<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-2" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#330000">
Mike Maxwell wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid45E1095F.9050703@ldc.upenn.edu" type="cite"><snip>
<pre wrap="">
For verbs, infinitives are the usual choice with many (all?) Romance
languages, but that is not necessarily a good choice for other
languages-- and as you remark, many languages do not have an infinitive.
A third person singular present tense is often a good choice, since
again this tends to be the least marked form. A first person singular,
even if it were unmarked, would often be a poor choice, because many
verbs don't have such a form (like the verb 'rain' in most languages).
</pre>
<snip><br>
</blockquote>
There is an old (since 1555 at least) tradition in Nahuatl lexicography
is (to alphabetize by verb roots but) to give as citation form a first
person subject prefix and (if transitive) a third person object. Thus
the verb stem <i>cemmana</i> ‘publish, spread (news)’ is represented
in Molina’s dictionary by the citation form <i>niccemmana</i> (=
ni-k-semmana) ‘I publish it’ or <i>nitlacemmana </i>‘I publish
something/stuff’. Verbs that need a plural subject use a <i>ti</i>-
‘we’ prefix (e.g. <i>ticenuetzi</i> (= tisenwe¢i) ‘we fall together’)
and verbs which necessarily take an inanimate subject (like <i>eeca</i>
(=eʔeka) ‘it (the wind) blow’) take the (zero) third-person singular
subject. Sometimes a verb is cited with a third person (zero) subject
and a first person singular object (<i>nēch</i>-) especially when it
involves an inanimate acting on an animate object.<br>
<br>
I like this for various reasons. One is just to follow an old and
honorable tradition—why not, if it works? Another, perhaps more
important, is that you immediately know if a verb can take a human
subject, or a singular subject, or not. This may not be obvious from
the translation: e.g. if a verb is glossed ‘to blow’, how do you know
it can’t be used of a human blowing as well as the wind blowing? Of
course careful glossing may clarify this. Another reason is that if you
have two third person arguments, it may not be clear which is subject
and which is object. If I give you a verb <i>kipaktia</i>, glossed
‘he/she likes it/him/her’ (or worse, ‘to like’), is the subject the
person feeling the emotion (subject in English) or the person or thing
prompting the emotion (object in English)? It's not easy to tell. But
if the form is <i>nikpaktia</i> and is glossed ‘he/she likes me’ (or <i>nēchpaktia</i>
[me-like] and glossed ‘I like him/her/it’, the way to use and
understand the verb is immediately clear (if you know anything at all
about Nahuatl verbs, anyway. I don't expect it to necessarily be
blindingly obvious to you here on the list, of course ;-) .) There are
a surprising number of cases where this turns out to be useful, where
Nahuatl's way of assigning subjecthood and objecthood isn't obvious to
someone coming from the perspective of another language, and using
first-on-third as the default citation form clears things up nicely.
Again, careful glossing can help, but many times you will otherwise
need an explanatory note to clarify the gloss.<br>
<br>
Similar things happen with some possessed forms and pospositions and
things. If you put in your dictionary the phrase <i>īwan motta</i>
[3PSg-with zero-refl-see] and give its (surprising but correct) gloss
as ‘his/her relative’, it is not clear who is marked where. If you have
<i>nowan motta</i> [me-with zero-refl-see] ‘one to whom I am related’,
or <i>īwan nimotta </i>[3PSg-with I-refl-see] <i> </i>‘my relative,
one who is related to me’ it becomes (at least a bit!) clearer.<br>
<br>
I'm not necessarily recommending this for every other language, but I
think it works well for Nahuatl, and might well for at least some other
languages. In other words, I wouldn't assume that first person singular
forms are necessarily poor choices.<br>
<br>
--David Tuggy<br>
<span width="1" style="color: white;"/>__._,_.___</span>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97476590/grpId=11682781/grpspId=1709195911/msgId=3746/stime=1172386298" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<br><br>
<div style="width:500px; text-align:right; margin-bottom:1px; color:#909090;">
<tt>SPONSORED LINKS</tt>
</div>
<table bgcolor=#e0ecee cellspacing="13" cellpadding="0" width=500px>
<tr valign=top>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMDUyOHYwBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMTE2ODI3ODEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA5MTk1OTExBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTcyMzg2Mjk4?t=ms&k=Science+lab+equipment&w1=Science+lab+equipment&w2=Life+science+research&w3=Life+sciences&w4=Life+science+product&w5=Life+science+company&c=5&s=125&g=0&.sig=nhMObThtY0u3dC_zdOTU4g">Science lab equipment</a></tt>
</td>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkODQyYW9wBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTE2ODI3ODEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA5MTk1OTExBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTcyMzg2Mjk4?t=ms&k=Life+science+research&w1=Science+lab+equipment&w2=Life+science+research&w3=Life+sciences&w4=Life+science+product&w5=Life+science+company&c=5&s=125&g=0&.sig=Iijeys-hhXush45nkHI1fw">Life science research</a></tt>
</td>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZ2YxdnBsBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzMEZ3JwSWQDMTE2ODI3ODEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA5MTk1OTExBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTcyMzg2Mjk4?t=ms&k=Life+sciences&w1=Science+lab+equipment&w2=Life+science+research&w3=Life+sciences&w4=Life+science+product&w5=Life+science+company&c=5&s=125&g=0&.sig=BzQVPANazGzLMf63F0AEwA">Life sciences</a></tt>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign=top>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbjRrZnZmBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzQEZ3JwSWQDMTE2ODI3ODEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA5MTk1OTExBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTcyMzg2Mjk4?t=ms&k=Life+science+product&w1=Science+lab+equipment&w2=Life+science+research&w3=Life+sciences&w4=Life+science+product&w5=Life+science+company&c=5&s=125&g=0&.sig=Zt0u9C_2RYCHGrro11mmsA">Life science product</a></tt>
</td>
<td style="width:25%;">
<tt><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJkaGtlaTFoBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBF9wAzUEZ3JwSWQDMTE2ODI3ODEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA5MTk1OTExBHNlYwNzbG1vZARzdGltZQMxMTcyMzg2Mjk4?t=ms&k=Life+science+company&w1=Science+lab+equipment&w2=Life+science+research&w3=Life+sciences&w4=Life+science+product&w5=Life+science+company&c=5&s=125&g=0&.sig=4SCAy6h9Eoo0zrSnqnWSeg">Life science company</a></tt>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<br>
<div style="font-family: verdana; font-size: 77%; border-top: 1px solid #666; padding: 5px 0;" >
Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnb2U2N2RnBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMTcyMzg2Mjk4">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:lexicographylist-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:lexicographylist-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Fully Featured">Switch to Fully Featured</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexicographylist;_ylc=X3oDMTJlazJhcmFhBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzExNjgyNzgxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwOTE5NTkxMQRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTE3MjM4NjI5OA--">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use
</a> |
<a href="mailto:lexicographylist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">
Unsubscribe
</a>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<span style="color: white;"/>__,_._,___</span>
</body>
</html>