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Well said, John. <br>
<br>
I think that most of those who focus on the non-compositionality of
idioms also, even if only tacitly, also include conventionality
(establishedness through usage) as a criterion. If a phrase is
non-compositional but novel, they talk of figures of speech instead of
idiomaticity. If a phrase is conventional but not saliently
non-compositional, it may be called an idiom, but is more likely to be
termed a cliché or something of that sort.<br>
<br>
For me "my soul is swallowed up in sorrow" is a perfectly
understandable figure of speech, but not conventional, even though the
extension of "swallow up" to mean something like "overwhelm" is
reasonably conventional. (Not enough to make it in as a sense in the
Webster online entry for "swallow", though, I notice.) If you allow
"swallow up" to mean overwhelm, the phrase is compositional, but if you
take "swallow (up)" only in its prototypical physical sense, the phrase
is non-compositional.<br>
<br>
--David Tuggy<br>
<br>
John Roberts wrote:<br>
<blockquote cite="mid001701c5458b$18cc4ca0$0500a8c0@johnroberts"
type="cite"><tt>
With Wayne's query: "Is "My soul is swallowed up in sorrow." an idiom
in <br>
(Modern) English?" aren't we struggling with what we understand an
idiom to <br>
be?<br>
<br>
Most definitions of what an idiom is focus on the decompositional
nature of <br>
idioms. For example, these are some definitions I pulled off the net:<br>
<br>
% an expression whose meanings cannot be inferred from the meanings of
the <br>
words that make it up<br>
% An idiom is an expression whose meaning is not compositional - that
is, <br>
whose meaning does not follow from the meaning of the individual words
of <br>
which it is composed.<br>
% An expression whose meaning is not predictable from the usual
meanings of <br>
its constituent elements, as kick the bucket, hang one's head, etc., or
from <br>
the general grammatical tules of a language, as the table round for the
<br>
round table, and which is not a constituent of a larger expression of
like <br>
characteristics.<br>
% a sequence of words which functions semantically as a unit and with
an <br>
unpredictable meaning (eg kick the bucket, meaning die). This is
generally <br>
accompanied by a degree of syntactic restriction.<br>
% an expression that does not mean what it literally says (eg, You're <br>
driving me up a wall.)<br>
% An idiom is a phrase or expression whose meaning cannot be understood
from <br>
the ordinary meanings of the words.<br>
% a sequence of words which forms a whole unit of meaning<br>
% an expression that does not mean what it literally says<br>
% is a group of words that, taken as a whole, has a meaning different
from <br>
that of the sum of the individual words<br>
--- and so on<br>
<br>
Under any of these definitions "My soul is swallowed up in sorrow." is
an <br>
English idiom.<br>
<br>
But some of the definitions pick out another understanding of what an
idiom <br>
is - and that is a common expression well known to the speakers of the <br>
language. E.g.<br>
<br>
% A common expression that has acquired a meaning that differs from its
<br>
literal meaning, such as "It's raining cats and dogs" or "That cost me
an <br>
arm and a leg."<br>
% an expression in the usage of a language that has a meaning that
cannot be <br>
derived from the conjoined meanings of its elements (eg, raining cats
and <br>
dogs)<br>
<br>
On this basis "My soul is swallowed up in sorrow." is not an English
idiom.<br>
<br>
A while ago we had someone on this list asking if he could make up
English <br>
words. He was told he could but whether they would catch on and
actually <br>
'become' English words was another matter. Isn't it the same with this
idiom <br>
of Wayne's. Someone has made it up and it qualifies as an idiom in a <br>
technical sense but it has never caught on because most English
speakers <br>
have never heard of it.<br>
<br>
John Roberts<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</tt>
</blockquote>
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