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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is similar to an issue that has come up in the
Philippines regarding the sorting of the digraph "ng". </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>The way it is typically done is to put "ng" in the sort order as a unit,
so it is handled as a digraph. And for purposes of linguistic
analysis, that's probably what is needed. </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>But one of our teams wrote up a report on a difficulty that came up with
people not being able to find words where they looked for them when this "ng"
was sorted as a digraph in print. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>Then one of our
consultants did a survey in his language area to test this out, and came to the
same conclusion - that <SPAN lang=EN-GB>for the purposes of sorting words
alphabetically in vernacular dictionaries in the Philippines, <EM>"</EM><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><EM>ng"</EM> needs to be treated as a sequence of two
letters, <EM>"n"</EM> followed by <EM>"g"</EM>, rather than as a
digraph.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB><SPAN
lang=EN-GB></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB><SPAN lang=EN-GB>The same
thing is routinely done in English dictionaries. In the ones I've checked,
digraphs such as "ng", "th", "ch", and "sh" are alphabetized as sequences of
individual letters, not as digraphs. </SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=EN-GB><SPAN lang=EN-GB>The quote below from Sidney Landau says
"Dictionaries usually alphabetize letter by letter rather than word by word".
Maybe we could add to that, "Dictionaries usually alphabetize letter by
letter rather than phoneme by phoneme".</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB><SPAN
lang=EN-GB></SPAN></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB><SPAN
lang=EN-GB></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB><SPAN lang=EN-GB>Allan
Johnson</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB><SPAN
lang=EN-GB></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB><SPAN
lang=EN-GB></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wen-paula_jones@sil.org href="mailto:wen-paula_jones@sil.org">Paula
Jones</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 10, 2006 8:55
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Lexicog] Sort order
problem</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Wayne & Greg, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am sorry I don't have time to read all of the
correspondence carefully. I will just add the following - </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT
face="Cob-u SILCharis">From <U>Dictionaries: the art and craft of
lexicography</U>, Sidney Landau </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT
face="Cob-u SILCharis">p.107<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><o:p><FONT face="Cob-u SILCharis"
size=2> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT
face="Cob-u SILCharis"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">ALPHABETIZATION - Dictionaries usually
alphabetize letter by letter rather than word by word. They place <EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Cob-u SILCharis'; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">power,
powerful, </SPAN></EM>and <EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Cob-u SILCharis'; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">power of
attorney </SPAN></EM>in that order, whereas a word-by-word arrangement would
place <EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Cob-u SILCharis'; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">power of
attorney </SPAN></EM>before <EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Cob-u SILCharis'; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">powerful.
</SPAN></EM>Letter-by-letter arrangement has the great virtue that readers
need not know whether a compound is spelled as one word, as a hyphenated word,
or as two words. Since usage is often divided about compounds — witness
<EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Cob-u SILCharis'; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">database
</SPAN></EM>and <EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Cob-u SILCharis'; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">data base,
e-mail </SPAN></EM>and <EM><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Cob-u SILCharis'; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">email</SPAN></EM>
— and is constantly shifting, the ability to locate such terms is of
considerable practical importance.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT
face="Cob-u SILCharis"><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT size=+0><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><U></U></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Arial Unicode MS'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT
face=Arial size=2>When I read this, even though it is written regarding
English dictionaries, it gave me the incentive to ask about changing the sort
order for Eduria & Barasano, Eastern Tucanoan, which has a confusing mixup
of word-breaks that we have tried to make more consistent based on meaning
(i.e. if the part separated by a space has no meaning, it is combined) that
the speakers agree with most of the time but there are cases where they want
the space based on the phonetics. This inconsistency caused us to lean toward
a sort order that ignores the spaces or work breaks. Also, the subentry system
the speakers desire also fed into this, but I won't give the details on that.
When I asked about changing, I was told to put a _ where there was a space /
word break in the \lx field and to add it to the sort order properties to be
ignored. I am sure it is not the best way to do it (did some by hand and
others in Note Pad), but this change has caused the Eduria & Barasana to
be much happier with the sort order, though that may be the change in the
subentry organization that was done at the same time. Paula S.
Jones</FONT></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US><FONT
face="Cob-u SILCharis" size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US><FONT
face="Cob-u SILCharis" size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=wayne_leman@sil.org href="mailto:wayne_leman@sil.org">Wayne
Leman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 09, 2006 1:23
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Lexicog] Sort order
problem</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Greg, FWIW, I don't know if there is any
lexicographical rationale for computer sort orders, such as having
<space> float to the top. There's probably some rationale, but
whatever it is comes from computer people. As you probably know, having
<space> and punctuation marks and number before letters is what is
called an ASCII sort, which just refers to the default way that computers
sort. Of course, they have been programmed to sort that way. (Side thought:
If people stopping programming that way for computers, they would be out of
sorts, so to speak, of course!!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm just glad that we can modify sort orders as
much as we can with some lexicography programs. It would be too bad if we
always had to accept whatever order computer sorted words into.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm not out of sorts now, but out of
time,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>it's time to hit the sack,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wayne</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-----<BR>Wayne Leman<BR>Cheyenne website: <A
href="http://www.geocities.com/cheyenne_language">http://www.geocities.com/cheyenne_language</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wayne,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have not gotten either Toolbox or
LexiquePro to ignore spaces. However I am also interested in understanding
the rationale for adopting a given sort order.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I assume Toolbox and LexiquePro users usually
sort with spaces sorted to the top of the list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thus the order: child, child care, child
restraint, childish, children.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This rationale is that entries involving
the simplest form of the word take precedence over
others.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have been advised to sort ignoring
the space.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thus the sort order: child, child care,
childish, children, child restraint.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The rationale for this order is that it is
strictly alphabetical. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Another possibility is too sort with the
space at the bottom.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thus the sort order: child, childish,
children, child care, child restraint.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The rationale for this order is that
all morphological forms of the head word take precedence over phrasal
forms.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Is there a preferred rationale and sort
order in the world of lexicography?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards, Greg</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
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