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<div>Dear David,</div> <div> The word did exist halfway through the sixties in the standard DRAE. It was then gradually replaced by DOBLE and is now only heard of in the way that you mentioned very accurately in the first three lines of your note. I perhaps should have insisted on the problem of borrowing for the sake of borrowing when there is word that already covers the meaning required. I have been told that Icelandic - if that is the correct word for the language spoken in Iceland - has chosen to give names to all that is new by using existing possibilities and not by simply lifting as it were the word from another language. Are you familiar with the change in meaning of ALGIDO in the last 30 odd years?<BR><BR><B><I>David Tuggy <david_tuggy@sil.org></I></B> escribió:</div> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <div>(¿)SOSIAS? I'd never heard of it, and it isn't in at least one good online Spanish-English dictionary I consulted. The Real Academia does have it, however, and the Pequeño Larousse has it, but only in its historical/biographical section. It is a borrowing just as much as the sense of "doble" that you mention, coming from a character in a play by Plautus (later echoed by Molière). To me your example would be like saying it was somehow illegitimate to have taken the word "legislator" from French or Latin, because the true English word would be "solon".<BR><BR>People do, as you note, tend to write the way they talk, and in both talking and writing they readily adapt structures from neighboring languages, even when they already have a structure with similar
meaning and usage potential. English could use "Sosias" as a doppelgänger for "double", and I would in fact be surprised if no English-speakers ever have. <BR><BR>English would be totally unrecognizable if you took out all the borrowed forms from it, and it is by no means the only language on earth of which that is true. More generally, the only language that maintains its purity is a dead language. <BR><BR>--David Tuggy<BR><BR>Michael Nicholas wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid20060621132302.533.qmail@web25105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com type="cite"> <DIV>Dear Fritz,</DIV> <DIV> The last bit got mixed what with being in a hurry etc. So I have rewritten it. What I am trying to get at is the following. The predominant position of English means that other languages are heavily influenced by it:direct loan words, adaptations or using words that are apparently the same but are not in fact. If a modern language is used worldwide and then decides to write dictionaries based on a
corpus, and if the corpus is based primarily on the written word, and if the writers are heavily influenced by English, then we will end up with a language community using words/constructions/that are really not a part of their language. EXAMPLE: Spanish has a word - SOSIAS. Halfway through the sixties the Spanish word DOBLE began to be used instead of SOSIAS because it existed and to many it must have seemed the Spanish version of DOUBLE. It now has that meaning!<BR><BR><B><I>Michael Nicholas <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:mrnicholas007@yahoo.es"><mrnicholas007@yahoo.es></A></I></B> escribió:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <DIV> <DIV>Dear Fritz,</DIV> <DIV> I think the song in question mentions how brave and honest and intelligent and honourable we English are - while underlining that our most typical trait is that most English of virtues - MODESTY.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV> <DIV> The point I wanted to make is that this soccer/football debate is about how language community B gets language community A speakers to refer to the achievements of A in the language of community B. The next step is for A speakers to use B language instead of their own language in certain situations - (See the Jaques Tati film The Holiday of M. Hulot(?))<BR><BR><B><I>Fritz Goerling <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:Fritz_Goerling@sil.org"><Fritz_Goerling@sil.org></A></I></B> escribió:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <DIV> <DIV class=Section1> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Sure, John, reminds me of the comic song with the refrain <O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE:
12pt">“</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">The English the English the English are best <BR>I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.”<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Well, if <ST1><ST1>England</ST1></ST1> is the mother country of modern* football, others have refined<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">the game (I’ll send you something funny off-list, showing different football<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">tactics
which confirm our stereotypes about each other).<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Let’s keep our eye on the ball,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fritz<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">*Maybe we can start a discussion about what is “modern”. <O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV id=ygrp-mlmsg> <DIV id=ygrp-msg> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">John Roberts wrote:<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thanks, Michael. And the British can do this too. See this website:<BR><BR><A href="http://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/BestifBrits.htm">http://www.historic<WBR>-uk.com/CultureU<WBR>K/BestifBrits.<WBR>htm</A><BR><BR>... but I think we have taken our eye off the ball.<BR><BR><BR><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=white size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: white"><!--End group email --></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><!--End group email --></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <HR SIZE=1> <BR><FONT face=Verdana size=-2>LLama Gratis a cualquier
PC del Mundo.<BR>Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.<BR><A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/es/tagline/messenger/*http://es.voice.yahoo.com/">http://es.voice.yahoo.com</A></FONT> </DIV><!--End group email --></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <div></div> <HR SIZE=1> <BR><FONT face=Verdana size=-2>LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.<BR>Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.<BR><A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/es/tagline/messenger/*http://es.voice.yahoo.com/">http://es.voice.yahoo.com</A></FONT> <SPAN style="COLOR: white" width="1"></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <div></div></DIV><!--End group email --></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>
<hr size=1><br><font face="Verdana" size="-2">LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.<br>Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.<br><a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/es/tagline/messenger/*http://es.voice.yahoo.com/">http://es.voice.yahoo.com</a></font>
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