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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>David—<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I like your examples. Now I know a little
more why you are struggling with this issue. (I’m struggling too with
some of the theoretical aspects.) Your example, </span></font><font size=2
color=blue face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial Unicode MS";color:blue'>Tiwé kò'w la!</span></font><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> is a nice illustration of a particular kind of expression. I ran
into this sort of thing when thinking of example words in various domains. In
fact a number of domains have specific lexical items for the imperative. The
domain ‘Leave’ is one such: ‘Go away! Get! Get out of here! Beat
it!’ The domain ‘Stop’ likewise has imperatives such as ‘Halt!’
We can use ‘leave’ and ‘stop’ in the imperative, just
as most words can be used in the imperative. But these examples are not normal
imperatives. We could debate whether ‘Get!’ is merely an example of
usage or requires special handling. (I can’t think of a declarative sentence
using ‘get’ in the sense ‘leave a place’. I have to use
the phrasal verbs ‘get out’ or ‘get away’.) ‘Go
away!’ and ‘Get out of here!’ can possibly be interpreted as
literal. ‘Beat it!’ is a more clear example of an idiom. But all of
these expressions have something in common—they are the normal ways in
which someone tells someone to leave (especially when one is angry). I don’t
think any of them is predictable (at least for an outsider). The same thing
strikes me for your example, “Remove yourself (from) there!” It
sounds an awful lot like an idiom. Yes, you can make sense of it from the
parts. But it isn’t predictable. Maybe this is another test for
idiomaticity (if that’s a word).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Your other example of ‘take patience’
is a very nice example of a conceptual metaphor. Idioms based on conceptual
metaphors are also unpredictable in form and meaning. Greek shares a lot of
idioms with English, based on the same conceptual metaphor, but often differing
in meaning. In both Greek and English we can ‘give love’, ‘receive
love’, and ‘have love’. But we normally do not say ‘take
love’. Both Greek and English have a tendency to nominalize character
traits and behavioral actions. The underlying conceptual metaphor is something
like, ‘Love/hope/etc is a thing that you can have’. So you can ‘have
lots of love’ or ‘lack love’. My guess is that there is some
similar conceptual metaphor in St. Lucian Creole that is the basis for ‘take
patience’. Conceptual metaphors give rise to both idioms and “metaphorical”
secondary senses of words. Whether or not such things are ‘idioms’
depends on our definition of idiom. It may be that ‘take patience’
should be handled under a metaphorical secondary meaning of ‘take’.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Perhaps it would be worth quoting David
Crystal:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>idiom(atic) A term used in grammar and lexicology
to refer to a sequence of words which is semantically and often syntactically
restricted, so that they function as a single unit. From a semantic viewpoint,
the meanings of the individual words cannot be summed to produce the meaning of
the ‘idiomatic’ expression as a whole. From a syntactic viewpoint,
the words often do not permit the usual variability they display in other
contexts, e.g. ‘it’s raining cats and dogs’ does not permit ‘*it’s
raining a cat and a dog/dogs and cats’, etc. Because of their lack of
internal contrastivity, some linguists refer to idioms as ‘ready-made
utterances’. An alternative terminology refers to idioms as ‘habitual
collocations’. A point which has attracted considerable discussion is the
extent to which degrees and kinds of idiomaticness can be established: some
idioms do permit a degree of internal change, and are somewhat more literal in
meaning than others (e.g. ‘it’s worth his while/the job will be
worth my while’, etc.). [<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Crystal</st1:place></st1:City>
1985:152]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>From this I take it that there is more
than one criteria for classifying something as an idiom, and that there are
several parameters that exhibit a range of variability.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ron Moe<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName> [mailto:<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName>] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>David Frank<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, December 06, 2006
1:03 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Lexicog] Re: lexical
phrase</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div id=ygrp-mlmsg>
<div style='float:left;z-index:1' id=ygrp-msg>
<div id=ygrp-text>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS"'>I don't have a problem with making a
dictionary entry for "on the other hand," but my question is whether
it is a lexeme in and of itself. I would not consider everything necessarily a
lexeme that I would make a subentry in a dictionary. (I think I said
"minor entry" recently, but according to the way I use these terms, I
should have said "subentry.")</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS"'>I will give some examples from our
dictionary of St. Lucian Creole (Kwéyòl). We had an entry for <font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>tiwé</span></font> because it is a lexeme meaning 'to
remove.' Under the entry for <font color=blue><span style='color:blue'>tiwé</span></font>,
we listed <font color=blue><span style='color:blue'>Tiwé kò'w la!</span></font>
as meaning "Go away!" If you wanted to know how to express
English "Go away!" in Kwéyòl, you would not use words meaning
either "go" or "away," so we made a subentry under <font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'>tiwé</span></font> that shows that to say
"Go away!" in Kwéyòl one would literally say "Remove yourself
(from) there!" That doesn't mean to me that <font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>Tiwé kò'w la!</span></font> is a lexeme in Kwéyòl.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS"'>Also in the Kwéyòl dictionary, we have
the word <font color=blue><span style='color:blue'>pasyans</span></font>
meaning 'patience.' Under the entry for <font color=blue><span
style='color:blue'>pasyans</span></font>, we have a subentry <font
color=blue><span style='color:blue'>pwan pasyans</span></font>, which tells
the English reader of the Kwéyòl dictionary that in Kwéyòl, you don't
"have patience," but rather you "take patience". That
doesn't mean to me that <font color=blue><span style='color:blue'>pwan pasyans</span></font>
is an idiom. Since this is a Kwéyòl-English dictionary, what we listed as
subentries is based on the perspective of an English speaker studying Kwéyòl
and the collocations the English speaker would consider natural. I don't think
that every time you have a collocation that is natural in one language but not
in another, that necessarily means you are dealing with an idiom. So
I don't think that everything that you might make into a subentry in a dictionary
is necessarily a lexeme. Note that in our dictionary of St. Lucian Creole, we
didn't list any phrases as stand-alone entries. All phrases that we included
were included as part of a major entry.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS"'>However, if we decide that "on the
other hand" is an idiom in English, then I will accept that it should also
be called a lexeme, though it seems to me that some lexemes are more
semantically complex than others.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Arial Unicode MS"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Unicode MS"'>-- David Frank</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;
margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:dr_john_roberts@sil.org" title="dr_john_roberts@sil.org">John
Roberts</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com"
title="lexicographylist@yahoogroups.com">lexicographylist@<wbr>yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Wednesday,
December 06, 2006 1:01 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [Lexicog] Re:
lexical phrase<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks, Sebastian. I wanted to clarify what was meant by compositional
and non-compositional. This is how an idiom is defined in wikipedia:<br>
<br>
An idiom is an expression whose meaning is not compositional—<wbr>that
is, whose meaning does not follow from the meaning of the individual words of
which it is composed.</span></font><font size=4><span style='font-size:13.5pt'><br>
</span></font><br>
So it follows from this that what Ron is calling a lexical phrase, such as 'on
the one hand' is a type of idiom and therefore a lexeme and therefore should be
entered in a dictionary. <br>
<br>
I haven't been following this discussion too closely, but why is there a
problem in having a dictionary entry for 'on the other hand'? <br>
<br>
John Roberts<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
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