[Lexicog] Re: The irony of thou

[Hayim Sheynin]

Rudy,

Permit me to give a couple of comments on your message.

<<In Spanish there is a verb "tutear", "to use 'tu'" with someone, and there is a sociolinguistic ritual in inviting someone to "tutear" as a signal of a change in the
 relationship.>>

Apparently in old Russian and German societies there were also such ceremonies. In today Russian remained an expression "pit' na brudershaft" (to drink for brotherhood). It means if you drunk vodka with somebodu, you must relate to him as a brother, i.e. to use ty form instead Vy form.
The word brudershaft shows that the custom came from Germany with the German word Bruderschaft.
 
<<It is well known that in general, "tu" has overtaken "usted" throughout the
 Caribbean, which is presumably related to the late influence from
 Andalucia in the settlement of the area, as there are other features such
 as aspiration or loss of final -/s/ which are widespread in the Caribbean
 and reflect Andalucian features. In Columbia, this is characteristic of
 the coastal area. I once had a student from a remote valley of central
 Columbia who reported that only "usted" was used there, even between her
 parents.>>

Curiously many Arabs who learn Spanish accept usted (etymologically < Vuestro merced) as an Arab loan word for usta:dh (professor). than can be pronounced as ustedh.
It is known that Spanish d in the final or intervocal positions sounds as atone d.

On the whole, Rudy, you are right  about Arab influence  on  Andalucian  Spanish.
You can read works by Prof. Federico Coriente who wrote a lot on Andalucian 
Arabic. Moreover it is known that Andalucian dialect was either the core base or
a companion dialect for the most of Latin American dialects.

However the question whether the Arabic influence in Andalucia had any historical effect on the tu/usted use there require a special study.

Hayim Sheynin

rtroike at email.arizona.edu wrote:                                  
 It was, I think, Steve Marlett who once told me that after working with
 a consultant in Mexico for about 6 months, he felt sufficiently close to
 the man to use "tu" with him, but the man was so insulted that he refused
 to work with Steve any longer. As for Shakespeare's use of "thou" as a
 verb, this was undoubtedly calqued from French. In Spanish there is a
 verb "tutear", "to use 'tu'" with someone, and there is a sociolinguistic
 ritual in inviting someone to "tutear" as a signal of a change in the
 relationship.
 
 It is well known that in general, "tu" has overtaken "usted" throughout the
 Caribbean, which is presumably related to the late influence from
 Andalucia in the settlement of the area, as there are other features such
 as aspiration or loss of final -/s/ which are widespread in the Caribbean
 and reflect Andalucian features. In Columbia, this is characteristic of
 the coastal area. I once had a student from a remote valley of central
 Columbia who reported that only "usted" was used there, even between her
 parents.
 
 Hayim's comment about Arabic makes me wonder whether the Arabic influence
 in Andalucia had any historical effect on the tu/usted use there. It is
 interesting that due to European (French and German) influence, Turkish
 developed an informal/formal 2nd person distinction, using the plural
 for the formal form.
 
 Rudy Troike
 
 
     
                       

       
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