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<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=#000000>Kim,</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=#000000></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=#000000>It appears that I misunderstood your use of
space in iyá 'a' and iyá kap, or else we are having font problems. (Sometimes I
hate computers. Too bad we can't clarify what the other is saying online.) On my
computer the two appear similarly to iya 'a' and iya kap, each with a space in
them and an acute accent over the first a. In this light your
statement, <FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>"Our classifiers are technically
"suffixes" rather than compounds, so they're not written with a word
break"</FONT> is rather confusing. I took the space to indicate that these
were phrases. If the classifiers are suffixes (written without a space), then my
suggestions are "wrong". I'm not saying that particular solutions are right or
wrong. It is more that historical conventions lead the average user to expect
certain formats to indicate certain types of data. Most users would expect "n."
to mean "this word is a noun". Subentries are normally used for complex forms,
not collocations, lexical relations, or
examples.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2>There are different types of
classifiers. In Japanese a classifier is used with numerals (e.g. kami yon-mai
'paper four-CL' (four sheets of paper) where -mai is the classifier for flat
objects). In this case kami is associated with -mai and you might want to
indicate this in your dictionary. But you would not enter 'kami mai' as a
subentry. Similarly we would not enter '(two) head of cattle' '(two) stalks of
celery' '(two) pieces of paper' as subentries in an English dictionary.
Instead we would enter them as lexical relations.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2>However in a Bantu language the
noun class prefixes are obligatory. You can say 'muntu' (mu-ntu 'C1.SG-person')
and 'bantu' (ba-ntu 'C2.PL-person'), but you can't say 'ntu' by itself. So we
give muntu as the citation form for this word. We would not give ntu as the
citation form and then give muntu and bantu as subentries. So even though mu-
indicates that ntu is in the human class, this is not the same sort of
classifier as the Japanese '-mai' or the English 'head'.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2>You mention that your
classifiers overlap with roots. In that way they are more like the English
'head' than the Japanese '-mai'.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2>If your classifiers are
non-obligatory suffixes, then you are probably right in making them subentries,
especially if they can result in a change of meaning. In that way they are more
like derivational affixes. But we are talking about a number of very different
phenomena. I would need to know more how your classifiers are operating
morphologically and semantically to be able to say more.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2>Hopefully we can bring a little
more clarity to this discussion.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=288435102-16062005><FONT size=2>Ron Moe</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Kim
Blewett<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 15, 2005 10:05 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Lexicog] Dictionary
of a language with classifiers<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format --><FONT
size=2><FONT face=Arial></FONT>
<P dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>In response to Ron's comments about
noun+classifier combinations,</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>The problem with Kim's solution (below) is that using \se makes it
appear<BR>that iyá 'a' and iyá kap are phrasal lexemes. They are not, if I
understand<BR>you correctly. Also using \se causes each sense to begin a new
line:<BR><BR><STRONG><FONT size=3>iyá</FONT></STRONG> n. stone.<BR>
<STRONG>iyá 'a'</STRONG> n. stone.<BR> <STRONG>iyá kap</STRONG> n.
gravel.<BR><BR>This is not at all what you want. At least it does not
accurately<BR>communicate the nature of iyá 'a' and iyá kap. </P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Actually, this format, beginning
each compound form on a new line and bolding it, is exactly what we want for
Rapoisi. I guess it depends on who your target audience is; we plan to produce
a Rapoisi-English-Tokpisin dictionary for local distribution. However, I don't
see that either of these solutions necessarily implies that these are "phrasal
lexemes." They are forms that need to be easy to locate in a bilingual
dictionary, (1) because the meaning can not always be deduced
completely from the parts, especially for a new learner of the language,
and (2) the correct classifier can not always be predicted for a form.
Consistency in dictionary entries is important, and perhaps an introduction
explaining what certain fields convey/contain, but I was not aware of rules
for how a dictionary is allowed to treat certain forms. A dictionary format
should reflect the structure of the language it's displaying. </FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Our classifiers are technically
"suffixes" rather than compounds, so they're not written with a word
break, but the set of "roots" overlaps somewhat with the set of
"classifiers", which resembles compounding. I have seen languages where
the orthography breaks up phonological words, either compounds or
clitic markers, for ease of reading. Actually, I was not sure, from
Nilson's example, how independent the classifiers in Karo are.</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>Currently you are making each<BR>sense of iyá into a separate
entry:<BR><BR>iyá 'a' n. stone.<BR>iyá kap n. gravel.<BR><BR>This format
also makes it look like these are phrasal lexemes. There are two<BR>possible
formats that would convey the information correctly:<BR><BR>iyá n. 1. iyá
'a' stone. 2. iyá kap gravel.<BR><BR>Or:<BR><BR>iyá n. 1. stone. iyá 'a'. 2.
gravel. iyá kap.<BR><BR>This second format is preferred because, by
tradition, examples of usage and<BR>collocation are placed after the
definition. </P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>This looks good for a dictionary
targeted for linguists, but my feeling is that Rapoisi speakers, or other
PNGans who would like to learn Rapoisi, would be confused by the switching of
position here.</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>However some dictionary<BR>traditions place parts of the paradigm toward
the beginning of the entry:<BR><BR>have v. had, having, has Used as an
auxiliary verb before...<BR><BR>We do the same sort of thing in Bantu
dictionaries to give the plural of<BR>nouns:<BR><BR>muntu n. bantu A person,
someone...</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Your examples here demonstrate
grammatical forms. There is a big difference between these and noun+classifier
forms, which in Rapoisi function as a unit with respect to plural, possessive,
and even can be verbalized. </FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>Unfortunately MDF does not have a vernacular field that occurs between
the<BR>initial fields (\lx \lc \se \ps \sn) and the definition fields (\dv
\de<BR>\dn). Some of us have complained about this. There are some
solutions, but<BR>they all involve modifying the MDF Consistent Changes
tables or modifying<BR>the Word document once MDF has processed the file.
Neither solution is easy.<BR>So I would recommend that you put the
classifier in a lexical function field<BR>and label it as a
classifier:<BR><BR>\lx iyá<BR>\ps n<BR>\sn 1<BR>\de stone<BR>\lf
Classifier<BR>\lv iyá 'a'<BR>\sn 2<BR>\de gravel<BR>\lf Classifier<BR>\lv
iyá kap<BR><BR>You will get the following output (or something very
similar):<BR><BR>iyá n. 1. stone. Classifier: iyá 'a' 2. gravel. Classifier:
iyá kap.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>The main problem I see with using
the lexical field is with reversals. I want the defs of these forms to show up
in a reversed finder list, for the benefit of language learners in the Rapoisi
community. Under \se I can add a \re field. With \lf, I can't sort out
noun+classifier forms from all the other things that \lf contains that do not
need a reversal entry. (It's MDF that wants to see a \re field under \se; if
not using MDF you could probably make the first word of the \de field appear,
or something similar.</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>So, I still feel that for some
languages the Subentry field is the way to go, although Ron's comments are
good and have caused me to think things through more carefully--thanks,
Ron!</FONT></P>
<P dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Kim Blewett</FONT></FONT></P>
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