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<DIV>How would such derogatory information be represented in dictionaries? "Its all Greek to me", may not be as offensive as "work like a Black" and I would think that "work like a slave" would also be less offensive. And does a lexicographer have a responsibility in challenging steretypes through dictionary entries? Or his role should be better seen as that of a scientist from without looking in as it were, merely describing the uses of language that he sees. But does impartiality really exist in these matters or one is either challenging the status quo or endorsing it (a Terry Eagleton position in the later chapter of Literary Theory )? Put differently, are certain entries like 'work like Black' racist when used by racist communities and also racist when entered and discussed by lexicographers? In this case the lexicographer guilty of participating in the development and sustainance of racist views. On the other hand, would it be accurate to leave them out
from a dictionary?</DIV>
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<DIV><BR><B><I>Patrick Hanks <hanks@bbaw.de></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>So would it be true to say that Pg. "Isso é chinês para mim" = Eng.<BR>"It's all Greek to me" (which means 'incomprehensible')?<BR><BR>"work like a slave / work like a Black" were common expressions<BR>in my youth, but I think they've been driven out by poltical correctness.<BR><BR>Patrick<BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Margarita Correia" <MARGARITA-C@NETCABO.PT><BR>To: <LEXICOGRAPHYLIST@YAHOOGROUPS.COM><BR>Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:38 AM<BR>Subject: RE: [Lexicog] stereotypical beliefs and lexicography<BR><BR><BR>><BR>> > Do all languages contain derogatory stereotypes about neighbouring<BR>> > peoples? ...<BR>><BR>> In Portugal, we have at least one derogatory expression about Spanish,<BR>> our "historical enemies".<BR>> We say that "De Espanha, nem bom vento nem bom casamento" (From Spain,<BR>> neither good wind nor good
marriage").<BR>> I don't know if in Brazil they use the same expression or if they have<BR>> others (I guess they must have some about Argentina).<BR>><BR>> We also have several stereotypical expressions about people from other<BR>> countries. For instance, we say "Ver-se grego / negro para fazer<BR>> qualquer coisa" (Literally: to feel like a Greek / black person to do<BR>> something), wich is used to qualify things very difficult to do or very<BR>> hard (demanding lots of strenght). Note that the words "grego" and<BR>> "negro" in Portuguese have a very similar form.<BR>> In the case of grego, the basis of the expression is the written form of<BR>> this language (with a different alphabet) and for black people, the<BR>> basis is slavery, I guess.<BR>><BR>> When something is very difficult, very tricky, we usually say "Isso é<BR>> chinês para mim" (literally: this is Chinese for me).<BR>><BR>> These are only some examples. We have
much more.<BR>><BR>> Have a nice time.<BR>><BR>> Margarita Correia<BR>><BR>> margarita-c@netcabo.pt<BR>><BR>><BR>> -----Mensagem original-----<BR>> De: Peter Kirk [mailto:peterkirk@qaya.org]<BR>> Enviada: segunda-feira, 21 de Fevereiro de 2005 12:18<BR>> Para: lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com<BR>> Assunto: Re: [Lexicog] stereotypical beliefs and lexicography<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> On 20/02/2005 17:27, Patrick Hanks wrote:<BR>><BR>> > Oho! Lexicographylist has woken up again!<BR>> ><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Maybe not. I can't think of any lexicalised examples in Azerbaijani,<BR>> although they can be very rude about their neighbours. I wonder if that<BR>> is because relations are too close to open warfare. I note that these<BR>> expressions in English are not so often about modern enemies as about<BR>> old ones, like the French, the Dutch and the Scots. I suspect a<BR>> graduation from open warfare
to residual hatred to stereotyping with<BR>> such expressions to the lexicalisation and wider application of such<BR>> expressions.<BR>><BR>> > ... The recent discussion of "Dutch courage", etc. provided<BR>> > some interesting examples. Does Dutch have derogatory expressions<BR>> > involving "English"? Or is Dutch stereotypically more polite -- or<BR>> > more parochial -- than English?<BR>><BR>><BR>> Just ask them how they stereotype the Belgians!<BR>><BR>> > ... the English stereotype for 'oasis' is that oases are calm.<BR>> > tranquil, quiet, and green ... But my much-travelled colleague<BR>> > Christiane Fellbaum tells me that in reality oases are typically<BR>> > noisy, smelly, dirty places full of bustling people and honking<BR>> > trucks. About the only things that a stereotypical oasis in English<BR>> > has in common with the real thing, it seems, is that it's found in a<BR>> > desert and
has water!<BR>> ><BR>><BR>> But is this because the reality of the oasis has changed more quickly<BR>> than the image? A century ago there would have been no honking trucks,<BR>> and probably in most cases a lot less people. And there certainly are<BR>> still tranquil oases in some places.<BR>><BR>> -- <BR>> Peter Kirk<BR>> peter@qaya.org (personal)<BR>> peterkirk@qaya.org (work)<BR>> http://www.qaya.org/<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> -- <BR>> No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.<BR>> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.2.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR>------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> <BR>In low
income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers.<BR>At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide!<BR>http://us.click.yahoo.com/EA3HyD/3MnJAA/79vVAA/HKE4lB/TM<BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------~-> <BR><BR><BR>Yahoo! Groups Links<BR><BR><*> To visit your group on the web, go to:<BR>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/<BR><BR><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<BR>lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<BR><BR><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:<BR>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#00007f><STRONG>Thapelo Otlogetswe <BR></STRONG></FONT><FONT color=#00007f>Information Technology Research Institute</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#00007f>University of Brighton </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#00007f>Lewes Road, Brighton <BR>BN2 4GJ, <STRONG>England</STRONG> <BR></FONT><FONT color=#444f75>Tel: (+44) 1273 642912 (office) <BR><FONT color=#00007f> </FONT>(+44) 1273 642908 (fax) <BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>http://www.itri.brighton.ac.uk/~Thapelo.Otlogetswe/</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>
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