" and will see how few hits you get as compared with
        when you search for "gender-neutral, gender-accurate, gender-
        inclusive language" in English.
         
    And oh, by the way, another thing that changed in my 40-year absence -- 

    There are still strikingly more notices in Germany than in England telling 
    you that you are not allowed to do something, but now they tend to say 
    "nicht gestattet" (not allowed) rather than "verboten" (forbidden).  I'm not 
    sure what the pragmatic force of this is. Can you shed any light on it?  

        Sure. "Nicht gestattet" sounds nicer being more in line with a less
        strict and more relaxed contemporary German society. You will probably 
        confirm that fundamental societal change, as you live in cosmopolitan
        Berlin.  I know "verboten" is one of the sterotypes about Germans insisting 
        on stern discipline. One might hear the word in the mouth of
        Colonel Klink, the protoype of a Nazi soldier in "Hogan's Heroes".
        By the way, I get a kick out of watching "Hogan's Heroes" (an older
        American TV series) and do not feel offended at all. Have you seen it?

        I am interested in your "Digitales Wörterbuch der Deutschen
        Sprache".


    Current Address:
        Dr Patrick Hanks
        Digitales Wörterbuch der Deutschen Sprache,
        Berlin-Brandenburgische Akademie der Wissenschaften,
        Jägerstrasse 22-23,
        Berlin 10117,
        Germany.
        Phone: + 49 30 20370 539
        Fax:  + 49 30 20370 214


     
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