[Lexicog] Idiom of Mine

[Ronald Moe]

Scott Nelson wrote:

"The second meaning is more general -- something like this: the uniqueness
and characteristics of a language."

 

Thanks, Scott. This was excellent. You mentioned (above quote) a second
meaning of idiom, but didn't expand on it (unless I missed it). Did you mean
things like the difference between "I have it," and "It is with me"? Most
languages expression possession in one of these two ways-with a verb 'have'
or with a phrase 'be with (smb)'. Is this the sort of idiom you were
referring to? -not exactly a 'set phrase' but a unique or at least
unpredictable wording.

 

We run into this sort of thing in translation. Sometimes a translation in
the target language will be worded exactly the same as the original sentence
except for differences of word order and grammar. You can match the words in
the original and the words in the translation almost on a one-to-one basis.
Other times the translation has to be "reworded" so that there is almost no
word-for-word correspondence. There may be no idioms (using your first
definition) in either the original or the translation, but the way the
meaning is expressed is 'idiomatic' (unique) in the two.

 

Ron Moe

 

  _____  

From: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
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Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 5:55 AM
To: lexicographylist at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Lexicog] Idiom of Mine

 

Ron, Wayne, Scott C., David, et al: My best, and simplified, reading 
of the definition(s) of `language idiom' (vs. 'artistic 
idiom') boil down to two main ones. The first, and I think the most 
common, is simply: a nonliteral phrase. This 
could be conisidered a synonym of 'metaphor' (meaning a nonliteral, 
figuratively used word) except that an idiom uses 
more than one word (i.e a set phrase). The second meaning is more 
general -- something like this: the uniqueness 
and characteristics of a language. 
As to what constitutes `nonliteral' is tricky, since to a native 
speaker, the common understanding of a nonliteral 
phrase renders it almost literal. For instantance, an example from 
the metaphorical category could be `fire.' The first 
time the word `fire' was used figuratively, it was indeed nonliteral 
(figurative), but what modern, native English speaker ever 
thinks of a flame when they hear someone say, "I got fired." 
I think of idioms (e.g. Get off my back!; You're barking up the 
wrong tree.), allusions (e.g. Bangalore is the 
Silicon Valley of India), proverbs (e.g. A penny saved is a penny 
earned), hyperbole (e.g. I told you a million times 
not to exaggerate.), (some) quotes (e.g. Never ask to know for whom 
the bell tolls, it tolls for thee), jargon phrases 
(e.g. What's the bottom line? (accounting), as all `idiomatic.' The 
use of the word in the adjective form here (idomatic)
is in the nonliteral phrase category -- not the `characteristics of a 
language' category. It is rather easy to see the 
meaning of the term here.
Additionally, there are deviations from a simple-listed form of 
an idiom, such as:
bring off a deal 
close a deal 
conclude a deal
cut a deal 
hammer out a deal 
ink a deal
land a deal
seal a deal
strike a deal
swing a deal 

So are there ten idioms here, or only one main idom -- with ten 
fairly interchangeable introductory verbs? 
So in terms of counting the number of idioms in the English 
language (or any language), it is on a sliding scale, 
and depends on the size of your dictionary, thesaurus, or glossary, 
and depends on your inclusion of those other 
rhetorical forms. I think I have catalogued about 25,000 -- 30,000 if 
you use that parameter. Probably about 15,000 -- 
20,000 using a more standard parameter. 

Hope this made sense, guys and gals.

Scott Nelson

 

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