[Lexicog] Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymology

[Kenneth Keyes]

David, 
 
Thanks for responding. What I was trying to demonstrate here was that this kk phrase is a compound noun is calque derived from the Russian 
"zapis aktov grazhdanskovo sostajanijie" = record of documentation of the situation of citizens, i.e. vital statistics office. 
 
I believe while this is a phrase, "vital statistics office" functions as a noun. The phrase "vital statistics" also functions as a noun.  What I am trying to establish is, what relationship do calques have to their original "loanwords"? For example, a common kk calque for typesetting is maetin tery "to pick texts" which is a calque from the Russian nabor tekstov, lit. "collection of texts". This sounds strange in kk to me, it sounds like you're picking fruit off a tree. There are many, many such calques in kk, as the language struggles to transform itself from vocabulary suitable for nomadic herdsmen to one which can accomodate a modern technological society. 
 
Ken

   _____  

From: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com [mailto:lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Frank
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 10:18 AM
To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Lexicog] Re: Lexical Relations vs. Etymology



 

I can't read Cyrillic script and I'm not too familiar with Shoebox or Toolbox or FieldWorks, but I think I see two problems here. It looks to me like you are citing an example of a phrase, and I would not try to give an etymology for a phrase. Words have etymologies; phrases don't. Or in the case of a calque, I suppose you could consider the source from another language as being a kind of etymology, but we wouldn't usually describe phrases as having etymologies.
 
Also, I wouldn't assign a part of speech to a phrase either. It looks like you are calling this phrase a noun, and I don't think that is appropriate. A phrase may contain a noun but wouldn't be called a noun or any other part of speech. Instead of a word class label, some people might want to assign a label that would be appropriate to phrases such as "phr" or "np", but I prefer to just leave the part of speech blank for anything I would put into a dictionary that is comprised of more than one word.
 
-- David Frank
 
---- Original Message ----- 

From: HYPERLINK "mailto:ken_keyes at sil.org"Kenneth Keyes 
To: HYPERLINK "mailto:flex at lists.sil.org"flex at lists.sil.-org ; HYPERLINK "mailto:lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com"lexicographylist at -yahoogroups.-com 
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:24 AM
Subject: [Lexicog] Lexical Relations vs. Etymology


Dear All, 



Hi, I have another brainteaser for you:



What relation do Calques bear to the language they are borrowed from? For example, I have the following entries:



АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ  (АХАЖ) N  Eng vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded Kaz азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім Rus отдел записи актов гражданского состояния 

АХАЖ  Contr АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ



Cf. SFM export: 



\lx АЗАМАТТЫҚ ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ

\sn 1

\ps_en N

\d_en vital statistics offfce - where changes in the lives of citizens are recorded

\d_kk азаматтардың өмір өзгерістерін тіркеп жазып отыратын бөлім

\d_ru отдел записи актов гражданского состояния



\lx АХАЖ

\et Contr

\mn АЗАМАТТЫК ХАЛ АКТІЛЕРІН ЖАЗУ



This a calque from the Russian: 



ЗАГС  N  Eng The government office where vital statistics are recorded. Kaz азаматтық хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу Rus отдел Записи Актов Гражданского Состояния calq: АХАЖ. (sem. domains: admin. - administration.-) {coll.}



\lx ЗАГС

\sn 1

\ps_en N

\d_en The government office where vital statistics are recorded.

\d_kk азаматтық хал-ахуалды тіркейтін бөлім актілерін жазу

\d_ru отдел записи актов гражданского состояния

\lf calq

\lv АХАЖ

\is_en admin.

\sd_en administration

\u_en coll.



To handle this case, I created a lexical function called “Calque”. However, this is also the etymology of the word. How do I deal with the etymology? There are tons of these cases (of calques from Russian) in Eurasian languages. 



Thanks for considering this! 



Best regards,



Ken



 


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