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<DIV>Good morning, Fritz,</DIV> <DIV> We have wide which gives us widen, fat gives us fatten so big gives us ..........? No need for "em" . Going back to the word mother. The very fact that you enclose certain words in speech marks (new meaning for an established word) reveals that the base word is not of the same rank as the offshoots. (See plastic tree/wooden tree) And the uses of spiritual and marry - in a nautical sense are metaphoric rather than literal. This is not the case with biological mother. By the way, mother - in -law in Spanish is <STRONG>madre política</STRONG>. The mind boggles. Finally a plea for help in terminology from all you lexicographers out there. What term is used to define a word in language A that has taken on a meaning from language B because both words appear to be virtually identical. An example <STRONG><EM>Ignorar</EM></STRONG> looks like <EM><U><STRONG>Ignore </STRONG></U></EM>but
<STRONG><EM>Ignorar</EM></STRONG> - about thirty or more years ago did not mean "not to pay any attention to/to cold shoulder" Now it does. This tagging on of new meanings to the base word is "semantic expansion" "semantic colonising" "Semantic contamination/shift" ? </DIV> <DIV>Michael<BR><BR><B><I>Fritz Goerling <Fritz_Goerling@sil.org></I></B> escribió:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><!-- Network content --> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <DIV><!-- Network content --> <DIV class=Section1> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Buenas tardes,
<ST1>Micha</ST1>el,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Well, if we have “biological” mother, then we can have “spiritual” mother.<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I was thinking of a female historical figure who was both “First Lady” and “spiritual mother”<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(mother of the nation) and thought of Evita Perón. One thing is to tag on a modifier, another is to attach new meanings to a base word or redefine it or “embiggen” it (to use the new term submitted to the list today).<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV
class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Shall we discuss “mother-in-law” next? ;-)<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Fritz<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV id=ygrp-mlmsg> <DIV id=ygrp-msg> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dear Fritz,<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> I think the problem is one of a basic word -
mother. Any differences, like foster, step etc are tagged on to the word in English. What is happening here is that the word itself is nowmodified by "biological" and thus it is not the base word just another variant. It is rather like a company that manufactures plastic trees talking about plastic tress and wooden trees. !<O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><ST1><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Micha</SPAN></FONT></ST1>el<BR><BR><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Fritz Goerling <Fritz_Goerling@<WBR>sil.org></SPAN></I></B> escribió:<O></O></DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1pt solid"><!-- Network content --><!-- Network content --><ST1> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><ST1><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Micha</SPAN></FONT></ST1><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR:
black"></ST1>el,</SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV><O></O></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O>I am interested in the question to what extent language shapes (our perception of) society or the other way round. That is the old Sapir-Whorff hypothesis. I agree with the word “to shape”, but would reject a stronger word like “to determine.” How far can language- engineering go, what power do dictionary-makers or politicians have to impose language use?<O></O></SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O>Your example of “madre biológica” makes me think about what is a prototypical “mother.”<O></O></SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:
Arial">What is evoked in our mind by the stimulus “mother?” I think it is universally valid that the mother is sacred. From the religious point of view, Jews, Christians and Muslims might think of “Eve”? For some it is “Mary”? Adherents of non-monotheistic faiths or atheists might have other ideas of an Über-mother.<O></O></SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If we associate ideas of “caring, nurturing” with a mother, than a caring female foster parent deserves more to ! be called “mother” than an uncaring, callous “biological mother.”<O></O></SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In German we call such a cruel mother “Rabenmutter” (raven mother). Bert Brecht, the German playwright wrote a play entitled “Mutter Courage”, the
model of a very committed, courageous woman. A great motherly type of woman might be called the “mother of the nation.” Why can one say in English “mother church” but not “she mothered a movement?”<O></O></SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Why do we say in German “Muttersprache” (mother tongue) but not “Mutterland” (we say “Vaterland” = fatherland)? <O></O></SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">What uses of “m! other” have to go into a contemporary dictionary which claims to reflect usage? “Fatherhood” and “motherhood” (and other traditional family terms like “husband” which we discussed already) are being redefined in certain circles. Will these redefinitions make it into a dictionary of general usage or rather be found in a
“politically correct” dictionary which, when the political climate changes, will be a thing of the past?<O></O></SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O></O>Fritz Goerling<O></O></SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV></DIV><O></O><! DIV><ST1> <DIV id=ygrp-mlmsg> <DIV id=ygrp-msg> <DIV id=ygrp-text> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><ST1><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Micha</SPAN></FONT></ST1><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></ST1>el Nicholas wrote<O></O></SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O></O> The widescale tagging of new meanings to old words is I think a sign of a new style of prescriptive lexicography based on political correctness. If a dictionary claims to
portray what a word means according to popularity of use, then it is open to all sorts of changes from pressure groups and interested parties. I believe that language shapes our perception of society. At this rate we should start thinking, as behoves people interested in lexicograp! hy, in coming up with a list of neutral terms. Spanish seems to be making up for lost time when it comes to new meanings added to existing words. We have "madre biológica" which is a type of mother, i.e. the one who actually gave birth to the child as opposed to, I imagine, mothers who don't give birth to a child.<BR><BR><BR><BR><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><O></O> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV><!--End group email --><!--End group email --> <DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <O></O></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal
style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1> </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.<BR>Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.<BR><A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/es/tagline/messenger/*http:/es.voice.yahoo.com/">http://es.voice.<WBR>yahoo.com</A></SPAN></FONT><O></O></DIV></DIV></DIV><!--End group email --></DIV> <DIV></DIV></DIV><!--End group email --></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><p>
<hr size=1><br><font face="Verdana" size="-2">LLama Gratis a cualquier PC del Mundo.<br>Llamadas a fijos y móviles desde 1 céntimo por minuto.<br><a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/es/tagline/messenger/*http://es.voice.yahoo.com/">http://es.voice.yahoo.com</a></font>
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