<html><body>
<br><br>Creative speakers surely cannot be stopped. People frequently revive words which are no longer commonly used simply because they want to enliven their speech. However, that doesn't mean a particular word ceases to be archaic.<br>Let me quote David Crystal: 'An archaism is a feature of an older state of the language <span style="font-style: italic;">which continues to be used while retaining the aura of its past'. </span>(italics mine) (<span style="font-style: italic;">The Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language</span>, p. 185). <br><br>Labelling words in a dictionary is probably the trickiest task a lexicographer is faced with - the word 'perchance' is a good case in point:<br>'old use' - Cambridge International Dictionary of English (1995)<br>'archaic' or 'poetic' - 'The New Collins Dictionary and Thesaurus' (1989)<br>'old use' - 'Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary' (2000)<br>'chiefly poetic or humorous' - 'Longman Dictionary of the English Language'
(1994)<br>'an old-fashioned or literary word' - 'Collins Cobuild' (1990)<br>Is 'archaic' the same as 'old-fashioned'? Are these notios interchangeable? <br>Who should make judgements - how should these judgements be made? Incidentally, the same holds good for such labels as 'spoken', 'informal', 'colloquial', 'slang'... <br><br>Filip<br><br><br><b><i>Fritz Goerling <Fritz_Goerling@sil.org></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name="GENERATOR"> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="351365320-10022006"><font face="Arial" size="3"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">"Obsolete" might go one step further. I have heard it used as a club (or should I say "axe"?)</font></font></span></font></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
class="351365320-10022006">by people who had an axe to grind and who tried to expunge words from the</span></font></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="351365320-10022006">language that did not fit their ideological agenda. Such language engineering usually</span></font></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="351365320-10022006">backfires.</span></font></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="351365320-10022006"></span></font> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span class="351365320-10022006">Fritz Goerling </span></font><br></div> <div></div> <div>It might be worth asking how various people differentiate "archaic" from "obsolete" while we're at it.</div> <div> </div> <div>Andrew Dunbar.<br><br> </div> <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 2/10/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Fritz Goerling</b> <<a
href="mailto:Fritz_Goerling@sil.org">Fritz_Goerling@sil.org</a>> wrote:</span> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma"><font size="2"><span></span>G<span><font face="Arial" size="3">ood point, Phil, </font></span></font></font></div> <div><font face="Tahoma"><font size="2"><span><font face="Arial" size="3"></font></span></font></font> </div> <div><font face="Tahoma"><font size="2"><span><font face="Arial" size="3">Such a judgment can kill a word. There is also the possibility of resurrecting or rejuvenating a word labelled</font></span></font></font></div> <div><font face="Tahoma"><font size="2"><span><font face="Arial" size="3">"archaic." Who can hinder creative speakers from doing so?</font></span></font></font></div><span class="sg"> <div><font face="Tahoma"><font size="2"><span><font face="Arial"
size="3"></font></span></font></font> </div> <div><font face="Tahoma"><font size="2"><span><font face="Arial" size="3">Fritz Goerling</font></span></font></font></div></span> <div><span class="e" id="q_1095565aa67eb30a_2"> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><br><br> </div> <div></div>thanks Filip, Jimm, I was also hoping to know who was making the judgement of a term being 'archaic' - the lexicographer or the speaker consultant(s) or speech community. <div><br> </div> <div>qo'c (later), </div> <div>Phil Cash Cash <div><br> <div> <div>On Feb 10, 2006, at 1:04 AM, Filip Rudolf wrote:</div><br> <blockquote type="cite"><br><br><b><i><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:goodtracks@peoplepc.com" target="_blank">goodtracks@peoplepc.com</a></i></b> wrote: <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;"><tt>I use "archaic" as a term that has documented use
in past generations, but <br>is no longer used or known by present day speakers. There may be persons <br>who recall the term however.<br>I use "old" for those terms that may be heard from and used by a few <br>persons, but are not the usual word or pronunciation of a word that is <br>current.<br>Jimm<br>----- Original Message ----- <br>From: "phil cash cash" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:pasxapu@DAKOTACOM.NET" target="_blank">pasxapu@DAKOTACOM.NET</a>><br>To: <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"> lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</a>><br>Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 3:03 PM<br>Subject: [Lexicog] archaic entries<br><br><br>> Hi everybody,<br>><br>> I just wanted to ask for some input on the intent or meaning behind <br>> defining a dictionary entry as
"archaic."<br>><br>> Thanks in advance,<br>><br>> Phil Cash Cash<br>> University of Arizona<br><br><no longer used or known by present day speakers> Well, perhaps <no longer used> would suffice. Forms such as 'thou art' or 'thou shalt' are no longer used but are surely understood by educated speakers. It would be interesting to have a closer look at such labels as 'old', 'old use', 'archaic', 'obsolescent' or 'obsolete' as the the distinctions between them are not clear-cut. <br><br>Filip<br><br></tt></blockquote><br><br><br> <div>__________________________________________________<br>Do You Yahoo!?<br>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around <br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://mail.yahoo.com/" target="_blank">http://mail.yahoo.com</a> <br><br></div> <div style="margin-bottom: 1px; width: 500px; color: rgb(144, 144, 144);
text-align: right;"><tt>SPONSORED LINKS</tt> </div> <table bgcolor="#e0ecee" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="13" width="500"> <tbody> <tr valign="top"> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+kits&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=0qmh_LxwxM-rDbioCJFS6Q" target="_blank">Science kits</a></tt> </td> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+education&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=Excj8HDtQcq_AebnkeeGWA" target="_blank">Science education</a></tt> </td>
<td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+kit+for+kid&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=TKv0Pos6NUkT3-2vw9y_0g" target="_blank">Science kit for kid</a></tt> </td></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Cognitive+science&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=4LhN5e-euwMZLUgPOsoG9Q" target="_blank">Cognitive science</a></tt> </td> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+education+supply&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=I_uaOJi7S2ku24m3Ad-zTQ" target="_blank">Science education supply</a></tt> </td> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=My+first+science+kit&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=XpTpH51aY4wda-bBFInovQ" target="_blank">My first science kit</a></tt> </td></tr></tbody></table><br> <div style="width: 500px; color: rgb(144, 144, 144); text-align: center;"> <hr style="border-bottom: 1px none; width: 500px; text-align: left;"> <tt>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS</tt> </div><br> <ul><tt></tt>
<li type="square"><tt>Visit your group "<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist" target="_blank">lexicographylist</a>" on the web.<br></tt><tt></tt><tt></tt> </li><li type="square"><tt>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" target="_blank">lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br></tt><tt></tt><tt></tt> </li><li type="square"><tt>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" target="_blank">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt> </li></ul><br> <div style="width: 500px; color: rgb(144, 144, 144); text-align: center;"> <hr style="border-bottom: 1px none; width: 500px; text-align: left;">
</div><br></blockquote></div><br> </div></div><br><br> <div style="margin-bottom: 1px; width: 500px; color: rgb(144, 144, 144); text-align: right;"><tt>SPONSORED LINKS</tt> </div> <table bgcolor="#e0ecee" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="13" width="500"> <tbody> <tr valign="top"> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+kits&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=0qmh_LxwxM-rDbioCJFS6Q" target="_blank">Science kits</a></tt> </td> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+education&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=Excj8HDtQcq_AebnkeeGWA" target="_blank">Science education</a></tt> </td> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+kit+for+kid&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=TKv0Pos6NUkT3-2vw9y_0g" target="_blank">Science kit for kid</a></tt> </td></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Cognitive+science&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=4LhN5e-euwMZLUgPOsoG9Q" target="_blank">Cognitive science</a></tt> </td> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+education+supply&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=I_uaOJi7S2ku24m3Ad-zTQ" target="_blank">Science education supply</a></tt> </td> <td style="width: 25%;"><tt><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=My+first+science+kit&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=XpTpH51aY4wda-bBFInovQ" target="_blank">My first science kit</a></tt> </td></tr></tbody></table><br> <div style="width: 500px; color: rgb(144, 144, 144); text-align: center;"> <hr style="border-bottom: 1px none; width: 500px; text-align: left;"> <tt>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS</tt> </div><br> <ul><tt> </tt><li type="square"><tt> Visit your group "<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist" target="_blank">lexicographylist</a>" on the web.<br> </tt> <tt> </tt></li><li type="square"><tt> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" target="_blank"> lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br> </tt> <tt> </tt></li><li type="square"><tt> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" target="_blank">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt> </li></ul><br> <div style="width: 500px; color: rgb(144, 144, 144); text-align: center;"> <hr style="border-bottom: 1px none; width: 500px; text-align: left;"> </div></span></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><a href="http://linguaphile.sf.net">http://linguaphile.sf.net</a><br> </blockquote><br><p>
<hr size=1> Yahoo! Mail<br>
<a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/pmall2/*http://photomail.mail.yahoo.com">Use Photomail</a> to share photos without annoying attachments.
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<br><br>
<div style="width:500px; text-align:right; margin-bottom:1px; color:#909090;">
<tt>SPONSORED LINKS</tt>
</div>
<table bgcolor=#e0ecee cellspacing="13" cellpadding="0" width=500px>
<tr valign=top>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+kits&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=0qmh_LxwxM-rDbioCJFS6Q">Science kits</a></tt>
</td>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+education&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=Excj8HDtQcq_AebnkeeGWA">Science education</a></tt>
</td>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+kit+for+kid&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=TKv0Pos6NUkT3-2vw9y_0g">Science kit for kid</a></tt>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign=top>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Cognitive+science&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=4LhN5e-euwMZLUgPOsoG9Q">Cognitive science</a></tt>
</td>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Science+education+supply&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=I_uaOJi7S2ku24m3Ad-zTQ">Science education supply</a></tt>
</td>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=My+first+science+kit&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+kit+for+kid&w4=Cognitive+science&w5=Science+education+supply&w6=My+first+science+kit&c=6&s=145&.sig=XpTpH51aY4wda-bBFInovQ">My first science kit</a></tt>
</td>
</tr>
</tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;">
<hr style="border-bottom:1px; width:500px; text-align:left;">
<tt>YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS</tt>
</div>
<br>
<ul>
<tt><li type=square> Visit your group "<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist">lexicographylist</a>" on the web.<br> </tt>
<tt><li type=square> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br> <a href="mailto:lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br> </tt>
<tt><li type=square> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.</tt>
</ul>
<br>
<div style="text-align:center; color:#909090; width:500px;">
<hr style="border-bottom:1px; width:500px; text-align:left;">
</div>
</br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</body></html>