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Mike Maxwell wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid45ABCA9A.1080404@ldc.upenn.edu" type="cite"><snip>
<pre wrap="">I don't think that many--certainly not *most*--verbs have such a
null derivation from a noun, if that's what it is. If I were to go by
the primary meaning and my intuitions (which I'm not sure I would, but
that seems to be the idea here), I would say that for many of the
verb-noun pairs which exist, the relationship in fact goes in the
opposite direction: the noun 'work' seems intuitively less "basic" than
the verb 'work', the noun 'show' less basic than the verb, the noun
'fill' or the adjective 'full' less basic than the verb 'fill', etc.
</pre>
</blockquote>
As someone recently said, "You're singing to the choir".<br>
<blockquote cite="mid45ABCA9A.1080404@ldc.upenn.edu" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
For many other cases, I think any directionality is debatable,
especially in the synchronic sense. And it may be that in fact what's
going on is that roots are basic, having some sort of associated meaning
(perhaps a vague one), and that *both* noun and verb lexemes are derived
(in some sense) from the root. </pre>
</blockquote>
(Strike the harp and join the chorus). Both/and, not either/or, though.
Very likely to be different for different speakers, or vary from time
to time even for the same speaker.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid45ABCA9A.1080404@ldc.upenn.edu" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">But even if that's true, I wouldn't
think of the resulting verb lexemes as having any kind of light verb
relationship with the root--for one thing, there is no light verb,
there's just a verb; for another, there is no noun, just a root with no
category/POS.
In sum, I'm leery of claims about word derivations that depend entirely
on a perceived semantic relationship, with no visible affix or light
verb, and no way other than intuition of deciding the direction of
derivation.
</pre>
</blockquote>
If derivation is understood in the old style as a synchronic process
that produces what would otherwise not exist, or a relationship such
that B would not/could not exist or be used/understood apart from A, it
may be quite rare, and is certainly highly variable. Probably only or
at least mostly for (near-)nonce forms. But there is a lot of room
between saying e.g. "'elbow' exists as a verb only because there is a
noun 'elbow' with a rule to derive the verb; it does not exist on its
own" and saying "the verb 'elbow' is activated in the mind completely
independent of the noun 'elbow'." If I have in mind any such kind of
absolute derivation, I agree entirely with your leeriness. If
derivation is understood as a relationship in which one meaning (and
its uses) is more-or-less likely to strongly activate the other (and
its uses), claims about it are not of such dire importance, and
intuition need not be discounted as evidence for them. In the case of
elbow (and stone, and lots of others) there is certainly a clear
semantic relationship, clearly perceived by most if not all speakers,
and probably fairly uniform intuitions as to the direction of
derivation. <br>
<br>
Re 'light verbs', the notion "strike a blow at (s.o.) with N" or "throw
N so as to strike (s.o.) with it, or "add N" (e.g. salt, plant) or
"remove something" (e.g. weed, bone) are fairly common and natural
sorts of adjustments to make if you want to use a N as a verb.
Similarly "Thing produced by V" (catch, spill) or "reified act/process
of Ving" (work, dive), or "subject or instrument of Ving" (fill, cook)
or "state achieved by Verbing" (full) are common and natural
adjustments if you want to use a V as a N or Adj. Many languages
(including English) have lexical verbs whose meanings are like those
verb-producing adjustments (e.g. "hit", "add", "remove", "do" etc.), so
the semantic effect of the zero derivation is as if one of these
"light" verbs were used. Similarly the effect of the deverbalizing
zero-derivation may be reminiscent of the effect of "light"
nouns/nominalizers/adjectivizers like "-er", "instrument", "agent",
"-ed", etc. This seems to me to be the truth behind the "light verb"
(or generative semantics style) analysis. But that is rather different
from positing that the lexical light verbs are necessarily activated
themselves in the process. <br>
<blockquote cite="mid45ABCA9A.1080404@ldc.upenn.edu" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">
But perhaps we're wandering too far from lexicography...
</pre>
</blockquote>
To me this is central, essential, lexicography. It has to do with the
nature of what we are trying to write (graph) about when we do
lexicography.<br>
<br>
--David Tuggy<br>
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