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<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=250415915-08032005></SPAN>E<SPAN
class=250415915-08032005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=3>nglish and German
differ in this case. In German one would say:</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=250415915-08032005><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=3>"du hast den Stift
fallengelassen"</FONT> <FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=3>= you have the
pen fall let" (=</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><SPAN class=250415915-08032005></SPAN><FONT
face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=3>y<SPAN class=250415915-08032005>ou
dropped the pen) ,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
size=3><SPAN
class=250415915-08032005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
size=3><SPAN class=250415915-08032005>Fritz
Goerling</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><TT>Cheyenne:<BR><BR>Literally, "You slipped the pen", that is,
the pen slipped from you, but <BR>"you" is the subject and the pen is the
object. The Cheyenne verb here could <BR>not be used for the classroom
experiment below. It is only used for <BR>accidental dropping of the pen.
Functionally, this means "the pen slipped <BR>from you" but this is a
translative verb with "you" as subject and the pen <BR>as object. The
participant assignments may be required to be this way <BR>because Cheyenne is
an Algonquian language and has a person hierarchy that <BR>assigned subjects
and object. Animate persons rank higher on the hierarchy <BR>than inanimate
objects, so must be assigned to subject. I would think that <BR>an accurate
translation of the Cheyenne would be "The pen slipped from you." <BR>in which,
due to the person hierarchy, the subject/object roles of the <BR>partipants
are reversed. One more example where syntax does not always match
<BR>semantics.<BR><BR>Wayne<BR>-----<BR>Wayne Leman<BR>Cheyenne website: <A
href="http://www.geocities.com/cheyenne_language">http://www.geocities.com/cheyenne_language</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>><BR>>
Hi all,<BR>> This is only marginally related to lexicography, but then
we've had some<BR>> marginal discussions before...<BR>><BR>> Someone
wrote to me:<BR>><BR>> He (the teacher had one activity for
us (the class) in which he dropped<BR>> a pen, and then
he<BR>> asked us what we would say to him. ("You dropped
your pen") Then he<BR>> asked<BR>> anyone
who spoke another language how they would say it in
another<BR>> language,<BR>> and what the direct
translation was. (Usually "the pen dropped").
He<BR>> said<BR>> that only in English and in
German you would say "You dropped the pen",<BR>>
and<BR>> that ALL OTHER LANGUAGES would say "the pen
dropped". He then went on<BR>> to<BR>> say
that we can learn things about the culture from the way we
say<BR>> things,<BR>> and had us come up with
words to describe the two types of cultures<BR>> represented by
these two phrases. The majority of responses had
English<BR>><BR>> speakers being accusatory, or some other
unsavory adjective, and the<BR>> other<BR>>
speakers being much more polite and sensitive.<BR>><BR>> Anytime someone
claims a universal, my tendency is to say "Oh I bet I can<BR>> find a
counterexample." So my question to those of you who are native<BR>>
speakers of something other than English or German, what is the most<BR>>
NATURAL way to make an observation of someone dropping something, to
call<BR>> that person's attention to it? Not what is possible, but the most
common<BR>> way of saying it. Facts first, then
interpretation...<BR>><BR>> Mike Cahill<BR><BR></TT><BR>
<br>
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