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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Very good questions. Thanks for stirring up
the brain cells, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thapelo. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Let's consider an example that could be
controversial, and think </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>what guidelines we might come up with.</FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2> Thinking back to my </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>childhood in the 1950s (again), the </FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>expression </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>"nigger in the
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>woodpile" (meaning an unexpected </FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>or hidden snag) was then </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>quite common, and I believe that no one around me
at that time</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>(my parents and their circle, living in
middle-class southern </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>England, not America) </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>had any thought of </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>black people or
intention </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>to be offensive when </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>using it. I'm not denying that it IS offensive, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>just drawing attention </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>to the unthinking was in which we used idioms. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In fact, I can remember the sense of a penny
dropping back in the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>sixties when someone pointed out that it is
offensive. The expression </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>is </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>in Collins
English Dictionary (1979) but we left it out </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>of
the New </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Oxford Dict. in 1998. Why?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We felt justified in ignoring it because
(mercifully) the expression </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>seems to have become obsolete. We did not, for
example, find it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>in the British National Corpus.The language appears
to have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>regulated itself. Certainly, NODE, a
one-volume practical dictionary </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>of English, had no wish to revive the term!
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>It's more difficult for the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>OED, which is a dictionary of </FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>record on historical principles, with an </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>obligation to record </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>"the language as it is [and was], not as we would </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>wish it to be."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>About eight or nine years ago in America the NAACP
mounted</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>a campaign, in my opinion misjudged, to persuade
dictionary </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>publishers to remove the term "nigger" from
dictionaries, apparently</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>under the impression that dictionaries regulate the
language or that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>removing a word from dictionaries removes it
from the language.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Anyone who has ever travelled on the subway from
Manhattan to </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>JFK Airport will know that the term is alive and
well, and much used</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>among Black people speaking to Black people (males
only??), </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>apparentl without any hostile derogatory, or racist
intent. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>The point </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>about it is (I think -- am I right?) that
it is a word that </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>can ONLY be </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>used </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>by Black people
(or perhaps only by Black </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>Americans</FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>). In the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>mouth of a white person it is incredibly offensive,
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>breaching the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>most </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>solemn taboo
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>in the language. Such facts need </FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2>to be reported </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>lexicographically (don't they?), insofar as such
terms </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>are still used. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The lexicographer cannot regulate them, and
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>can only ignore them if </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>they die quietly by themselves. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What do other people think?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Patrick </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=thaps@yahoo.com href="mailto:thaps@yahoo.com">Thapelo Otlogetswe</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 22, 2005 2:15
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Lexicog] stereotypical beliefs
and lexicography</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>How would such derogatory information be represented in dictionaries?
"Its all Greek to me", may not be as offensive as "work like a Black" and I
would think that "work like a slave" would also be less offensive. And does a
lexicographer have a responsibility in challenging steretypes through
dictionary entries? Or his role should be better seen as that of a scientist
from without looking in as it were, merely describing the uses of
language that he sees. But does impartiality really exist in these
matters or one is either challenging the status quo or endorsing it (a
Terry Eagleton position in the later chapter of Literary Theory )? Put
differently, are certain entries like 'work like Black' racist when used
by racist communities and also racist when entered and discussed by
lexicographers? In this case the lexicographer guilty of participating in the
development and sustainance of racist views. On the other hand, would it be
accurate to leave them out from a dictionary?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><B><I>Patrick Hanks <hanks@bbaw.de></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>So
would it be true to say that Pg. "Isso é chinês para mim" = Eng.<BR>"It's
all Greek to me" (which means 'incomprehensible')?<BR><BR>"work like a slave
/ work like a Black" were common expressions<BR>in my youth, but I think
they've been driven out by poltical correctness.<BR><BR>Patrick<BR><BR>-----
Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Margarita Correia"
<MARGARITA-C@NETCABO.PT><BR>To:
<LEXICOGRAPHYLIST@YAHOOGROUPS.COM><<BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005
11:38 AM<BR>Subject: RE: [Lexicog] stereotypical beliefs and
lexicography<BR><BR><BR>><BR>> > Do all languages contain
derogatory stereotypes about neighbouring<BR>> > peoples?
...<BR>><BR>> In Portugal, we have at least one derogatory expression
about Spanish,<BR>> our "historical enemies".<BR>> We say that "De
Espanha, nem bom vento nem bom casamento" (From Spain,<BR>> neither good
wind nor good marriage").<BR>> I don't know if in Brazil they use the
same expression or if they have<BR>> others (I guess they must have some
about Argentina).<BR>><BR>> We also have several stereotypical
expressions about people from other<BR>> countries. For instance, we say
"Ver-se grego / negro para fazer<BR>> qualquer coisa" (Literally: to feel
like a Greek / black person to do<BR>> something), wich is used to
qualify things very difficult to do or very<BR>> hard (demanding lots of
strenght). Note that the words "grego" and<BR>> "negro" in Portuguese
have a very similar form.<BR>> In the case of grego, the basis of the
expression is the written form of<BR>> this language (with a different
alphabet) and for black people, the<BR>> basis is slavery, I
guess.<BR>><BR>> When something is very difficult, very tricky, we
usually say "Isso é<BR>> chinês para mim" (literally: this is Chinese for
me).<BR>><BR>> These are only some examples. We have much
more.<BR>><BR>> Have a nice time.<BR>><BR>> Margarita
Correia<BR>><BR>> margarita-c@netcabo.pt<BR>><BR>><BR>>
-----Mensagem original-----<BR>> De: Peter Kirk
[mailto:peterkirk@qaya.org]<BR>> Enviada: segunda-feira, 21 de Fevereiroo
de 2005 12:18<BR>> Para: lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com<BR>>
Assunto: Re: [Lexicog] stereotypical beliefs and
lexicography<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> On 20/02/2005 17:27, Patrick
Hanks wrote:<BR>><BR>> > Oho! Lexicographylist has woken up
again!<BR>> ><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Maybe not. I can't think
of any lexicalised examples in Azerbaijani,<BR>> although they can be
very rude about their neighbours. I wonder if that<BR>> is because
relations are too close to open warfare. I note that these<BR>>
expressions in English are not so often about modern enemies as
about<BR>> old ones, like the French, the Dutch and the Scots. I suspect
a<BR>> graduation from open warfare to residual hatred to stereotyping
with<BR>> such expressions to the lexicalisation and wider application of
such<BR>> expressions.<BR>><BR>> > ... The recent discussion of
"Dutch courage", etc. provided<BR>> > some interesting examples. Does
Dutch have derogatory expressions<BR>> > involving "English"? Or is
Dutch stereotypically more polite -- or<BR>> > more parochial -- than
English?<BR>><BR>><BR>> Just ask them how they stereotype the
Belgians!<BR>>><BR>> > ... the English stereotype for 'oasis' is
that oases are calm.<BR>> > tranquil, quiet, and green ... But my
much-travelled colleague<BR>> > Christiane Fellbaum tells me that in
reality oases are typically<BR>> > noisy, smelly, dirty places full of
bustling people and honking<BR>> > trucks. About the only things that
a stereotypical oasis in English<BR>> > has in common with the real
thing, it seems, is that it's found in a<BR>> > desert and has
water!<BR>> ><BR>><BR>> But is this because the reality of the
oasis has changed more quickly<BR>> than the image? A century ago there
would have been no honking trucks,<BR>> and probably in most cases a lot
less people. And there certainly are<BR>> still tranquil oases in some
places.<BR>><BR>> -- <BR>> Peter Kirk<BR>> peter@qaya.org
(personal)<BR>> peterkirk@qaya.org (work)<BR>>
http://www.qaya.org/<BR>>t;<BR>><BR>><BR>> -- <BR>> No virus
found in this outgoing message.<BR>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.<BR>>
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date:
21/02/2005<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Yahoo! Groups
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<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#00007f><STRONG>Thapelo Otlogetswe <BR></STRONG></FONT><FONT
color=#00007f>Information Technology Research Institute</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#00007f>University of Brighton </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#00007f>Lewes Road, Brighton <BR>BN2 4GJ,
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